Lets Talk About "epic" And How.

[jrayteam6]

[adj] surpassing the ordinary especially in size or scale; "an epic voyage"; "of heroic proportions"; "heroic sculpture"

Epic is big, epic is huge, epic is strong. Epic is NOT a choir behind your break beat.

I'm really sick of people asking crap like "how does it be epic more for this track?" People use the word to describe the most mundane crappy sounding tracks.

Ok, lets play a game called use audio terms to describe epic.

1. REVERB
2. MIIIIIDD!!!!
3. OCTAVES
4. TRANSITIONS!
5. A FUCKING BEGINING, INCLUDING APPROPRIOTE BUILD UP FOR SCALE OF MAIN THEME/RIFF
6. LONG ENOUGH TO DEVELOP NUMBER FIVE ACCORDINGLY
7. BIG DRUMS

Now lets think about some things that are epic that everyone knows. How about....

1.ORLOFF'S O Fortunana.
2. FUCKING A THE "REQUIEM FOR A DREAM" TRACK. (ANYONE ELSE TIRED OF THIS?)
3. MOVIE SOUNDTRACKS! (WILLIAMS, HORNER, GOLDSMITH, POLEDOURIS, ZIMMER, RABIN... ECT)

Now hang on, before you rip my asshole out for deducting out of such examples that epic must contain and make use of an orchestra - I'm not saying that. But I am saying that the orchestra is the easiest "instrument / set of instruments" to get that big sound out of so I'm going to hang with that for now.

So before you upload your track, heres some things to think about before you use the word "epic" in your descriptions right after you claim to just have "wrote this epic shit last night, cha." This should also greatly increase the understanding of people intrested in enhancing or learning what an orchestra VST can do for you.

REVERB is important because reverb is realistic . Yeah, you dont keep that orchestra of yours in your closet, do you? But you also dont keep it in your personal ampitheatre so dont over do it. Its usefull when your using your staccato (attack strings) as a melody, or just rythmically. ( If your using your staccs (Strings or brass) at a ferocious tempo, the reverb is going to make them muddy.)

Rape your percussion with reverb. You want to take those heavy orchestral toms and jack the mids up throw some overdrive on them at about a quarter high and make them ring with verb. Oh, and on the tom note, please take the time to vary the velocities and power of them. No one wants to hear your tom fills with all the same power. A great way to write awesome tom and heavy percussion melodies is to import all of them in at their various notes, C4, A4, E4 and G4 just vary the velocities when you load them in and make your C4 alf as loud as your A4 and mix it up a bit. That way you can just fill some blocks in your sequencer and you get a nice rythm. Sometimes, I double the two bottom toms on the 2 and 4 beats and then you use your softer ones to lead into the monster hits. Run your timpanis under them (fucking a tune your timpanis, thats what they're for.) and your monster gongs and cymbal rolls and crashes running with the reverb get smacked onto those hits and you have some really powerfull percussion. Even for softer parts and movements, a classic cymbal bell ting works just as well as a soft gong with the appropriote reverb. Another great trick is that a lot of times on your soft swelling parts, a loud windchime that goes up the scale is going to make the whole track seem to decrease in volume.

Lets talk about orchestra hits! Get rid of that shitty stock FL one you hear in 80's rap tracks. The Orchestra hits I really prefer are built from the ground up with a sexy bass drum hit on a gong with a snare pop, then all 7 octaves of attack strings and some brass. For those of you that dont know, the tuba is low, the trumpet is high, the french horn is slow and sexy at its low notes, and powerfull and agressive on its high notes. You never really need trombones or baritone horns or anything, because you can get a full sound by cheating. All seven octaves of brass stacked onto that hit with the middles pulled up a bit is going to give you a hit you can feel.

How about some digital theory, which is a term i'm going to con for cheating digitally. Lets say you've got your rythm guitar or your saws or your attack strings running your melody, but its not strong or big enough. Its viola time! Break your upper middle string instruument and let it roll the melody with them. Now take your (not violin) FULL STRINGS (most useflull shit ever) and go over your chords behind your melody. Just remember, the higher your strings will get the harsher and more of your music they're going to pierce through. So if your melody is getting eaten, pull your high notes down and keep your C4 - C6 chords going. Another great trick with your FULL strings sound is to jack in your SLOW strings sound and pull it up about 25% louder. Then you get a nice rich full strings sound thats slightly dynamic. I just try to think of melodys as the meat of a sandwich thats in the middle. You need your high strings up there playing longer notes to box it in and pull it together, and a solid base of bass to compliment it without the high strings getting out of hand.

This direction also sort of needs some talk about transitions. Take the time to add somthing fresh to your chorus. Lets say your making a trance or dnb track or whatever, and In your chorus, your saw is the lead. Instead of bringing your saw in after a cheesy drum fill to begin its first notes of its part, try running it up the scale at the end of the verse (with your drum fil) and let it meet the note it starts on in your chorus.

If that doest make sense, all I'm saying is introduce your new instuments instead of them showing up. Thats completely vital to you BUILD UP. The only way to get big (epic) is to start small. Example. Lets say that.... You have a 4 bar beat. For the whole bar, let your root key note play. Then when your two notes in let it play a 5th over it and your root note above that fith. So now you have your root note, then another root note at the next octave up which starts halfway through the 4 bar beat. Copy and paste this into your next 4 bar pattern and then copy it again and pull it up two octaves, so now you have 4 root notes and two fifts. Fade the higher octave in and you have an 8 bar pattern that doubles in octaves and size and you can hear it sneak in but you dont know where. I hope that makes sense. I'm basically saying fade your octaves in and out to increase and decrease the "epicness". This is another great tactic for fast attack strings (staccattos again) if you have them hitting your root note at each beat on your chorus, fade it in through the verse behind it. You need an orchestra to just sneak out from the silence.

So your building this verse into this huge fuckin a right chorus but your transition just isnt hitting hard enough, you can use some digital theory and cheat again. Transpose this mother up the next note in your scale's key. So now your chorus starts at the next key up, but its still intune. All you have to do now is write an approproite transition and find that note that sounds wrong at the end of the verse, but right at the beginning of the chorus. Basically, just remember that if you need it bigger, move up the scale. (write moving in an upwards direction up the scale, the higer the note, the bigger it seems to get.)

Another great trick that people dont realise is on those orchestra hits we talked about earlier, let some brass play some wrong notes, just a step off around C4 and C5. Its kind of like doubling up guitars, it will sound slightly wrong but its going to get a lot heavier and stronger if your lower percussion hits roll over it.

CHOIRS!
USELESS! Unless you use them correctly. Get Magnus or a shit ton of soundfonts and layer them together. If you can shell out the money for EWS Choirs, go for it, but it not, you basically restricted to lower, longer notes that can basically be used to back up your lower and upper middles. Theres no attack, so your melody will sound like goat gizz in an ac unit and will be sloppy as fuck if you try to use them.

Im about to run out of characters, but if there's an interest, I can go on.
Wheres Rage at and some others, fell free to add.

[MaestroRage]

Could not have said it better myself. Though you've pointed out an excellent route to take the epic composer should keep in mind there are many many takes on "Epic", each that relies on different tactics to fill out.

Regardless of which way you take, you're best friend is chords.

As pointed out before the chords you build are vital in all areas of the song, not just orchestral hits. Chords will give the ethereal feeling and sense of great being because it will sound more "full" on all levels.

And though it's true heavy reverb on percussion on a fast tempo will muddy up the whole thing to hell, on a slow segment featuring a solo woodwind (like panflute, gotta love the exotic ethnic stuff), you can apply a healthy thick supply of reverb and it will shine brilliantly.

There is no general tempo for Epic tracks, you can go as fast or as slow as you want, there is an epic style that will suit it well.

I guess the best way to go from here is, are there any questions? I mean there's so much to say, it would take pages upon pages more writing it all.

[Suspended-3rd-Chord]

Great tutorial!!! Thanks for writing it for us!

also, why do you always post with such anger ;_;

[JebbaL]

I have nothing more to add except don't use percussion for the melody.

Thanks so much for writing all that. I read it all and will definitely go back to it when I start a new song!

[jrayteam6]

I'm just really tired of people that dont try. Its kind like how everyone that gets fruity loops thinks they make they greatest shit for the first few weeks they have it. I'm trying to say in a relativly aggressive voice that people need to TRY. I'm tired of the ignorance. I want to hear somthing that took some serious work in the composition aspects of music. Not how well someone can manipulate effects and call it an interlude. I'm trying to demonstrate how you can get a different sound, and almost any of these examples are great building places. I'm sick of mindless melodys, lets hear some mindless melodies with variation and background. The orchestra is really really usefull and I think people are afraid of it beacuse there are so many instruments within. I think if anything the audio portal can do for itself is have some thicker stronger audio.

[KgZ]

An epic song is usually based on emphasis on dynamics, and a memorable melody.

The only way people remember songs is through a melody.

[Ambimetric]

At 7/8/08 08:43 AM, KgZ wrote: The only way people remember songs is through a melody.

Absolutely not true.

[KgZ]

If I want to sing a song for my friend to let him know how the song goes, would I:
A.) Sing the melody
B.) Sing the chord progression
C.) Sing the Bass
D.) Sing the Drums (?)

I bet there are a few exceptions, but 99% of the time, the melody is key.

[jrayteam6]

Ambimetric, I'm curious as well. If not melody, what exactly is memorable to someone who wouldnt get off on technical aspects?

[Hades0013]

At 7/8/08 08:57 AM, Ambimetric wrote:

At 7/8/08 08:43 AM, KgZ wrote: The only way people remember songs is through a melody.

Absolutely not true.

I agree, a lot of the time it happens that I remember the chord progressions (especially when it comes to classical songs), or the bass-line (even thought you could count that as a sub-category of melodies). Hell, when it comes to certain songs, drums can be the most noticeable thing about the entire piece (especially when it comes to different drum intros and transitions)!

Sure, the melody usually stands out the most, but this is in no case a rule. Depending on the artists view of how the song should sound, any instrument, section or sound can be the most memorable.

[JebbaL]

I'd say that most of the time its the melody that catches your attention and makes the song memorable. Its different for each genre I suppose tho.

[MusicalRocky]

You can't get fucking seven octaves of brass.

It's perfectly all right to write melodies in the percussion. Having it played out in a glockenspiel, for example, is hot, and adds playfulness to the largeness of the sound, which in turn accentuates the largeness. Williams himself did it in the Main Titles for Star Wars.

True, melodies are what people hum or whatever, but they're not the most important thing or whatever, and not necessarily what make people remember a song. You can have the greatest freaking melody in the world and make a completely forgettable song out of it. It's the way ALL the elements come together that makes a song great. Harmonies make the melody stand out. Percussion adds color to the expressiveness of the harmonies.

Also, what is all this nonsense about adding reverb to specific instruments? That doesn't make any sense to me. If we're talking about realism here, which we seem to be, if you have a certain amount of reverb on one instrument, you need to have it on THE WHOLE ORCHESTRA. To borrow from the earlier example, you don't record certain instruments in a closet and the rest onstage and put it together.

Wtf are mids? The middle-range instruments? Just wondering.

Tons of percussion are totally unnecessary. In fact, timpanis are freaking versatile, and having a loud timp hit on the strong beats, on the ROOTS of the chords, adds for a very large impact. However, you can't just have timps playing any fucking amount of notes you want. Three or four different notes, maybe, because for each note, there's a separate timpano onstage, and those are freaking huge. Add maybe a cymbal crash and perhaps a bass drum, as mentioned, if you have a dark song (to me bass drums radiate a darker sound in a piece), and you're okay, but I don't know about all this toms and stuff. Wtf? As I said, percussion is merely a color tool, not an expressive tool, so don't try to use it to express grandeur, but merely to accentuate the grandeur that is already present with the absence of percussion.

About transposing up a scale degree when you reach the "chorus"{?}: if you move the melody and all that stuff up, at the same time move your bass voices down. I don't mean transpose them down. Just write a lower line for them. You see, if you transpose up, your expansion of sound is limited, but if your upper voices go up and your lower voices move down, you truly get an expanding sound, because the "range" of your instrumentation is expanding.

Also, true, "epicness" with an orchestra is, if not the easiest to attain, than the most familiar to listeners, but let's not advertise that it's the mother of all "epic" instrumentations. "Epic" sounds can be produced with a single piano. The sound is not inherent in the instrumentation, or even the dynamics, but sometimes a mere MELODY, ALONE, sounds large and powerful. Listen to the first movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony.

I myself never go and try to write an "epic piece." I am inspired by melodies, images in my head, or hardmonies, chord progressions, and the like, and I choose full orchestras sometimes because that, to me, is the most expressive instrumentation available to a composer.

[jrayteam6]

Ok here we go,

No, in reality, you cant get seven octaves of brass, the point I was making is use your brass and your strings at their maximum range and power to get the strength necessary.

Your reverb question, the point I was trying to make is that no, you shouldnt have more reverb on one instrument than another in the full orchestra. But if your using a piece of it, strings for example, they sound pretty shitty without reverb and stereo wideners.

Yes, when i used the term mids, I reffered to the middle instruments, usually those that would play first parts in melodys, as well as the mid on an eq.

I also didnt say anything about timpanis playing every single note. I mentioned them one time to illustrate a second part of the percussion in the example I was using at the time. My biggest point was that people should take the time to tune timps.

I'll be the first to agree with you that percussion is a color tool, but I think its key in emphasizing the size of the piece. Thats just an opinion. But I thinkg as soon as you add a timpani fill or a gong to a power note , its going to sound bigger. Just keep in mind, this is a lot more of an article for people who have no idea what an orchestra is composed of and how it can be used.

I completly agree with your point on the bass moving down to fill the void you've created when transposing up. I figured it would be understood when it sounded weaker. Like Rocky said, you can write an alternate part, or walk your bass down an octave. (not saying you should do this just to transpose up one step.)

Dont run me over because I short cutted this stuff to make it easier to understand. I've done my time in classical theory and concert band. I'm just trying to make some of this easier to see how to get a bigger sound.

[MusicalRocky]

Aight I was afraid this would happen.

I wasn't trying to attack you at all, mainly just putting my points out there. Of course, I may not be believed, but that's beside the point. You made a helluva lot of good points in your post that I wholeheartedly agree with.

My point about timps playing on the strong beats wasn't supposed to be contradicting anything you said; it was an independent point I was making, continuing something I had begun to say.

I'm sorry I took you literally at your word when you mentioned seven octaves. I'm the kind of guy that when specifics like that are mentioned, I automatically want to check to see if it's accurate, not out of proving someone wrong or right, just to see.

I wasn't trying to make this a theory issue or anything. Again, this is a great thread you've started; I was merely trying to build onto the ideas with my own opinions, not cause any kind of unrest. Sorry.

That's partially why I put a smilie as an encompassing mood for my post lol.

Also I wasn't only talking to you when I posted, so don't feel that way.

Hopefully it's all good now.

[Winterwind-NS]

At 7/8/08 08:57 AM, Ambimetric wrote:

At 7/8/08 08:43 AM, KgZ wrote: The only way people remember songs is through a melody.

Absolutely not true.

righto

[Firebalt]

I dont know if this has been discussed as ive really only scimmed this huge topic. Personally i think One of the things (not the only thing but one of) that makes a song epic is if it takes the listener on a journey, usually this applies for longer more progressive songs. Im talking about those 6min + songs that have many different sections that contrast eachother.
For example a lot of Dream Theater songs are "epic" not only in their huge length but in the way that the songs have distinct sections and take the listener on a musical journey through different styles and genres in the one song. Songs of theirs like The Great Debate and Misunderstood.

Personally as far as popular songs go, i would say one of the most Epic songs ive heard would be Knights of Cydionia by MUSE.

Thats just my opinion on the topic.

[JebbaL]

At 7/8/08 05:52 PM, MusicalRocky wrote: It's perfectly all right to write melodies in the percussion. Having it played out in a glockenspiel, for example, is hot, and adds playfulness to the largeness of the sound, which in turn accentuates the largeness. Williams himself did it in the Main Titles for Star Wars.

I shouldn't have said "percussion". I meant don't write the melody to be played by something like cymbals or a gong. It was a silly thing to say in the first place.

[Suspended-3rd-Chord]

At 7/8/08 06:13 PM, jrayteam6 wrote: Your reverb question, the point I was trying to make is that no, you shouldnt have more reverb on one instrument than another in the full orchestra. But if your using a piece of it, strings for example, they sound pretty shitty without reverb and stereo wideners.

Really? I was told to experiment with minor but varying levels of reverb on each instrument as well as different levels of volume to place the instruments front to back within an orchestra, with an accompanying "plate" reverb on the entire mix.

[sonicmega]

At 7/7/08 08:04 PM, jrayteam6 wrote:

2. MIIIIIDD!!!!

MID? or MIDI? I can't stand most MIDIs, because it truly takes a masterful hand to make something created from those kinds of notes to sound organized and bountiful.

[jrayteam6]

Rocky its all good dude, I think we're on the same page.

Mid. M I D.

No midi, thats like fisher price composing.

[jarrydn]

At 7/9/08 03:37 AM, jrayteam6 wrote: No midi, thats like fisher price composing.

And how do you think note data gets into your VST instruments in the first place? ;)

[jrayteam6]

I always thought it stood for Magic Is Definatly Induced... but. I was wrong once.

[sorohanro]

At 7/7/08 08:04 PM, jrayteam6 wrote: 1.ORLOFF'S O Fortunana.

that is Carl Orff "O Fortuna" from Carmina Burana? or i'm thinking of something else ... ?

[MusicalRocky]

At 7/8/08 06:13 PM, jrayteam6 wrote:

Really? I was told to experiment with minor but varying levels of reverb on each instrument as well as different levels of volume to place the instruments front to back within an orchestra, with an accompanying "plate" reverb on the entire mix.

That sounds okay. Bottom line is, vast differences in reverb between instruments isn't good lol. As long as you have an overall sound, like it's all one orchestra. You know what I mean.

[MJTTOMB]

I don't mean to interrupt, but you mentioned zimmer along with film composers. zimmer does nothing but hijack the work of every classical and romantic composer from 1700 to modern day.

As for epic-ness, one great effect is to have contrasting motion between the bass and the treble (one goes up, other goes down). Also, suspended harmonies, dissonance, and chromaticism help add a really powerful feel to anything.

[sorohanro]

At 7/9/08 12:46 PM, MJTTOMB wrote: I don't mean to interrupt, but you mentioned zimmer along with film composers. zimmer does nothing but hijack the work of every classical and romantic composer from 1700 to modern day.

i don't really agree here
he have several things that are his own mark in music, like using that very ostinato percuttion, snare drum with bass drum at the same time ... and some others, but now i'm supossed to practice trumpet, so ...

[MJTTOMB]

At 7/9/08 01:01 PM, sorohanro wrote:

At 7/9/08 12:46 PM, MJTTOMB wrote: I don't mean to interrupt, but you mentioned zimmer along with film composers. zimmer does nothing but hijack the work of every classical and romantic composer from 1700 to modern day.

i don't really agree here
he have several things that are his own mark in music, like using that very ostinato percuttion, snare drum with bass drum at the same time ... and some others, but now i'm supossed to practice trumpet, so ...

The entire gladiator theme is a blatantly obvious plagiarism of the "Mars" movement Holst's planet suite.

[ZENON]

At 7/7/08 08:04 PM, jrayteam6 wrote: Rape your percussion with reverb. You want to take those heavy orchestral toms and jack the mids up throw some overdrive on them at about a quarter high and make them ring with verb.

I stopped listening to what you have to say right here.

[jrayteam6]

Granted, Zimmer wiped "Mars" into Gladiator. But what all you guys are forgetting is that THIS IS FUCKING NEWGROUNDS. Do you write scores for blockbuster films? Can you transpose for an orchestra? If you dont want this advice, dont take it. I'm just trying to share some tricks that got me on the BOAT list 15+ times.

Zenon, before you take the effort to make an ass out of me about the reverb issue, I'd like to point out that the majority of your music is not centered on realism, and your a capable writer, so you dont really need this advice in the first place. http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/1 44178 at .20 seconds in you'll hear the percussion I'm talking about built in the same way I talked about it. The snares, the gongs, all have heavy reverb. If you dont like it, thats fine. Write a topic about how you dont need reverb in DnB.

[sorohanro]

really cool track
congrats