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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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Centrist
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 10:11:01 Reply

At 10/25/09 07:35 AM, EoD696 wrote: My ass. The truth is, there are thousands of people that come here, strictly for the audio portal, and twice if not thrice as much just for the flash portal.

I like you. You make good posts.

EmperorCharlemagne
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 10:48:34 Reply

It's almost like EoD is under the assumption that this is the only place on the internet on which people like me (as well as other audio folks) advertise my music. Like I don't upload my music here, and then link other people on other forums (on which it is easier to grab someone's attention) to this place so they can hear what I got. Gotta upload your music somewhere.

I mean, you guys DO go to other forums, right?

Right?

Zerovoting and Exposure.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 12:13:35 Reply

Yeah Pretty much...

I will brag in the other forums

Zerovoting and Exposure.

EoD696
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 12:51:01 Reply

At 10/27/09 10:48 AM, EmperorCharlemagne wrote: It's almost like EoD is under the assumption that this is the only place on the internet on which people like me (as well as other audio folks) advertise my music. Like I don't upload my music here, and then link other people on other forums (on which it is easier to grab someone's attention) to this place so they can hear what I got. Gotta upload your music somewhere.

I mean, you guys DO go to other forums, right?

Right?

I'm not saying everyone comes here and only here, but I know that those people are here, otherwise this thread wouldn't be. Who fights for improvement on an internet community that's screwed up, if they know of better ones to go to? Thats just silly...

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 12:54:39 Reply

At 10/27/09 12:51 PM, EoD696 wrote: I'm not saying everyone comes here and only here, but I know that those people are here, otherwise this thread wouldn't be. Who fights for improvement on an internet community that's screwed up, if they know of better ones to go to? Thats just silly...

I'm just thinking of ways to fix it. True, there are many other websites where our music can be appreciated more, since Newgrounds is all about flash, but I'd rather help solve the problem than run away from it.


Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 13:13:28 Reply

I don't like pointing out problems if I don't have solutions. So here's my suggestions for improvement...some of them, if it were I making the calls, I'd scrap the portal, and work an entirely different GUI from the ground up using the same database, and base that GUI off an alternate system that has proven itself in a time tested environment against a comparable user mass, like Soundclick or GarageBand or the Sony Acid site.

First, force flash artists to use audio portal music. Sure, they can utilize whatever music they like, but that music has to be submitted and approved into the audio portal first. This way, you avoid copyright infringements much more thoroughly, and you improve traffic throughout the site and cooperation between the two portals.

Second, the featured artist is much more important than that silly piece of eye candy asshole robot visualization for the top 5...not to mention the fact that your featured artist should be more important than the top 5 most voted on submissions of the week. Switch the two around. And maybe make it so the featured artist is a voted on sort of deal, with a poll in this forum. That's just a personal thing, I believe much stronger in democratically elected recognition than staff forced to bear additional burdens, like finding a good artist to feature that hasn't been recently.

Best of all time...scrap it. Like Mr. Fulp said in his imaged reply to the box man, its a self fulfilling prophecy, no matter how you spin it. Show the top 5-10 submissions for each genre (one iframe, with a dropdown box to select genres), if any submissions are there for longer than a month, remove them from the capability of being on that list.

Do the same deal with the top submissions, for the most recent submissions (iframe list of 5-10 submissions, differentiated by genre, selected by a dropdown box). This way when I'm checking out new stuff, I don't somehow stumble upon a 13 year old american girls idea of what russian polka should be, and people get longer exposure to the viewers that might actually be interested in their style of music.

Publicize contests. Officially organized or not, contests are a huge fuel for the fire in many musicians in this place, and such should be capitalized on, in the front page. Offer awards for these people, and front page exposure. Notice the and, not or. Front page exposure is everything in this place, because when you get down to it the system is FUBAR, the front page is all that anyone could ever hope for as far as exposure is concerned. The rewards could include anything from multiple votes per day, to displaying a pic or banner in place of one of the ads. Its whatever kind of arbitrary, in house benefit can be mustered, but its something that signifies a since of accomplishment and doesn't eat into the websites revenue, because we all know its all about the benjamins.

That's all I got for now. You do those things, it will make life easier for everyone, except the poor sap who gets stuck implementing the changes.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 13:57:02 Reply

At 10/27/09 01:13 PM, EoD696 wrote: First, force flash artists to use audio portal music. Sure, they can utilize whatever music they like, but that music has to be submitted and approved into the audio portal first. This way, you avoid copyright infringements much more thoroughly, and you improve traffic throughout the site and cooperation between the two portals.

What I don't agree with you in is forcing flash authors to use music from the AP. This could cause many problems like not being able to make music videos, and loads of people ranting throughout the flash forum. It would increase exposure in the AP, but I don't think it's the best way to do it.

IMO, exposure isn't the main problem. What needs removing is zero-bombing (and if you look in the page before this one at the bottom, you'll see my solution to removing zero-bombing). By doing that, the audio portal automatically gains more exposure. Many artists have given up making music due to the fact that their songs have low scores (obviously because of zero-bombers). If there are no zero-bombers, people would gain more self-confidence, submit more songs to the AP without giving up and therefore increasing the amount of artists on the AP.

Another simple way to gain more exposure is to fix those links at the bottom of the page, as I said earlier. They can give a much clearer view of all the songs from recent to oldest, and by doing my idea of refreshing the recent tracks list every week, and by doing my recommendations idea, not only will it remove zero-bombing almost completely, but it will also increase publicity in the AP, and make the Top 5 be more fairly chosen.

I think that by doing the above, zero-bombers and lack of exposure wouldn't be problems anymore, and it can be done without completely redesigning the AP as you suggested.


Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 14:01:04 Reply

At 10/27/09 01:57 PM, Supersteph54 wrote: Many artists have given up making music due to the fact that their songs have low scores (obviously because of zero-bombers).

Really? How many? Any examples?

Every time I stumble on someone's userpage and read through their various posts, there will be one (possibly a couple) stating that they're:
a) Giving up music
or
b) Leaving newgrounds for a different website

I haven't come across ONE person who wasn't still submitting music. Sure they might leave for a month, but they'll be back. They'll always be back.

It's like when I try to give up WoW.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-27 14:34:41 Reply

At 10/27/09 02:01 PM, jarrydn wrote:
At 10/27/09 01:57 PM, Supersteph54 wrote: Many artists have given up making music due to the fact that their songs have low scores (obviously because of zero-bombers).
Really? How many? Any examples?

Every time I stumble on someone's userpage and read through their various posts, there will be one (possibly a couple) stating that they're:
a) Giving up music
or
b) Leaving newgrounds for a different website

I haven't come across ONE person who wasn't still submitting music. Sure they might leave for a month, but they'll be back. They'll always be back.

It's like when I try to give up WoW.

Don't you see it as obvious? With the flaws the AP has, many people are bound to give up making music. I mean, I almost did after submitting my first song and it getting 0-bombed, since I didn't know how abused the voting system was at the time.

Oh, and enjoy your examples:
Scooter-16
Borntodj167

They may not be much, but I'm just giving you some proof. I know both of these persons in real life, and they both gave up after seeing how far their score drops down a few minutes after they submit a song.

I can mention loads of songs that deserve top 5's, but didn't get them, and if you ask yourself, I'm sure you can too. Entering top 5's and 30's rely a lot on luck, since 0-bombers ruin the scores of every song they see except theirs.

What I'm trying to say is that 0-bombing really sucks and by removing it, the AP would be twice as good.

I submitted the recommendations idea to the Newgrounds Evolution thread, maybe it'll get noticed over there...

Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

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Centrist
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-31 02:43:41 Reply

Anyone feel like sharing their personal worst score on a song from zero bombing?

3 votes so far and still, the song is at 0.00. xD.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-10-31 02:55:59 Reply

At 10/31/09 02:43 AM, Centrist wrote: Anyone feel like sharing their personal worst score on a song from zero bombing?

3 votes so far and still, the song is at 0.00. xD.

A song of mine had about 15 votes and it was at 4.59, and then I went to bed and woke up to find it 4.29... X(. Oh and the third song I submitted was at 7 votes with 1. something...


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Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-19 12:23:23 Reply

one of my best works yet and it had a score of 0.50 or something after 6 votes.
currently on 1.22 after 7 votes.

newgrounds is awesome!

Im considering looking for another site to host my music currently.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

krssvr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-19 21:40:32 Reply

it's my turn to speak of the injustice. whats really funny is when i make a cover of a video game song i get like 10 "5's" in a row and reviews. then i make an original song the next day and i get like 4 votes and its always a mediocre score

but i try to balance in my mind whether my music actually sucks that bad or its newgrounds being discriminative and lame

so there's my rant


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-20 01:04:28 Reply

I just happened to read some posts here and think that EoD696's comments on this page make a lot of sense. If you consider yourself a serious musician, you easily start to feel dumb for submitting music here. A good friend of mine who's an industry composer looked for a place to distribute some of his free music, so I recomended him to give it a shot on the NG Audio Portal. It just took a week after he removed all of his content due to a lot of bad luck. I felt pretty embarrassed after that and will surely think twice before recommending that place a second time.

I'm not sure what the creators had in mind regarding the kind of reputation of this place. Posting music here whatsoever, seems like a desperate approach sometimes.


Denny Schneidemesser, composer for Film & Media. www.dennyschneidemesser.com

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-20 12:41:44 Reply

At 11/19/09 09:40 PM, krssvr wrote: it's my turn to speak of the injustice. whats really funny is when i make a cover of a video game song i get like 10 "5's" in a row and reviews. then i make an original song the next day and i get like 4 votes and its always a mediocre score

but i try to balance in my mind whether my music actually sucks that bad or its newgrounds being discriminative and lame
so there's my rant

exactly, thats what i noticed.
The portal is filled with remixes of existing vg tracks getting high scores. But when someone makes an original melody its often ignored or blammed, why? Because people cant bring themselves to actively listen? Or do they not know how to? Can they only bare what they already know?

hm...


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-20 13:11:26 Reply

It seems to me the solution would be to store every vote made by a user in a database and calculate statistics to show on the users profile, only viewable by moderators and administrators.

If you have a high amount of zero-votes you will get a temp ban.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-21 05:57:27 Reply

At 11/20/09 01:11 PM, Whittaker wrote: It seems to me the solution would be to store every vote made by a user in a database and calculate statistics to show on the users profile, only viewable by moderators and administrators.

If you have a high amount of zero-votes you will get a temp ban.

I disagree... what if there's someone who by coincedence found a lot of spam on the portal and zero-voted them all. It's unlikely, but I'm sure you've heard of authors whose submissions are all either 2-second voice-acting submissions recorded on a half-broken mike with no effort put into them at all, or some collection of loops they found as default presets that came with their DAW. What if someone finds one of these authors and zero-votes all of their self-voted songs because they deserved it? Your suggestion would help take away zero-bombing but it could also interfere with ordinary voting.


Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 03:22:09 Reply

Hey, i know i haven't posted much on the forums, but i do have an idea that may work without having to change much of anything. Maybe I'm the only one that does this, but usually I have an idea of what a song should get from a 0 to 5 when listening to it. Than I vote accordingly and usually if i'm doing a review, it's the review divided by 2. I do this weird numbers thing in my head and each of the 1-10 stars count for something, or if it's a song i favorite, it's a definite 5. If it's good but not something i would favorite or download, its a 4. Now, if there were a way to see how much your vote would affect the outcome of the score BEFORE you placed it, than you could vote better according to what you think the vote should be.

For example. Say the song has a vote of 2.23 (just a random number) and you think that it's a bit of an unfair number that it should be more of a 3.0 or higher. If you were able to see that voting a 3 would only bring it up to a 2.53, as opposed to voting 5 to bring it to a 2.99, than maybe you would vote more according to what you felt the overall score should be. Does that make sense? Seems to me that it would help curve the zero bombing affect. Even if somebody could make some sort of outside APP that you could bring up that you could plug the numbers in to calculate what votes would affect what....i mean, kind of a pain, but i would definitely use it.

Another problem, and this is one that I've even fell into. Is that musicians can be a bit vain. Maybe it's just me, but i've posted songs and than just sat there, waiting for votes, or check on it everyonce and awhile between facebook or youtube, or whatever crap. Without even regarding, or voting on other people's music. If we want it to be fair, than we're going to have to self regulate the audio portal. Look out for each other. Make a rule for yourself. Say you post one song, than go through and vote on all the rest of the songs on the list. Without zerobombing of course, unless, like somebody mentioned, it's utter crap with somebody screeching or something horrible like that. Or, pick a genre that your interested in, and go through the music and vote for songs you like. I find it hard to vote on music i know next to nothing about, so i try and stick to indie. But i have found some really good songs in there with votes of 0, that i single handedly bumped to the top of the page. Now, i don't know about ya'll, but that gives me a major power trip E-BONER when i do that.

In closing, i really don't think we can blame anybody else but ourselves. People wouldn't resort to zerobombing if others would take the time to give them a bit of exposure. Because that's what they're looking for isn't it? Just a pat on the back? Or some constructive criticism? I know we have the review crew, but maybe it should be expanded. Maybe we should put together an Audio Crew, that's broken down into Genre's. Because, like i said, i don't think it's fair to review on a Genre that's unfamiliar or that uses software your unfamiliar with. Unless of course it's an utter piece of crap or a brilliant piece of work. And i feel the same about flash submissions. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Maybe someone can poke some holes in my logic and wake me up.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 07:51:17 Reply

At 11/23/09 07:23 AM, ParagonX9 wrote: LOL 4.33 LOL

ohh jermain :P

slaps with oversized dongle.

TEH DONGLE SLAP!

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 11:13:09 Reply

At 11/21/09 05:57 AM, Supersteph54 wrote:
Your suggestion would help take away zero-bombing but it could also interfere with ordinary voting.

Yea yesterday i gave a track a 1 because it was an absolute piece of shit, and it even was in the best of all time (8bitfist)
I mean... are you serious? I did review it.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 11:22:27 Reply

why dont you guys just be content that every song on newgrounds doesnt deserve a score of 4.99 - you've all gotten spoiled - before the redesign the average song score was 3.79.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 11:24:38 Reply

also clupphead crews liek that are against newground's rules. Official ones neways.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 11:30:38 Reply

At 11/23/09 11:22 AM, Chronamut wrote: why dont you guys just be content that every song on newgrounds doesnt deserve a score of 4.99 - you've all gotten spoiled - before the redesign the average song score was 3.79.

Where does any of us say that we arent content with our average scores, we arent content with people abusing the voting system, probably cant be fixed but everyone is entitled to have a say about it.

Most of my tracks are around 3.00 some of my best music is around 2.00


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 15:19:12 Reply

At 11/23/09 11:24 AM, Chronamut wrote: also clupphead crews liek that are against newground's rules. Official ones neways.

How is that against the rules? If we put together a group that suggests songs that have been overlooked? I'm not saying to put a group together that zero bombs or 5 rockets every song, but one that would review them and maybe help bump their score. Hell, isn't that kind of what the treasure hunt thing is about? Finding buried gems and giving them a little love?

And i understand that regular voting would be thrown off a bit, but the audio portal has a bit of a different dynamic than the Flash portal. Maybe it does need a bit of a tweek when it comes to voting. Or, maybe they should give more voting power to those who have a better history of reviewing. I mean, for the flash portal, you get blam and save voting power, so why not do that with the audio portal but instead with a bonus that comes from past reviews that were well received? I'm sure that in time they would abuse that one too, but it's an idea. It would bring more reviews and exposure to audio music with people knowing there's some sort of incentive involved to do so.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-23 18:05:13 Reply

At 11/23/09 03:19 PM, CluppHead wrote:
At 11/23/09 11:24 AM, Chronamut wrote: also clupphead crews liek that are against newground's rules. Official ones neways.

Ok, so i did some searching on the BBS and read a few attempts at people trying to start a pyramid scheme with their music. So, i can see where that would be an issue. And i guess there is an audio advertisement forum as well. My idea was people looking for good tunes, without advertising their own. Although, that probably wouldn't stop somebody from making a bunk account to advertise their music.

It would, however, be nice if the advertisement thread were broken down into genre's. I get kind of tired listening to the same FL Loops music, with small twists, or the same beats. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes i like to listen to something easy, classic, or even blues at times. Indie.....etc etc. Techno and trance is so overkilled on this site. There's just way to much, i feel like that some of those guys need to try branching out and trying something else. Or add some freakin vocals for christ's sake. LOL....

Ok, that was an unnecessary rant, but yeah. Chances are nobody would take the time to join a club, just as they do not take the time to review music....because people can be selfish in nature. Which..... gotta admit, i've been selfish at times too.

Any rate, i'll just keep doin what i'm doing, search for some gold, add them to my favorites, and come back to them and vote every so often. Maybe i'll join the review crew and put some tunes up for review for them.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-11-28 16:40:52 Reply

At 11/23/09 06:05 PM, CluppHead wrote: And i guess there is an audio advertisement forum as well.

Ugh, I hate that thread X(. I posted two songs up on that thread, and never got any new reviews, and probably almost just as many listens as I would've had if I didn't advertise. That place is just a To-Do List for 0-bombers, IMO. It's a good thread concept, but just like everything else that has to do with audio on NG, it's abused.

It would, however, be nice if the advertisement thread were broken down into genre's. I get kind of tired listening to the same FL Loops music, with small twists, or the same beats. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes i like to listen to something easy, classic, or even blues at times. Indie.....etc etc. Techno and trance is so overkilled on this site. There's just way to much, i feel like that some of those guys need to try branching out and trying something else. Or add some freakin vocals for christ's sake. LOL....

Having it broken down into genres isn't a bad idea, but it's just not possible. It's impossible (up to date) to split a thread into different sections, so the only way of doing it is having an advertisement thread for every genre, but then, having 10's of advertisement threads populating the front page of the audio forum isn't what people want, since other threads will move down the page much more quickly, and enter page 2 before you know it, only to then probably become forgotten, and also, soon enough, the non-popular genres such as Indie, Ska, Goth, Bluegrass, etc, will get forgotten and enter the depths of the 5+ pages of the AF, so it would be useless having them anyway if nobody advertises in them and forget about them because they're far from page 1. Hehe, long sentence XD.

Ok, that was an unnecessary rant

Yes, it was unnecessary. Lol, joking :P.

but yeah. Chances are nobody would take the time to join a club, just as they do not take the time to review music....because people can be selfish in nature. Which..... gotta admit, i've been selfish at times too.

If you look on other music-hosting sites, practically every review over there can be considered a review. Over here, practically 90% of all reviews can be considered YouTube comments. The problem probably started with one person posting one-liners, and every new reviewer would see his/her one-liners and think "Oh, this is how you review on Newgrounds?' and do the same. I mean, have you ever heard of an (non-alt) account which has its first reviews more than 5 lines, because I seriously haven't heard of any (my first reviews were 1-3 liners too, because NG was covered with them, and I thought this was a place where long reviews aren't needed back then, so I did like everyone else, even though now my audio reviews are monstrous). That way, having a club like you suggested could end up increasing the amount of one-liners, unless you make restrictions that the review should be long, but then it would be practically an exact copy of the Review Request Club.

Any rate, i'll just keep doin what i'm doing, search for some gold, add them to my favorites, and come back to them and vote every so often.

Yeah, I usually like 5-bombing songs a little when they were 0-bombed so much. I mean, there are some REALLY good songs around with only around 3.00 as their score, and since in my opinion, the score should be larger, I boost it up to at least 4.20. At least then, there's more of a chance of people checking those songs out.

Maybe i'll join the review crew and put some tunes up for review for them.

That would be a big help. Us members of the Review Request Club (link in my sig) give decent reviews, and all of us here on NG know that the one thing an artist would want wouldn't be votes, downloads, or listens, but honest, decent, well-written reviews. If anyone wants a submission of theirs reviewed, that is the place to request, and if you really want to be helpful, you can join the club too.

There's also the Underdog thread which is much better than the Audio Advertisements thread. You won't get much of a chace to get reviews if you self-nominate, but if you nominate another artist as an Underdog, s/he will get a little more exposure. I mean, whenever I see a new post on that thread with the link to an artist, I always think 'why does this person like that artist's music so much?' and I often check out their music, and sometimes review too.

Seriously, threads like those should be stickies, instead of occasionally bouncing around from Page 1, to 2, to 3, and back to 1 again. As a matter of fact, this thready should be a sticky too...


Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

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Ritz190
Ritz190
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-12-01 08:07:47 Reply

Dude...all my shit got bombed today...like someone went on my page and specifically bombed everything..you know you've reached AWESOME when someone is TRYING to sabotage you...i'm honored..really...i never thought this would happen...(sniff) thank you...


SONIC!!! LOOK!!! THAT FISH HAS A GUN!!!

durn
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-12-01 10:46:10 Reply

Dude...all my shit got bombed today...like someone went on my page and specifically bombed everything..you know you've reached AWESOME when someone is TRYING to sabotage you...i'm honored..really...i never thought this would happen...(sniff) thank you...

congratulations. you have officially reach audio portal level 5.

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-12-01 14:47:12 Reply

At 12/1/09 08:07 AM, Ritz190 wrote: Dude...all my shit got bombed today...like someone went on my page and specifically bombed everything..you know you've reached AWESOME when someone is TRYING to sabotage you...i'm honored..really...i never thought this would happen...(sniff) thank you...

Happened to me too a few times, i take it as a compliment of people being angry with me and because they have no arguements resort to clicking the buttons.

aw, in my day we would just listen to loud music and sit in the corner of the room.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

pokerockmario
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2010-03-25 11:55:42 Reply

At 11/23/09 07:23 AM, ParagonX9 wrote: LOL 4.33 LOL

LOL 4.38 IN YOUR FACE X9! >:D LOL