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At 7/10/08 09:05 PM, Ferris95 wrote:

Alright well, do you think that people who make music artificialy don't spend hours and hours trying to get better? Take B0unc3 for example. He was consumed with music. He would spend days trying to perfect his songs. Is that not effort?

If B0unc3 puts that much effort into his music then kudos to him.
He's a musician, a very reputable one. But if you use, say, Ejay to make a 13 second loop and you get 4.80 as score then shame on you and those who voted highly.

Ok riddle me this then: Kanye West. A talented musician right? Well for many of his songs he 'samples'. Sampling is when an artist takes a section, maybe 10 seconds maybe a minute, of music and uses it how ever they want. Kanye has perfected this. He constantly takes vocal samples, speeds them up, adds a beat, a melody, etc and makes a song. So are you saying that he isn't a talented musician? On top of that, I'm almost positive that 90% of the so called 'real' instruments you hear in his songs (as well as many mainstream artists today for that matter) are created ARTIFICIALLY!

Kanye aside, Ejay...well their isn't much else to say about it besides that. It's not a very good program in comparison to Fruity Loops or Reason. I would try the demo versions of either if I were you. Making a GOOD song that many NGers enjoy is quite hard.

Also, in the case of the internet. When making music, what do you think most people (especially on NG) want to hear? They want to hear computer (artificial) generated music. So finding a large enough audience on NG who are going to appreciate quote-unquote 'real' music is quite a task.

At 7/10/08 09:11 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

I use fake drums.:)

Thank you Bad-Man for backing up my claim here. You fueled the fire a little. This relates to what I was saying before. Much of what you hear now a-days (mainstream music for example) uses FAKE instruments.

some more

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/1 29471

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/8 407

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/4 3815

At 7/10/08 09:11 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

I use fake drums.:)

OMG me too!!!
But seriously, this argument is overplayed already.
Effort is effort, regardless of how you choose to make your vibrations in the air.
I tend to favor real instruments, because you not only have to learn to play them, but also how to record them using a microphone and a good ear. That, to me, takes more time and effort than setting up a VST, or something like that.
But then again, I have virtually no knowledge of how to use VST's and the like, so I have a biased opinion.

At 7/10/08 09:22 PM, Ferris95 wrote: some more

Ok well, look at where you're getting your sources from. The NG Audio Portal. The Audio Portal, heren AP, was created on the soul fact that users could submit loops or songs so that FLASH artists on NG could use them free of charge.

I haven't ever used any synths, but it makes no difference what medium of musical expression is used; whatever can best convey this music is the best thing to use - whatever sounds the best. If a "real" instrument really is better, than the player of that instrument should work hard to learn to play it to gain that better sound, not for some kind of feeling of superiority over other musicians. Considering that most recordings of real instruments here are not nearly as good as the synth and sampled stuff, I can't see where you are getting your ideas - are you saying your music is better, not because it sounds better, but because you made it with a chunk of wood and metal? I prefer my guitar to anything, but there is so much awesome stuff on NG made in a large variety of ways. Crap is easy to make by any medium, but good, original music is a work of technical skill and creative ideas no matter what method is used as a tool to achieve it.

At 7/10/08 09:19 PM, TMM43 wrote:

At 7/10/08 09:05 PM, Ferris95 wrote:

Alright well, do you think that people who make music artificialy don't spend hours and hours trying to get better? Take B0unc3 for example. He was consumed with music. He would spend days trying to perfect his songs. Is that not effort?

If B0unc3 puts that much effort into his music then kudos to him.
He's a musician, a very reputable one. But if you use, say, Ejay to make a 13 second loop and you get 4.80 as score then shame on you and those who voted highly.

Ok riddle me this then: Kanye West. A talented musician right?

In my honest opinion, wrong.

Well for many of his songs he 'samples'. Sampling is when an artist takes a section, maybe 10 seconds maybe a minute, of music and uses it how ever they want. Kanye has perfected this.

How can something suck as hard as that and be perfected?

He constantly takes vocal samples, speeds them up, adds a beat, a melody, etc and makes a song. So are you saying that he isn't a talented musician?

Yes I am.

On top of that, I'm almost positive that 90% of the so called 'real' instruments you hear in his songs (as well as many mainstream artists today for that matter) are created ARTIFICIALLY!

unfortuantly thats true for the most part. So I stray away from such bands when possible. Local bands are often better anway.

Kanye aside, Ejay...well their isn't much else to say about it besides that. It's not a very good program in comparison to Fruity Loops or Reason. I would try the demo versions of either if I were you. Making a GOOD song that many NGers enjoy is quite hard.

but answer this then:
Most NGers don't really have much of a music virtuoso so just give them a catchy simple beat and something covering it and it goes platnium.

Also, in the case of the internet. When making music, what do you think most people (especially on NG) want to hear? They want to hear computer (artificial) generated music. So finding a large enough audience on NG who are going to appreciate quote-unquote 'real' music is quite a task.

I know. real music is dwindling, I hope to help it revive.

At 7/10/08 09:11 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

I use fake drums.:)

Thank you Bad-Man for backing up my claim here. You fueled the fire a little. This relates to what I was saying before. Much of what you hear now a-days (mainstream music for example) uses FAKE instruments.

Yes but as I posted earliar, Bad-man plays kick-ass guitar, so what if he dosen't use real drums?

At 7/10/08 09:33 PM, TomBanks wrote: WALL OF TEXT!

Please space that out a bit. XD

At 7/10/08 07:27 PM, Ferris95 wrote: But if you make a song that has NO real instruments, why should you get a good score?
It just takes away from REAL musicians if you just use pre-recorded clips that you just edited.
Thats not real music.
So this goes out to all of the REAL musicians with REAL instruements who make REAL music:

I take it you don't really know how movies and tv are scored. Do you think that's a real orchestra playing there every single time? Yeah, right.

You're not understanding what I'm trying to convey in my Kanye example.
Sampling is huge in today's mainstream music. Especially in Rap. (again, ignore the genre and what not, even in Punk music they sample).

As for you staying away from mainstream and going with local bands. You've created a bias.

You're kidding me right? So some of the greats such as B0unce, ParagonX9, Draze, Envy (just to name a few) make simple beats? Have you ever heard of Toby Emerson? He's a Fruity Loops user and he's a professional DJ. Have you seen at least the screen shots of these songs?
Again, this goes back to you creating computer generated music... I would like to see you try and make a song in Fruity Loops or Reason and try to make a name for yourself. Not only on NG but on other sites as well.

Tomorrow is another day, another great discussion. Good night.

At 7/10/08 09:41 PM, Ferris95 wrote:

At 7/10/08 09:33 PM, TomBanks wrote: WALL OF TEXT!

Please space that out a bit. XD

It's funny cause he's the one who's making the most sense.

At 7/10/08 09:43 PM, joshhunsaker wrote:

At 7/10/08 07:27 PM, Ferris95 wrote: But if you make a song that has NO real instruments, why should you get a good score?
It just takes away from REAL musicians if you just use pre-recorded clips that you just edited.
Thats not real music.
So this goes out to all of the REAL musicians with REAL instruements who make REAL music:

I take it you don't really know how movies and tv are scored. Do you think that's a real orchestra playing there every single time? Yeah, right.

Who said that? lol, thats just retarded. And who even mentioned TV or movies? this is the NG AUDIO forums.

Ejay is for beginners, people who are developing their musicianship, end of story.

Things made in Fruity Loops, Reason, etc, things that require you sequence your own amount of material, material that YOU CAME UP WITH, in YOUR HEAD, the SAME place and way a guitar riff or drum beat would be generated, deserves just as much credit. The fake instruments and just a cadaver to translate your musical thoughts and inspirations, just as a guitar or a drumkit is. Either way, your writing music, and if YOU wrote it, its the same amount of output = same amount of credit.

/thread

At 7/10/08 09:49 PM, Ferris95 wrote:

At 7/10/08 09:43 PM, joshhunsaker wrote:

At 7/10/08 07:27 PM, Ferris95 wrote: But if you make a song that has NO real instruments, why should you get a good score?
It just takes away from REAL musicians if you just use pre-recorded clips that you just edited.
Thats not real music.
So this goes out to all of the REAL musicians with REAL instruements who make REAL music:

I take it you don't really know how movies and tv are scored. Do you think that's a real orchestra playing there every single time? Yeah, right.

Who said that? lol, thats just retarded. And who even mentioned TV or movies? this is the NG AUDIO forums.

Well, let's see - I said that. And you basically mentioned tv and movies by saying that everything that isn't recorded live is "not real music". So, if you like, now you can clarify your tremendously assertive blanket statement of music in general to only apply to NG. Would you like to do that?

At 7/10/08 09:50 PM, FarCryDX wrote:
/thread

Winner winner chicken dinner.

At 7/10/08 09:54 PM, TMM43 wrote:

At 7/10/08 09:50 PM, FarCryDX wrote:
/thread

Winner winner chicken dinner.

Hahaha, that was really funny for some reason, :P

Jeremy Soule who made the soundtrack for Guild Wars and the Elder Scrolls series made his music digitally (from what I read).

Seriously this argument has been made like 5 billion times. Just get over the fact that it's 2008 and people are finding new ways to create music.

At 7/10/08 09:46 PM, TMM43 wrote: You're not understanding what I'm trying to convey in my Kanye example.
Sampling is huge in today's mainstream music. Especially in Rap. (again, ignore the genre and what not, even in Punk music they sample).

I hate how they do that, I find it incrediably cheap. Whitch is why live local bands kickass.

As for you staying away from mainstream and going with local bands. You've created a bias.

Yes maybe, but I like classic rock and sampling wasen't that big back then so my bias isen't that bad. Plus its not unfunded.

You're kidding me right? So some of the greats such as B0unce, ParagonX9, Draze, Envy (just to name a few) make simple beats? Have you ever heard of Toby Emerson? He's a Fruity Loops user and he's a professional DJ. Have you seen at least the screen shots of these songs?

Why would I want a screenshot of a song? Anyway, I'm not mad at them, (their pretty awesome) I'm mad at all of the hacks who use programs like lets say again Ejays, put no effort, then get an awesome credit when they essientially did jackshit besides compose a 13-60 second loop.

Again, this goes back to you creating computer generated music... I would like to see you try and make a song in Fruity Loops or Reason and try to make a name for yourself. Not only on NG but on other sites as well.

Thats honestly not a bad idea. Where might I download these programs? Never mind I look for myself and just show you guys.

Tomorrow is another day, another great discussion. Good night.

Good night and if you feel something crawling up your leg, thats me trying to gnaw you ankle off. (lol step-brothers reference)

At 7/10/08 09:52 PM, joshhunsaker wrote

Well, let's see - I said that. And you basically mentioned tv and movies by saying that everything that isn't recorded live is "not real music".

I never said that. show me a direct quote from me saying that.

So, if you like, now you can clarify your tremendously assertive blanket statement of music in general to only apply to NG.

Would you like to do that?

Maybe I would. BTW, contrary to popular belief big adjectives don't make you seem smarter in large quantities.

At 7/10/08 09:57 PM, DzGuy wrote: Jeremy Soule who made the soundtrack for Guild Wars and the Elder Scrolls series made his music digitally (from what I read).

Well its a video game. So its very likely that it was made digitally.

Seriously this argument has been made like 5 billion times. Just get over the fact that it's 2008 and people are finding new ways to create music.

I won't get over it, the old way worked just fine.

At 7/10/08 09:50 PM, FarCryDX wrote: Ejay is for beginners, people who are developing their musicianship, end of story.

So then why do they only have to make 13 second loops and then get scores like 4.80?!

Things made in Fruity Loops, Reason, etc, things that require you sequence your own amount of material, material that YOU CAME UP WITH, in YOUR HEAD, the SAME place and way a guitar riff or drum beat would be generated, deserves just as much credit.

Right I have nothing against that.

The fake instruments and just a cadaver to translate your musical thoughts and inspirations, just as a guitar or a drumkit is. Either way, your writing music, and if YOU wrote it, its the same amount of output = same amount of credit.

Okay then, so why should there be 16 second loops, that apparently took sooooo much work( what 5 minutes?!), get awesome scores.

/thread

I think not.

So then why do they only have to make 13 second loops and then get scores like 4.80?!

Your not even putting up an argument. If the loops are innovating or are very, very useful, they will probably get high scores. Get over it.

Okay then, so why should there be 16 second loops, that apparently took sooooo much work( what 5 minutes?!), get awesome scores.

I'm not saying they took a lot of work, but a 16 second loop deserves as much credit as a 16 second drum beat or guitar riff. Because the creator, created it. Regardless of what he used to make it heard.

So, again, /thread.

At 7/10/08 10:08 PM, Ferris95 wrote: I won't get over it, the old way worked just fine.

Okay how about this. CAVEMEN created music by banging rocks with sticks. Why are YOU using your lame electrical guitar to make so-called "music"? A guitar is a new invention so it's definitely not music. Stick to the old ways man.

At 7/10/08 10:11 PM, FarCryDX wrote: So then why do they only have to make 13 second loops and then get scores like 4.80?!

Your not even putting up an argument. If the loops are innovating or are very, very useful, they will probably get high scores. Get over it.

Their not innovating, their a bunch of beeps and a few piano notes.

Okay then, so why should there be 16 second loops, that apparently took sooooo much work( what 5 minutes?!), get awesome scores.

I'm not saying they took a lot of work, but a 16 second loop deserves as much credit as a 16 second drum beat or guitar riff. Because the creator, created it. Regardless of what he used to make it heard.

I 16 second drumbeat of guitar riff dosen't deserve much, neither does a 16 second loop.

So, again, /thread.

So again, no.

BTW i'm exhasted and going to bed so I will continue argueing tommorow when I can.

At 7/10/08 10:18 PM, DzGuy wrote:

At 7/10/08 10:08 PM, Ferris95 wrote: I won't get over it, the old way worked just fine.

Okay how about this. CAVEMEN created music by banging rocks with sticks. Why are YOU using your lame electrical guitar to make so-called "music"? A guitar is a new invention so it's definitely not music. Stick to the old ways man.

caveman to electric guitar....
thats quite a leap.

At 7/10/08 10:08 PM, Ferris95 wrote: So then why do they only have to make 13 second loops and then get scores like 4.80?!

Scores in the audio portal are not as significant as scores in the flash portal.

At 7/10/08 10:21 PM, Ferris95 wrote: caveman to electric guitar....
thats quite a leap.

Well that's the old way of making music. We must not change right? Screw all these "instruments" and lets just bang stuff on our heads. That's TRUE music. :)

In my opinion, it takes more time and commitment to produce a song with original instruments, here is my reason:

In about a year, if a person messes with an audio program for about an hour a day, they can master the product and produce really good songs.

In that same year, if a person practices drums or guitar for about an hour a day, they can maybe play a few songs, they won't sound very good.

I've been playing bass for a long time, I have also played drums for a long period of time. I can play nearly every instrument someone hands me (for example, I play keyboards, acoustic guitar, saxophone, trumpet, harmonic.. etc.) , I believe it is SO much cooler to play an instrument with your own hands then using a keyboard/mouse.

And don't bash me for not knowing how hard it is to use audio programs, I've tried many of them. I'm not necessarily saying electronic music is mediocre compared to original music, but I will say that all popular music is made with real instruments, and newgrounds isn't going to boast the chart-topping hits, but luckily it has found its niche with electronica

I was going to go to sleep but I can wait a little to respond to this stupidity.

At 7/10/08 10:24 PM, DzGuy wrote:

At 7/10/08 10:21 PM, Ferris95 wrote: caveman to electric guitar....
thats quite a leap.

Well that's the old way of making music. We must not change right? Screw all these "instruments" and lets just bang stuff on our heads. That's TRUE music. :)

The thing is we slowly changed from banging sticks, to drums, to guitars, to flutes and various other instruments, then jumpy songs, THEN electric guitars.

You see we have to slowly adjust to new styles of music.

At 7/10/08 10:18 PM, DzGuy wrote:

Okay how about this. CAVEMEN created music by banging rocks with sticks. Why are YOU using your lame electrical guitar to make so-called "music"? A guitar is a new invention so it's definitely not music. Stick to the old ways man.

ok you can go listen to rocks and i will keep my electricity :)

At 7/10/08 10:28 PM, Ferris95 wrote: You see we have to slowly adjust to new styles of music.
You see we have to slowly adjust to new styles of music.
You see we have to slowly adjust to new styles of music.
You see we have to slowly adjust to new styles of music.

Good job on completely contradicting yourself lololololol.

Everyone is failing to see why this is such a dumb thread to start with in the first place. A tool is just a tool get over it. How you use the tool is up to you.

I've played the piano for 11 years now and I have a midi keyboard which I THEN USE TO RECORED THE NOTES I PLAY. Which is simply put, the same as playing a live instrument but with more control. My midi piano also has more sounds then my stand up piano I have in my living room.

Look at it this way. A pencil does not draw your pictures for you or write your essays YOU DO. Photoshop does not draw for you it only HELPS you and aids you to make said image. Your fighting over how someone uses a tool. A tool is just one way to achieve the creativity we have. Some tools are easier then others. You can pick up an instrument just like you can pick up a program, its still completely up to you and your skill to make something GOOD.

A synthesizer can come with presets ok? Did you make your guitar or piano, I believe not you probably bought it from your local store. Hell an electric guitar without an amp is just plain weak does that mean its fake? The way you use this guitar or synthesizer is your skill and your talent along with style. THE MUSIC IS NOT FAKE. Music is a broad subject and your saying that some music is fake which is ignorant. All that differs from person to person is why and how they use their tool to create their music.

So I use a synthesizer to make a piano sound, I can still play a piano in real life (even a violin). I don't need to know how to play it to use it. I can synthesize a guitar to add to my songs because it helps me achieve the sound I want.

Your opinion is yours but you are sheltering yourself so badly its just plain dumb. Open your eyes, do you see the kids using premade loops becoming popular? I have yet to see one track become popular that hasn't had time and effort put into it make it to the top. Yes there has been a few but they were instantly shot down by the people around him/her.

Just decide for yourself. What is music to you? I see music as another way to convey emotional messages or portray a place I've been to or dream of. The list goes on but don't lose sight of why you make music. Most of all make it for yourself.

No music is fake its just made in different ways.

Simplicity =$$
In the world before internet, music was a simple catchy melody, that made zillions of dollars. Depending on your end of the music, that has been listened to.
Now, that simple melody might get you 1 million hits on youtube and about $4. (if you are lucky).

A listener with no musical background = pays us dollars.(in the old days)
A musician might laugh at the simple melody but secretly shell out the dollars.

God I love Britney.

Why do we do it?
I don't even fucking know who I'm trying to impress more, the listeners or the musicians. In the end, I'm just happy to not have sold out like Metallica. :D

oh, and stop splicing together premade loops from Ejay, and calling it your own musik and uploading it to the portal. It shall NOT pass. :P

At 7/10/08 10:08 PM, Ferris95 wrote: Maybe I would. BTW, contrary to popular belief big adjectives don't make you seem smarter in large quantities.

"big adjectives"? assertive is a big word huh? mmmkay. just wait until you get to college.

I couldn't have said it better than Mrmilkcarton.

@Ferris95: Not everyone makes a few second long loops with eJay (cuz that's how it's really supposed to be and not Ejay-not that it matters much). Take a look at my stuff for example. And NO, I'm not trying to advertise myself or say I'm a great musician or whatever, I'm just trying to prove out that as others said before, you're viewing this thing from only one point of view.
You're also saying that people who make artificial music are not making real music because they're not using real instruments. Try to give a sneak peak at Beatbox. How's that for not using real instruments, is it not creative?