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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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sorohanro
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2012-12-22 08:46:10 Reply

This thread should be listed in the rules, and the forum should be optimized to pop this thread on "zero", "voting", "zero voting", "zero bombing"...etc, because most of us don't spell zerovoting, zerobombing, zerovotersmakemeangry...etc

I was searching for this thread for quite a while.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2012-12-22 11:59:27 Reply

WHY DON'T PEOPLE LOVE MY BLAND AND UNINTERESTING SONGS THIS SYSTEM IS SO UNFAIR TOM FULP DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE AUDIO PORTAL.

samulis
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2012-12-22 12:47:34 Reply

At 12/22/12 11:59 AM, Buoy wrote: WHY DON'T PEOPLE LOVE MY BLAND AND UNINTERESTING SONGS THIS SYSTEM IS SO UNFAIR TOM FULP DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE AUDIO PORTAL.

lol

for me, it's "why don't people like my niche and not electronic songs this society is so unfair tom fulp doesn't care about dem orchestral composerz!"

I find that the larger the base of people looking at whatever it is (with the exception of the art portal, where most people browsing it seem to at least have that artistic ability to set aside differences and take pride in finding a good piece of work and promoting it through positive voting), the more even the vote is. The only way to fix this issue is to get more people listening to the audio portal... just like how thousands upon thousands of people watch even the most average flash, you need at least a few thousand people to listen to your audio for the vote to actually approximate a reality... Unfortunately, not many people listen to the audio portal just to listen around. Most seem to find a select group of artists they adore and stick with that, or just pop in every once in a while to find a track for their game/film.

I personally think the best way to solve this is not a change to the voting system, but what can be done to draw more people to that voting system so it will balance out properly... be it making it so voting on audio counts for your daily experience deposit, or putting ads up to check out the audio portal that links to the portal mainpage, or something.


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BrokenDeck
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2012-12-22 19:34:00 Reply

I've got an idea for the next April fools day joke.

Every song on the audio portal get's it's score reset to 0 :P

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2012-12-22 19:43:46 Reply

At 12/22/12 07:34 PM, BrokenDeck wrote: I've got an idea for the next April fools day joke.

Every song on the audio portal get's it's score reset to 0 :P

I foresee a NG civil war if this ever happens... but great idea, Luis might like it...

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-07-15 17:55:47 Reply

Necroing this thread because as a new guy here it is very annoying (and it's been like this for a while apparently).

Apparently i don't have the right to complain about it but you guys have to enable the rating only for reviewers or at least make people who put 0, 1 or 2 do reviews so they can say why they hate it and if he says "it's crap" you know it's a dumb guy but at least you know who he is.

I'm fairly new and i don't have many views/dl (and i don't try to have many to be honest i just look for reviews). I got lucky enough to have one guy doing a review and scouting me in my first 2 days here and some other guy doing a review on my new sound design that i posted yesterday.
But i'm still annoyed by the 0s without explanation. Honestly i compensate it with 5 rating myself because it's a dick move too but fuck it really i don't want 2 stars on my stuff when review give me 5 or 4.5, it looks terrible.

But i'd rather have people explaining their rating to me even if less people rate me.

ulfusNG
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-07-16 01:56:30 Reply

I give everyone 5's in my reviews, the 5 means nothing, I give them a separate real vote, though if you read my reviews you should be able to tell the vote you deserve.


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Valon129
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-07-16 03:25:10 Reply

At 7/16/13 01:56 AM, ulfusNG wrote: I give everyone 5's in my reviews, the 5 means nothing, I give them a separate real vote, though if you read my reviews you should be able to tell the vote you deserve.

And why would people do that? That's just a move to look nice to everyone so you have nice reviews yourself and being an ass behind. Why not being legit on the grade in the first place.

Anyways the people who reviewed me did say good things about my stuff so i guess they didn't downvoted me after.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-07-17 12:41:58 Reply

I like the topic review for a review! Fair enough.
But why can not we remove the vote system and just base focus on review votes?!
then we can give people advice and tips on how they can get better at and what was not good at all and so on.

Then they're not 0 bomb without giving a comment why they returns 0. But yes it will certainly many comment from "non grown up people" But then you know the person you can ignore without bothering you.
I think newgrounds should remove vote system completely. Audio portal is the worst, good example non respect there at all.
We force the people to start using the keyboard for typing.


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wulfsok
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-07-18 04:26:58 Reply

At 9/24/12 08:03 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote:
At 9/24/12 07:35 PM, jpbear wrote: Now that this thread is revived ill bring up something that ive brought up a million times before without a proper response from anyone,

whats wrong with a system that alerts mods when someone dishes out 30 or 40 zeroes within a 12 or 24 hour period?
I don't remember what was said about this idea, but I'm pretty sure one of the staff shot it down once before. If you want to suggest it, send a PM to Tom, as a lot of work has been done on the mod tools, he might still be open to suggestions.

Personally, I don't like the idea, because I don't see scores being something people should be getting all gungho over. Score means nothing, the reviews are what matter. I'm one of the people that voted we just remove the numbered vote system entirely.

i gotta add, for a long time i used to breeze over audio tracks that had super low ratings. dunno why, i guess its just an obsession with numbers. but after getting 0bombed alot the numbers lost meaning.

however your rating directly determines your place on the list. It's pretty sucky when there's so much good music at the bottom of the list, as with the top of it. It's hard not to see a problem with that.

but then again music is a subjective thing. maybe the "0bombers" are really country music lovers who want to destroy EDM by discouraging new artists? under the TOA a difference of opinion is totally fine. hell, even the US constitution protects a difference of opinion.

how about how forums work? you post some audio, it goes to the new release list like usual. then theres another list, called the "Recently Engaged" list or something, that automatically updates depending on recently reviewed material. IE, my track gets reviewed, i get to the top of the list, and am gradually bumped down. there should also be a number of reviews next to the track title for those who want to scrutinize at a glance.

i dunno, i feel that system would accurately represent both the big names on NG, as well as the ones who are not-so-big/emerging. i havent suggested this to tom, but it might make for some good food for thought.

Sielumetsien
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-07-18 10:39:14 Reply

At 7/16/13 03:25 AM, Valon129 wrote:
At 7/16/13 01:56 AM, ulfusNG wrote: I give everyone 5's in my reviews, the 5 means nothing, I give them a separate real vote, though if you read my reviews you should be able to tell the vote you deserve.
And why would people do that? That's just a move to look nice to everyone so you have nice reviews yourself and being an ass behind. Why not being legit on the grade in the first place.

Well dick ass. That's actually how this audio community works (yes, those who participates in this forum often). Unless you have never done any good favor in your life, you wouldn't spit this line out carelessly.

Anyways the people who reviewed me did say good things about my stuff so i guess they didn't downvoted me after.

And what ifI give you a down vote because they're really suck, which deserve to get downvoted? What's your reaction?

Misanthrum
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-10-05 12:18:59 Reply

At 6/10/08 08:00 PM, Rucklo wrote: - You'll become a much happier person when you stop caring about the scores. There are many other ways of exposure on this site. If you're good, soon enough you will get discovered.

so you're saying the unnecessary poor scores have no effect on where the song goes?


rules aren't what keep me in abidance.

Yoshiii343
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-10-05 12:27:15 Reply

At 10/5/13 12:18 PM, Misanthrum wrote: so you're saying the unnecessary poor scores have no effect on where the song goes?

If you're talking about charts, it does.
If you're talking about your growth as a producer/artist/musician, no. Reviews are where it's at.

Misanthrum
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2013-10-05 12:38:41 Reply

At 10/5/13 12:27 PM, Yoshiii343 wrote: If you're talking about charts, it does.
If you're talking about your growth as a producer/artist/musician, no. Reviews are where it's at.

got it, i'll just get over them then. stressing about a low rating that isn't even genuine is wasted energy.


rules aren't what keep me in abidance.

johnnyq1233
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-07-06 01:50:18 Reply

At 6/10/08 08:30 PM, Nav wrote: THANK YOU FOR THIS EPIC THREAD SIR!

Bookmark'd for future use!

I've already pulled all my music from your service and If I see any of MY work remotely on here you will be contacted by my Attorney!
Please change your policy to avoid any litigation!
JQ


Sorry for the other post.. internet is as slow as some people.lol

NekoMika
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-07-06 01:54:44 Reply

At 7/6/14 01:50 AM, johnnyq1233 wrote: I've already pulled all my music from your service and If I see any of MY work remotely on here you will be contacted by my Attorney!
Please change your policy to avoid any litigation!
JQ

You really are a dense person. People caught on here uploading the work of other people are dealt with in a short time. You sir, are a dunce.


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Troisnyx
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-07-06 10:52:39 Reply

At 7/6/14 01:54 AM, SCTE3 wrote:
At 7/6/14 01:50 AM, johnnyq1233 wrote: I've already pulled all my music from your service and If I see any of MY work remotely on here you will be contacted by my Attorney!
Please change your policy to avoid any litigation!
JQ

Yeah, because threatening people with legal action for something others did is TOTALLY the fault of NG, isn't it?

There are enough legal practitioners and students here to know better.

NekoMika
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-07-06 11:22:45 Reply

At 7/6/14 10:52 AM, Troisnyx wrote:
Yeah, because threatening people with legal action for something others did is TOTALLY the fault of NG, isn't it?

There are enough legal practitioners and students here to know better.

Given how much of a shitfest they were tossing last night. I doubt they even care. They just think because they're older that they should get auto-respect and that people totally need a reason to vote 0 aside from "I don't like your music or your music is not good." They also tried to invoke the "hurr hurr, you have no music or your music is different from mine so stfu" shenanigans.


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MegaMettaurX
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 17:21:29 Reply

Just got linked to this thread, and that initial post ain't doing shit for me. I'm not new here. I've utilized those threads. I really shouldn't have to basically beg for a review to get one. ( I didn't even have to up until like 2 years ago, but I took a break from music around that time frame)

Back in 2008-2010, I didn't even have to post in this forum, feedback was natural. It's a shame it won't be that way again. I'm not providing music for other producers. I don't want to ask the next "musician" what they think about my music/production. It's my art, not theirs. If I'm having trouble with a production and need help, sure I'll post about it for feedback. But it's still kind of pointless to ask another artist what they think about some shit they didn't make.

We need to find a way to encourage casual listeners to review, the ones without an ear for production so they aren't listening for flaws in a track, that's not what music is all about. Which is why I hate using that R4R thread. I got shit for telling the guy I liked the song or giving a one line review. I shouldn't have to pull some bullshit out of my ass and tell them why I like it. All you need to know is that I enjoyed it enough to take time out of my day and review your track AND rate it.

I don't know if the majority of you feel the same way as I do, and quite frankly I don't even care. Ban me from here if you want, but It's apparent this website isn't the place for me and my music anymore.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 17:43:31 Reply

So what you want is a bunch of droney "OMG I LOVE THIS" comments from casual listeners?
What's the point in that?

Progressing in music is all about picking out flaws and fixing them to better oneself.

Constructive critique and feedback is what a review section is for. That's what a review is supposed to outline.
If the listener has nothing to critique and just writes an appreciative comment praising the piece, then awesome.

But why reject the alternative?

Back-From-Purgatory
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 18:13:02 Reply

At 8/31/14 05:21 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote: We need to find a way to encourage casual listeners to review, the ones without an ear for production so they aren't listening for flaws in a track, that's not what music is all about.

So you want a bunch of people to mindlessly stroke your ego?

Sorry, but that's not how reviews work... And that's not how you improve as an artist. That's how you get a fat head about making shitty music.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 18:42:12 Reply

At 8/31/14 06:13 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote:
At 8/31/14 05:21 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote: We need to find a way to encourage casual listeners to review, the ones without an ear for production so they aren't listening for flaws in a track, that's not what music is all about.
So you want a bunch of people to mindlessly stroke your ego?

Sorry, but that's not how reviews work... And that's not how you improve as an artist. That's how you get a fat head about making shitty music.

No, I want someone who genuinely likes the music or dislikes the music for what it is, not how it's made. That is how reviews work, and that's how they should be. It's not an ego thing. I'm not gonna go to an established producer and say "Hey man, you really messed up 'x'track at around x:xx" It doesn't matter. It would be almost exactly like me going to an artist and saying their picture sucks because there's a speck of green in their cloud of blue. I wanna know how you feel about the song, not about the work I put into it.

Like I said, there was a time where I didn't have to beg someone to say something about my track in exchange for a review on this website. It sucks we're no longer there, and that's too bad. and it really sucks to be forced to say something about a track you really didn't want to say anything about just to get someone to review your stuff. What kind of system is that?

It's like if painters were like "I'll say something about your painting if you say something about mine." Who the hell does that shit, realistically?

And yes, I have reviewed other people's work without the expectation of getting one back.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 18:44:17 Reply

At 8/31/14 05:43 PM, LunyAlex wrote: So what you want is a bunch of droney "OMG I LOVE THIS" comments from casual listeners?
What's the point in that?

Progressing in music is all about picking out flaws and fixing them to better oneself.

Constructive critique and feedback is what a review section is for. That's what a review is supposed to outline.
If the listener has nothing to critique and just writes an appreciative comment praising the piece, then awesome.

But why reject the alternative?

But why does that even matter if your fans like what you do? who the fuck cares what other producers think. You don't see Kanye west, or any of those top dogs like "I wonder what P. Diddy, or Armin van Burren have to say about my brand new track". It's "I wonder if people will like this." You guys got your convictions all fucked up.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 19:09:07 Reply

At 8/31/14 06:44 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote:
At 8/31/14 05:43 PM, LunyAlex wrote: So what you want is a bunch of droney "OMG I LOVE THIS" comments from casual listeners?
What's the point in that?

Progressing in music is all about picking out flaws and fixing them to better oneself.

Constructive critique and feedback is what a review section is for. That's what a review is supposed to outline.
If the listener has nothing to critique and just writes an appreciative comment praising the piece, then awesome.

But why reject the alternative?
But why does that even matter if your fans like what you do? who the fuck cares what other producers think. You don't see Kanye west, or any of those top dogs like "I wonder what P. Diddy, or Armin van Burren have to say about my brand new track". It's "I wonder if people will like this." You guys got your convictions all fucked up.

Then leave the game. Get the fuck out of here if you can't accept the fact. One lesser egomaniac the better for NG community. Stop pulling strawman on this problem. What's wrong with criticism? Can't accept it? Just simple get the fuck out here and stop insulting people who were trying to help you.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 19:11:58 Reply

At 8/31/14 05:21 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote:

You're kind of admitting that you make flaws in your track, but don't want anybody to acknowledge them. This won't do you any good as a musician who wants to improve on their work. For someone who does it as a hobby, there's no shame in having an imperfect or even bad track, man.

There is also a difference between subjective taste and poor production. If you think that the viewpoints of an audio engineer or a seasoned musician are pointless, you're just not going to appeal to the general audience as much. I can respect the quality of work put into a song and understand why so people like it while at the same time not personally liking it myself.

The R4R thread does not want people to write brief one liner reviews so they can score an easy extra review in return. The review guidelines in general encourages everyone to list the things they liked, the things they didn't like, and how they can improve upon them. Although I am extremely grateful anybody would take the time out of their day to actually sit down, listen to my stuff, and write anything down at all about it, one-sentence comments praising someone's work is hardly a review in my opinion. They're comments. And thoughtful critiques aren't bullshit, dude.

I don't know if this is just you waving your middle finger in the air before you walk out the door, but you should probably change your attitude or find a different hobby, because you're not going to go far with this under that kind of mentality.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 19:42:55 Reply

At 8/31/14 07:11 PM, JoshuaHughes wrote:
At 8/31/14 05:21 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote:
You're kind of admitting that you make flaws in your track, but don't want anybody to acknowledge them. This won't do you any good as a musician who wants to improve on their work. For someone who does it as a hobby, there's no shame in having an imperfect or even bad track, man.

There is also a difference between subjective taste and poor production. If you think that the viewpoints of an audio engineer or a seasoned musician are pointless, you're just not going to appeal to the general audience as much. I can respect the quality of work put into a song and understand why so people like it while at the same time not personally liking it myself.

The R4R thread does not want people to write brief one liner reviews so they can score an easy extra review in return. The review guidelines in general encourages everyone to list the things they liked, the things they didn't like, and how they can improve upon them. Although I am extremely grateful anybody would take the time out of their day to actually sit down, listen to my stuff, and write anything down at all about it, one-sentence comments praising someone's work is hardly a review in my opinion. They're comments. And thoughtful critiques aren't bullshit, dude.

I don't know if this is just you waving your middle finger in the air before you walk out the door, but you should probably change your attitude or find a different hobby, because you're not going to go far with this under that kind of mentality.

That's not what I'm saying at all. But that R4R seems like it's only for point out flaws in peoples tracks. I'm not gonna listen for flaws in your track, unless it's obviously bad. Your style is not a flaw. It's your style. Music is not about pointing out flaws. I got shit for reviewing someone's song in R4R just because I said I liked the track. I don't need to tell you why I like the track. If I like it, I like it. And I rated them a 5 because I didn't have anything else to say. This is the shit I'm talking about.

If you reviewed my track and just put "I like this, this is great" or anything along those lines, and voted (an honest number, it doesn't have to be a full 5. It lets me know as an artist that my STYLE is working. If I feel like I need something to be changed up, I'll ask you guys about it.

You can even say "I don't like this, It's not for me" and rate it low. I shouldn't be forced to say some shit in exchange for a review.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm still gonna continue doing me and reviewing people when ever I decide to check out the beautiful Ideas some of you guys have.

I'll admit, right now I've been finding most of my inspiration from professional artists, studing their engineering techniques to the best of my abilities with my ears alone, and checking tutorials and all that.

I know I might come off as negative towards this idea of networking. This is a great system, but the stipulations are kind of stupid. While getting reviews from our peers isn't a bad thing, we as artists should be ENCOURAGING casual listeners to review our stuff. I have no clue why any of you artists would even have the audacity to just write that idea off, and tell me "I just want to inflate my ego". Music is art. Art is made for the people. We're not a secret society. We want to be heard by regular people who just want a good song to listen to, who don't spend their entire first listen on the track like "How did they do that with the synth!? How did they do that with the vocals!?" We should be encouraging those guys who are like 'Holy fuck this is SICK!!! or HOLY FUCK DUDE YOU SUCK, QUIT MAKING MUSIC!" to tell us how they feel, not as a musician, but as a consumer.

This website was always content made by people for the people. The audio portal isn't a separate section. We're all Newgrounds. Those guys who review the flash movies? They're casual watchers, for the most part. We can have a piece of that support too, if we actually cared.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 19:52:29 Reply

At 8/31/14 07:42 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote: This website was always content made by people for the people. The audio portal isn't a separate section. We're all Newgrounds. Those guys who review the flash movies? They're casual watchers, for the most part. We can have a piece of that support too, if we actually cared.

The reason people were getting mad at you on the R4R thread is because you were posting what appeared to be low-effort reviews in an effort to get more people to review your tracks. I don't think that anyone is specifically stipulating that you pick out tons of problems in tracks you like - just that you put some EFFORT into the reviews that you write.

Look at someone like Step - he can write like 10 paragraphs on a track he gives a 10/10 to, just to write about every single thing that he likes. Reviews like those are helpful because they lets you know what you're doing right, and they show that you actually spent time listening to the track.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 20:22:01 Reply

At 8/31/14 07:52 PM, johnfn wrote:
At 8/31/14 07:42 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote: This website was always content made by people for the people. The audio portal isn't a separate section. We're all Newgrounds. Those guys who review the flash movies? They're casual watchers, for the most part. We can have a piece of that support too, if we actually cared.
The reason people were getting mad at you on the R4R thread is because you were posting what appeared to be low-effort reviews in an effort to get more people to review your tracks. I don't think that anyone is specifically stipulating that you pick out tons of problems in tracks you like - just that you put some EFFORT into the reviews that you write.

Look at someone like Step - he can write like 10 paragraphs on a track he gives a 10/10 to, just to write about every single thing that he likes. Reviews like those are helpful because they lets you know what you're doing right, and they show that you actually spent time listening to the track.

Why do I care that someone wants to write a 10 paragraph essay on why they do or don't like my style? seriously. An artist doesn't need that shit unless they specifically ask for it. You're missing my point entirely, so I'm done with this conversation.

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DamienFleisch
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 20:33:00 Reply

+1 johnfn

I think you're kind of missing the point of reviews, MegaMatteur. Honestly, I don't see much of a difference between leaving a review that says "I like this" with 4 stars and just giving it a 4 star rating and walking away. Yeah, a short nice review is cool now and again but what do you learn from that?

And honestly man, that Kanye example is pretty poor. He may not be asking P. Diddy for advice, but there is a whole team of producers and label execs, I'd wager at least 6, who listen to it a dozen times, take notes on what to fix, make those changes and then repeat that process for weeks. Don't discount the value of what someone else hears in your music.

When I saw your first thread that got locked I felt a little bad for you and listened to some of your music. I was going to leave you a good review with some serious thoughts. But everything you have said here has made it clear that you don't want to hear them so I won't bother taking the time to type them out.

LunyAlex
LunyAlex
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2014-08-31 21:14:11 Reply

At 8/31/14 06:44 PM, MegaMettaurX wrote:
At 8/31/14 05:43 PM, LunyAlex wrote: So what you want is a bunch of droney "OMG I LOVE THIS" comments from casual listeners?
What's the point in that?

Progressing in music is all about picking out flaws and fixing them to better oneself.

Constructive critique and feedback is what a review section is for. That's what a review is supposed to outline.
If the listener has nothing to critique and just writes an appreciative comment praising the piece, then awesome.

But why reject the alternative?
But why does that even matter if your fans like what you do? who the fuck cares what other producers think. You don't see Kanye west, or any of those top dogs like "I wonder what P. Diddy, or Armin van Burren have to say about my brand new track". It's "I wonder if people will like this." You guys got your convictions all fucked up.

We're not Kayne West, P. Diddy or Armin Van Burren...

...Thank God...

Most of us are small musicians trying to get a few gigs, hopefully one day get their big break, etc.
This is a growing process.