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At 10/25/03 08:53 PM, punk_disease wrote:
Dude, children in America as young as 9 years old are being taught sex ed. I think they might know a thing or two about sex when they reach puberty.

Ehem...this topic is about the middle eastern culture, not American.

Well, I can’t really comment on the Islamic religion’s belief about sex with children. It’s their belief and that’s that. However, I believe, looking neutrally at it, I believe it’s natural for someone above the age of 18 to be attracted to someone slightly below the age 18, but to be attracted to someone who is 9 is just mind-boggling to me.

Im pretty sure that 12-13 year olds know whats up with sex. Most people here have already been12, so by personnal experiences, tell us if you knew about sex, im pretty sure most of you knew alot about it. I mean, my parents gave me the talk at 11. And know with the internet and all, every damm kid in north america has caught at least a glimpse of a boobie. Even just the pop ups.

At 10/25/03 10:06 PM, Solamnus wrote: Usually with age, comes wisdom. Of course it is a simple statement that it of itself is not proof. However, older people can handle their alchohol a tad bit better than younger people. They would have the experience or intelligence to know how to handle it. Not to mention biologically. So age does have a factor here.

Wisdom doesn't always come with age. Sometimes age comes alone. Older people can only handle alcohol better because they've built up a tolerance to it. I know that kids don't handle alcohol as well as adults but that has to do with physical development, which happens at a different rate for everyone.

Again, age comes with experience in the overall grand scheme of things.

Experience comes with experiencing things, not being alive for a set period of time.

To get back on topic...

Would you take a nine year old girl for your wife and have sex with this child? Why or why not?

Would I marry a 9 year old? No, of course not! Nine year olds are annoying as hell. She'd drive me crazy. Besides, they usually can't cook or clean very well so what's the point? (random bit of sexism) Seriously though, I wouldn't have sex with a 9 year old. That's disgusting. But just because something is disgusting doesn't mean it should be illegal. A 9 year old probably wouldn't have hit puberty yet, much less have developed to the point where she could be considered more than a child in any sense, but if she had, I wouldn't necessarily label someone who had sex with her a rapist. I still wouldn't do it though because I think it's morally wrong.

At 10/25/03 11:58 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

Wisdom doesn't always come with age. :

Experience comes with experiencing things, not being alive for a set period of time. :

Which age would be a good measure. The point was is that age does have some factor. It may not be universally applicable to everyone but it is a good arbitrary rule of thumb.

Would I marry a 9 year old? No, of course not! I still wouldn't do it though because I think it's morally wrong. :

So then Muhammad made a morally wrong decision though he is supposed to be a prophet from God. Christ, what about all the psychological crap a child would go through. You often hear psychologists say 'Let kids be kids."

My whole point is if Muhammad, a prophet, had sex with a nine year old girl and if it was ok (because supposedly she hit puberty) then it must be logical that Muslims themselves would do the same thing in the 21st century.

Funny though, no one answered me on this question at Clearguidance.

sex with children, yeah its great!i remember on time bangin this 13 year old................i was 12 thow, so who was really in the wrong their?

Yes, most of North Americans are, but the middle east is quite different.

Btw, that post was a reply to mrpopenfresh's last post here.

At 10/26/03 09:46 AM, NoMilkToday wrote: Yes, most of North Americans are, but the middle east is quite different.

But it still depends. Not all middle easteners are the same you know. Just like in north america, the more religious people tend to say things like "If you have sex before marrage, you go to hell" and other extreme ideals. Then there's people who just lie so that their kids will be too scared to try it, things like "if you touch it too much, you'll go blind"

At 10/26/03 01:00 AM, Solamnus wrote:

At 10/25/03 11:58 PM, dudeitsallama wrote: Would I marry a 9 year old? No, of course not! I still wouldn't do it though because I think it's morally wrong. :

So then Muhammad made a morally wrong decision though he is supposed to be a prophet from God. Christ, what about all the psychological crap a child would go through. You often hear psychologists say 'Let kids be kids."

No, he didn't make a morally wrong decision. You can't apply modern morallity to other time periods. Have you ever heard of prolonged adolesence? That's what we have now. Back then, people didn't live that long so a nine year old wasn't really that much of a little kid.

At 10/25/03 11:49 PM, mrpopenfresh wrote: Im pretty sure that 12-13 year olds know whats up with sex. Most people here have already been12, so by personnal experiences, tell us if you knew about sex, im pretty sure most of you knew alot about it. I mean, my parents gave me the talk at 11. And know with the internet and all, every damm kid in north america has caught at least a glimpse of a boobie. Even just the pop ups.

Yeah its true that 11 or 12 year old children do know more than their parents even. But, I definately dont believe they are ready for sex even with someone their own age. Let alone someone over 18, who would most likely be taking advantage of the child. Its not right to have sex with a little kid, even if they do know what they're doing.

At 10/25/03 11:49 PM, mrpopenfresh wrote: Im pretty sure that 12-13 year olds know whats up with sex. Most people here have already been12, so by personnal experiences, tell us if you knew about sex, im pretty sure most of you knew alot about it. I mean, my parents gave me the talk at 11. And know with the internet and all, every damm kid in north america has caught at least a glimpse of a boobie. Even just the pop ups.

True kids at that age do even know more than their parents. But I dont even feel its right for them to be having intercourse even with people their own age. I definately argue those children arent ready for that expierience. Let alone an adult who would most likely be taking advantage of a minor.

At 10/24/03 09:32 PM, Solamnus wrote: 4)Islamic Law says this is since Aisha was "developed"

Comments?

This is why I don't like theocracy.

At 10/26/03 02:38 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

No, he didn't make a morally wrong decision. You can't apply modern morallity to other time periods. :

Why not? That would be saying that slavery was ok 150 years ago here in the United States because many people agreed with its practice.

well, in the bible lots daughters had sex with him and the bible, btw, does not in anyway condem it, does that mean that christian women go out and have sex with their drunken fathers? saying that is as ridiculous as saying that muslim men marry 9 year old girls and think it's ok. to use some religous figure who may or may not have actually existed as the moral basis for an entire group of people is stupid. Christians don't act mch like jesus, do they?

i doesnt matter where u r or what part of history u want to quote. having sex with children is wrong.

At 10/27/03 09:51 AM, Solamnus wrote:

At 10/26/03 02:38 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

No, he didn't make a morally wrong decision. You can't apply modern morallity to other time periods. :

Why not? That would be saying that slavery was ok 150 years ago here in the United States because many people agreed with its practice.

No, it wouldn't. Slavery in general was considered wrong by most educated people. The US was founded on the principals of freedom and having slavery was hypocritical. On the other hand, Islam was not founded on the principle of not screwing nine year olds. Not only is the morallity of having sex with children subjective, but so is the definition of what a child is. Back then, in that region, a girl that had hit puberty was considered a woman and treated as such. Here and now, a nine year old often isn't even given the respect that a nine year old deserves so it would be wrong to treat her like a woman in any other respect.

ok no one should have sex before puberty cuase it serves no purpose. and after puberty you should usually only have sex with someone within 3 or 4 years of your age. and i think after 18 you can fuck anyone (thats also over 18). Your old enough to make those decisions.

thats my personal opinion and i think that a 54 or so year old and a 7 year old is just fucking sick and he should be shot.

I like sex, but not with some one born the same year i turned 10. Atleast not untill Im over the age of 28.

At 10/27/03 06:10 PM, blueloa13 wrote: ok no one should have sex before puberty cuase it serves no purpose. and after puberty you should usually only have sex with someone within 3 or 4 years of your age. and i think after 18 you can fuck anyone (thats also over 18). Your old enough to make those decisions.

thats my personal opinion and i think that a 54 or so year old and a 7 year old is just fucking sick and he should be shot.

I agree that it is indeed sick, but going as far as killing him would make you just as sick.

At 10/27/03 03:41 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

No, it wouldn't. Slavery in general was considered wrong by most educated people. The US was founded on the principals of freedom and having slavery was hypocritical. :

Actually, yes it does support slave practices because you are objecting to a set of absolute morals. And I highly doubt that slavery was considering wrong "in general amongst the educated." Christ, slavery existed in the colonies back in 1620. Yeah, very few educated people over a period of 200 years right? It may be true that we were founded upon "freedom" but that did not extend to blacks and Indians all that well.

On the other hand, Islam was not founded on the principle of not screwing nine year olds. Not only is the morallity of having sex with children subjective, but so is the definition of what a child is. Back then, in that region, a girl that had hit puberty was considered a woman and treated as such. Here and now, a nine year old often isn't even given the respect that a nine year old deserves so it would be wrong to treat her like a woman in any other respect. :

Again I will hold the posisition that child sex is an absolute moral that many people hold today and are against.

But the point was, if Muhammad, a prophet from God had sex with a nine year old girl SOLEY based on the fact that she only had T&A, would Muslims do this today?

That puts Muslims in a pickle doesn't it? If Muhammad did it, why shouldn't present day Muslims? If they disagree, why? Christ, Muhammad was a prophet from God of all things, he MUST be right...yes?

At 10/27/03 07:58 PM, Solamnus wrote:

At 10/27/03 03:41 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

No, it wouldn't. Slavery in general was considered wrong by most educated people. The US was founded on the principals of freedom and having slavery was hypocritical. :

Actually, yes it does support slave practices because you are objecting to a set of absolute morals.

There's no such thing as an absolute moral.

And I highly doubt that slavery was considering wrong "in general amongst the educated." Christ, slavery existed in the colonies back in 1620. Yeah, very few educated people over a period of 200 years right?

It was considered wrong. That's why so many of our founding fathers freed their slaves. Even Jefferson who kept his slaves said that slavery was wrong. He was just too afraid of a backlash to free his slaves. As for the slavery in 1620, it was much less harsh and not based on race.

It may be true that we were founded upon "freedom" but that did not extend to blacks and Indians all that well.

That's what I meant by "hypocritical".

Again I will hold the posisition that child sex is an absolute moral that many people hold today and are against.

Again I will hold the position that there are no absolute morals.

But the point was, if Muhammad, a prophet from God had sex with a nine year old girl SOLEY based on the fact that she only had T&A, would Muslims do this today?

Well, do they?

That puts Muslims in a pickle doesn't it? If Muhammad did it, why shouldn't present day Muslims? If they disagree, why? Christ, Muhammad was a prophet from God of all things, he MUST be right...yes?

These are all such ignorant and predjudiced questions. If people want to have sex with nine year olds they'll do it whether their prophet did it or not. On the other hand, intelligent people don't just do things because some prophet did them. They do this thing called thinking for themselves. Jesus went around turning water into wine, but many Christians are strongly opposed to alcohol. You need to stop acting like all Muslims are crazy religious fanatics that need to be reprogramed so they conform to some set of nonexistent "absolute morals".

At 10/27/03 07:58 PM, Solamnus wrote:

At 10/27/03 03:41 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

No, it wouldn't. Slavery in general was considered wrong by most educated people. The US was founded on the principals of freedom and having slavery was hypocritical. :

Actually, yes it does support slave practices because you are objecting to a set of absolute morals. And I highly doubt that slavery was considering wrong "in general amongst the educated." Christ, slavery existed in the colonies back in 1620. Yeah, very few educated people over a period of 200 years right? It may be true that we were founded upon "freedom" but that did not extend to blacks and Indians all that well.

On the other hand, Islam was not founded on the principle of not screwing nine year olds. Not only is the morallity of having sex with children subjective, but so is the definition of what a child is. Back then, in that region, a girl that had hit puberty was considered a woman and treated as such. Here and now, a nine year old often isn't even given the respect that a nine year old deserves so it would be wrong to treat her like a woman in any other respect. :

Again I will hold the posisition that child sex is an absolute moral that many people hold today and are against.

But the point was, if Muhammad, a prophet from God had sex with a nine year old girl SOLEY based on the fact that she only had T&A, would Muslims do this today?

That puts Muslims in a pickle doesn't it? If Muhammad did it, why shouldn't present day Muslims? If they disagree, why? Christ, Muhammad was a prophet from God of all things, he MUST be right...yes?

Right what is your point, slavery was fucked up, we can all agree on that now, but it was common practice back then. It is proof that views and morals change

Hell, in Europe it was common for girls to marry around the age of 12, and this was still happening about 1600 as well

What are you going to start bitching about next, the gullotine, the crusades...shut the fuck up

Anyway, back to the point, to many people are being politically correct and respecting other beliefs and other such bullshit...anyone that fucks a child, deserves death...also, the onset of puberty does not make one an adult, the end of puberty does

I also think that anyone over 18 can do whatever they want, with anyone they want. Unless they are somehow disabled or otherwise impaired.

But, for those under the age of 18 I see it as being ok for consentual sex to occur on a kind of parabolic scale, 14-15, 15-17, 16-19, 17-21 or something

And dont go ranting at me because your 22 and your girlfriend is 17 and I appear to be against this relationship, use common sense, if they are close enough to your own maturity, mind & body then whatever.

I gotta agree with TheTio here. If you make a mature decision to have sex, and both parties agree, then it's right. If either party doesn't want to, then it's wrong. This stands if you are both 14, or if one of you is 18 and the other is 14.

I have two friends who are (to quote another friend of mine) "Shagging like rabbits" she's 14, he's 18. She wants it, he wants it, they're both getting it and everybodys happy.

At 10/27/03 10:30 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

There's no such thing as an absolute moral. :

Why not? Can human society not agree upon certain actions that are wrong? Always have been, always will be?

I am not speaking about some divine absolute from the heavens, I am speaking about absolutes (as objective and absolute that human reason will provide) that world society can use as a universal standard.

It was considered wrong. As for the slavery in 1620, it was much less harsh and not based on race. :

I am sure it was considered wrong by very few people until the fires of the Civil War started to erupt. And your point towards 1620 is irrelevent. It is still slavery.

Again I will hold the position that there are no absolute morals. :

So 1400 years ago in the Arabian desert, it was ok to have sex with children in you view.

These are all such ignorant and predjudiced questions. If people want to have sex with nine year olds they'll do it whether their prophet did it or not. On the other hand, intelligent people don't just do things because some prophet did them. They do this thing called thinking for themselves. Jesus went around turning water into wine, but many Christians are strongly opposed to alcohol. You need to stop acting like all Muslims are crazy religious fanatics that need to be reprogramed so they conform to some set of nonexistent "absolute morals". :

LOL! Muslims are taught that Muhammad had sex with Aisha at the age of nine and this is ok to them. It is a very simple question. It is obvious that a man of God could carry on such actions then it is logical to assume that this behavior is appropriate in the eyes of God. If this is so, it would lead to the assumption that it is ok to many Muslims past, present, and future...which no one objected to.

You are hung up on the idea "they will think for themselves and will do whatever they want." That is not the point. The point is they believe Muhammad's behavior is appropriate. And becuase of this, is this behavior of having sex with children still appropriate today in Muslim society? If not, why not? It is not appropriate, then what happened? Was Muhammad wrong, was God wrong, is there a logical explanation why it is/it is not practiced today?

The people at Clearguidance danced around the issue like you are. Except you are too worried about hurting peoples feelings, "these are ignorant, prejudicial questions."

As to your objection to absolute morals (something that I have already touched upon), I believe there are certain things that everyone can agree on that have always been wrong, are still wrong, and will always be wrong; i.e, slavery.

The fact is, I will call filfth when I see it. Slavery is filfth, child sex is filfth (which everyone on Clearguidance said was appropriate mind you) and many others.

At 10/28/03 12:24 AM, TheTio wrote:

What are you going to start bitching about next, the gullotine, the crusades...shut the fuck up :

The underlying point is that Muslims agree that Muhammad and his child sex was appropriate. It has nothing to do with the fact that it happens for whatever reason. Of course this garbage happened in Europe, do you agree with it? Do you justify child sex?

Oh, and how about you STFU cunt.

Look guys, there is a REASON they are called children. CHILDREN, not adults. Children are underage, immature, and not ready for many things life has to offer. Are people here trying to justify having sex with impressionable kids who don't know whats going on? Even if they do, its totally inappropraite.

At 10/29/03 06:32 PM, Solamnus wrote: LOL! Muslims are taught that Muhammad had sex with Aisha at the age of nine and this is ok to them. It is a very simple question. It is obvious that a man of God could carry on such actions then it is logical to assume that this behavior is appropriate in the eyes of God. If this is so, it would lead to the assumption that it is ok to many Muslims past, present, and future...which no one objected to.

You are hung up on the idea "they will think for themselves and will do whatever they want." That is not the point. The point is they believe Muhammad's behavior is appropriate. And becuase of this, is this behavior of having sex with children still appropriate today in Muslim society? If not, why not? It is not appropriate, then what happened? Was Muhammad wrong, was God wrong, is there a logical explanation why it is/it is not practiced today?

The people at Clearguidance danced around the issue like you are. Except you are too worried about hurting peoples feelings, "these are ignorant, prejudicial questions."

You fucking moron, let it go...have you ever heard the expression 'He was a man of his times"

Who do you hold in high esteem huh? The knights of Europe were fucking their 11 year old wives up until the 1600s...quite a bit more recent than Mohammad dont you think, wait you dont

Fuck I really dont care anymore actually, instead of trying to make these morons let go things that happened hundreds, maybe thousands of years ago I will just say this

What do you hope to accomplish? Make people who had nothing to do with it by about 100 generations concede that yeah, it was fucked up...

Well here you go, yes it was fucked up, if it happened today they should be biffed in prison to enjoy many many years of a black guy named Brutus, but its not today, the world was a different place back then...

This is a politics forum, not a history forum...so how about instead of digging shit up outta the dark ages and beyond you start paying attention to current events

Let it go, breath...ok