Communism: Is it such a bad idea?

[Chaoslight]

Most of you should know the founding ideal behind communism.

"To each according to his need, from each according to his ability."

That is, everyone does as much as they can for the state, and recieves from it as much as they need. Is this such a bad way to live?

Assuming of course, that human nature could be altered sufficiently so that no one would try to take unfair advantage of their role.

[Solamnus]

This is like the fourth topic on Communism.

Wonderful idea in theory, but it will never work. I think that is the conclusion.

[Chaoslight]

Of course not, but it really pisses me off when people throw the word around like a swear and don't seem to realize that the only thing wrong with it is the failure to account for human nature.

[MickTheChampion]

Communism is the perfect idea. Yet you couldn't have but one communist state, i believe it is impossible for one state alone to be truly communist, capitalism needs to be taken out world wide, then true communism can establish it world wide!

[Chaoslight]

Interesting. Though I'm not sure I quite understand your reasoning. Care to elaborate?

[MickTheChampion]

At 10/26/03 01:21 PM, Chaoslight wrote: Interesting. Though I'm not sure I quite understand your reasoning. Care to elaborate?

When capitalism is still running in some countries, communism can't be set up. You can't have just one state that's truly communist, first you need states run by the communist party, that will fight capitalism. Then when capitalism is gone the world can be truly communistic!

[mrpopenfresh]

You guys do know that there never was a true communist government right?

Anyways, communism is the perfect way to live, in theory. The thing is, if you were a doctor, would you find it fair to earn the same as the guy who delivers your newspaper every morning? Theres no motivation. Like it or not, the human being is a jealous and greedy creature. Communism eliminates those two traits completely! I think communism is cool, but I could never live in a communist society. Even the little differences, like everyone wearing the same clothes instead of rich people buying fancy clothes does kinda turn me off.

Long story short, communism makes everyone equal, even the ones who don't deserve it.

[Kenney333]

ah Communism, we go way back.

its such a perfect goverment, and even though it may be impossible to reach, trying is the only way to get us close to that perfection, and i am certainly willing to settle for socialism as it maintains many of those wonderful communist qualities.

by the way i like your new sig mick

[Slizor]

That is, everyone does as much as they can for the state, and recieves from it as much as they need. Is this such a bad way to live?

That is a version of Communism, there are other, less centeralised forms as well.

Assuming of course, that human nature could be altered sufficiently

It always comes down to this sodding well boring point and it's always the same. It is the best support for the Marxist view of the media. People always seem to refer to this abstract "human nature" which they, from passive observation, have figured out. You all cast off the idea of the environment people are raised in having an affect. You all cast off all of the good things people do. And you gloss over all the years of peace and just look at wars.

You want to talk about Human Nature? Then fucking well learn what it is.

[CaptainCoco]

I think its fine. The USSR was perfect untill they got rid of it. China's doing the best it can do right now also. If you try and force Democracy like in America (I hate it when they do this) its just gonna blow up in your face and ruin the world.

[Chaoslight]

So, you don't agree that humans, for the most part, are petty, capricous, interested only in themselves and those close to them, and even if you could trust them with your life you'd be a moron to trust them with a dollar?

Admittedly, not everyone is like that, but enough people are to make Communism unworkable.

Or did I misunderstand you?

[dudeitsallama]

At 10/26/03 03:24 PM, CaptainCoco wrote: The USSR was perfect untill they got rid of it.

If you don't know what the hell you're talking about, don't talk. Have you ever lived in the USSR? Well I have. Don't ever tell me that shit hole was perfect.

[TheShrike]

Certainly, if we could alter the very nature of humankind to suit communism, it'd be great.

But we cannot.

[MickTheChampion]

You people really have lost hope....
There is no such thing as human nature, capitalism has made us this way! You think early man gave a shit over who had the biggest cave? Or how many animals their tribe could kill? Or what make of animal skin they are wearing?

My life, is like a zombie movie, everyone has been hypnotised, and I'm the only one who realises it.

We can't alter human nature? But what nature is there to alter, we can end capitalism, that will bring us to true communism.

And you say that a doctor and a guy who delivers his papers shouldn't make the same? Why not? They are both working for their money, if the doctor is simply in his buisness to make money he wouldn't be a good doctor anyway. Without capitalism the idea of a doctor making the same amount as a guy who delivers papers wouldn't seem so absurd to you all.

[FUNKbrs]

Is it just me, or does all utopianism get swallowed up in the details? Monarchy, Oligarchy, Theocracy, Anarchy, Communism, Capitalism.... In the end, the world can't be controlled by unilaterall policies. It's hard enough to understand the motivations of one person, let alone 6 billion. Until everyone has the same goals, no one governing concept can prevail. The problem isn't communism, and the problem isn't captialism. The problem is when the two mix.

My solution? Isolationism and indoctrination. Worked in China and Japan for a LONG time.

[Dagodevas]

I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad idea, just one that has a history of not working.

[TheShrike]

At 10/26/03 03:59 PM, Mick_the_champion wrote: You people really have lost hope....

There is a difference between despair and being realistic.

There is no such thing as human nature, capitalism has made us this way!

Then how do you explain the same actions and behaviors BEFORE capitalism?

You think early man gave a shit over who had the biggest cave?

Yes. We've always been terratorial. Although, you're right. They probably didn't give a shit about the caves. They cared whose terratory had the best hunting.

Or how many animals their tribe could kill?

See above.

Or what make of animal skin they are wearing?

See above.

My life, is like a zombie movie, everyone has been hypnotised, and I'm the only one who realises it.

Oh, I doubt that.

We can't alter human nature? But what nature is there to alter, we can end capitalism, that will bring us to true communism.

There is a human nature, we have behaviors that are completely unrelated to economics. You make it sound like your preferred economic system is the messiah, our only salvation.

And you say that a doctor and a guy who delivers his papers shouldn't make the same? Why not?

I won't deny that almost every country on the face of this planet has a shitty healthcare system, but I do honestly believe that doctors should earn more than, for instance... a paperboy. Why? Doctors require tremendous amounts of training and that aside, doctors provide a service that is always needed, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. All that aside, delivering newspapers isn't brain surgery. Think about this: if doctors and paperboys made the same salary, who'd want to be a doctor. Yes, I do conceede a lot of people go into healthcare for the money, but why waste your time when you could easily do just as well serving coffee at a coffeeshop? One could argue that if training were made cheaper or even free, then only those with a true desire to heal would become doctors, and there wouldn't be a shortage of medicine men because the prohibitive cost of schooling required. I think that is utter bullshit.

My thoughts bring me to say that because a PERFECT communist society would still have many of the same pitfalls as a socialist or capitalist society, plus a few problems neither of the other two have.

Like Ghandi said of western civilization, so say I of communism. It would be a good idea.

[MickTheChampion]

At 10/26/03 04:25 PM, TheShrike wrote:

At 10/26/03 03:59 PM, Mick_the_champion wrote:

There is a difference between despair and being realistic.

You? You haven't lost hope, you're merely foolish.

Then how do you explain the same actions and behaviors BEFORE capitalism?

If something acts the same as capitalism, and behaves the same as capitalism. Then my friend, i think it is capitalism.

Yes. We've always been terratorial. Although, you're right. They probably didn't give a shit about the caves.

Cavemen wouldn't have cared whose was biggest, they would have only cared about getting shelter.

See above.

Saying that proves nothing.

See above.

I did there's nothing about animal skin in your writings above.

Oh, I doubt that.

....aren't you going to explain why? Oh sorry...I forgot. You don't have to explain yourself, You're a mod!!

There is a human nature, we have behaviors that are completely unrelated to economics.

No, capitalism and advertisement cause human greed.

You make it sound like your preferred economic system is the messiah, our only salvation.

You make it sound like it isn't!

I won't deny that almost every country on the face of this planet has a shitty healthcare system, but I do honestly believe that doctors should earn more than, for instance... a paperboy.

Ok...

Why? Doctors require tremendous amounts of training and that aside, doctors provide a service that is always needed, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

You make it seem as if there is only one doctor per hospital

All that aside, delivering newspapers isn't brain surgery.

What if someone isn't clever enough to be a doctor? Does that make them a bad person? Aren't they good people?

Think about this: if doctors and paperboys made the same salary, who'd want to be a doctor.

People who want to help thier fellow man.

Yes, I do conceede a lot of people go into healthcare for the money, but why waste your time when you could easily do just as well serving coffee at a coffeeshop?

Simple, some wouldn't feel challenged working at a coffee shop, they would be bored. They need to do a job they have a calling for.

One could argue that if training were made cheaper or even free, then only those with a true desire to heal would become doctors, and there wouldn't be a shortage of medicine men because the prohibitive cost of schooling required. I think that is utter bullshit.

Well if everything's run by the state, it would be in thier favour to train more doctors, so it most likely would be cheaper or free. It's not utter bullshit, people who have the desire to heal would be able to heal. And who would want a greedy bastard doctor working on you anyway? Looking at you as more of a paycheck than a person...not me anyway!

My thoughts bring me to say that because a PERFECT communist society would still have many of the same pitfalls as a socialist or capitalist society, plus a few problems neither of the other two have.

Fair enough, you can say that...or maybe you can't, when you don't explain what any of these problems are...

[JoS]

The bad thing about communism currently is how misunderstood it is. When you say communism tow things come to the average persons mind, USSR/China/NKorea/Cuba and the second is the word EVIL. Its been pumped into peoples heads o much that communism is wrong that they believe it without even knowing what communism really is. If people knew what it really was then it wouldnt be so frowned upon.

[mrpopenfresh]

Damm you Shrike! You have all the same comebacks as me! Now I'm left with nothing!

Now mick, do you really think a paperboy who works maybe half the hours of a doctor and really just throws heaps of papers around should make the same monay a doctor who has to dedicate his life to learning how the human body works, and to all the sick people? See, thats the problem with communism, you have no motivation to be the best you can be. As for the cavemen, do you really think that they didn't get jealous if their rivals had all the good hunting territories? Common sense man! Of course they did! Competition is also in human nature, and that makes someone want to own more than another.

[TheShrike]

At 10/26/03 04:41 PM, Mick_the_champion wrote: You? You haven't lost hope, you're merely foolish.

Opinion.

If something acts the same as capitalism, and behaves the same as capitalism. Then my friend, i think it is capitalism.

Don't be foolish.

Cavemen wouldn't have cared whose was biggest, they would have only cared about getting shelter.

So what of their terratorial behaviors?

....aren't you going to explain why? Oh sorry...I forgot. You don't have to explain yourself, You're a mod!!

Me being a mod has nothing to do with this subject. And I'd just like to take this moment to point out that you're avoiding points of this argument you don't like. Does that make you a mod? Jeeze... Stop taking easy outs, Mick. Show me what you've got.

No, capitalism and advertisement cause human greed.

Hello? Terratoriality? Every human culture ever to walk the surface of this planet has exhibited a sense of terratory. Terratory = MY LAND, NOT YOURS.

If it looks like greed, and sounds like greed... Oh hell, that's a cheesy cliché anyway. Give me something to argue against, Mick.

It feels like you're not really reading what I post.

You make it sound like it isn't!

It isn't. Prove me wrong. Don't spew rhetoric down my throat, just prove me wrong.

more stuff not worth replying to...

What if someone isn't clever enough to be a doctor? Does that make them a bad person? Aren't they good people?

Don't try to put words in my mouth. I'm not implying that your average blue collar worker is a 'bad person'. I am saying that being a doctor requires a higher mental capacity than delivering papers. Would you want the manager of the local pub removing cancer from your brain?

People who want to help thier fellow man.

True. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

Simple, some wouldn't feel challenged working at a coffee shop, they would be bored. They need to do a job they have a calling for.

And what makes you think that enough would choose jobs that are NEEDED. Can you prove that we'd have more doctors/scientists/garbage men under communism?

Well if everything's run by the state, it would be in thier favour to train more doctors, so it most likely would be cheaper or free. It's not utter bullshit, people who have the desire to heal would be able to heal. And who would want a greedy bastard doctor working on you anyway? Looking at you as more of a paycheck than a person...not me anyway!

If the greedy doc was the best damn doc, I'd be all for him healing me. Paying the bill is another issue. Although, if we had socialized healthcare, I could get the best damn greedy doc out there for a decent price.

Under communism, all the people who want to be doctors wouldn't be fit. We have the same problem in capitalism. Communism doesn't fix the fact that there will be people with double-digit IQs trying to get into feilds of expertise waaaay over their heads.

And my argument still stands: would we have enough of the people we need?

I don't think so.

[TheShrike]

At 10/26/03 05:15 PM, mrpopenfresh wrote: Damm you Shrike! You have all the same comebacks as me! Now I'm left with nothing!

No, your points about motivation are quite valid. I hadn't begun to consider that side of it. Maybe you should persue that issue.
; ]

[MickTheChampion]

At 10/26/03 05:21 PM, TheShrike wrote:

Don't be foolish.

You're the one who is being foolish here.

So what of their terratorial behaviors?

What territorial behaviour? Without capitalism there is nothing to fight over...

Me being a mod has nothing to do with this subject. And I'd just like to take this moment to point out that you're avoiding points of this argument you don't like. Does that make you a mod? Jeeze... Stop taking easy outs, Mick. Show me what you've got.

No you completely avoided my point, hence why i said you don't have to explain yourself. You're the one thinking now, that your perfect system maybe ain't the right one...

Hello? Terratoriality? Every human culture ever to walk the surface of this planet has exhibited a sense of terratory. Terratory = MY LAND, NOT YOURS.

What doe's that have to do with money and greed? It's just land, I'm sure in a communist world mankind will realise how silly it is. You won't though, you'll be in denial and kill yourself :)

If it looks like greed, and sounds like greed... Oh hell, that's a cheesy cliché anyway. Give me something to argue against, Mick.

I did, you lost.

It feels like you're not really reading what I post.

If i didn't read it? How could i respond to it?

It isn't. Prove me wrong. Don't spew rhetoric down my throat, just prove me wrong.

Fine, as soon as i get my education I'll start a world wide revolution! Then I'll proove you wrong you pathetic waste of human life.

more stuff not worth replying to...

Not worth replying to? Or can't reply to? We all know the answer.

Don't try to put words in my mouth. I'm not implying that your average blue collar worker is a 'bad person'.

Yes you were, you were implying they don't deserve as much money just because they aren't well qualified enough for the job, I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm reading your comments for what they are!

I am saying that being a doctor requires a higher mental capacity than delivering papers. Would you want the manager of the local pub removing cancer from your brain?

If he was qualified enough to remove cancer from my brain then yes, i would prefer him to do it than a stranger anyway!

True. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

Then why are you argueing against it so much?

And what makes you think that enough would choose jobs that are NEEDED.

Well then it comes down to your terrirtorial bullshit then doesn't it? "I have a better job than you!"

Can you prove that we'd have more doctors/scientists/garbage men under communism?

Uh...you can't proove something til it happens...cretin...

If the greedy doc was the best damn doc, I'd be all for him healing me. Paying the bill is another issue. Although, if we had socialized healthcare, I could get the best damn greedy doc out there for a decent price.

A greedy doc never is the best doc because he looks at you as money, rather than a person.

Under communism, all the people who want to be doctors wouldn't be fit.

They will get the qualifications they need, what's stopping them?

We have the same problem in capitalism. Communism doesn't fix the fact that there will be people with double-digit IQs trying to get into feilds of expertise waaaay over their heads.

Yes it does, it helps them realise that they don't need to, that they should get into something that they can do, and still get benefits, and still be helpful to society.

And my argument still stands: would we have enough of the people we need?

I don't think so.

We don't know until it's tried. And it will be tried, I'll set it up or die trying!

And also you say you want something else to argue about?

Here's what I got, this is why all multi-national companies should be run by the state:-

We can take an example, coffee? You guys like coffee? Something we take for granted. We get Coffee through mass worker exploitation, say they sell it at $3 a jar right? They get bags full of it for $1, because they pay the people who make it next to nothing. They can get like 10 jars out of one bag, so they are making alot of money through this capitalism, which is no better than slavery. There are no minimum wage laws set in there other countries, so the fucking fat cats walk all over thier workers. Setting up all thier buisness in other countries also creates problems for workers here.

Now does state ownership sound like such a bad thing?

[FUNKbrs]

You're right. The State should set a minimum wage, and do the best they can to educate the people and teach them to be giving and do the jobs they are best suited to.

You're also wrong, because I'm sorry, a doctor is a more intelligent person than a paper boy. If intelligence is good, then a doctor is better, then conversely, a paperboy is worse. That's what we call L-O-G-I-C. We could always train dogs to deliver papers, but we can never train animals to be surgeons.

In effect, what I'm saying is we need a strong centralized but simplistic government that rewards intelligence but does not discriminate against the lower class. It should offer everyone the ability to be as useful a member of a society as they can be, and rewards those who are successful to a reasonable degree.

In other words, Fascism.

[MickTheChampion]

You made a fair point there, but then fucked it up by being retarded and saying Fascism...so I'll ignore it.

[Dagodevas]

At 10/26/03 06:06 PM, JudgeFUNK wrote: In other words, Fascism.

Sorry, but I could never support a government controlled by only one individual.

[JoS]

Umm Im curious, is intelligence the same as knowledge. I think they are too different things. ISnt intelligence the ablity of your mind, not how much you know? I mean hey that sugreon was probally a paperboy at sometime. KNowledge is different because its just what you have been taught and have retained, not your ability to preform mental tasks. And animals can do medicine. There are dogs trained to find skin cancer and can do it quicker and better than a bi-opsy. One dog found skin cancer in a spot on a person then the doctor to varify it ended up having to do two bi-opsys to find it and the dog found it in afew minutes.

[FUNKbrs]

At 10/26/03 06:10 PM, Mick_the_champion wrote: You made a fair point there, but then fucked it up by being retarded and saying Fascism...so I'll ignore it.

Hey, I'm not discriminating against your political slant because of Stalin and gulags, don't discriminate against mine because of Hitler and concentration camps. Stalin was twisted communism, and Hitler was twisted fascism. Nazis were racist fascist. I'm a fascist, but not a racist.

[EvilGovernmentAgents]

The thing is, whenever people hear "facism", they automatically think of Hitler and racism. It's just a cultural thing.

I don't think that there will ever be a truly perfect system of govt. for humanity. Like FUNK said, until we can understand and please every single person down to the little details, we'll just have make do with what we have.

[Alejandro1]

At 10/26/03 01:01 PM, Chaoslight wrote: Assuming of course, that human nature could be altered sufficiently so that no one would try to take unfair advantage of their role.

This defines socialism. Communism is the failure of a group of people to accept socialism. Because society has not been perfected yet, any fully socialist country will fall to communism; it only takes a small group of non-conformers to make this happen.