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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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Argyros
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:34:27 Reply

At 8/14/09 05:24 PM, Calamaistr wrote:
Stop acting like its about me

If it's not about you, then why do you care so much?
Stop clogging up this thread, it's for giving people much-needed exposure to their songs, not for ranting. Go make a newspost if you're so passionate about your opinions.

Best of luck with your next submission.

Buoy
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-14 17:34:29 Reply

At 8/14/09 05:24 PM, Calamaistr wrote: My discussion was about the definition of music and how i think that music is something to be respected when done right but today apparently that is not the way music is viewed, its now handled like something that is right for aslong you can wave your reproductive organs around on its beat.

See my above post, I rest my case...

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:13:17 Reply

This is quite a good thread and i must agree but i also had a decent idea to counter 0 voting.

Make giving a 0-5 score only possible after youve actually done a review on a particular track.

Why? then atleast its obvious who is actually grieving someone intentionally, and who is giving a low score because they didnt like something about your song.

And about giving up your ability to 5vote your own stuff daily, well that makes it also alot more fair in the whole portal now doesnt it? (unless there are so many grievers around that staff would have way to much on their hands dealing with it, i think this system would improve the portal quite alot.)

regards- Calamaistr.


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Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:23:05 Reply

please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:33:36 Reply

At 8/16/09 07:23 PM, Chronamut wrote: please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.

Whoever is going to read 16 pages. Its a good idea.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:35:34 Reply

At 8/16/09 07:33 PM, Calamaistr wrote:
At 8/16/09 07:23 PM, Chronamut wrote: please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.
Whoever is going to read 16 pages. Its a good idea.

I guess liljim just can't be assed to read 16 pages then - which means your idea nd noone elses would never be heeded.

that's bullshit man - if you can't be assed to read what other people have written why should anyone even listen to you? Its an idea that's already been shot down.

Calamaistr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-16 19:51:05 Reply

At 8/16/09 07:35 PM, Chronamut wrote:
At 8/16/09 07:33 PM, Calamaistr wrote:
At 8/16/09 07:23 PM, Chronamut wrote: please read the entire thread and you will see that idea has been brought up several times.
Whoever is going to read 16 pages. Its a good idea.
I guess liljim just can't be assed to read 16 pages then - which means your idea nd noone elses would never be heeded.

that's bullshit man - if you can't be assed to read what other people have written why should anyone even listen to you? Its an idea that's already been shot down.

Well i just respectfully disagree that it should be kept down untill it has been tried.
Unless someone official comes in and tells us all 'it wont ever be tried, we will carry on with a collection of assholes that may or may not completely ruin the whole purpose of a voting system nevertheless because we dont feel like bothering with them anymore, people like that exist and there just isnt anything we can do about it except for making sure that whenever we catch our own children acting like that on their computer we give them a good slap in the back of the head for it, then rip out the internet connection, put it around their necks and dropkick them trough the 2nd floor window.'

Untill then, ill contest it.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

MJTTOMB
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-17 08:23:39 Reply

For the past two months some individual has voted 0 on every last one of my most recent 50 or so submissions. EVERY DAY. my scores are now averaging 2.9, having dropped from a comfortable 4.1-ish average. Scores don't matter, but there's a difference between random zerovoting and pure hate. It hurts.


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PeterSatera
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-17 08:59:07 Reply

Im surprised that very little is done to rectify the situation of zero bombing, especially since NG already realises and recognise it as a massive problem.

The majority of Vet users state that the voting system should be ignored and does not represent the suggestive quality and likabilty of a song. However, by making such a statement you enforce one of the main features on this website to become redundant, and it shouldn't be like that. The feature is accountable to the way projects are sorted, so its one of the most important.

I accept that people Blam. It doesn't effect me much because I make music for enjoyment and release. It doesn't effect me making more. But other people are driven by their music, and get easily offended when someone says "it sux", especially when they put countless hours into it. For the people who look at their score and feel that the music they have submitted is worth more , then remember the factors of zero blamming. People do it because your music could not be of their taste, they could dislike the approach to the track, they could be jealous. They may do it because their music is scoring low, so bringing down someone else gets them that slight chance of being more recognised (which may be the reason why the two big blamming areas - classical and video game is getting smaller score all the time).

In my opinion though the majority of time I would think it were to do with that being bad is more fun than being good. It is, lets be honest. And what makes it more fun being bad, is when you can't get caught. Im not suggesting anyone should be bad, im merely telling the wounded from the 0 bombers why it happens.

Unfortunately it occurs, but people will recognise you if your work is good. Look at how many people favourite you or your track that is where the truth in how good your music is.


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loansindi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-17 09:21:45 Reply

Okay, here's some sleepless musings on the idea of zero voting.

The thing about the portals here on newgrounds, both flash and audio, is that the signal to noise ratio is... less than good. The flash portal shows this quite a bit better than the audio portal (as evinced by the blam system), but I would bet if I looked at the latest 50 audio submissions I would find a large number of them to fall into the 'noise' side of that ratio. Whether they're silly/spammy 'voice acting' submissions, another generic dance/electro track that uses the same presets everyone bitches about, linkin park's latest single, a midi-ripped mario theme or god knows what else, they're not really up to the snuff of some of the really great artists. (Don't get me wrong, a few of my submissions fall into the 'noise' category, without any shadow of a doubt.)

What does this have to do with zero voting? It's hard to say, but I think we can agree that it doesn't create an idea environment for a voting system that's truly representative of the quality of work. Add to that anonymity and the ability to vote every day, and you create an environment where a determined individual can take it upon himself to reduce a chosen artist's work to being buried in the rankings. The motivations aren't always clear, maybe it's jealousy (this might be the most often touted reason), maybe it's boredom or maybe it's just general malice. Certainly some of the low scores are intended to make way for the voter's own work.

However, every 'solution' i've seen proposed is unworkable for one reason or another. 'Make the votes public!' is a common cry. What does this really accomplish? New accounts are free, and people may well be able to bypass the limitations placed on the voting system. (This is up for debate, but it wouldn't surprise me).

"make the scores based purely on reviews!" has some merit. It (hypothetically) limits each user to a single vote, and requires at least some amount of input and effort. This is probably the best of the ideas that i've heard, however then we're left policing hundreds and thousands of spammy reviews, and new accounts are still free.

These are the two big ones that come to mind (i haven't slept tonight, so I may be forgetting some), and I've definitely heard them both a lot.

Regarding the commonly accepted wisdom that 'scores don't matter', and the sentiment that the voting system is the crux of the entire portal, that the rankings depend on it and so forth, that is true. However, you have to ask yourself if the rankings REALLY matter. Why do you want to be in the top 30? So you can get a hundred 10 reviews that say 'great job' ?

I don't know. These are just some of my thoughts on the subject.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 03:20:50 Reply

I like the system actually ! I've come to realise its genius. Yeah sometimes you get a half-assed song or two on the top 5 or some person creates there first submission and instantaneously gets views 5000 views, but isn't that life? If you look at most of those songs on the top 20, they will have say around 1000-10000 views.

Now when Paragonx9 makes a song, It will have say, 50k views in a matter of days. This is because paragonX9 has been around for a long time. like since newgrounds started, and she (or he i dont know lol) makes some really good shit, in fact I dont know a song of hers that isnt awesome. And when chronomaut makes a new song, he gets like 30 reviews or so in the first 3 days, and a lot of views aswell. His last song didnt even go on the top 20 but he got so many reviews. That's because chronomaut has been around for a long time, and man does he have a lot of songs but he also has reviewed like 500 or so people.

Damn 500 thats a heck of a lot. Ive reviewed around 100 people and ive been around for a year. It works out to be about once per day for me. I often review a chunck of songs just before and after i make a song. And when i do that i get shit loads of reviews in the song i made. Even if chronomaut and paragon x9 had a song that was rated 0 flat, it would still have shit loads of views and a heck lot of reviews that will probably be all 10's. The idea is to review people and make good songs. You can also try being active on the forums, its all been said before. I was kinda just ranting lol.

I think the idea of the top 5 and top 20 is kinda just to randomly get some good songs moving around newgrounds.
Eventually any song will move off the list in a matter of weeks or months. Eventually new songs, made by a bunch of people you've never heard of will appear on the list. Heck they may be good but they certainly wont be ear rape. And then those songs will go away and you will have some new ones. Its all about the new stuff, to keep it rolling. Every now and then you might get a mighty paragonx9 song on the list but then that will go away in a month or two. As long as you review people and make good songs, in time, you will see many reviews and views, but dont look on the top 20 to judge how popular you really are! And thats my rant. TADA!

Kirbyfemur
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 14:18:14 Reply

Whether or not this is a way to help the zerovotting problem i don't know, but it might help someone.

We could make Heavy metal it's own Genre, because it's kinda of a vague genre to be put just within rock. I know that to most of us it all sounds the same. But it might be important somehow, i don't know. Maybe it could look something like this:

- Heavy Metal -
Metal (Instrumental)
Death Metal
Power Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal
Fused Metal

The fused metal would be stuff like rapcore ad other mixtures of genres. Tis just an idea though. It might help with exposure to those certain types of music, since i know there are a lot of people Who like metal, but without the "GRAAWWWW!!!" screaming everywhere, so yeah. I hope this hasn't been suggested to many times before, just a thought as i've said, now probably to the point of redundancy. lol

Though about the zero voting, It would seem like Lilim (Don't know how to spell it) has put a lot more thought into it than a lot of us, if not all of us. So unless we can think up something a bit more original than than the same suggestions, then we might as well find something else to talk about. 'Cause i'm guessing the vote/review system the way it is, is supposed to help balance one another out. The vote thing is for the lazy asses, and the review is for those who actually get somewhat more into the musics. This is my theory.

Oh and I just had a thought, maybe have a Genre just for covers, since the all genre's seem to be flooded by them everyday lol Maybe help give the other people who are doing their own stuff better exposure. Okays, my thought's are done now. =3

loansindi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 14:25:24 Reply

At 8/18/09 02:18 PM, Kirbyfemur wrote: make moar genres

The issue is, we can't subdivide the genres even a little, because if we make special metal subgenres, then there would be people clamoring for a genre to put every single variant of electronic music. "But I don't make breakhouseambicore! i need a genre for it!'

And when that happens, it becomes impossible to find what you're looking for, in a whole new way.

Kirbyfemur
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 14:52:06 Reply

At 8/18/09 02:25 PM, loansindi wrote:
At 8/18/09 02:18 PM, Kirbyfemur wrote: make moar genres
The issue is, we can't subdivide the genres even a little, because if we make special metal subgenres, then there would be people clamoring for a genre to put every single variant of electronic music. "But I don't make breakhouseambicore! i need a genre for it!'

And when that happens, it becomes impossible to find what you're looking for, in a whole new way.

Eh was an idea. I was just thinking some of the genre's might have been a bit to vague. Like General rock and Heavy metal. General rock sound like you almost wouldn't need any other rock genres, almost like anything can go there, but that's just me. And Heavy Metal eh i tried explaining that in the last post. But my idea isn't valid i guess. But eh, at least it's not another "Hey make the vote system so that you have to do something in the review thing first" or some shtuuff like that.

loansindi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 15:09:26 Reply

At 8/18/09 02:52 PM, Kirbyfemur wrote:
But eh, at least it's not another "Hey make the vote system so that you have to do something in the review thing first" or some shtuuff like that.

But, to be fair, it IS another 'hey we need more genres' idea... we've had plenty of those.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 15:57:41 Reply

Personally, while on the field of genres - I'd want to see the genre "Original Soundtrack" or similiar - as classical music is more for listening than actual use.
In addition much of the classical submissions here are really not even classical'ish - just using a symphonic orchestra, which is different.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 16:13:58 Reply

What if on the voting system, it publicly shows how many people have voted for which number? So at least people could see then what type of voting has been cast on the track/song

sorta like

Date submitted - today
Genre - blah

Vote Cast
5 - 20 votes
4 - 14 votes
3 - 16 votes
2 - 19 votes
1 - 3 votes
0 - 20,000,000 votes

Just an idea, pro's and con's?


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 18:36:51 Reply

At 8/18/09 04:13 PM, itsfoxhall wrote: What if on the voting system, it publicly shows how many people have voted for which number? So at least people could see then what type of voting has been cast on the track/song

Just an idea, pro's and con's?

To what benefit?

krssvr
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 18:55:22 Reply

Maybe it could look something like this:

- Heavy Metal -
Metal (Instrumental)
Death Metal
Power Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal
Fused Metal

here's a sample of what would happen...

say i was uploading a song... now what should i categorize it as?.... well lets look:

8-bit
A cappella
Acid Jazz
Alternative dance
Alternative hip hop
Alternative metal
Alternative rock
Anti-folk
Bachata
Baile Funk
Banda
Baroque music
Batá-rumba
Batucada
Beat
Beatboxing
Big band music
Big Beat
Black ambient
Black metal
Bitpop
Bolero
Bouncy Techno
Brass Band
Breakbeat
Breakbeat Hardcore
Breakcore
Chamber Jazz
Comedy Rap
Comedy Rock
Corrido
Country Rap
Crossover Music
Crunk
Cumbia
Dance
Dance Punk
Dance Rock
Dark Ambient
Darkcore
Dirty South
Disco-House
Drum and Bass
Dub
Dub House
Dubtronica
Dubstep
Easy Listening
Electro
Electro Backbeat
Electro Hop
Electro Industrial
Eurotrance
Freestyle
Freestyle House
Funk
Fusion Jazz
Gangsta Rap
Garage Rock
Ghetto House
Grunge
Hands Up
Happy Hardcore
Hardcore Techno
Hard House
Hardstyle
Hard Trance
Hard Rock
Heavy Metal
Hip Hop
Hip House
House
Indie Music
Industrial Hip Hop
Industrial
Instrumental
Jazz
Jazz Funk
Jumpstyle

and this is just to the letter J

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-18 20:23:58 Reply

My two-penn'orth:

I've been on a lot of sites: Soundclick, the old MP3.com (remember them?) Vitaminici, youtube etc etc etc. The rating systems of all of them were/are abused by trolls and youngsters in millions of more and more inventive ways every day. What I learned from all this is that ratings don't matter. They're worthless and admins who instigate them are not thinking clearly or (rather thinking money from click$$$$$$orz). Best way to judge your work's reception is by comments, plain and simple. They're honest and they're from someone at least partially grown-up with a brain who's taken some time out to let you know how cool you are or how very very hard you suck the big one and why. If you're to put your work out for the whole world to see, you need a thick skin!

Communities work best when people communicate...about everything. Let the trolls, cheatmeisters, spam artists and kiddiwinks have their harmless fun, they'll never join in a conversation and therefore betray themselves (apologies to genuine people who're just shy and retiring, but you've no need to be...no one can see you here dude!)

As to exposure to the coder and game-maker community here...let the lazy buggers come and plough through the offerings here one by one, and they'll soon come up with their own clever and ingenious way to minimise the amount of time they spend listening to twenty thousand BassC...I mean BassHunter remixes. Trust me...I know how they work... :)

Relax guys...music's fun!

TTFN!

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 06:06:54 Reply

At 8/18/09 06:36 PM, loansindi wrote:
To what benefit?

People would at least see that the song has been bombed, or a really really aweful track, and whether the artist who subbmitted it also kept giving it 5/5, personally i think artists shouldn't be able to vote on their own tracks


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 06:23:21 Reply

At 8/19/09 06:06 AM, itsfoxhall wrote:
At 8/18/09 06:36 PM, loansindi wrote:
To what benefit?
People would at least see that the song has been bombed, or a really really aweful track, and whether the artist who subbmitted it also kept giving it 5/5, personally i think artists shouldn't be able to vote on their own tracks

If people can see who zerobombed them there will only be more zerobombers, because people will bomb them back. And then the people who were bombed back will become angry and will bomb back again etc.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 07:12:05 Reply

At 8/19/09 06:23 AM, MH16 wrote:
At 8/19/09 06:06 AM, itsfoxhall wrote:
At 8/18/09 06:36 PM, loansindi wrote:
To what benefit?
People would at least see that the song has been bombed, or a really really aweful track, and whether the artist who subbmitted it also kept giving it 5/5, personally i think artists shouldn't be able to vote on their own tracks
If people can see who zerobombed them there will only be more zerobombers, because people will bomb them back. And then the people who were bombed back will become angry and will bomb back again etc.

So, the only remedy is to have a giant brawl irl. Atleast it would take care of things since the internet is like godmode.


Original, classical and retro videogame music composer. (No longer take project clients from newgrounds but if you need a track or two from what ive got pm me.)

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 07:32:33 Reply

At 8/19/09 07:12 AM, Calamaistr wrote: So, the only remedy is to have a giant brawl irl. Atleast it would take care of things since the internet is like godmode.

The only remedy is to stop caring about your scores.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 07:36:52 Reply

At 8/19/09 07:32 AM, MH16 wrote:
At 8/19/09 07:12 AM, Calamaistr wrote: So, the only remedy is to have a giant brawl irl. Atleast it would take care of things since the internet is like godmode.
The only remedy is to stop caring about your scores.

Then NG should remove the whole 5 star rating system cause it serves no other purpose than attract people who only click it for their internetballs. (that they dont have irl)

I personally dont care about my scores, like other people said the only measure for your music is if people want to use it for their flash, review it and/or download it (especially the last ofcourse)

But there has to be a 'knoop doorhakken' here. (thats dutch, look it up)


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 07:51:47 Reply

At 8/19/09 07:36 AM, Calamaistr wrote: Then NG should remove the whole 5 star rating system cause it serves no other purpose than attract people who only click it for their internetballs. (that they dont have irl)

The rating system works fine for the Flash portal.
And it doesn't only attrack people who just click, but there's a group of those people that spoils it for the rest.

I personally dont care about my scores, like other people said the only measure for your music is if people want to use it for their flash, review it and/or download it (especially the last ofcourse)

But there has to be a 'knoop doorhakken' here. (thats dutch, look it up)

I am dutch too, but i have no clue what you're trying to say here. You mean there need to be some chances made fast? Because if you do, i don't agree. Before any changes are made you must be certain that it will do only good and doesn't make things worse.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 08:27:28 Reply

would ng take away the audio votes then? it would stop the whining about bombing etc, but what will it cause?

download bombing??


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 09:34:00 Reply

At 8/19/09 08:27 AM, itsfoxhall wrote: would ng take away the audio votes then? it would stop the whining about bombing etc, but what will it cause?

download bombing??

Well, if NG would take away the ratings for audio, then how would things like the weekly top 5 be chosen? If it is by the amount of downloads then there has to be a restriction on the amount of times you can download a song with your account. That wouldn't be good, because maybe i want to download it also on another computer or something.
Also, that's not a safe system.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 10:06:14 Reply

At 8/17/09 09:21 AM, loansindi wrote: "make the scores based purely on reviews!" has some merit. It (hypothetically) limits each user to a single vote, and requires at least some amount of input and effort. This is probably the best of the ideas that i've heard, however then we're left policing hundreds and thousands of spammy reviews, and new accounts are still free.

However, there is a way to stop that. Curently Newground tracks IP voting, so you can only vote on a song once a day. Add that into your equation and what you would get is a voting system that means anytime someone would want to revote on your music they would have to make a new account every day just to spite you. 0 Blams are quick, thats the nature of them. People think Eff them, and hit 0. It's the same kind of mindset which comes with the can't be a$$ed attitude. This way, the majority of random spammers would have to actually work to drop the score of an audio track.

With every 0 they would give, it would have to be done day by day, by new account by new account (of remember passwords and new names). Thats alot of work for someone who wants to be an a$$. Im not saying that those people dont exist, but it would be a minor percentage of people compared to the massive amount now.

It creates the problem that only people can vote once and only once. But thats not a bad thing. It makes people think more about what an audio track deserves, it also enforces crits to be given as you name is linked to the score, so your reputation (so to speak) is at hand. Overall it would give you a true score instead of someone voting 0 on you ten times, or someone giving you a 5 ten times. Really it should be one vote, once per track.

:)


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Chronamut
Chronamut
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2009-08-19 10:53:04 Reply

it used to be one vote - once per track - you guys then complained that you could only vote once per track - and dispaired when your song dropped to the bottom of the barrel - and you yourself could do nothing to raise it back up. So stop whining over every change they make.