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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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reaper-of-ratings
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 20th, 2009 @ 12:12 AM Reply

I hate to say it guys - but anyone who posts in this thread is a giant red flag for every single zero bomber on this site.

Most of your solutions involve a dedicated mod that would have to make sure "things re going properly" - mods do this out of good will - it isn't their job.

the only good suggestion I have heard so far aside from the endless repetitions of the same friggen ignorant ideas was the making the users voting power based off of how many reviews he has. The old mixposure.com site had something similar to this.. it worked pretty well - that system was SOLID. Sadly they went under and the people that brought them back up weren't anywhere near as good...

it's true though - it's not the scores that matter - and for anyone that is sad about the downvoting - its happening everywhere - and with mindless malevolance - so much it surprises even me. I would very much love to have a system instigated what deletes zero trollers accounts - there is a difference betweenzeroing something because you don't like it and zeroing thousands of submissions in one day - I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to pick out.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 20th, 2009 @ 12:38 AM Reply

At 8/20/09 12:12 AM, reaper-of-ratings wrote: the only good suggestion I have heard so far aside from the endless repetitions of the same friggen ignorant ideas was the making the users voting power based off of how many reviews he has.

Wait... what the fuck? Are you guys crazy? One of my ideas is good!? Is this the apocalypse or something?


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 20th, 2009 @ 12:42 AM Reply

At 8/20/09 12:12 AM, reaper-of-ratings wrote: buncha BS

Oh man, I can't wait to zero you... oh fuck

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 20th, 2009 @ 10:57 AM Reply

At 8/20/09 12:12 AM, reaper-of-ratings wrote:
Most of your solutions involve a dedicated mod that would have to make sure "things re going properly" - mods do this out of good will - it isn't their job.

I'd do it for a chicken sandwich. =D

=P

At 8/19/09 11:15 PM, ChemicalReaper wrote:
How about you get a voting score based on the number of reviews you write - the more positively rated reviews you have, the higher your voting power. If of your reviews are negatively rated or are deleted or whatever, then your voting power goes down. If you haven't written any reviews, your voting power stays at 1.00.

This is actually a good idea... And probably the best yet. :)
...now how about that sandwich.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 21st, 2009 @ 04:37 AM Reply

How about this... We give a judgement choice for the Audio Portal. This probably has already been mentioned, but here it comes again...

Here's the main idea:

Imagine someone submits a song 2 days after five new top 5 songs come up in the AP. His/her songs stays in the 30 new songs of the AP front page. It will have no score shown (like in the FP) and you're only allowed to vote on it once throughout the whole time it stays under judgement (if you vote on it, you get B/P points), and you can review it. Once it exits from the 30 new songs, it disappears and cannot be seen in the genre category that it's placed in, or when you search for that particular song in the search bar. It can only be seen in the userpage of the person who submitted it, and will be marked as 'Under Judgement'. It stays in the under judgement until the new Top 5 is out and then it's back to normal - you can vote on it everyday as usual and you can find it in the genre category it is in and when you search for it. The new top 5 will consist of the ones that were under judgement that had the highest scores, and the ones which have low scores get deleted. Think about it. It could fix so many things:

-Stops people complaining that the audio portal is inferior to the flash portal.
-0 bombers can't look in the best song of every genre to 0-bomb it so they can get in the top 5, since the under judgement songs won't be shown there.
-If 0 bombers do find a particular song to non-stop 0-bomb, they can only 0 bomb it once until a new Top 5 comes up.
-Audio artists/fans who spend most of their time in the audio portal don't have to go to the flash portal which doesn't really interest them just to get more of a voting power.
-It filters the audio portal, taking away all the 10-second junk that's submitted.
-Flash artists/fans will become more interested in the audio portal, therefore increasing its popularity.
-It stops people whining about their songs being 0 bombed in the forums.
-The top 5 has much more of a chance of consisting of good songs (not songs by talentless 0 bombers.

Phew.... anyway, tell me what you think of my idea, if it's good enough or not. :)


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 26th, 2009 @ 09:32 PM Reply

Just force people who vote make a review.

Voting anonymously and not saying why is a bit redundant.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 26th, 2009 @ 09:45 PM Reply

At 8/26/09 09:32 PM, Vultyrex wrote: Just force people who vote make a review.

Voting anonymously and not saying why is a bit redundant.

Good luck with your 1 or 2 votes.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 26th, 2009 @ 11:42 PM Reply

I want to point out that the Flash Portal works. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, why not just copy what already works and implement it for the audio portal? Saves, blams, actually being able to browse more then the top 30, voting power based on AUDIO PORTAL VOTES instead of flash portal votes, etc. etc. etc.

The reason the audio portal is broken is not due to some fundamental problem with voting. Its due to the fundamental problem of it being an add-on to the flash portal and not its own little thing.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 27th, 2009 @ 02:30 AM Reply

At 8/26/09 11:42 PM, Blackhole12 wrote: I want to point out that the Flash Portal works. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, why not just copy what already works and implement it for the audio portal? Saves, blams, actually being able to browse more then the top 30, voting power based on AUDIO PORTAL VOTES instead of flash portal votes, etc. etc. etc.

The reason the audio portal is broken is not due to some fundamental problem with voting. Its due to the fundamental problem of it being an add-on to the flash portal and not its own little thing.

That's almost exactly what I said, except I took the longer version of saying it -.-

We should add a judgement system... look about 4 posts up to see what I mean :\.
And maybe some more awards in the audio portal, etc... anything to get the audio portal's popularity up; the more NG usernames on the audio portal, the more the votes will be balanced and fair, like in the Flash portal. Oh, and adding a search bar in the homepage under the flash search bar to search for audio too...


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 27th, 2009 @ 06:44 PM Reply

At 8/26/09 09:45 PM, xKore wrote:
At 8/26/09 09:32 PM, Vultyrex wrote: Just force people who vote make a review.

Voting anonymously and not saying why is a bit redundant.
Good luck with your 1 or 2 votes.

I rather have two meaningful votes than a thousand ones that dont tell me anything, instead leave me guessing if its someone in a bad mood or what..


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 06:05 AM Reply

At 8/27/09 06:44 PM, Calamaistr wrote:
At 8/26/09 09:45 PM, xKore wrote:
At 8/26/09 09:32 PM, Vultyrex wrote: Just force people who vote make a review.

Voting anonymously and not saying why is a bit redundant.
Good luck with your 1 or 2 votes.
I rather have two meaningful votes than a thousand ones that dont tell me anything, instead leave me guessing if its someone in a bad mood or what..

I personally don't think the idea will work. Look:

We add a review-to-vote system in the AP. It could cause many problems:

-People who don't agree with the idea start attacking the forums.
-The AP loses 3/4 or so of its fans/artists.
-People decide not to vote or review a song since it's too much hassle.
-One-liners become more common.

The simple solution is making the audio portal like the flash portal, with a Judgment system (If you look about six or so posts up, you can see my idea). The idea of not voting at all will mean taking away the top 5/top 30 features. The idea of allowing one vote only on a song will cause people complaining a lot. The idea of writing a review if you vote 0 or 1 on a song will mean that if a song is complete junk that definitely deserves a 0, then the voter would have to review it and s/he probably won't have anything to say about it. Personally, I think making the audio portal have a judgement system's the best idea, since there's no downfall to it.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 06:44 AM Reply

At 8/28/09 06:05 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: The simple solution is making the audio portal like the flash portal

Simple to comprehend, complex to implement.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 11:13 AM Reply

At 8/28/09 06:44 AM, jarrydn wrote:
At 8/28/09 06:05 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: The simple solution is making the audio portal like the flash portal
Simple to comprehend, complex to implement.

I don't see the big problem. They've already done it to the FP, so how hard could it be to copy that into the AP?


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 11:15 AM Reply

At 8/28/09 11:13 AM, Supersteph54 wrote:
At 8/28/09 06:44 AM, jarrydn wrote:
At 8/28/09 06:05 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: The simple solution is making the audio portal like the flash portal
Simple to comprehend, complex to implement.
I don't see the big problem. They've already done it to the FP, so how hard could it be to copy that into the AP?

the problem is it works for the flash portal because they get millions of views a day - we get tens of thsousands - there just isn't enough traffic for it to work. NOR WOULD WE EVER WANT THAT MUCH TRAFFIC


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 11:50 AM Reply

At 8/28/09 11:15 AM, Chronamut wrote:
At 8/28/09 11:13 AM, Supersteph54 wrote:
At 8/28/09 06:44 AM, jarrydn wrote:
At 8/28/09 06:05 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: The simple solution is making the audio portal like the flash portal
Simple to comprehend, complex to implement.
I don't see the big problem. They've already done it to the FP, so how hard could it be to copy that into the AP?
the problem is it works for the flash portal because they get millions of views a day - we get tens of thsousands - there just isn't enough traffic for it to work. NOR WOULD WE EVER WANT THAT MUCH TRAFFIC

If we start, then flash artists/fans might become interested in the audio portal, and we'll get enough viewers. And why wouldn't we want that much traffic?

Or they could always implement a system where if a user votes an unusual amount of consecutive 0's or 1's and 5's on his/her songs, s/he gets an automated message sent to him telling him/her that audio mods will check what songs s/he is voting low in and if they are songs that don't deserve low scores then a message will be sent asking why s/he is voting so low, and if s/he doesn't answer within a week or answers something like 'I was 0-bombing', his/her account gets deleted, and if his/her IP address continues to have accounts voting 0, his/her IP address gets banned. It's a bit of hassle for audio mods, but 0-bombers will stop eventually and NG Audio Portal would finally stop having non-deserving songs in the top-5, and scores get evened out.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 12:06 PM Reply

At 8/28/09 11:50 AM, Supersteph54 wrote:
At 8/28/09 11:15 AM, Chronamut wrote:
At 8/28/09 11:13 AM, Supersteph54 wrote:
At 8/28/09 06:44 AM, jarrydn wrote:
At 8/28/09 06:05 AM, Supersteph54 wrote: The simple solution is making the audio portal like the flash portal
Simple to comprehend, complex to implement.
I don't see the big problem. They've already done it to the FP, so how hard could it be to copy that into the AP?
the problem is it works for the flash portal because they get millions of views a day - we get tens of thsousands - there just isn't enough traffic for it to work. NOR WOULD WE EVER WANT THAT MUCH TRAFFIC
If we start, then flash artists/fans might become interested in the audio portal, and we'll get enough viewers. And why wouldn't we want that much traffic?

Or they could always implement a system where if a user votes an unusual amount of consecutive 0's or 1's and 5's on his/her songs, s/he gets an automated message sent to him telling him/her that audio mods will check what songs s/he is voting low in and if they are songs that don't deserve low scores then a message will be sent asking why s/he is voting so low, and if s/he doesn't answer within a week or answers something like 'I was 0-bombing', his/her account gets deleted, and if his/her IP address continues to have accounts voting 0, his/her IP address gets banned. It's a bit of hassle for audio mods, but 0-bombers will stop eventually and NG Audio Portal would finally stop having non-deserving songs in the top-5, and scores get evened out.

audio mods don't have the power to delete accounts - only admins do. And believe me no admin on this site is gonig to invest the time for a system you are implementing. On a related note though I suggested a similar proposal in the ngs
evolution thread where all godo ideas that you actually wish to actually be implemented should go - this thread is more just for venting.

as for why we would never want that much traffic - once some fucker decided that they wanted you to go down they would form crews like in the flash portal - and you would never be heard from again - you think your scores get decimated now- just imagien what legions would do - have fun raising your score when your sogn has been zeroed so many tiems that it only raises 0.0000000000001 like in the flash portal.

as for flash users becomnig interested in the audio portal - hate to break it to ya but this place is FOR the flash portal - that is it's sole reason for existing. The Audio Portal is a different animal than the flash one - you just can't have the same system for it - a blam save option would never work because unlke the flash portal you don't get 100 views like like .. 5 minutes..


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 12:45 PM Reply

At 8/28/09 12:06 PM, Chronamut wrote: a lot of things...

I have to agree. I have about 10 people who vote zero on my songs daily, and even that wrecks my scores. It being on a much larger scale can be catastrophic towards scores. Especially since we get like 50 views on the main audio page, as Chronamut stated already.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 02:30 PM Reply

At 8/28/09 12:06 PM, Chronamut wrote: Loads of stuff

OK, then I'm out of ideas :(.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 05:46 PM Reply

I nominate NIGHTkilla

  • "Ecstasy of Gold" Remix
    "Ecstasy of Gold" Remix by NIGHTkilla

    Click to listen.

    Score
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    Type
    Song
    Genre
    Trance
    Popularity
    1,300 Views


Trance/Ambient.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 28th, 2009 @ 06:04 PM Reply

At 8/28/09 05:46 PM, HelthRMX wrote: I nominate NIGHTkilla
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/2 59489

err.. wrong thread?


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Aug. 29th, 2009 @ 05:16 AM Reply

At 8/28/09 05:46 PM, HelthRMX wrote: I nominate NIGHTkilla
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/2 59489

Lol, I think you're looking for the Underdog thread...


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 15th, 2009 @ 08:30 PM Reply

Some dude got mad at me for PMING HIM asking him to look at my latest news post so now he is zero bombing me, little does he know he is upping my number of views... also i suggested he click the add links.

it pays not to care about scores $
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 15th, 2009 @ 09:02 PM Reply

I'd just like to posit a query in regards to users obtaining voting power in relation to helpful reviews.

What's to stop a zero bomber from giving an incredibly helpful review, but still VOTING zero? Correlation does not equal causation. Just because someone can put together a couple of paragraphs in 5 minutes, it doesn't mean that they're going to vote fairly.

In fact, it's just going to make it harder to distinguish who is and isn't a zero voter.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 15th, 2009 @ 09:09 PM Reply

At 9/15/09 09:02 PM, jarrydn wrote: I'd just like to posit a query in regards to users obtaining voting power in relation to helpful reviews.

What's to stop a zero bomber from giving an incredibly helpful review, but still VOTING zero? Correlation does not equal causation. Just because someone can put together a couple of paragraphs in 5 minutes, it doesn't mean that they're going to vote fairly.

In fact, it's just going to make it harder to distinguish who is and isn't a zero voter.

in an ideal situation the review and the vote are not separate entities.

This makes their vote on the song a part of record, if they leave a 'helpful' review with a score of zero (not a lot of tracks really deserve zeros), are they really being helfpul? Will their reviews be consistently upvoted if they leave only zeros?

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 15th, 2009 @ 09:31 PM Reply

so you want to bring back the one vote per ip, and/or introduce unlimited reviews per IP or no

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 15th, 2009 @ 11:25 PM Reply

At 9/15/09 09:02 PM, jarrydn wrote: I'd just like to posit a query in regards to users obtaining voting power in relation to helpful reviews.

What's to stop a zero bomber from giving an incredibly helpful review, but still VOTING zero? Correlation does not equal causation. Just because someone can put together a couple of paragraphs in 5 minutes, it doesn't mean that they're going to vote fairly.

In fact, it's just going to make it harder to distinguish who is and isn't a zero voter.

First off, who would take the time to write a nice review and then 0 vote?

Second, of the times you've gotten a good review, assuming you check your reviews and scores everyday, have you seen a score go down within a reasonable time of when you got the review? I get positive reviews on songs all the time and my song scores either go up or stay the same. Other than immediately after submission have I gotten a positive review and been downvoted in the same hour.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 15th, 2009 @ 11:26 PM Reply

My question Is, If Zerovoting is a problem, Then why not just take out the Zero? Vote 1 - 5 instead of 0 - 5? Sure, they can onevote you, (onevote?) But that would not hit so hard.

That, Or we could make it so you need to unlock the option to vote zero in the portal... However, The effort that would take would just be over the top, and that would just be annoying. However, The reason I suggest this is mainly because I keep my Zero handy for when I can't even give a person an E for Effort.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 15th, 2009 @ 11:34 PM Reply

At 9/15/09 11:26 PM, Zombie-Genocide wrote: My question Is, If Zerovoting is a problem, Then why not just take out the Zero? Vote 1 - 5 instead of 0 - 5? Sure, they can onevote you, (onevote?) But that would not hit so hard.

So then people will be bitching about how they got 1-voted.

The issue isn't that people are just voting zero... it's that they're doing it maliciously.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Sep. 16th, 2009 @ 10:28 AM Reply

I don't know... It seems like I'm the only one, but I think the audio portal voting system works really well. Unlike in the flash portal, however, exposure depends largely on the number of votes as opposed to your actual score. The more votes you have, the more resistant you are to zero bombers, and thus the longer you are able hang out on the first few pages.

The current system is good for two reasons:
1. New content can float easily but is cycled quickly
2. Better content that has had more exposure (ie, more views/more votes) will stay on the front few pages for longer
3. Users who aren't the best artists and who are serious about getting feedback are able to push their own submissions up to the front and eventually can gain substantial weight and exposure.
4. This system COUNTS on zero bombers and five rocketers, meaning the jerks who are trying to cheat the system are actually the ones making it work.

We go under the assumption, in this system, that after a week or so a song with 150 votes is better than a song with 23 votes. And as far as I can tell this is an accurate gauge of the quality of a song.

But a lot of people have trouble coping with this. They say "You shouldn't five rocket your own stuff all the time because it's obviously not perfect" and "Zero bombers are just disrespectful and nobody should zero bomb an average or quality piece of work".
I disagree. You should do both of these things. Of course not all the time, but without zero bombers we'd get no content cycling.

Yes, if it were a perfect world and everyone voted fairly then yes, zero bombing isn't good. If we get by the fact that the world isn't perfect and realize that people will bomb and rocket, we can see that this system works out pretty well.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Oct. 7th, 2009 @ 07:48 AM Reply

The solution to zero-bombing is simple.

Right now, you have two rating systems for both the flash and audio portals - the two systems being the 5-star system (with the faces) and the 10-star review system. Why do we need two systems?

Scrap the 5-star review system and keep the 10-star review system. In rating, they will also be reviewing and thereby revealing themselves. Their votes are not anonymous, so any bad or unfair rating is more detectable and they are more likely to be punished for engaging in such behavior (i.e. whether by mods temporarily banning them from reviewing, or by other users deciding to give this user bad reviews in return). Thus, they are also more likely to refrain from this behavior.

I'm still not sure what the point of having the 5-star system is when we already have the 10-star system. Someone please explain this to me. "The 5-star system has the faces so it looks cool" you may say. Okay, well if you want to keep the faces then just move them to the review section (have the faces there instead of the stars), and possibly change the review scale from 10 to 5 (there's no need for 10 rankings, honestly).