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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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MkieNedachi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-07-06 16:00:16 Reply

Its the hentia or what ever it is that keeps NG running, if we start 0-bombing that maybe they will take much more notice to that instead of just looking at some flashes going "Oh well, no one gets cash this week, better luck next time"

The Hentia is what keeps this webite up, start 0-bombing that & they will take notice & have actions to the voting system.

Anyone agree?


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MkieNedachi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-07-06 16:09:53 Reply

Good point, didn't think about that.


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zach8109
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-07-06 18:40:49 Reply

At 6/30/09 11:20 PM, benyue1978 wrote: People nailed it when they said NG doesn't make any money from the Audio Portal. That is why you will never see any more improvements. Why pump money or resources into something that doesn't give you a monetary return? Tom, Wade and the others don't make ANY money, PERIOD, from the AP. So stop your whining and bitching about everything that is wrong with it, because it'll NEVER get any better. EVER. EVER. I repeat. Stop whining and bitching about the AP being sucky. NO ONE AT NG ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT IT. It's treated like a free library of music that they can exploit.

End rant.

P.S. I really mean it. Stop whining about the AP. It's about to get worse.

Exactly, the only care ng has for it is the flash portal that it supplements (with sounds). There may be a select amount of audio mods that do care for the portal but they alone dont have enough influence to fix things.

nal1200
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-07-07 01:30:27 Reply

Get rid of the voting system and make reviews the primary factors of scores. Jesus, it's so simple.

Not only will this get rid of the zeroing problem, but it will also better incorporate whistle-blowing.

Besides, do you actually KNOW anyone who doesn't have an account that makes an effort to vote on things? It's really pointless.

Get rid of votes.

TerraNation
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-09 11:21:46 Reply

idon mind those votes but ofcourse if i vote 0 i serious tell why beacuse 0 means for me really pain song, Like my ears start bleeding so bad or someone make opera singer sings really false that window about break :). Most 0 voters are just pass by and vote 0.


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Glib
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-09 22:32:47 Reply

i zero vote as much as possible


.

SineRider
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-09 23:06:56 Reply

At 8/9/09 10:32 PM, Glib wrote: i zero vote as much as possible

what a rebel

Quarl
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-09 23:17:52 Reply

At 8/9/09 10:32 PM, Glib wrote: i zero vote as much as possible

I zero vote my own tracks sometimes to make myself lol on the inside.


Giants are too tall. We'll have to stand on top of each others shoulders to survive.

DJ-Chilvan
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-12 09:28:37 Reply

Excuse me all. Why is it that audio traffic these days have changed wind. I mean, if you check out all my 2006 music even some of my not so good tracks have at least like 50 downloads and like 200+ views but now in 2009, some of my hot hot tracks dont even have up to 10 downloads and barely 100 views. Even, all my 2006 stuff has a higer ratio of 'responsible' reviews. Yes, you might say that it took three years for my 2006 music to become like that (2009-2006 = 3 years), but if you look closely at the relation b/w the traffic of the two years it dont really add up like that. I mean, yes it takes time but just look at some of my 2009 stuff that i submitted since january or february like 'My Savior', only like 51 views and 2 downloads but i know for a fact that it's way better than my 2006 stuff. So, please fellow artists, what is the meaning of all this. Thank you.

P.S. This aint no advertisement.


Check out my new track Tokyo Pop and my hit: Our Nova Pt. 2.
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PeterSatera
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-12 15:37:25 Reply

At 7/7/09 01:30 AM, nal1200 wrote: Get rid of the voting system and make reviews the primary factors of scores. Jesus, it's so simple.

Not only will this get rid of the zeroing problem, but it will also better incorporate whistle-blowing.

Besides, do you actually KNOW anyone who doesn't have an account that makes an effort to vote on things? It's really pointless.

Get rid of votes.

I agree on this. Newgrounds is dumb if keeps on going with the way it is heading. :P


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Meonly70
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-12 15:43:10 Reply

First off getting rid of votes would completely trash the system newgrounds bots use. Second, this website is filled with biased little jealous 12-13 year old kids who only vote and review on how good the song is to their opinion. The people here never look at how it was made or think about how it can be better. Only a few good trustworthy artists and reviewers do. But nonetheless, reviews and scores are always a plus side on the artists side if they make a really good song, or are popular.

PeterSatera
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-13 12:59:21 Reply

At 8/12/09 03:43 PM, Meonly70 wrote: First off getting rid of votes would completely trash the system newgrounds bots use. Second, this website is filled with biased little jealous 12-13 year old kids who only vote and review on how good the song is to their opinion. The people here never look at how it was made or think about how it can be better. Only a few good trustworthy artists and reviewers do. But nonetheless, reviews and scores are always a plus side on the artists side if they make a really good song, or are popular.

I understand what you are saying but it shouldnt always matter how it was made. People shouldn't be swaded by means of software and hardware someone owns for the means of creation. A 12/13yr old is entitled to an opinion as much as a 35 year old, kids come out with a direct opinion. They don't butter it up, a raw review from someone like that is just as important IMO. The scores would still work if the random voting was taken away and it was dependant on the reviewers scores.

:)


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Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:08:40 Reply

At 8/14/09 04:51 PM, loansindi wrote:
At 8/14/09 04:46 PM, Calamaistr wrote: What advertisement? Do i earn anything from doing this? I think on the contrary i have a much larger chance of being completely 'zero bombed' as you people call it just for this post. But why should i care, im only asking for a bit of empathy.
Coming into the forums and disregarding the rules to post a thread about how great of a composer you are and how it's not fair that your tracks are voted so low, and then linking one of your tracks, one of those actions is an advertisement.

-

this topic is not about my skill as a composer, but my background has the right to weigh in on the topic wich is actually about defining intellectual music, as in music that has thought to it preferably based on the divine measure as music is far more than just something that can sound good, there is a whole fractal logic behind it that can even draw architectural design (see the rosslyn motet).
But ok appart from that its also about what i have noticed, that it seems that classical works are no longer apreciated, and i want to be proven wrong in that thought and see if there are actually people here that agree, and also make music that way instead of just looking for a repetitive pattern resembling pacobell with a few default drums that because of the fl quality allows people to wave their limbs to the left and right without them having the feeling it looks stupid wich it would if there were no sound.

And to the mod who locked my topic, you couldve just removed the part in wich i asked to listen to my track and tell me if it was worth voting low on didnt you, instead you misinterpeted the whole topic or are just a child that does in no way care about actual music pick one. For the topic i dont care, but i still want my discussion to carry on so im going to put my complete OP without the request below:

Look, i can understand that there is an expectation with all the people using fruity loops nowadays concerning sound quality, im not here to contest anything about that, but where i come from music is about the composition, not about the sharp pitch and the loud drums, i know it is in todays club culture where people dont really care about the melodical math and just want something to move their genitals on, not contesting anything there either (appart from that i personally stay away from that as much as i can.)

Im from a classical and oldschool world in wich quality was a luxioury for studios and you had to make something complicated to get some ears, and i still make music that way even though i now have fruity loops ive been noticing about myself i dont like working with it as much as i like playing an actual piano or using older programs that to me are much user-friendlier if you are of the kind that dont want to mix and scratch things but put together everything yourself. I know that the options in fl are many but its just not for me.

Ive tried, and i still try, and will probably keep trying to make my old tracks in fl with better quality instruments.. still.. the more i think about it the more of a chore it seems, the more of a obstacle it becomes, i dont want to end up in a league see, ive always had my own style and my own sound.

So now having done this short about the why let me come to what i want to say:

Voting low on my new fl work i dont mind, ive just began working with fl anyway but how the hell is it possible that one of my best older works is voted down.. its gravely insulting. But instead of taking this to personal it has made me think less about NG as a place for my music. I also noticed how popular hiphop oriented pulp is here, i also noticed how amateuristic compositions with a decent percussion glued under it seem to do well in the charts, so even though i only had a few votes yet on my work it tells me enough.

Im not here to go apeshit and tell everyone how good i am, i have my flaws but music is a natural thing for me. I am a natural music creator, a natural composer and i have been this for years, i have had many recognitions and even music teachers being intrigued by my work.. So this here.. is like im making a beautiful painting in a monkey den and the monkeys end up ripping the painting appart. Its a complete lack of musical intellect, im sure there are more composers who have experienced this because there really are good tracks on NG but just as many bs track with high ratings.

Its a shame enough i can only upload 2 tracks a day because i have over 500 pieces in total, with about 40 of them on my pc and the rest safe on cards.

I know some of you will use this post as a trigger to ruin my musics score even more but go right ahead its not like you will make it any worse than it already is, i already know that this place probably isnt the right place for my music, beats me why i keep uploading.

Overall my logic tells me that im a bit jumpy perhaps, afterall the track has only rested on NG for a single day and i already feel it as an insult seeing its score, and i know topics like these have been posted before wich didnt end well but i dont care about that. I just want to know if there is any reason for me to continue uploading my work, if there are atleast 10 people out there that actually apreciate it.
Because that would be enough for me.

Yes well. its from a period of game music and i used music® as a program (not on pc, on console) and have done so for years. I make every single sound myself, admitted from existing sounds but i always edit those into something else, such as making a custom type of rhode bells from flutes etc.
The only drawback is that when i convert music to my pc, there is both a quality reduction from the tulp-cable and the worst being it converts to mono wich is only again converted back into stereo trough audacity. So all in all i end up with a lack of surround effects ive used in several tracks (in fact i need to edit certain songs putting all the music on R-out to keep it from actually recording certain notes) and an annoying static. But its the price of an easy personally friendly method. At least it has been up till now that i have FL.

Every time i think about putting some percussion together i emediately get a sense of 'blergh' inside me, i just cant bring myself to use different rolls for every individual sound that i then have to filter with effects to make echos etc, im completely used to do literally everything myself, every effect you hear in my old music, i did personally with for instance individually placed notes that i individually tuned down volume wise see. Thats such a giant difference with programs like fl.

Today there are programs that make stuff echo, and there are samples that contain certain effects on their own. It all seems so extremely robotic while i always had so much pride in getting the same things done with my own hands, im almost afraid people cannot recognise such as something someone would actually do himself anymore or emediately wonder why someone would do that in the first place when you can just use a tool.

Hm.. ill always keep making classical and oldschool works, for instance the bit music from megaman, now that was good gamemusic, you can put as much orchestral strings and d&b kicks into a track it will never top a mathematical perfected melody. Even if people who think that way are getting few im afraid...


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. pm me for (free) hire, depending on your project i will make you a ost.

loansindi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:12:28 Reply

At 8/14/09 05:08 PM, Calamaistr wrote: WALL OF TEXT

Look dude, SBB was right to lock the thread. In the end you're just complaining about people voting low.

You can say 'i come from here or there or over that way' all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that people are free to vote however they please.

Buoy
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:17:33 Reply

At 8/14/09 05:08 PM, Calamaistr wrote: And to the mod who locked my topic, you couldve just removed the part in wich i asked to listen to my track and tell me if it was worth voting low on didnt you, instead you misinterpeted the whole topic or are just a child that does in no way care about actual music pick one. For the topic i dont care, but i still want my discussion to carry on so im going to put my complete OP without the request below:

I can't edit posts, so no, you're wrong. By all means feel free to make a topic about your little "actual music" idea, as long as you keep it on that topic and don't boast yourself or whine about getting low votes.

Argyros
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:18:12 Reply

At 8/14/09 05:12 PM, loansindi wrote:
At 8/14/09 05:08 PM, Calamaistr wrote: TL;DR
Look dude, SBB was right to lock the thread. In the end you're just complaining about people voting low.

You can say 'i come from here or there or over that way' all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that people are free to vote however they please.

Exactly, it doesn't matter WHO YOU ARE, or WHAT YOU KNOW, it's WHAT YOU'RE PUTTING ON THE SITE. If you put up shit, it doesn't matter, it'll get a bad score. Tiesto, ParagonX9, you, me....it doesn't matter who you are, it'll get zero'd if it sucks. Suck it up.

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:24:22 Reply

Well it DOESNT suck, because if it did then it wouldnt all sound right now would it.
I can point out even popular music (from the television yes) that outright sucks but gets sold a hundred fold, why does it suck? Why is it 'bad' music? It has good quality soundwise sure but the composition is predictable, repetitive and simplistic. My discussion was about the definition of music and how i think that music is something to be respected when done right but today apparently that is not the way music is viewed, its now handled like something that is right for aslong you can wave your reproductive organs around on its beat.

Stop acting like its about me, the only part about me is me being insulted that mathematical music of the kind i too make is looked down upon. From what i said about me not caring if the score on my music dropped even lower should be enough proof it isnt about me as a composer but about composing itself.

And im all in my right posting here now, its not like i want to drag anything on i was referred to go here because someone locked my topic, an actual 'moderator' would have pmed me asking me like an adult to remove the link, that wouldve been fine by me.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. pm me for (free) hire, depending on your project i will make you a ost.

Argyros
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:34:27 Reply

At 8/14/09 05:24 PM, Calamaistr wrote:
Stop acting like its about me

If it's not about you, then why do you care so much?
Stop clogging up this thread, it's for giving people much-needed exposure to their songs, not for ranting. Go make a newspost if you're so passionate about your opinions.

Best of luck with your next submission.

Buoy
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:34:29 Reply

At 8/14/09 05:24 PM, Calamaistr wrote: My discussion was about the definition of music and how i think that music is something to be respected when done right but today apparently that is not the way music is viewed, its now handled like something that is right for aslong you can wave your reproductive organs around on its beat.

See my above post, I rest my case...

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:13:17 Reply

This is quite a good thread and i must agree but i also had a decent idea to counter 0 voting.

Make giving a 0-5 score only possible after youve actually done a review on a particular track.

Why? then atleast its obvious who is actually grieving someone intentionally, and who is giving a low score because they didnt like something about your song.

And about giving up your ability to 5vote your own stuff daily, well that makes it also alot more fair in the whole portal now doesnt it? (unless there are so many grievers around that staff would have way to much on their hands dealing with it, i think this system would improve the portal quite alot.)

regards- Calamaistr.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. pm me for (free) hire, depending on your project i will make you a ost.

Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:23:05 Reply

please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:33:36 Reply

At 8/16/09 07:23 PM, Chronamut wrote: please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.

Whoever is going to read 16 pages. Its a good idea.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. pm me for (free) hire, depending on your project i will make you a ost.

Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:35:34 Reply

At 8/16/09 07:33 PM, Calamaistr wrote:
At 8/16/09 07:23 PM, Chronamut wrote: please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.
Whoever is going to read 16 pages. Its a good idea.

I guess liljim just can't be assed to read 16 pages then - which means your idea nd noone elses would never be heeded.

that's bullshit man - if you can't be assed to read what other people have written why should anyone even listen to you? Its an idea that's already been shot down.

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:51:05 Reply

At 8/16/09 07:35 PM, Chronamut wrote:
At 8/16/09 07:33 PM, Calamaistr wrote:
At 8/16/09 07:23 PM, Chronamut wrote: please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.
Whoever is going to read 16 pages. Its a good idea.
I guess liljim just can't be assed to read 16 pages then - which means your idea nd noone elses would never be heeded.

that's bullshit man - if you can't be assed to read what other people have written why should anyone even listen to you? Its an idea that's already been shot down.

Well i just respectfully disagree that it should be kept down untill it has been tried.
Unless someone official comes in and tells us all 'it wont ever be tried, we will carry on with a collection of assholes that may or may not completely ruin the whole purpose of a voting system nevertheless because we dont feel like bothering with them anymore, people like that exist and there just isnt anything we can do about it except for making sure that whenever we catch our own children acting like that on their computer we give them a good slap in the back of the head for it, then rip out the internet connection, put it around their necks and dropkick them trough the 2nd floor window.'

Untill then, ill contest it.


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MJTTOMB
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-17 08:23:39 Reply

For the past two months some individual has voted 0 on every last one of my most recent 50 or so submissions. EVERY DAY. my scores are now averaging 2.9, having dropped from a comfortable 4.1-ish average. Scores don't matter, but there's a difference between random zerovoting and pure hate. It hurts.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-17 08:59:07 Reply

Im surprised that very little is done to rectify the situation of zero bombing, especially since NG already realises and recognise it as a massive problem.

The majority of Vet users state that the voting system should be ignored and does not represent the suggestive quality and likabilty of a song. However, by making such a statement you enforce one of the main features on this website to become redundant, and it shouldn't be like that. The feature is accountable to the way projects are sorted, so its one of the most important.

I accept that people Blam. It doesn't effect me much because I make music for enjoyment and release. It doesn't effect me making more. But other people are driven by their music, and get easily offended when someone says "it sux", especially when they put countless hours into it. For the people who look at their score and feel that the music they have submitted is worth more , then remember the factors of zero blamming. People do it because your music could not be of their taste, they could dislike the approach to the track, they could be jealous. They may do it because their music is scoring low, so bringing down someone else gets them that slight chance of being more recognised (which may be the reason why the two big blamming areas - classical and video game is getting smaller score all the time).

In my opinion though the majority of time I would think it were to do with that being bad is more fun than being good. It is, lets be honest. And what makes it more fun being bad, is when you can't get caught. Im not suggesting anyone should be bad, im merely telling the wounded from the 0 bombers why it happens.

Unfortunately it occurs, but people will recognise you if your work is good. Look at how many people favourite you or your track that is where the truth in how good your music is.


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loansindi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-17 09:21:45 Reply

Okay, here's some sleepless musings on the idea of zero voting.

The thing about the portals here on newgrounds, both flash and audio, is that the signal to noise ratio is... less than good. The flash portal shows this quite a bit better than the audio portal (as evinced by the blam system), but I would bet if I looked at the latest 50 audio submissions I would find a large number of them to fall into the 'noise' side of that ratio. Whether they're silly/spammy 'voice acting' submissions, another generic dance/electro track that uses the same presets everyone bitches about, linkin park's latest single, a midi-ripped mario theme or god knows what else, they're not really up to the snuff of some of the really great artists. (Don't get me wrong, a few of my submissions fall into the 'noise' category, without any shadow of a doubt.)

What does this have to do with zero voting? It's hard to say, but I think we can agree that it doesn't create an idea environment for a voting system that's truly representative of the quality of work. Add to that anonymity and the ability to vote every day, and you create an environment where a determined individual can take it upon himself to reduce a chosen artist's work to being buried in the rankings. The motivations aren't always clear, maybe it's jealousy (this might be the most often touted reason), maybe it's boredom or maybe it's just general malice. Certainly some of the low scores are intended to make way for the voter's own work.

However, every 'solution' i've seen proposed is unworkable for one reason or another. 'Make the votes public!' is a common cry. What does this really accomplish? New accounts are free, and people may well be able to bypass the limitations placed on the voting system. (This is up for debate, but it wouldn't surprise me).

"make the scores based purely on reviews!" has some merit. It (hypothetically) limits each user to a single vote, and requires at least some amount of input and effort. This is probably the best of the ideas that i've heard, however then we're left policing hundreds and thousands of spammy reviews, and new accounts are still free.

These are the two big ones that come to mind (i haven't slept tonight, so I may be forgetting some), and I've definitely heard them both a lot.

Regarding the commonly accepted wisdom that 'scores don't matter', and the sentiment that the voting system is the crux of the entire portal, that the rankings depend on it and so forth, that is true. However, you have to ask yourself if the rankings REALLY matter. Why do you want to be in the top 30? So you can get a hundred 10 reviews that say 'great job' ?

I don't know. These are just some of my thoughts on the subject.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 03:20:50 Reply

I like the system actually ! I've come to realise its genius. Yeah sometimes you get a half-assed song or two on the top 5 or some person creates there first submission and instantaneously gets views 5000 views, but isn't that life? If you look at most of those songs on the top 20, they will have say around 1000-10000 views.

Now when Paragonx9 makes a song, It will have say, 50k views in a matter of days. This is because paragonX9 has been around for a long time. like since newgrounds started, and she (or he i dont know lol) makes some really good shit, in fact I dont know a song of hers that isnt awesome. And when chronomaut makes a new song, he gets like 30 reviews or so in the first 3 days, and a lot of views aswell. His last song didnt even go on the top 20 but he got so many reviews. That's because chronomaut has been around for a long time, and man does he have a lot of songs but he also has reviewed like 500 or so people.

Damn 500 thats a heck of a lot. Ive reviewed around 100 people and ive been around for a year. It works out to be about once per day for me. I often review a chunck of songs just before and after i make a song. And when i do that i get shit loads of reviews in the song i made. Even if chronomaut and paragon x9 had a song that was rated 0 flat, it would still have shit loads of views and a heck lot of reviews that will probably be all 10's. The idea is to review people and make good songs. You can also try being active on the forums, its all been said before. I was kinda just ranting lol.

I think the idea of the top 5 and top 20 is kinda just to randomly get some good songs moving around newgrounds.
Eventually any song will move off the list in a matter of weeks or months. Eventually new songs, made by a bunch of people you've never heard of will appear on the list. Heck they may be good but they certainly wont be ear rape. And then those songs will go away and you will have some new ones. Its all about the new stuff, to keep it rolling. Every now and then you might get a mighty paragonx9 song on the list but then that will go away in a month or two. As long as you review people and make good songs, in time, you will see many reviews and views, but dont look on the top 20 to judge how popular you really are! And thats my rant. TADA!

Kirbyfemur
Kirbyfemur
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 14:18:14 Reply

Whether or not this is a way to help the zerovotting problem i don't know, but it might help someone.

We could make Heavy metal it's own Genre, because it's kinda of a vague genre to be put just within rock. I know that to most of us it all sounds the same. But it might be important somehow, i don't know. Maybe it could look something like this:

- Heavy Metal -
Metal (Instrumental)
Death Metal
Power Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal
Fused Metal

The fused metal would be stuff like rapcore ad other mixtures of genres. Tis just an idea though. It might help with exposure to those certain types of music, since i know there are a lot of people Who like metal, but without the "GRAAWWWW!!!" screaming everywhere, so yeah. I hope this hasn't been suggested to many times before, just a thought as i've said, now probably to the point of redundancy. lol

Though about the zero voting, It would seem like Lilim (Don't know how to spell it) has put a lot more thought into it than a lot of us, if not all of us. So unless we can think up something a bit more original than than the same suggestions, then we might as well find something else to talk about. 'Cause i'm guessing the vote/review system the way it is, is supposed to help balance one another out. The vote thing is for the lazy asses, and the review is for those who actually get somewhat more into the musics. This is my theory.

Oh and I just had a thought, maybe have a Genre just for covers, since the all genre's seem to be flooded by them everyday lol Maybe help give the other people who are doing their own stuff better exposure. Okays, my thought's are done now. =3

loansindi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 14:25:24 Reply

At 8/18/09 02:18 PM, Kirbyfemur wrote: make moar genres

The issue is, we can't subdivide the genres even a little, because if we make special metal subgenres, then there would be people clamoring for a genre to put every single variant of electronic music. "But I don't make breakhouseambicore! i need a genre for it!'

And when that happens, it becomes impossible to find what you're looking for, in a whole new way.