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At 8/18/09 02:25 PM, loansindi wrote:

At 8/18/09 02:18 PM, Kirbyfemur wrote: make moar genres

The issue is, we can't subdivide the genres even a little, because if we make special metal subgenres, then there would be people clamoring for a genre to put every single variant of electronic music. "But I don't make breakhouseambicore! i need a genre for it!'

And when that happens, it becomes impossible to find what you're looking for, in a whole new way.

Eh was an idea. I was just thinking some of the genre's might have been a bit to vague. Like General rock and Heavy metal. General rock sound like you almost wouldn't need any other rock genres, almost like anything can go there, but that's just me. And Heavy Metal eh i tried explaining that in the last post. But my idea isn't valid i guess. But eh, at least it's not another "Hey make the vote system so that you have to do something in the review thing first" or some shtuuff like that.

At 8/18/09 02:52 PM, Kirbyfemur wrote:

But eh, at least it's not another "Hey make the vote system so that you have to do something in the review thing first" or some shtuuff like that.

But, to be fair, it IS another 'hey we need more genres' idea... we've had plenty of those.

Personally, while on the field of genres - I'd want to see the genre "Original Soundtrack" or similiar - as classical music is more for listening than actual use.
In addition much of the classical submissions here are really not even classical'ish - just using a symphonic orchestra, which is different.

What if on the voting system, it publicly shows how many people have voted for which number? So at least people could see then what type of voting has been cast on the track/song

sorta like

Date submitted - today
Genre - blah

Vote Cast
5 - 20 votes
4 - 14 votes
3 - 16 votes
2 - 19 votes
1 - 3 votes
0 - 20,000,000 votes

Just an idea, pro's and con's?

At 8/18/09 04:13 PM, itsfoxhall wrote: What if on the voting system, it publicly shows how many people have voted for which number? So at least people could see then what type of voting has been cast on the track/song

Just an idea, pro's and con's?

To what benefit?

Maybe it could look something like this:

- Heavy Metal -
Metal (Instrumental)
Death Metal
Power Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal
Fused Metal

here's a sample of what would happen...

say i was uploading a song... now what should i categorize it as?.... well lets look:

8-bit
A cappella
Acid Jazz
Alternative dance
Alternative hip hop
Alternative metal
Alternative rock
Anti-folk
Bachata
Baile Funk
Banda
Baroque music
Batá-rumba
Batucada
Beat
Beatboxing
Big band music
Big Beat
Black ambient
Black metal
Bitpop
Bolero
Bouncy Techno
Brass Band
Breakbeat
Breakbeat Hardcore
Breakcore
Chamber Jazz
Comedy Rap
Comedy Rock
Corrido
Country Rap
Crossover Music
Crunk
Cumbia
Dance
Dance Punk
Dance Rock
Dark Ambient
Darkcore
Dirty South
Disco-House
Drum and Bass
Dub
Dub House
Dubtronica
Dubstep
Easy Listening
Electro
Electro Backbeat
Electro Hop
Electro Industrial
Eurotrance
Freestyle
Freestyle House
Funk
Fusion Jazz
Gangsta Rap
Garage Rock
Ghetto House
Grunge
Hands Up
Happy Hardcore
Hardcore Techno
Hard House
Hardstyle
Hard Trance
Hard Rock
Heavy Metal
Hip Hop
Hip House
House
Indie Music
Industrial Hip Hop
Industrial
Instrumental
Jazz
Jazz Funk
Jumpstyle

and this is just to the letter J

My two-penn'orth:

I've been on a lot of sites: Soundclick, the old MP3.com (remember them?) Vitaminici, youtube etc etc etc. The rating systems of all of them were/are abused by trolls and youngsters in millions of more and more inventive ways every day. What I learned from all this is that ratings don't matter. They're worthless and admins who instigate them are not thinking clearly or (rather thinking money from click$$$$$$orz). Best way to judge your work's reception is by comments, plain and simple. They're honest and they're from someone at least partially grown-up with a brain who's taken some time out to let you know how cool you are or how very very hard you suck the big one and why. If you're to put your work out for the whole world to see, you need a thick skin!

Communities work best when people communicate...about everything. Let the trolls, cheatmeisters, spam artists and kiddiwinks have their harmless fun, they'll never join in a conversation and therefore betray themselves (apologies to genuine people who're just shy and retiring, but you've no need to be...no one can see you here dude!)

As to exposure to the coder and game-maker community here...let the lazy buggers come and plough through the offerings here one by one, and they'll soon come up with their own clever and ingenious way to minimise the amount of time they spend listening to twenty thousand BassC...I mean BassHunter remixes. Trust me...I know how they work... :)

Relax guys...music's fun!

TTFN!

At 8/18/09 06:36 PM, loansindi wrote:
To what benefit?

People would at least see that the song has been bombed, or a really really aweful track, and whether the artist who subbmitted it also kept giving it 5/5, personally i think artists shouldn't be able to vote on their own tracks

At 8/19/09 06:06 AM, itsfoxhall wrote:

At 8/18/09 06:36 PM, loansindi wrote:
To what benefit?

People would at least see that the song has been bombed, or a really really aweful track, and whether the artist who subbmitted it also kept giving it 5/5, personally i think artists shouldn't be able to vote on their own tracks

If people can see who zerobombed them there will only be more zerobombers, because people will bomb them back. And then the people who were bombed back will become angry and will bomb back again etc.

At 8/19/09 06:23 AM, MH16 wrote:

At 8/19/09 06:06 AM, itsfoxhall wrote:

At 8/18/09 06:36 PM, loansindi wrote:
To what benefit?

People would at least see that the song has been bombed, or a really really aweful track, and whether the artist who subbmitted it also kept giving it 5/5, personally i think artists shouldn't be able to vote on their own tracks

If people can see who zerobombed them there will only be more zerobombers, because people will bomb them back. And then the people who were bombed back will become angry and will bomb back again etc.

So, the only remedy is to have a giant brawl irl. Atleast it would take care of things since the internet is like godmode.

At 8/19/09 07:12 AM, Calamaistr wrote: So, the only remedy is to have a giant brawl irl. Atleast it would take care of things since the internet is like godmode.

The only remedy is to stop caring about your scores.

At 8/19/09 07:32 AM, MH16 wrote:

At 8/19/09 07:12 AM, Calamaistr wrote: So, the only remedy is to have a giant brawl irl. Atleast it would take care of things since the internet is like godmode.

The only remedy is to stop caring about your scores.

Then NG should remove the whole 5 star rating system cause it serves no other purpose than attract people who only click it for their internetballs. (that they dont have irl)

I personally dont care about my scores, like other people said the only measure for your music is if people want to use it for their flash, review it and/or download it (especially the last ofcourse)

But there has to be a 'knoop doorhakken' here. (thats dutch, look it up)

At 8/19/09 07:36 AM, Calamaistr wrote: Then NG should remove the whole 5 star rating system cause it serves no other purpose than attract people who only click it for their internetballs. (that they dont have irl)

The rating system works fine for the Flash portal.
And it doesn't only attrack people who just click, but there's a group of those people that spoils it for the rest.

I personally dont care about my scores, like other people said the only measure for your music is if people want to use it for their flash, review it and/or download it (especially the last ofcourse)

But there has to be a 'knoop doorhakken' here. (thats dutch, look it up)

I am dutch too, but i have no clue what you're trying to say here. You mean there need to be some chances made fast? Because if you do, i don't agree. Before any changes are made you must be certain that it will do only good and doesn't make things worse.

would ng take away the audio votes then? it would stop the whining about bombing etc, but what will it cause?

download bombing??

At 8/19/09 08:27 AM, itsfoxhall wrote: would ng take away the audio votes then? it would stop the whining about bombing etc, but what will it cause?

download bombing??

Well, if NG would take away the ratings for audio, then how would things like the weekly top 5 be chosen? If it is by the amount of downloads then there has to be a restriction on the amount of times you can download a song with your account. That wouldn't be good, because maybe i want to download it also on another computer or something.
Also, that's not a safe system.

At 8/17/09 09:21 AM, loansindi wrote: "make the scores based purely on reviews!" has some merit. It (hypothetically) limits each user to a single vote, and requires at least some amount of input and effort. This is probably the best of the ideas that i've heard, however then we're left policing hundreds and thousands of spammy reviews, and new accounts are still free.

However, there is a way to stop that. Curently Newground tracks IP voting, so you can only vote on a song once a day. Add that into your equation and what you would get is a voting system that means anytime someone would want to revote on your music they would have to make a new account every day just to spite you. 0 Blams are quick, thats the nature of them. People think Eff them, and hit 0. It's the same kind of mindset which comes with the can't be a$$ed attitude. This way, the majority of random spammers would have to actually work to drop the score of an audio track.

With every 0 they would give, it would have to be done day by day, by new account by new account (of remember passwords and new names). Thats alot of work for someone who wants to be an a$$. Im not saying that those people dont exist, but it would be a minor percentage of people compared to the massive amount now.

It creates the problem that only people can vote once and only once. But thats not a bad thing. It makes people think more about what an audio track deserves, it also enforces crits to be given as you name is linked to the score, so your reputation (so to speak) is at hand. Overall it would give you a true score instead of someone voting 0 on you ten times, or someone giving you a 5 ten times. Really it should be one vote, once per track.

:)

it used to be one vote - once per track - you guys then complained that you could only vote once per track - and dispaired when your song dropped to the bottom of the barrel - and you yourself could do nothing to raise it back up. So stop whining over every change they make.

Hey why dont they just remove the whole audio portal and audio forum!

nooooo wait! We want it back now!

ok i got 0 bombed, down with audio protal!

oh noes! Bring it back, Bring it back!

damn 0 voting sucks

GET OVER IT! AHHHHH

At 8/19/09 10:53 AM, Chronamut wrote: So stop whining over every change they make.

I wasn't aware that it was like that. Plus, we aren't whining, we're just thinking out loud Shawn...

At 8/19/09 02:02 PM, PeterSatera wrote:

At 8/19/09 10:53 AM, Chronamut wrote: So stop whining over every change they make.

I wasn't aware that it was like that. Plus, we aren't whining, we're just thinking out loud Shawn...

STOP WHINING OUT LOUD!

hahaha..

but yeah man.. never hurts to ask us oldies what it wasl ike before.. the average score before the redesign was about 3.79.. with the lowest averagine agound .01 to .07 (non-zeros) so... you guys aren't too bad ;)

At 8/19/09 07:51 AM, MH16 wrote:

I am dutch too, but i have no clue what you're trying to say here. You mean there need to be some chances made fast? Because if you do, i don't agree. Before any changes are made you must be certain that it will do only good and doesn't make things worse.

It means there has to be made a decision on this since obviously alot of people have an opinion on this subject.

Unfortunately, there are assholes who seem to go and 0-bomb everything on the Audio Portal Front Page.

The portal needs a major refit, and it needs it soon.

Here's some stuff to think about:

- People with high voting power 0-bomb you to oblivion, and it takes 1,000 votes to bring it back up again. How about making it ONE vote per I.P., per day, AND your vote only counts as 1.00 votes? That way, you can 0-bomb all you want... it won't make much difference when everyone else's votes count exactly the same as yours.

- The review-only voting system sounds good. But think about it: how many reviews do you actually get when they don't really count for anything? How few people do you think will actually be bothered to write a review just to vote on your track?

- How about a revamped audio control panel? When someone votes 0 on your submission but they haven't left a review explaining why they gave it a low score, then you can delete the vote? If the review is just a load of shit, like "blah u suck", then you can delete the review and the vote?

So something needs to be done. We can agree on that. How exactly are we going to fix it, though? That's the problem.

(By the way, have fun 0-bombing my latest track. Why not? Some other talentless fucks have already done so.)

At 8/19/09 10:56 PM, ChemicalReaper wrote: - People with high voting power 0-bomb you to oblivion, and it takes 1,000 votes to bring it back up again. How about making it ONE vote per I.P., per day, AND your vote only counts as 1.00 votes? That way, you can 0-bomb all you want... it won't make much difference when everyone else's votes count exactly the same as yours.

If you give the faceless masses the same voting power as regular users, then the problem likely will still be evident. People who are dedicated to zero voting aren't above using throwaway accounts and proxies/dynamic ips/etc to get more votes a day. And honest users get buried.

- The review-only voting system sounds good. But think about it: how many reviews do you actually get when they don't really count for anything? How few people do you think will actually be bothered to write a review just to vote on your track?

Most reviews are worthless anyway.

- How about a revamped audio control panel? When someone votes 0 on your submission but they haven't left a review explaining why they gave it a low score, then you can delete the vote? If the review is just a load of shit, like "blah u suck", then you can delete the review and the vote?

A user should NOT have control over his track's score this way, or else the scores mean less than it already does. If I genuinely think a track is poor, I don't want the user just deleting my vote and moving back up in the ratings.

Review moderation is in place.

Look, something needs to be done. We all agree on that.

The flaws you pointed out with my comments above are clearly no worse than what already goes on in the AP.

Either we leave it the way it is, and have people bitching in 10 new threads everyday about how their song clearly deserves more than a 1.75, or we change something and run the risk of having things still not being perfect. Because frankly, you're not going to have a perfect system.

You said everyone becomes faceless with an equal vote? How about you get a voting score based on the number of reviews you write - the more positively rated reviews you have, the higher your voting power. If of your reviews are negatively rated or are deleted or whatever, then your voting power goes down. If you haven't written any reviews, your voting power stays at 1.00.

That way, those who give good feedback are entrusted with a more powerful vote. People without an account can't vote, and people who want to 0-bomb - who are clearly people who never review, never give sensible votes, can't do shit to change your score.

At 8/19/09 11:15 PM, ChemicalReaper wrote: You said everyone becomes faceless with an equal vote? How about you get a voting score based on the number of reviews you write - the more positively rated reviews you have, the higher your voting power. If of your reviews are negatively rated or are deleted or whatever, then your voting power goes down. If you haven't written any reviews, your voting power stays at 1.00.

This is actually going somewhere. The idea of entrusting users with greater voting power based on something other than just... voting, makes sense.

I agree. Since abusive reviews can actually be removed, a system that takes number of reviews into account would actually be great; especially since the concept of "experience" itself implies that as one does something, one gets better at it. Which isn't really true with clicking a button to vote, but could be more applicable to something like reviewing.

Standards would have to be raised for what constitutes a "good" review, though; another site I've been on with a system that is based mainly on reviews (literally; reviews are like cash there) simply encourages users to write useless reviews that are just above the requirements. If we put extra weight on reviews without upping the standards, then people would simply write short reviews that provide no real help to the creator but which aren't considered "abusive" by the guidelines put forward in the FAQ page.

At 8/19/09 11:37 PM, SoulRed12 wrote: then people would simply write short reviews that provide no real help to the creator but which aren't considered "abusive" by the guidelines put forward in the FAQ page.

It's a matter of only awarding experience for positively moderated reviews.

I think i have a pretty good idea of bomb protection...

What about if, lets say, you upload a song, and three people vote a zero in a row, in the same 5 minutes, and 6 the next 5 minutes.
Your Screwed with a score of 1.
Well what about if there is a timer for like, lets say every 5 minutes to 30 minutes with a limit of zero votes in a ROW. And if the amount in a row exceeds the limit, then it prevents those votes to cause any effect to the score.

Probably wont ever be put into use because no one cares about the AP, but just a though :)

At 8/19/09 11:47 PM, Killa5o9 wrote: Well what about if there is a timer for like, lets say every 5 minutes to 30 minutes with a limit of zero votes in a ROW. And if the amount in a row exceeds the limit, then it prevents those votes to cause any effect to the score.

The solution isn't to cripple user's ability to vote. If someone submits a spam track, it should get zeroed into oblivion.