Bums and Their Role in an Economy

[poalwo]

The homeless exist because there is a market for them. They consume what would otherwise be waste. They give a second life to goods that are otherwise not valued. They recycle or consume things that would otherwise rot in a landfill. In this way, they are healthy part and a natural niche of any economy.

Therefore, you should not feel sorry for them. Do not give them money out of pity when you see them on the streets. Do not create labor for them out of pity. In doing so, you are reducing their efficiency and disturbing the natural population of homeless, thereby only contributing to the waste in your economy.

You should, however, treat them with respect. As self-employed waste management specialists, they are just as much a part of the economy as you are working for McDonald's or Microsoft. Instead, you should displace that disrespect to the government bureaucrats that provide "services" not essential to securing free production, no matter how nice their suits are, because they are the true freeloaders with no natural place in an economy. For a list of people to spit on in the streets and avert your eyes to, you can start here.

As long as there is a market for the homeless, they will continue to exist. They are scavengers, no more unnatural than vultures. The population of homeless is dependent on the availability of waste. Government sponsored "spread the work" schemes will not reduce the population of homeless because, even assuming no extra waste from these efforts, the resultant decline in purchasing power will only make homelessness more likely.

The way to decrease the homeless population is to decrease waste. Granted that 0 waste is a virtual impossibility, as it is a result of uncertainty in the market, it can be greatly reduced through the easing of government involvement in the market. For example, subsidizing the ailing American car industry only results in the production of goods that will not be consumed (waste). Furthermore, one cannot ignore the uncertainty imposed on the market by central banking. Therefore, the true way to end homelessness is by freely allowing the market to do what it does best: provide the highest quality goods and services to the most people in the most efficient manner possible.

[dySWN]

Mmm... delicious copypasta...

[poxpower]

At 7/5/08 04:27 AM, dySWN wrote: Mmm... delicious copypasta...

you know if you're going to post that like some dipshit, at least give the source.

[evilXbanana]

At 7/5/08 03:43 AM, poalwo wrote: The way to decrease the homeless population is to decrease waste. Granted that 0 waste is a virtual impossibility, as it is a result of uncertainty in the market, it can be greatly reduced through the easing of government involvement in the market. For example, subsidizing the ailing American car industry only results in the production of goods that will not be consumed (waste). Furthermore, one cannot ignore the uncertainty imposed on the market by central banking. Therefore, the true way to end homelessness is by freely allowing the market to do what it does best: provide the highest quality goods and services to the most people in the most efficient manner possible.

Lol wut. are you saying the homeless are a byproduct of waste? Like the bad guys from captain planet? Well as full proof as that logic is, I have to disagree. Homelessness results from a lack of financial responsibility in a society that would otherwise take care of its unemployeed.

[dySWN]

At 7/5/08 05:46 AM, poxpower wrote:

At 7/5/08 04:27 AM, dySWN wrote: Mmm... delicious copypasta...

you know if you're going to post that like some dipshit, at least give the source.

I remember seeing something like this on these forums. But it was a while ago, and I don't remember the thread. Of course, I could be wrong.

like some dipshit

Bad day, huh?

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 05:52 AM, evilXbanana wrote: Lol wut. are you saying the homeless are a byproduct of waste?

No, not really. It's not that simple. Reread the original post.

Well as full proof as that logic is, I have to disagree. Homelessness results from a lack of financial responsibility in a society that would otherwise take care of its unemployeed.

"Taking care" of the unemployed is just as bad as "spreading the work" schemes. They just cause other people to become unemployed, which generally leads to homelessness. It's not only financially irresponsible for a society to force one man to become unemployed to give another a paltry government dole but also morally deplorable.

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 05:55 AM, dySWN wrote: Of course, I could be wrong.

^

[dySWN]

At 7/5/08 06:08 AM, poalwo wrote:

At 7/5/08 05:55 AM, dySWN wrote: Of course, I could be wrong.

^

Alright then, my mistake.

More to the point, I disagree with your thesis. There are homeless people out there who really are incapable of serving a function to society due to mental disabilities, many of whom drain resources and cause trouble without putting anything back. Those are sad cases, but they do exist.

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 06:14 AM, dySWN wrote: More to the point, I disagree with your thesis. There are homeless people out there who really are incapable of serving a function to society due to mental disabilities, many of whom drain resources and cause trouble without putting anything back. Those are sad cases, but they do exist.

Then you've missed the point completely. They may not be able to hold down a job due to their mental disability, but they still consume what would otherwise just be waste. That is not a drain on resources, and is instead just another unique niche in the market. There is nothing sad about it.

There are government bureaucrats out there who really don't serve a function to society due to unfortunate policy, all of whom drain resources and cause trouble without putting anything back. Those are sad cases, but they do exist.

[dySWN]

At 7/5/08 06:19 AM, poalwo wrote: Then you've missed the point completely. They may not be able to hold down a job due to their mental disability, but they still consume what would otherwise just be waste. That is not a drain on resources, and is instead just another unique niche in the market. There is nothing sad about it.

I would assume that their taking up our waste is only a small recompense when you take into account the strain they put on social services.

There are government bureaucrats out there who really don't serve a function to society due to unfortunate policy, all of whom drain resources and cause trouble without putting anything back. Those are sad cases, but they do exist.

I agree. We should get them real jobs, too.

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 06:24 AM, dySWN wrote: I would assume that their taking up our waste is only a small recompense when you take into account the strain they put on social services.

Right. These are unnecessary, wasteful, and immoral.

[Sajberhippien]

Americans never stop amazing me.

[uhnoesanoob]

At 7/5/08 08:07 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Americans never stop amazing me.

Care to actually contribute to the thread?

Anyways, I believe the welfare status at the moment is what's causing some of the homelessness. Yesterday, I saw a woman buy a shitload of useless junk, and she paid for it with food stamps. Without some of the welfare I feel more people will be encouraged to get jobs, thus reducing the level of homelessness a tad.

[Christopherr]

LOL.

Bums serve no purpose at all. We don't need them in any way.

A large number of these homeless people have the choice to work, but they don't because they can con money from people. If people stopped giving them handouts, I assure you most of them would go away.

[Sajberhippien]

At 7/5/08 10:28 AM, uhnoesanoob wrote:

At 7/5/08 08:07 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Americans never stop amazing me.

Care to actually contribute to the thread?

Anyways, I believe the welfare status at the moment is what's causing some of the homelessness. Yesterday, I saw a woman buy a shitload of useless junk, and she paid for it with food stamps. Without some of the welfare I feel more people will be encouraged to get jobs, thus reducing the level of homelessness a tad.

Getting a job won't automatically get you a home. Quite the opposite; you often need a home to get a job. When you're living on the street, things like personal hygiene and sleep become luxuries.

[Ravariel]

Bums, like the lottery, are there to provide a tax on stupid.

sarcasm?

[poxpower]

You forgot one thing about bums: they're really annoying.

If you've ever been to San Francisco or any subway, you'll find them everywhere pestering people left and right for change, yelling down the streets like morons, sleeping on park benches that could be used for sitting asses on, leaving dirty blankets all over the place etc.

Not to mention that a lot of them benefit from the generosity of others and thus survive. I wonder how many of them would actually still be alive if there weren't any homeless shelters or people to give them change. Most likely they'd turn to crime and then drain some more ressources while in prison.

The real recyclers are those punks and hippies who go through restaurent trash and make deals with grocery stores to take the "bad" food ( i.e. the not-fresh-of-the-day stuff ) and give it out to families, or to eat or whatever.

Now that's smart.
meh

I don't see how homeless people are a "healthy" part of recycling ressources anyways, they just pick up a tiny amount of garbage to travel around with and then just stand around annoying everyone. Fuck that.

[animehater]

We need to set up places that would turn these guys into productive members of society. Privately of course.

[arxarts]

interesting theory.......

oh, and btw, a hobo might be earning more than you!

Just think of it, a hobo gets 25 cents (a quarter) average from passer-bys. Supposing the hobo got 12 donations every hour on average, Mr. Hobo is getting $3 an hour, for a "work" shift of about 12 hours (9 to 9) every day (84 hours per week), Mr. Hobo is earning 3x84= 252 (rounded to $250) per week, around $1000 USD every month. Doubt a McSlave (no offence to anyone who is a McSlave) earns that much....

we must remember Mr. Hobo does not pay rent or any commodities of any sort.

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 05:33 PM, poxpower wrote: You forgot one thing about bums: they're really annoying.

And I'm talking about America, the place where being annoying is a birth right.

If you've ever been to San Francisco or any subway, you'll find them everywhere pestering people left and right for change, yelling down the streets like morons, sleeping on park benches that could be used for sitting asses on,

Now show us why people sitting on benches is better than people sleeping on them.

leaving dirty blankets all over the place etc.

Litter is a human problem, not a bum problem.

Not to mention that a lot of them benefit from the generosity of others and thus survive. I wonder how many of them would actually still be alive if there weren't any homeless shelters or people to give them change. Most likely they'd turn to crime and then drain some more ressources while in prison.

This is why I urge you to stop being charitable toward them. Yes, some may turn to crime in the immediate desperateness of their situation when the demand on waste increases, but I think you're underestimating the human spirit to suggest that rather than innovating, people will just turn to crime. However, "give them money so they don't hurt us" sounds a lot like appeasement, no?

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 05:44 PM, animehater wrote: We need to set up places that would turn these guys into productive members of society. Privately of course.

These do exist. Contrary to popular belief, there is no job shortage in America. There are, however, jobs that people are not willing to do and jobs that cannot come into existence because of labor laws. Why don't the homeless take these jobs then?

It's all about opportunity cost. Everyone knows how to get ahead in life. You can devise a product and market it, learn a skill, trade, or service and work for yourself or others. To increase your credibility and odds of success, you can invest a large amount of your time and sometimes money going to school. I'm sure you can finish this spiel yourself.

Some homeless may decide to do this (and eventually make movies about it (The Pursuit of Happyness)), but most will choose not to go to all the effort because they can live in minimal luxury on waste. This is a natural niche in the market, and assuming no charitable gifts from other people or government interaction, their population will directly depend on the amount and availability of waste, just as any population of scavengers depends on the amount and availability of dead animals.

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 12:20 PM, Christopherr wrote: Bums serve no purpose at all. We don't need them in any way.

You and Stalin would get along great. In a free society, one can choose to live however one wants as long as it does not violate the rights of others. The society's/government's/your "need" is irrelevant. I've already explained how and why there is a niche in the market for them.

A large number of these homeless people have the choice to work, but they don't because they can con money from people. If people stopped giving them handouts, I assure you most of them would go away.

Yes, handouts are inflating the homeless population.

[dySWN]

At 7/5/08 07:17 PM, poalwo wrote: There are, however, jobs that people are not willing to do.

I always hated this line of reasoning. Maybe that McDonald's job seems below some people, but to someone with nowhere else to turn it's an opportunity. IMHO, the majority of us need to learn to set our pride aside and do what needs to be done.

[poalwo]

At 7/5/08 07:33 PM, dySWN wrote: I always hated this line of reasoning. Maybe that McDonald's job seems below some people, but to someone with nowhere else to turn it's an opportunity. IMHO, the majority of us need to learn to set our pride aside and do what needs to be done.

Opportunity cost.

[Der-Lowe]

They have no role; that's why they're called "marginals".

[Korriken]

At 7/5/08 07:33 PM, dySWN wrote:

At 7/5/08 07:17 PM, poalwo wrote: There are, however, jobs that people are not willing to do.

I always hated this line of reasoning. Maybe that McDonald's job seems below some people, but to someone with nowhere else to turn it's an opportunity. IMHO, the majority of us need to learn to set our pride aside and do what needs to be done.

being a slave to the pedophile clown is merely a launchpad to better things. my first job was at a popeyes. eventually you get sick of the moron manager who is obviously not qualified for his/her job and do one of the following things.
1. find a better job.
2. prove yourself more capable to the store owner and get the manager ousted and you put in their place.
3. go into business for yourself.
4. kill the manager and spend the rest of your life in prison.
5. just quit out of sheer frustration.

I mean seriously, have you ever seen a manager in a fast food chain that is actually qualified to run it? Fast good chains run themselves.

[Jizzlebang]

Yeah, I don't think it's as much as a market, but the fundementals of Capitalism. If there are homeless people, it puts pressure on the people with low-level job workers to be more motivated. There's always that threat of being replaced =)

It's kinda designed that way.

[n64kid]

At 7/5/08 01:04 PM, Sajberhippien wrote:

Getting a job won't automatically get you a home. Quite the opposite; you often need a home to get a job. When you're living on the street, things like personal hygiene and sleep become luxuries.

Usually where poor people are there are apartments for rent in the 400 dollar range. Even if a homeless person becomes a janitor, he can easily afford rent.

What's this?

Oh it looks like the homeless can make 300 bucks a day, which is more than a hard working clerk makes in a week. Rent in a one bedroom apartment is just a couple days away since I doubt that bum pays any taxes. Or he can just live in a homeless shelter for free, like our cities provide anyways.

[FalconPunch]

At 7/5/08 08:07 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Americans never stop amazing me.

In my trip to Canada last summer I saw more homeless people than I ever had in my life before then, and I live in America.

[poxpower]

At 7/5/08 07:01 PM, poalwo wrote:

And I'm talking about America, the place where being annoying is a birth right.

If you have a house.
haha

Now show us why people sitting on benches is better than people sleeping on them.

They're made for people to rest from sports or to take a break, not for some hobo to litter on and stink up during the day.
When I went to LA, all along the side of the beach were benches, right along the path where people work out and bike and run, but you could barely sit down since lots of benches are occupied by hobos.

Those are taxpayer benches >:O
lawl

Litter is a human problem, not a bum problem.

They could at least pick some of since they have nothing to do all day.

Man there was a place in San Francisco where the hobos would actually go INTO restaurents to beg for change.
That's harassment. What's next? door-to-door hobos?

but I think you're underestimating the human spirit to suggest that rather than innovating, people will just turn to crime.

I have no idea what they will do, but I won't give them any change EVER.
I'd rather DIE than beg on the streets, so yah.