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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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Gloudas
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-30 16:28:15 Reply

At 7/28/08 01:27 PM, Rucklo wrote: What I might have said however, is that the staff already have soooo many good ideas, I'm sure some are already presented in the "ap evolution thread" by users too.
The problem is not the lack of ideas, it's the fact that the staff's resources are limited, and the fact that the AP is not as highly prioritized as the flash portal. When it comes down to it, it's not just the two portals that build the site, there are many other parts that too require maintenance etc.

eh fair enough. Guess I gotta be patient until the next update, and hope they take in the opinions of the people here before changing things.


A heavy bassline is my kind of silence.

Enjoy progressive house? Then listen to my song.

jrhager84
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-30 18:17:01 Reply

This is just MY option, but:

I think if you are going to give something a zero.....you must write a review. Cause a 0 is pretty damn awful...I'd only gotten 1 review, and went from a 4.5 to a 2.8 in literally 2 hrs because of no-review 0 bombs......and I know my song isn't that bad.....

Just an idea,

-Joel


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Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-30 20:53:28 Reply

At 7/30/08 06:17 PM, jrhager84 wrote: This is just MY option, but:

I think if you are going to give something a zero.....you must write a review. Cause a 0 is pretty damn awful...I'd only gotten 1 review, and went from a 4.5 to a 2.8 in literally 2 hrs because of no-review 0 bombs......and I know my song isn't that bad.....

Just an idea,

-Joel

too bad its been mentioned billions of times already - face it - every concept has already been thought up- well.. obvious ones neways - so if you guys think up an idea and it seems obvious - then you can safely assume its already been suggested, and thought over, so pleae don't suggest it.

jrhager84
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-30 21:23:52 Reply

^ Yeah, that makes TOTAL sense. Just DON'T suggest something under the premise that it MIGHT have been suggested before at some point. Are we supposed to be omnipotent or something?

Get off your high horse......please (added for sincerity) chromo ;-) (winky face, again, for sincerity)

-Joel


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Suspended-3rd-Chord
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-30 21:29:54 Reply

At 7/30/08 09:23 PM, jrhager84 wrote: ^ Yeah, that makes TOTAL sense. Just DON'T suggest something under the premise that it MIGHT have been suggested before at some point. Are we supposed to be omnipotent or something?

No, but you're supposed to read the damn thread.

jrhager84
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-31 04:32:00 Reply

Ya know, posts that some people know CAN be ignored... I mean you're wasting more effort bitchin' about it then just letting it go.....

Also, I thought backseat modding was a no-no?


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Rucklo
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-31 04:37:44 Reply

At 7/31/08 04:32 AM, jrhager84 wrote: Ya know, posts that some people know CAN be ignored... I mean you're wasting more effort bitchin' about it then just letting it go.....

Also, I thought backseat modding was a no-no?

backseatmodding = telling a moderator what to do, he was rather helping YOU out for missing out on stuff.


Wakka wakka

jrhager84
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-31 04:54:08 Reply

Well, it didn't seem as much helpful, as it was condescending. I mean, I've only been on here for what, a month? Yes, the people who've been here eons will have heard this stuff 10,000 times, but telling someone "hey, pretty much EVERY idea has been thought up, so just don't open your mouth" seems a little excessive IMO......I mean that REALLY irks me LOL

Either way, I guess I'm out of ideas... I'll try to find zanier ones that might not have already been thunk'd.......


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Rucklo
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-31 05:09:25 Reply

Most important thing to remember about zerovoters and the problem they cause is this.
Serious business.


Wakka wakka

Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-07-31 08:48:52 Reply

At 7/31/08 05:09 AM, Rucklo wrote: Most important thing to remember about zerovoters and the problem they cause is this.
Serious business.

are you implying that you are a zero voyer rucklo?

oh noez.. the inner structure of newgrounds audio will collapse!

moreso than usual :P
DSMagnum
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 05:21:35 Reply

At 7/27/08 11:55 PM, Bjra wrote: 1) Take away 1-5 scale on all audio. make the review system the only way to give a song a score.

A reviews weight on the total score of the song is determined by whether people think its helpful or useless. A 10 from a person who gave a detailed constructive review will have significantly more weight than a review from a person who said "awesome song"

This will encourage constructive criticism.

Reviews that are useless will have absolutely no weight.

This won't work. If you have the weight of the review based on whether it's helpful or useless, then you'll have constantly fluctuating scores. Another thing is useless reviews having no weight wouldn't work either. If someone gives a good review but someone else doesn't like the song, then they can mark that review as useless and lower the score. Plus, with multiple reviews, they can do it to all the reviews they want and shape the score in their ideal way.

3) If a review is counted as useless, it is deleted and the experience points for it are lost, so 2 experience points are lost for each review deleted. This will encourage nice long reviews, constructive, and good stuff artists will like.

Another flaw. This is practically the same thing as above. If a person doesn't like a song, he can mark all the high scoring reviews as useless. Seeing as it only takes one person to mark a review as useless could mean automatic deletion. If not though, he could get a bunch of friends together and do it. It also works the other way around causing all negative reviews for a song to be deleted.

By losing experience for having reviews deleted would be dumb. If you're maxed at 10 experience points for 5 reviews and you write 10 reviews a day, and they all get deleted, then you're out of 20 experience points. Essentially by doing this you could cause users to actually LOSE experience they had before.

Though it's a good base, it's not completely thought out. Honestly I'm happy with the current system. Why? It's fairly well balanced. You may not agree. "BUT OMG ZERO VOTURRZZZZZ THEY LOWUR URR SCAWR." Everyone seems to complain about zero voters voting on a song as soon as they put a song in the portal, but honestly, do you ever pay attention to the new songs coming in and vote fairly and review every single one? No. What you guys are asking for is to change a system you aren't willing to take any initiative in. That's why it's 'not working'.

Look at the flash portal for example. They have people that vote fairly on flash every day and people never whine. Now look here. We have people that don't care to put any effort into fair voting thus causing 'zero voters to be in charge'. Which brings up another point. You refer to these people as zero bombers. They aren't zero bombers (unless of course they set out to lower your music scores daily). They're fair voters like the rest of us. I'm sure I've downvoted a few songs in my time that have caused people to come here and whine about it.

The review system in my opinion is dumb. The one thing about the current system is that it allows people who are and aren't users to vote on songs. The review system eliminates that. The current system doesn't take much time to use. Just listen to most of the song and then vote. With the review system you have to get picky with it and pull out the reasons as to why it's bad and what to improve on or why you liked it. That's something a lot of users won't take the time to do. With votes, you can accumulate hundreds, even thousands of them that will eventually balance out the score. The average song gets so few reviews as it is that even with a review system you could expect maybe 5 to 10 reviews on a song. That is, if you don't get a bad review first causing you're score to drop to zero.

One of the biggest flaws with the review system is that you expect to be rewarded for doing what you should already be doing. You complain about how no one is giving you reviews when you barely do it yourself. I don't see many songs being reviewed anymore. Maybe 1 to 3 when it's first submitted, but you're lucky to even get that. You shouldn't be motivated with experience to review people. You should be doing it already.

Those are just a few of my thoughts on the system. I tried to word it as best as I can and explain myself in the most understandable manner without any misconceptions, but I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere. I just don't think that we should give you a reason to review. If you think the song can be improved somehow, review it. Don't beg for experience. It's volunteer work, not a job.

meneldil
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 06:50:35 Reply

At 8/2/08 05:21 AM, DSMagnum wrote: commentary that's way too long to read thoroughly ^^

I wanted to add that there's one good thing about the current voting/reviewing system... the fact that voting is anonymous. If it was otherwise, I would be scared to vote 0 on a crappy track, since the author might turn out to be some "OMGLOL AN EVIL ZERO-VOTER I WILL HAVE VENGEANCE" kiddo. As it is now I can just vote as I think fits. And I can give a low score with criticism in a review - cause wise ppl will make use of that info and kiddos won't care about their reviews enough to avenge their tracks :P


Indescriptive topic names have left me in despair!

Suspended-3rd-Chord
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 07:28:21 Reply

At 8/2/08 05:21 AM, DSMagnum wrote:
Another flaw. This is practically the same thing as above. If a person doesn't like a song, he can mark all the high scoring reviews as useless. Seeing as it only takes one person to mark a review as useless could mean automatic deletion. If not though, he could get a bunch of friends together and do it. It also works the other way around causing all negative reviews for a song to be deleted.

The mods are not idiots, if they see a review that is marked and it's a couple paragraphs talking pertinent to the song those reviews that are marked they obviously would not get deleted. people who abuse this moderation can have it revoked.

By losing experience for having reviews deleted would be dumb. If you're maxed at 10 experience points for 5 reviews and you write 10 reviews a day, and they all get deleted, then you're out of 20 experience points. Essentially by doing this you could cause users to actually LOSE experience they had before.

Though it's a good base, it's not completely thought out. Honestly I'm happy with the current system. Why? It's fairly well balanced. You may not agree. "BUT OMG ZERO VOTURRZZZZZ THEY LOWUR URR SCAWR." Everyone seems to complain about zero voters voting on a song as soon as they put a song in the portal, but honestly, do you ever pay attention to the new songs coming in and vote fairly and review every single one? No. What you guys are asking for is to change a system you aren't willing to take any initiative in. That's why it's 'not working'.

Look at the flash portal for example. They have people that vote fairly on flash every day and people never whine. Now look here. We have people that don't care to put any effort into fair voting thus causing 'zero voters to be in charge'. Which brings up another point. You refer to these people as zero bombers. They aren't zero bombers (unless of course they set out to lower your music scores daily). They're fair voters like the rest of us. I'm sure I've downvoted a few songs in my time that have caused people to come here and whine about it.

yeh true,

The review system in my opinion is dumb. The one thing about the current system is that it allows people who are and aren't users to vote on songs. The review system eliminates that. The current system doesn't take much time to use. Just listen to most of the song and then vote. With the review system you have to get picky with it and pull out the reasons as to why it's bad and what to improve on or why you liked it. That's something a lot of users won't take the time to do. With votes, you can accumulate hundreds, even thousands of them that will eventually balance out the score. The average song gets so few reviews as it is that even with a review system you could expect maybe 5 to 10 reviews on a song. That is, if you don't get a bad review first causing you're score to drop to zero.

more time + more effort in turn for more reviews and more accurate scores? i'll take it. not does it only encourage more people to leave comments, reviewers will have to be more harsh instead of just handing out 9s and 10s to everyone in hope that they'll five them back. In turn, less fanboys- but a community that will recieve more criticism and actual written comments, which I personally like better.

But for the reasons you've given, it gives less power to the (lazy) users of this site. I know it wouldn't work. But I wouldnt mind seeing it happen.

One of the biggest flaws with the review system is that you expect to be rewarded for doing what you should already be doing. You complain about how no one is giving you reviews when you barely do it yourself. I don't see many songs being reviewed anymore. Maybe 1 to 3 when it's first submitted, but you're lucky to even get that. You shouldn't be motivated with experience to review people. You should be doing it already.

yeh man,


Those are just a few of my thoughts on the system. I tried to word it as best as I can and explain myself in the most understandable manner without any misconceptions, but I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere. I just don't think that we should give you a reason to review. If you think the song can be improved somehow, review it. Don't beg for experience. It's volunteer work, not a job.

youre good bud. what about getting experience from reviewing tho? it takes a minute to open 5 random flashes and vote on them. Reviews, you somewhat more earn that experience.

Kr1z
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 08:18:47 Reply

Is there anyone that knows statistics/math in here?

1) If u want a score to be representative, the more voters the better.
More voters in the AP can easily be arranged by giving ppl exp.points by voting for audio.

2) If u want a score to be less dependent from extremes (the abusing 0votes):
Then u dont take the arithmetical mean as a score.. You take the median. Basic statistics, ppl.

3) If u still wanna use the arithmetical mean as a representative score, u should FILTER out the extremes. Take out the 10% lowest votes, and the 10% highest votes. Extremes (rare 0's) should NOT influence the score.

Its not that hard is it?

Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 10:11:53 Reply

At 8/2/08 08:18 AM, Kr1z wrote: Is there anyone that knows statistics/math in here?

1) If u want a score to be representative, the more voters the better.
More voters in the AP can easily be arranged by giving ppl exp.points by voting for audio.

2) If u want a score to be less dependent from extremes (the abusing 0votes):
Then u dont take the arithmetical mean as a score.. You take the median. Basic statistics, ppl.

3) If u still wanna use the arithmetical mean as a representative score, u should FILTER out the extremes. Take out the 10% lowest votes, and the 10% highest votes. Extremes (rare 0's) should NOT influence the score.

Its not that hard is it?

liljim is gonna wail on you so hard.. honestly, does everyone here think the admins are idiots? Liljim coded the audio portal from scratch, if I were him id just be shaking my head every time someone belittled his attempts all these years..

Kr1z
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 12:52:41 Reply

At 8/2/08 10:11 AM, Chronamut wrote:

:Liljim coded the audio portal from scratch

My respect goes to Liljim

Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 16:57:57 Reply

At 8/2/08 12:52 PM, Kr1z wrote:
At 8/2/08 10:11 AM, Chronamut wrote: Liljim coded the audio portal from scratch
My respect goes to Liljim

bah - half you noobs prolly dont even know who he is.

Kr1z
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 17:04:46 Reply

indeed.

DSMagnum
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 21:49:13 Reply

At 8/2/08 07:28 AM, Suspended-3rd-Chord wrote:
At 8/2/08 05:21 AM, DSMagnum wrote: Those are just a few of my thoughts on the system. I tried to word it as best as I can and explain myself in the most understandable manner without any misconceptions, but I'm sure I made a mistake somewhere. I just don't think that we should give you a reason to review. If you think the song can be improved somehow, review it. Don't beg for experience. It's volunteer work, not a job.
youre good bud. what about getting experience from reviewing tho? it takes a minute to open 5 random flashes and vote on them. Reviews, you somewhat more earn that experience.

After a while, gaining mass experience becomes almost useless. Once you hit a certain level, you gain .01 voting power every 10, then 20, then 40, then 100, and so on experience. When people realize that gaining more experience that will have very little effect yet takes so much effort to get, they may not even bother reviewing. Still, as I said, you should already be reviewing people. If you want to be rewarded for reviews, join that site Rucklo pointed out a while ago where you get PAID to do it.

jrhager84
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-02 22:06:03 Reply

At 8/2/08 04:57 PM, Chronamut wrote:
At 8/2/08 12:52 PM, Kr1z wrote:
At 8/2/08 10:11 AM, Chronamut wrote: Liljim coded the audio portal from scratch
My respect goes to Liljim
bah - half you noobs prolly dont even know who he is.

Your superiority complex literally scares me.....


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Kr1z
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 04:16:20 Reply

At 8/2/08 10:06 PM, jrhager84 wrote:
At 8/2/08 10:11 AM, Chronamut wrote:
bah - half you noobs prolly dont even know who he is.
Your superiority complex literally scares me.....

Yeh same here :s

I mean, im writing music, and im posting it here.
Thats it, i dont know who coded this site...
like.. no one told me..but I guess I'm a noob :(

jrhager84
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 06:43:54 Reply

At 8/3/08 04:16 AM, Kr1z wrote:
At 8/2/08 10:06 PM, jrhager84 wrote:
At 8/2/08 10:11 AM, Chronamut wrote:
bah - half you noobs prolly dont even know who he is.
Your superiority complex literally scares me.....
Yeh same here :s

I mean, im writing music, and im posting it here.
Thats it, i dont know who coded this site...
like.. no one told me..but I guess I'm a noob :(

Don't worry man, that guy fuckin' irks me hardcore. His elitist attitude is what contributes to the crap that's on here... Apparently if you haven't wasted 10 years of your life on here, you're less than a human on here.......

Oh wise and omnipotent one, what do we do now? Please chrom, enlighten us with you uber-l337 ways of NG......*bows*


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 09:13:47 Reply

At 8/3/08 06:43 AM, jrhager84 wrote:
At 8/3/08 04:16 AM, Kr1z wrote:
At 8/2/08 10:06 PM, jrhager84 wrote:
At 8/2/08 10:11 AM, Chronamut wrote:
bah - half you noobs prolly dont even know who he is.
Your superiority complex literally scares me.....

lol good for you.


Yeh same here :s

I mean, im writing music, and im posting it here.
Thats it, i dont know who coded this site...
like.. no one told me..but I guess I'm a noob :(

perhaps you should get to know the community a bit more then instead of hiding behind the "oh im a noob pardon my ignorance and unwillingness to learn about anything here" instead of whining.


Don't worry man, that guy fuckin' irks me hardcore.

whine whine whine.

His elitist attitude is what contributes to the crap that's on here... Apparently if you haven't wasted 10 years of your life on here, you're less than a human on here.......

interesting concept - but no. And believe me - I cant take all the credit for all the crap that's on here - your flaming of other members surely contributes to it as well. I don't recall calling YOU specifically a noob - yet you directly call me elitist - who's the asshole now?

Oh wise and omnipotent one, what do we do now? Please chrom, enlighten us with you uber-l337 ways of NG......*bows*

you read the fucking rules, perhaps read up on some of the history on newgrounds - or just ask general questions - we'd be glad to tell you things you know.

lol.. and for the record, anyone that takes things seriously on the internet - IS a noob - good job. If it makes you feel better - you can downrate all my songs :P

Kr1z
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 16:37:36 Reply

"my ignorance and unwillingness to learn about anything here"

Honestly WTF?

Mich
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 16:52:41 Reply

I think we should all just calm down a bit. There's no need to start a flame war here, we all know, n00b or not, that zerovoting is a problem.

I assume if we do enough effort to get to the attention of the admins, eventually there will come an 'audio portal evolution'. But by just keeping on fightin about the subject at the BBS, we aren't going to get any further. I think if you want your music to be appreciated you should just 'advertise it', let people know about your music. zero-bombing won't stop from itself, I'd say live with it for now, we all know the score isn't representative for the quality of the song, the review score is a little more.

And about the elitist and noob things... geez, guys, you're all (?) older than me, sure, chron's been here for longer, he may know more about the community.... and Kr1z isn't on as long as him, but that doesn't mean he's a noob (stupid word btw). Just communicate and respoect eachother, we're all humans, act like your age. (I know I'm the little kid here, trying to seem mature, whatever...)

but now, just relax and try to find a proper solution to the problem together, in a mature way.
If we've found a good solution, we can pm liljim about it, and maybe he'll take considerations.

now, sorry about any grammatical or spelling errors

Parkerman1700
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 16:56:38 Reply

Someone with voting power of at least like 15 votes just gave every single thing that I've submitted a 0, and now all of my audio submissions are weighed down.

The only song that can become popular now is the new ones, and he'll find me anyway.

I'm really angry.

Mich
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 16:58:49 Reply

At 8/3/08 04:56 PM, Parkerman1700 wrote: Someone with voting power of at least like 15 votes just gave every single thing that I've submitted a 0, and now all of my audio submissions are weighed down.

The only song that can become popular now is the new ones, and he'll find me anyway.

I'm really angry.

This thread is not made to whine about that. sorry, but it's the truth.

one thing you did right: you didn't make a thread about it.

Parkerman1700
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 17:01:08 Reply

Oh well.

LiquidEvolution
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 17:12:21 Reply

At 8/3/08 04:52 PM, MICHhimself wrote: I think if you want your music to be appreciated you should just 'advertise it', let people know about your music.

Whoring your music gets the attention of zero bombers. Not to mention, if everyone goes all out advertising their song, it'll just be like nails on a chalkboard. Much like all the zero bombing threads.
The only solution is: just deal with it.


yea

Mich
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-03 17:22:42 Reply

At 8/3/08 05:12 PM, LiquidEvolution wrote:
At 8/3/08 04:52 PM, MICHhimself wrote: I think if you want your music to be appreciated you should just 'advertise it', let people know about your music.
Whoring your music gets the attention of zero bombers. Not to mention, if everyone goes all out advertising their song, it'll just be like nails on a chalkboard. Much like all the zero bombing threads.
The only solution is: just deal with it.

I ment advertising with peopl you know, not just in public, but yeah dealing with it will be the best for now.