Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

Checking login status…

USERNAME:

PASSWORD:

Logging in…

Logged in as:
.
Logging out…
Inbox My Account Log Out


Forum Topic: Abortion Wanna play Devils Advocate

(699 views • 72 replies)

This topic is 3 pages long. [ 1 | 2 | 3 ]

<< < > >>
None

Al6200

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/1/08 02:49 PM

Al6200 LIGHT LEVEL 15

Sign-Up: 12/03/05

Posts: 1,093

Having been in a number of abortion debates, on and off the politics forum, it always seems like the winning position is an abortion cutoff in the mid-late 2nd trimester. The most radical positions that are common among Pro-Life and Pro-Choice organizations seem to be obliterated almost immediately. Very rarely is the position that abortion should be illegal from the moment of conception taken seriously, and likewise almost no one argues that abortion should be legal up until the moment of birth. Yet these are the positions that major Republican and Democratic candidates take.

Just out of pure boredom, I decided that it would be fun to play devil's advocate and try to create arguments to defend the two radical positions.

Defense of complete ban on abortion from the moment of conception

The laws of the United States are based on the principles of personal liberties and freedom of choice. People have the right to make choices, but the government exists to prevent people that make choices which violate another person's liberties.

The legal value and personhood of an individual is related to both the person's current state and potential future state. Consider the issue of euthanasia. If you agree that it would be ethically permissible to end the life of a terminally ill cancer patient, then you must agree that a person's legal value is determined by both their current state and their future potential.

The stem cell immediately following conception is worthy of basic legal protection because it will
eventually grow and become a person.
A common argument made against the potential value argument is the claim that the non-united sperm and egg are a person. This, however, is absurd because there is a significant difference between a sperm and an egg and the fertilized egg. The blueprint for how the person will develop cannot be reliably predicted from just that sperm and egg, and likewise the outcome of a collision of many sperm and a single egg is highly chaotic. There is no single, most likely, set outcome from that event.

To support this with an analogy, let's say I own a stock of a new start up company called Stall Mart. At this point, Stall Mart is an idea that a few friends have thrown out. They have a bunch of different models and ideas being thrown around, and there is still no consensus on what the store will actually be. None of the concrete has been laid down, and very little research has been done into the market. How much would you pay for such a stock? Very little, I'm guessing. How many investors on Wall Street do you see putting real money on companies where there isn't even a developed business plan?

Now, a few years later, Stall Mart has a few researches together, there's a solid business plan, and the first store is built and ready to open. How much would you pay for a stock of the company? Obviously not as much for a company that's already open, but you still would be able to find some investors. It has some value because development is underway and a business plan has been developed.

Note that even though both companies are just potential businesses, the one that has began development and has a single plan is more valuable than the one with multiple potential plans, and no development underway.

Likewise the stem cell after conception and the sperm/egg are both potential persons, but the stem cell after conception has significantly more value because the person's DNA (the plan for development, if you will) is laid out, and most of the development that will lead to the baby is underway and set in stone. The person is worth more in the eyes of the law, just as a stock is worth more in the eyes of the market if its futures are more predictable.

Therefore, abortion after the moment of conception violates the natural rights of the developing person, and should be illegal under law.

Defense of legalization of abortion until the moment of birth

The central moral issue in abortion is the person hood of the zygote/embryo/fetus. If the fetus is not a person, then there is no sensible reason why the woman should not be allowed to abort it.

What a person becomes is determined by both their DNA and their environment. A person is not a unique person because they have unique DNA. If I took a strand of your DNA, made some changes to it, and then put it back into a cell, would you consider that to be a unique person? And likewise two people with identical DNA are not considered to be the same person.

Therefore, the basis of person hood does not come from unique DNA, but comes from having a unique DNA and a unique environment.

A fetus, until it is born, is simply a function of its DNA, since it has no contact with a substantive environment. If we are to be consistent with our attitude that identical twins are unique persons, and that unique DNA does not constitute person hood, then we must conclude that the fetus is not a person.

When the fetus is born it becomes a function of its environment as well as its DNA, and is therefore a unique human being worthy of rights.

Man's Ego is the fountainhead of Human Progress.

-Ayn Rand

BBS Signature

None

SadisticMonkey

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/1/08 09:12 PM

SadisticMonkey FAB LEVEL 17

Sign-Up: 11/16/04

Posts: 4,671

Just a quick question; on the whole "No abortion from moment of conception" side, does that mean drugs such as the morning after pill would be banned also?

Because that seems pretty damned insane.

You are now aware that the girl you like has had other penises in her vagina & mouth.
[Ask an Atheist a question] [some "deep, complex gothic" shit or something, I dunno]

BBS Signature

None

Al6200

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/1/08 11:36 PM

Al6200 LIGHT LEVEL 15

Sign-Up: 12/03/05

Posts: 1,093

At 7/1/08 09:12 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Just a quick question; on the whole "No abortion from moment of conception" side, does that mean drugs such as the morning after pill would be banned also?

Because that seems pretty damned insane.

Actually quite a few of the morning after pills actually prevent conception, and don't cause an abortion.

Man's Ego is the fountainhead of Human Progress.

-Ayn Rand

BBS Signature

None

TwoRobot

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/1/08 11:47 PM

TwoRobot NEUTRAL LEVEL 02

Sign-Up: 12/28/05

Posts: 10

Birth control needs to be promoted, not dissuaded. Its not like the economy in general can take care of even more unwanted kids.

And condoms need to be totally promoted, they not only are usefulin preventing pregnancy, but also in stopping HIV and other bad diseases. There are already enough infected people out there.


None

PrepareForWar

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 12:03 PM

PrepareForWar NEUTRAL LEVEL 02

Sign-Up: 06/30/08

Posts: 20

At 7/1/08 09:12 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Just a quick question; on the whole "No abortion from moment of conception" side, does that mean drugs such as the morning after pill would be banned also?

Because that seems pretty damned insane.

No its not. Women shouldn't have sex if they aren't prepared for the consequences. Plus the pill would be just as bad as an abortion because you are still denying a child the right to life. Shit, if I was a lawyer I could defend my client by saying "If a woman can kill her child, then my client should be able to do the sign. And don't say it's not the same, because it is. A mother commiting to an abortion is just as bad as a person who sends a hitman to kill someone; they are just as guilty as the one who does it. And I know I can't change your opinion but I want to say one more thing; the only argument pro-choice has is that: It's a woman's choice...

...to kill.

"Si vis pacem para bellum"

"Insert random quote here"


None

Memorize

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 12:05 PM

Memorize DARK LEVEL 21

Sign-Up: 06/12/04

Posts: 12,991

Nothing in the Constitution deals with abortion.

As a result, it would be unlawful towards the constitution to either forcibly legalize or outright ban abortion in all states by the Supreme Court.


None

MercatorMap

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 12:17 PM

MercatorMap NEUTRAL LEVEL 17

Sign-Up: 01/18/06

Posts: 3,292

Scientific definition of life:

Homeostasis: A zygote must maintain homeostasis to survive.

Organization: Zygotes reproduce into multiple cells to achieve organization

Metabolism: Zygotes obviously use energy to grow

Growth: Zygotes obviously grow.

Adaptation: The zygote eventually grows the umbilical cord to receive nutrients from its mother

Response to stimuli: Zygotes move into the ovaries from the fallopian tubes as they grow

Reproduction: A zygote separates into multiple cells

Zygotes therefore meet all the requirements to be scientifically classified as life.


None

MercatorMap

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 12:18 PM

MercatorMap NEUTRAL LEVEL 17

Sign-Up: 01/18/06

Posts: 3,292

At 7/1/08 11:36 PM, Al6200 wrote:
At 7/1/08 09:12 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Just a quick question; on the whole "No abortion from moment of conception" side, does that mean drugs such as the morning after pill would be banned also?

Because that seems pretty damned insane.
Actually quite a few of the morning after pills actually prevent conception, and don't cause an abortion.

So if the zygote has already formed by the time these pills are taken....then what?


None

Elfer

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 01:37 PM

Elfer EVIL LEVEL 35

Sign-Up: 01/21/01

Posts: 12,126

At 7/1/08 11:36 PM, Al6200 wrote:
At 7/1/08 09:12 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Just a quick question; on the whole "No abortion from moment of conception" side, does that mean drugs such as the morning after pill would be banned also?

Because that seems pretty damned insane.
Actually quite a few of the morning after pills actually prevent conception, and don't cause an abortion.

But if the egg is already fertilized, the pill just prevents it from attaching itself to the uterus. Is it the fertilization that's important, or attaching to the uterine wall?

Also, considering potential, what if the egg isn't fertilized yet, but unprotected intercourse has already taken place, during ovulation, for the sake of argument.

This is sort of the problem with a cutoff point based on potential rather than actual personhood.

What would YOU do for a presidential Klondike bar of electoral defeat? HUH? PUNK?
If you're havin' girl problems, I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems, with bitches < 1%

BBS Signature

Mad as Hell

KeithHybrid

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 01:46 PM

KeithHybrid LIGHT LEVEL 03

Sign-Up: 05/02/04

Posts: 1,370

No its not. Women shouldn't have sex if they aren't prepared for the consequences.

But what if a woman was raped? She obviously had no say in wether or not she wanted sex and, by extent, wether or not she wanted a child. Unless you're gonna go as far to say that all women want sex, than there is no reason why the victim shouldn't be allowed the option to terminate.

Plus the pill would be just as bad as an abortion because you are still denying a child the right to life.

Oh, yes, because an unfertilized egg is just the same as a fully-grown person. And while we're at it, why not outlaw masturbation? All that sperm going to waste would be equivalent to mass murder.

Hell, why not charge every murder as a mass murder? All the unused eggs/sperm going to waste should be considered genocide!

"I'd also like to point out that if the game didn't have anything to do with Sonic at all, you'd say it's pretty good."
Blaze-Heatnix, on Sonic games


None

Memorize

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 01:59 PM

Memorize DARK LEVEL 21

Sign-Up: 06/12/04

Posts: 12,991

At 7/2/08 01:46 PM, KeithHybrid wrote:
No its not. Women shouldn't have sex if they aren't prepared for the consequences.
But what if a woman was raped? She obviously had no say in wether or not she wanted sex and, by extent, wether or not she wanted a child. Unless you're gonna go as far to say that all women want sex, than there is no reason why the victim shouldn't be allowed the option to terminate.

No one is talking about Rape, Incest, or when the mother's/Child's life is threatend as a result of the pregnancy.

Therefore it baffles me why people keep bringing it up.


None

Al6200

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 11:34 PM

Al6200 LIGHT LEVEL 15

Sign-Up: 12/03/05

Posts: 1,093

Actually, word to the wise: if you're arguing the Pro-Choice case, a neat tactic is to ask "Do you support an exception for rape?". If they say yes, you can just ask "The fetus produced by rape is the same as the fetus produced by consensual sex. So why don't you care about it's rights now? It seems like your position isn't really Pro-Life, it's actually Anti-Slut".

Pwn.

Man's Ego is the fountainhead of Human Progress.

-Ayn Rand

BBS Signature

None

therealsylvos

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 11:36 PM

therealsylvos DARK LEVEL 20

Sign-Up: 09/16/05

Posts: 1,988

At 7/2/08 11:34 PM, Al6200 wrote: It seems like your position isn't really Pro-Life, it's actually Anti-Slut

Pwn.

And they say, yea, fuck sluts.

TANSTAAFL.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

BBS Signature

None

Memorize

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/2/08 11:37 PM

Memorize DARK LEVEL 21

Sign-Up: 06/12/04

Posts: 12,991

At 7/2/08 11:34 PM, Al6200 wrote: It seems like your position isn't really Pro-Life, it's actually Anti-Slut".

Pwn.

I'd be proud to wear that label. "Anti-Slut"

lolz


Elated

ryazon1

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/3/08 12:54 AM

ryazon1 NEUTRAL LEVEL 02

Sign-Up: 06/25/08

Posts: 3

Thank u so much finally someone understands!!!


Angry

ryazon1

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/3/08 12:56 AM

ryazon1 NEUTRAL LEVEL 02

Sign-Up: 06/25/08

Posts: 3

hey dude everything happens for a reason obviously your not a christian and dont understand that if god wanted to bring a child into the world he can maybe it would grow up to be a super cool kid


None

SadisticMonkey

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/3/08 01:38 AM

SadisticMonkey FAB LEVEL 17

Sign-Up: 11/16/04

Posts: 4,671

Um, I don't know, but I think this guy is legit.

Which just makes it even funnier.

You are now aware that the girl you like has had other penises in her vagina & mouth.
[Ask an Atheist a question] [some "deep, complex gothic" shit or something, I dunno]

BBS Signature

None

Sajberhippien

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/3/08 03:55 AM

Sajberhippien FAB LEVEL 07

Sign-Up: 07/11/07

Posts: 902

At 7/3/08 12:56 AM, ryazon1 wrote: hey dude everything happens for a reason

And if she makes an abortion, it also happens for a reason.

You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.


None

RaharuHaruha

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/3/08 04:06 AM

RaharuHaruha EVIL LEVEL 01

Sign-Up: 03/03/08

Posts: 572

A child can ruin two lives. So you should be able to destroy one life to save two.

At 4/17/08 12:07 AM, peroo wrote:
: wow guys, personally I would have either done a barrel roll or grabbed her cock.

BBS Signature

None

Memorize

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/3/08 09:25 AM

Memorize DARK LEVEL 21

Sign-Up: 06/12/04

Posts: 12,991

At 7/3/08 04:06 AM, RaharuHaruha wrote: A child can ruin two lives. So you should be able to destroy one life to save two.

That's like saying: "I caused you to break your knee. Mine as well get rid of you entirely so I don't have to pay the medical costs".


None

MercatorMap

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/3/08 02:24 PM

MercatorMap NEUTRAL LEVEL 17

Sign-Up: 01/18/06

Posts: 3,292

At 7/3/08 04:06 AM, RaharuHaruha wrote: A child can ruin two lives. So you should be able to destroy one life to save two.

Wrong sir. The child will alter the parent's life, but it is ultimately the parent who determines whether their lives will be ruined or not.

Face the responsibility, because it isn't the child's.


Happy

the1stguy1

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/4/08 02:59 AM

the1stguy1 LIGHT LEVEL 09

Sign-Up: 06/22/08

Posts: 953

my position on this

dont get pregnant
if you are and cant afford a baby abort b4 it could live out of the womb

[FAQs] [Best Lock Ever] [EPIC LULZ] [Incest]
Status: Banned for Excessive Douchebaggery

BBS Signature

None

Sajberhippien

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/4/08 03:36 AM

Sajberhippien FAB LEVEL 07

Sign-Up: 07/11/07

Posts: 902

At 7/3/08 02:24 PM, MercatorMap wrote: Wrong sir. The child will alter the parent's life, but it is ultimately the parent who determines whether their lives will be ruined or not.

So you mean anyone can be a good parent and have a happy child while still being happy herself?
I don't think so.

You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.


None

Natron888

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/4/08 03:53 AM

Natron888 LIGHT LEVEL 04

Sign-Up: 07/17/07

Posts: 39

At 7/3/08 12:56 AM, ryazon1 wrote: hey dude everything happens for a reason obviously your not a christian and dont understand that if god wanted to bring a child into the world he can maybe it would grow up to be a super cool kid

Well obliviously your not a Pastafarian looking at your extremely shortsighted and dogmatic views. I don't claim to know the FSM's opinion on abortion but until I do I'm pro-choice within reason.

I'm a pastafarian, btw


None

SadisticMonkey

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/5/08 05:58 AM

SadisticMonkey FAB LEVEL 17

Sign-Up: 11/16/04

Posts: 4,671

At 7/2/08 12:03 PM, PrepareForWar wrote: "If a woman can kill her child, then my client should be able to do the sign. And don't say it's not the same, because it is.

It's not though.

And the morning after pill, even if conception has occurred, is COMPLETELY different to a regular abortion.

You are now aware that the girl you like has had other penises in her vagina & mouth.
[Ask an Atheist a question] [some "deep, complex gothic" shit or something, I dunno]

BBS Signature

None

dySWN

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/5/08 06:03 AM

dySWN DARK LEVEL 12

Sign-Up: 08/25/06

Posts: 645

At 7/4/08 03:53 AM, Natron888 wrote:
At 7/3/08 12:56 AM, ryazon1 wrote: hey dude everything happens for a reason obviously your not a christian and dont understand that if god wanted to bring a child into the world he can maybe it would grow up to be a super cool kid
Well obliviously your not a Pastafarian looking at your extremely shortsighted and dogmatic views.

Well obviously you're more interested in debating the relevance of religion than the topic at hand.

NEVADA: It's pronounced "nuh-VAD-uh", not "nuh-vah-duh."

BBS Signature

None

dySWN

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/5/08 06:06 AM

dySWN DARK LEVEL 12

Sign-Up: 08/25/06

Posts: 645

At 7/4/08 02:59 AM, the1stguy1 wrote: if you are and cant afford a baby abort b4 it could live out of the womb

Isn't that what adoption is for?

NEVADA: It's pronounced "nuh-VAD-uh", not "nuh-vah-duh."

BBS Signature

None

airguitarheros

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/5/08 08:33 AM

airguitarheros NEUTRAL LEVEL 03

Sign-Up: 06/30/08

Posts: 9

Why Can't We Just Let Everyone Do Their Own Thing?

Contrary to popular belief, Raining Blood is NOT just noise

and Sonic IS really cheap.

BBS Signature

None

ImaSmartass2

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/5/08 01:38 PM

ImaSmartass2 EVIL LEVEL 07

Sign-Up: 07/07/07

Posts: 449

At 7/5/08 06:06 AM, dySWN wrote:
At 7/4/08 02:59 AM, the1stguy1 wrote: if you are and cant afford a baby abort b4 it could live out of the womb
Isn't that what adoption is for?

Of course there is a chance that noone will adopt that child, but hey, the Nuns will take care of them, right?

I am pro-choice within reasonable limit.

I'm a shitty NG user, I don't contribe to news, I don't upload pictures, and I have a bland userpage, but don't worry, I'm going on a spa treatment in General.

Atheist Army

BBS Signature

None

Drakim

Reply To Post Reply & Quote

Posted at: 7/5/08 03:03 PM

Drakim DARK LEVEL 06

Sign-Up: 07/07/03

Posts: 2,326

Interesting. I guess I'll throw in my most relevant argument. I'm interested in your responses.

If we are to give full human right, including the right to live, to a fetus, that still leaves a big gap in the logic. You see, there is no human right that says you have a right to live off others.

That means, If I loose both my legs and arms, I don't have some human right to demand that you work to get me food. If I due to some sickness become unable to produce blood, I don't have some human right that lets me demand you donate blood to me regulary. You might bring in the "babies can't sustain themselves either without the care of the mother either, does that mean that the mother can just leave the baby to die?", but that misses that the mother is required by law to sustain the baby in order to keep the baby, and nothing else. If she is unable to sustain the baby, or doesn't want to, she isn't punished, but the baby is taken away from her. This is a very big diffrence. Although the mother is punished if she does take the responsibility of having a baby and then fails it (say, forgets to feed the baby thus killing it), then she is to be punished, but that is because she entered something akin to a contract. She may keep the baby as long as she sustains it.

Even if we give full human rights to a fetus, it is still just that, human rights, nothing extra past that. There is no human right that let's the fetus demand that a woman sustain it. If we play by such rules, then parents should be required by law to donate any organ, blood or otherwise something in order to save a sick child, even if that hurt the parent (don't try to argue that pregnacies aren't taxing on the mother).

So, in short. Having the right of a full human being does not give the fetus the right to demand the mothers body. There is no such right. It's very possible for the mother to get pregnant without intending to, so you can't just lay the blame on her either.

However, this doesn't neccessary mean that you should be able to have abortion until the day before the birth. One could very well have a system where keeping the baby for X weeks is sort of like a contract.

In about a hundred years, Christians will claim that Christianity was the champion of gay rights and science.


All times are Eastern Daylight Time (GMT -4) | Current Time: 11:46 PM

<< Back

This topic is 3 pages long. [ 1 | 2 | 3 ]

<< < > >>
You need a Grounds Gold Account to post on the NG BBS! If you don't have one, click here to sign up now! It's fast, free, and easy — and opens up tons of great NG features!