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Forum Topic: The Government's Purpose

(348 views • 30 replies)

This topic is 2 pages long. [ 1 | 2 ]

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GrammerNaziElite

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Posted at: 6/16/08 06:34 PM

GrammerNaziElite NEUTRAL LEVEL 01

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Something I never really understood about Republican ideology is that the government shouldn't give welfare to the poor. This to me translates that money is more important than the happiness of the people.

Why shouldn't the government make us happier?


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Jose

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Posted at: 6/16/08 06:45 PM

Jose EVIL LEVEL 24

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I don't feel like giving my money to people who don't deserve it. Freeloaders make me unhappy.


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AzureFenrir

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Posted at: 6/16/08 06:56 PM

AzureFenrir NEUTRAL LEVEL 09

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Improving an individual's happiness means nothing in the face of the economy.

Let's assume this: you give welfare benefits to the unemployed that ensures a standard of living pretty close to minimum wage. Now, assume that A is a minimum wage worker. A is now less willing to accept his minimum wage check because he can get more benefits by simply stalling at home and doing nothing. This creates incentive to not work, which, in turn, greatly reduces the efficiency of the economy.

That much welfare is an extreme example; however, even if a government has surpluses, giving things to less fortunate people on a large scale has its impact on the economy. Let's assume that A is starving and can barely eat two meals a day, neglecting the influence of social factors; that individual is now more willing to do whatever he can to get his son or daughter a proper education and ensuring that they will not suffer the same fate. Assume that A is making a decent living; he might suddenly want his daughter and son to have a PS3 in their homes, but overall, he has less of an incentive to do this. It's the exact same reason why grains collected from agricultural support isn't just given to poor countries despite our ability to easily do so.

Not deserving it is a rather funny argument, though; people who work at construction jobs are arguably more important to societal infastructure than, say, a programmer for a game design company. Why does he not deserve welfare when healthcare and retirement benefits are readily provided to the more "deserving" programmer?


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JT1

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Posted at: 6/16/08 07:00 PM

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The role of government is to preserve the rights of its citizens. It should not redistribute wealth. If someone earns wealth, no government should take it away, let alone give it to someone that did not earn it.

Besides, once a government undertakes welfare, it will inevitably give similar aid to the wealthy, through subsidies and tax loop holes. This wealthfare is always greater than the welfare. This is because the allocation of resources is determined by influence. Since the wealthy always have more influence, they always receive more aid.


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GrammerNaziElite

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Posted at: 6/16/08 07:38 PM

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Rich people get richer and poor people get poorer. Without the redistribution of wealth, that will not change. Besides, rich people don't need that extra ten thousand, what will it do for them? For a poor person, however, that can change their life.

Also, not all poor people are lazy. That's a ridiculous argument.


Shouting

saintpig3

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Posted at: 6/16/08 07:44 PM

saintpig3 DARK LEVEL 05

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yah the richer you are the richer you get the poorer you are poorer you get i mean look the for closer of the house only happens to poor and the tax rebate most of it has gone to the rich just to get people to spend

touched by his noodly appendage

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Jose

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Posted at: 6/17/08 04:00 AM

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At 6/16/08 07:38 PM, GrammerNaziElite wrote: Rich people get richer and poor people get poorer. Without the redistribution of wealth, that will not change. Besides, rich people don't need that extra ten thousand, what will it do for them? For a poor person, however, that can change their life.

Also, not all poor people are lazy. That's a ridiculous argument.

Get out of here you dirty communist.
I'd like to see you hold up that same argument after paying taxes.


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Sajberhippien

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Posted at: 6/17/08 05:58 AM

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At 6/16/08 07:00 PM, JT1 wrote: The role of government is to preserve the rights of its citizens. It should not redistribute wealth. If someone earns wealth, no government should take it away, let alone give it to someone that did not earn it.

How is it supposed to preserve the rights if they aren't given any tools to it? Also, the right to life, health, and home is seen as quite obvious in most parts of the world.

Get out of here you dirty communist.
I'd like to see you hold up that same argument after paying taxes.

1. Calling someone a communist when he doesn't state himself being a communist or taking a communist stance is a logical fallacy.
2. I pay taxes. Counting percent, HUGE taxes. I live in Sweden, and I THINK the average tax-payer pays a total of about 50% of their income in taxes (this includes taxes on things bought). I still agree with him. Could be because I have a less-than-perfect health due to a genetic disposition towards bipolarity, and the welfare system makes it possible for me to get medication, but I think I would have agreed anyway. Here, in a country with high taxes, people actually are quite satisfied with paying taxes.

You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.


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bcdemon

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Posted at: 6/17/08 08:04 AM

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Well, you could just say screw the welfare recipients, and put that money towards something else. Like cleaning up the massive homeless population in your country after you stop welfare checks. Or maybe you could put it towards upgrading the police force, because you stop welfare checks and people are going to resort to other ways of surviving. How are the rich and wealthy going to feel when homeless people are stealing their stuff to survive? Besides, as long as the government is willing to help me out in a time of need, then I don't mind following that gov rules, but if my gov says screw you, then I shall say the same.

TomsPulp: I have a perfect grasp on the English language. I just don't show it on NG because NG really doesn't matter in the real world.


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SmilezRoyale

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Posted at: 6/17/08 08:12 AM

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As far as this country is concerned, those inalienable rights CAN and have been achieved without the government doing anything; Saying that it's the government's responsibity to ensure that everyone MUST have those things causes more problems for those that try than more solutions for those that do not.

This is how debate works; 1) Present Facts 2) Use logic to Interpret the facts 3) Then make conclusions.


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JT1

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Posted at: 6/17/08 08:33 AM

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At 6/16/08 07:38 PM, GrammerNaziElite wrote: Rich people get richer and poor people get poorer. Without the redistribution of wealth, that will not change. Besides, rich people don't need that extra ten thousand, what will it do for them? For a poor person, however, that can change their life.

Also, not all poor people are lazy. That's a ridiculous argument.

Welfare does not reduce inequality. The poverty level stopped falling once Lyndon Johnson instituted the Great Society.

Once it becomes an accepted practice for the government to redistribute wealth to a group, it can do it for any group. Inevitably, invariably the wealthy recieve more aid than the poor. The fact of the matter is that the wealthy will always have more influence than the poor, so the wealthy can more effectively lobby for aid. This aid comes in the form of subsidies and tax breaks.


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Cuppa-LettuceNog

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Posted at: 6/17/08 09:12 PM

Cuppa-LettuceNog EVIL LEVEL 02

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Don't worry, Republicans are far too busy being hypocritical liars to actually limit government like they say they will, or even to not increase it vastly, for that matter.

Hahahahahaha, LiveCorpse is dead. Good Riddance.


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chevydriver007

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Posted at: 6/18/08 04:04 PM

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The government's role should be just to enforce the law, national defense and maintain relationships with other countries. It shouldnt be legislating morality (social and religious conservatives) and it shouldnt be transferring wealth (fiscal liberals)

Defeat Authortarian Conservatism, Defeat Socialist Liberalism

Elect Bob Barr and Wayne Allen Root in 2008


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Shaggytheclown17

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Posted at: 6/18/08 04:16 PM

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The role of the government is to serve the people, lately it has become the reverse, the people are sent to die in foreign countries for reasons unknown to them, the only thing the government want sus to think about is defending our country meaning defending their fat greedy bitch asses.
The government has failed in it's role, corrupt people have gotten into office and corrupted their purpose, one way or another the corruption is going to be gone within maybe 5-10 years or less.

The government's purpose is now to leach and feed off the death and destruction of their own people, sucki the lives out of them with taxes, intrest rates, perscription drugs, whatever they can thnrow at us.

And now they say we're not protected, you're damn fking right we aren't, the government's purpose is to protect us, not the other way around, warrentlessly wiretapping us, throwing innocent people in jail with no rights to a trial or anything.

This shit has got to stop.

9/11 truth NOW!!!

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TheMason

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Posted at: 6/20/08 09:40 PM

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At 6/16/08 07:38 PM, GrammerNaziElite wrote: Rich people get richer and poor people get poorer. Without the redistribution of wealth, that will not change. Besides, rich people don't need that extra ten thousand, what will it do for them? For a poor person, however, that can change their life.

I don't think you understand the Republican ideology (or the classical liberal theory). We do not believe the government is capable of making a person better off. There has been almost 50 years of LBJ's "war on poverty"...and it is a failure. Redistribution of wealth accomplished by the government spreads misery instead of opportunity since it is taking money away from the very people capable of providing opportunity.

Furthermore, once you start funding government agencies it becomes difficult to get rid of them when they either become obsolete and/or fail. In fact it is downright impossible to trim the fat because their existence is created by law.

Therefore if someone has 10,000 they can just give away...they can give it away to charity. The advantage of this is that if an organization fails it can wither and die and be replaced by a better organism.


Also, not all poor people are lazy. That's a ridiculous argument.

And that is not an argument that people are not making. We are all about giving a hand up...not a hand out. If a person does not want to be productive (note I said want...not cannot be productive), why should a rich person be robbed to give to him? How is that not looting?

Debunking conspiracy theories for the New World Order since 1995...

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hotfacts4you

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Posted at: 6/20/08 09:50 PM

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I think welfare is ridiculous unless the person is seriously injured where they can't go to work. Although, I think the business works that out with the employee. For example if they are pregnant or just had surgery done. Otherwise, you earn what you do. I don't think hard workers like me (Yes, I work at a store) should be paying for slackers that don't care at all. I know there are people who get laid off so maybe they should be exceptions. However, people who have not worked a day of their life should not be rewarded with cash.

Sup?


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ThePretenders

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Posted at: 6/21/08 08:20 AM

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At 6/17/08 09:12 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote: Don't worry, Republicans are far too busy being hypocritical liars to actually limit government like they say they will, or even to not increase it vastly, for that matter.

That's true. People still think that the Republicans are the party for small government but they're just like the Democrats. Most of their ideological differences are superficial and in practice they follow more of less the same policies, with little divergence. The same problem exists in many Western countries.

"There's no way you're going to get a quote from us to use on your book cover" - Metropolitan Police Spokesperson - Wall and Piece back cover.

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Idiot-Finder

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Posted at: 6/22/08 06:44 PM

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At 6/18/08 04:16 PM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote:

This shit has got to stop.

Starting with you.


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GunnerX86

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Posted at: 6/23/08 02:50 AM

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Republicans don't say we shouldn't give Welfare to the poor.If you actually read into what we Republicans are saying then you would know that we think it is wrong to give it to people who could just get a job.The reason why people are poor in America is because they don't have jobs.Some people don't have good jobs because they don't have a good education and they are poor, but if they are still working or contributing to society they do deserve Welfare.Basically what we Republicans are trying to say is that you should pay the government back for what it gives you.You must have some kind of talent you could put to use.Even if it's only playing the guitar you could produce happiness.Thus hopefully attracting people to the country.

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ChuckAP

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Posted at: 6/23/08 03:04 AM

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America is supposed to be Capitalist. In fact, The USA has been the symbol for capitalism throughout the world throughout history (the last 200 years). Welfare is one of the most UNcapitalist things things the government could do. It's socialist bordering on communism. Now, who's the real hypocrits, the republican's wishing for thier money to be earned. Or the Bleeding Heart liberals betraying capitalism.


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KingAdamTheGreat

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Posted at: 6/23/08 12:50 PM

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the government purpose is to represent the people not fund people that more than not end up where they are by there own doing.


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BAWLS

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Posted at: 6/23/08 01:33 PM

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At 6/17/08 04:00 AM, Jose wrote: Get out of here you dirty communist.
I'd like to see you hold up that same argument after paying taxes.

As simple-minded as his arguments are, I'm sure you can come up with something better than that.


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Der-Lowe

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Posted at: 6/23/08 01:59 PM

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This is no Economic discussion, it's a legal discussion.


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GunnerX86

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Posted at: 6/23/08 02:33 PM

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I agree with ChuckAP

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JT1

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Posted at: 6/24/08 01:41 PM

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The Law is a great essay about the purpose of government. It is very short, cheap and very good. I highly recommend that anyone interested in politics, especially the purpose or role of government, read this book.


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SevenSeize

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Posted at: 6/24/08 01:50 PM

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I judged a debate in my college speech class and the question was ," What is the role of the government?"

It was two high schoolers debating.

The first one said the role of the government was "to provide for the citizens of its territory."

The second one said "no, the citizens should provide for themselves, it is the government's job to protect."


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Dante-Son-Of-Sparda

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Posted at: 6/24/08 03:34 PM

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to protect the the citizens and her territories.

CELLARDOOR6 FOR NG MODERATOR!!
McCain FOR PRESIDENT OF 08!!

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animehater

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Posted at: 6/24/08 04:18 PM

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At 6/24/08 01:50 PM, SevenSeize wrote: I judged a debate in my college speech class and the question was ," What is the role of the government?"

So how did that turn out?


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MortifiedPenguins

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Posted at: 6/24/08 06:40 PM

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At 6/16/08 06:34 PM, GrammerNaziElite wrote:
Why shouldn't the government make us happier?

Logical Fallacy.

Since each person's views on happiness are different, it is a certian possibility that when you make one person happy, you would be making another person unhappy, thus screwing with the original intent.

A far better option would be to allow the person to have the option to make themselves happy.

Between the idea And the reality
Between the motion And the act, Falls the Shadow
An argument in Logic

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animehater

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Posted at: 6/24/08 06:44 PM

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Defense and Law and Order are what I feel are the only responsibilities of government, and certainly not to provide.


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