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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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Cuzone
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 1st, 2009 @ 12:02 PM Reply

Yesterday I had again an example of the fact that: Nobody votes.

I had one of my songs on the top 3 of "ambient music", it stayed there for all day long, more than 100 people have listened to the song... Nobody voted.
People only vote when they think the score is too big, and thats what happened, somebody listen to the song today and gave me a 4 or 3. Its not that I really mind all of this score and placing, but the fact is: On newgrounds audio, people only listen to your songs if its on the top, and people DON'T vote if they agree with the score, cause there is no motivation to vote at all.

People only vote 1:
- When they think your song don't deserve that high score
2:
- When your song is in front of theirs, on the top.

So honestly.
Motivate people to vote and low scores/zero bombing/exposure would not be a problem anymore. If 1/10 of all people.

Flash portal example of views/votes (recently submetted flash):
215 votes | 279 views

Audio porta example (my most "popular song")
86 votes | 740 listens

I actually don't see why the audio portal don't give experience points or why there is no blam and saves here. It looks like this is just a depot for audio, like a forgotten small room of the flash portal that when somebody want something they go there.....
hey.... wait.... nevermind.


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babyma
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 08:58 AM Reply

HERE'S AN IDEA:

GET RID OF DUAL RATING SYSTEMS.

BY DUAL RATING SYSTEMS, I AM REFERRING TO THE FACT THAT THERE IS A 5-POINT RATING SYSTEM (WITH THE BLACK DUDE) AND A 10-POINT RATING SYSTEM (REVIEW).

The 10-point rating system (review) should stay.

The 5-point rating system should leave.

Why?

It doesn't make sense.

Why have two different rating systems when you only need one? Especially one that comes with a review?

Why allow multiple votes?

Why have an anonymous, flawed voting system (flawed in the sense that since it's anonymous, people will often feel obliged to vote 0 or 5 to "zero-bomb" or "even out the score" when in fact their rating of 0 or 5 is generally not reflective of their true thoughts of the song [if they even have thoughts about the song -- chances are voters who are not the author probably vote 0 without even listening to it] [plus, the author can just consistently vote 5s over time to raise their score -- doesn't make much sense)?

Why not eliminate this flawed voting system and have one that is much more likely reflective of the author's views (which can be inferred from the actual review), and, since it's not anonymous and not open to multiple votes, will demotivate people from immature voting behavior?

The same could feasibly be said for the flash portal, but the voting issues mainly occur with the audio portal so I'm bringing it up here.

This policy has never made much sense to me. You rarely see any other sites that have a dual rating system, especially one where one of the rating systems is very flawed.

IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, NEWGROUNDS. GET RID OF YOUR NOSTALGIC FEELINGS FOR THE LITTLE BLACK DUDE AND BAN THAT MOTHERFUGGER.

runpoochrun
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 09:00 AM Reply

At 3/3/09 08:58 AM, babyma wrote:
GET RID OF DUAL RATING SYSTEMS.

I've been thinking that all along.

Why the hell are there dual rating systems to begin with?

AndMyRuneaxe
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 10:56 AM Reply

Tom Fulp just needs to give us more love.

Klasmus
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 10:56 AM Reply

At 3/3/09 08:58 AM, babyma wrote:
IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, NEWGROUNDS. GET RID OF YOUR NOSTALGIC FEELINGS FOR THE LITTLE BLACK DUDE AND BAN THAT MOTHERFUGGER.

Haha. I just imagine some 13yr old getting on newgrounds fapping and clicking on random songs, "What? This isn't TRANCE!!!!"
There goes your score ;3


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babyma
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 04:07 PM Reply

At 3/3/09 10:56 AM, Klasmus wrote: Haha. I just imagine some 13yr old getting on newgrounds fapping and clicking on random songs, "What? This isn't TRANCE!!!!"
There goes your score ;3

I just got a PM from name withheld in response to my post:

"Even worse, some people just go through all of the songs in the "New Submissions" list and rate them 0s without even listening to them, and if they do listen to them and actually love the song enough to download it, they rate the songs 0 anyway because they're sadistic bitches and it gives them pleasure. It's funny rating the song as 0 right after they submit it, and before the author has had a chance to rate it 5 (that seems to be the de facto author rating -- why the hell would the author rate their song any lower unless they were really insecure/stupid?), causing the rating to display "0.0 (unchanged)". Hell, I spend 3-5 hours a day doing this and it makes me so happy I sometimes get off on it."

Yeah, the guy who PMd me this is fucked. Point taken: NG, the black dude is just causing trouble. He belongs on the front page only.

runpoochrun
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 04:12 PM Reply

At 3/3/09 04:07 PM, babyma wrote: Yeah, the guy who PMd me this is fucked. Point taken: NG, the black dude is just causing trouble. He belongs on the front page only.

The front of the bus, you mean?

My idea was that since the black guy seems to be a Newgounds icon and it would be sad to lose such a memorable character, we should destroy the current 5-point system, and change the current 10-point system into a 5-point system WITH the black guy, in combination with a review. For example, when you post a review, the little box for writing your review will pop up, and right above that will be the rating system (which currently displays 10 stars), but instead of 10 stars, it would be the 5 black guys; they keep the speech bubbles and crap, but when you click on them, it doesn't automatically submit the rating/review -- it just lights up or something to denote that you've rated it. Your review/rating doesn't get submitted until you actually press "Submit Review".

crimsonballs93
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 04:13 PM Reply

At 3/3/09 04:12 PM, runpoochrun wrote:
Ingenuity.

Brilliant, my feline friend. Just brilliant.

babyma
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 04:14 PM Reply

At 3/3/09 04:13 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote:
At 3/3/09 04:12 PM, runpoochrun wrote:
Ingenuity.
Brilliant, my feline friend. Just brilliant.

I concur.

runpoochrun
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 04:14 PM Reply

At 3/3/09 04:14 PM, babyma wrote:
At 3/3/09 04:13 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote:
At 3/3/09 04:12 PM, runpoochrun wrote:
Ingenuity.
Brilliant, my feline friend. Just brilliant.
I concur.

Thank you.

runpoochrun
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Mar. 3rd, 2009 @ 04:50 PM Reply

At 3/3/09 10:56 AM, AndMyRuneaxe wrote: Tom Fulp just needs to give us more love.

He gave me plenty of love last night.

My cock is in shambles right now. It looks like a rotten tomato and my pants are stained red and white.

Slipstreamer
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 13th, 2009 @ 12:15 PM Reply

Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work and ask for a vote/review in return.
I've gotten top 5 and front page multiple times doing that.
Quit bitching about your scores and do some work to get them higher.
Don't just sit there and bitch about the system.


Certified audiophreak, lv 60.

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Zero123Music
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 13th, 2009 @ 03:09 PM Reply

At 5/13/09 12:15 PM, Slipstreamer wrote: Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work and ask for a vote/review in return.
I've gotten top 5 and front page multiple times doing that.
Quit bitching about your scores and do some work to get them higher.
Don't just sit there and bitch about the system.

You sir, have it perfect.

It's so simple and flawless, it just makes me feel stupid and stubborn thinking that the system was to blame.
Thankyou

enders1
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 13th, 2009 @ 09:31 PM Reply

well Im really not bothered with the zero points stuff, I mean, if 2 or 5 five reviews says that they love my music, Im happy.


Want a test about nightmares? are you able to sleep without nightmares after hearing this
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/lis ten/237908
leave me a review if you think you can

LK412
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 13th, 2009 @ 09:33 PM Reply

At 5/13/09 12:15 PM, Slipstreamer wrote: Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work

Funny, i never get those from you, only half assed reviews that don't help me for shit.

nal1200
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 13th, 2009 @ 11:36 PM Reply

At 5/13/09 09:33 PM, LK412 wrote:
At 5/13/09 12:15 PM, Slipstreamer wrote: Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work
Funny, i never get those from you, only half assed reviews that don't help me for shit.

Hey now.

I checked some of Slipstreamer's reviews and a lot of them were detailed and informed. Granted, he may not have left YOU a great review, but at least he's got the generally right idea.

LK412
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 14th, 2009 @ 08:53 PM Reply

At 5/13/09 11:36 PM, nal1200 wrote:
At 5/13/09 09:33 PM, LK412 wrote:
At 5/13/09 12:15 PM, Slipstreamer wrote: Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work
Funny, i never get those from you, only half assed reviews that don't help me for shit.
Hey now.

I checked some of Slipstreamer's reviews and a lot of them were detailed and informed. Granted, he may not have left YOU a great review, but at least he's got the generally right idea.

Lol hes left me like 4 reviews all of them saying he is too lazy to critique and that it really needs improvement. Why bother reviewing if he doesnt even tell me whats wrong.

Nav
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 19th, 2009 @ 10:18 PM Reply

0 bombing is up and reviews are down. I know it sucks, thank Tom for adding money to the equation.

Does anyone have any ideas now about it? I have a few of my own, but I'll wait until tomorrow to type them out.

Krank
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 19th, 2009 @ 11:11 PM Reply

At 5/19/09 10:18 PM, Nav wrote: 0 bombing is up and reviews are down. I know it sucks, thank Tom for adding money to the equation.

Does anyone have any ideas now about it? I have a few of my own, but I'll wait until tomorrow to type them out.

oh YES! getting top five now allows you to get a shit ton of profile views which means MORE MONEY FOR TOP FIVE WINNERS!

guess what that means, malicious top 5 related zero bombing is now a form of fraud for monetary gain!

BlazePyron
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 24th, 2009 @ 01:14 PM Reply

The only way I can see of fixing the rating system is to break it. Right now, the admins are either too lazy or in deniel that there's anything wrong. If there were more zerobombers then maybe someone higher up would actually take notice. I mean, right now it's not a huge problem, but if we made it one then they would be forced to fix it.

The only other way is for audio artists to start zerobombing flash work. If anything happens to the flash portal you know they're going to take notice. It's their "favorite son".

But I doubt there would be enough people doing it to actually make people take notice.


When you stare into the Abyss, the Abyss also stares back into you...

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vanguard182
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 24th, 2009 @ 01:23 PM Reply

At 5/24/09 01:14 PM, BlazePyron wrote:
The only other way is for audio artists to start zerobombing flash work. If anything happens to the flash portal you know they're going to take notice. It's their "favorite son".

careful, wouldn't want mods to think you're making a threat, not saying you are but the way it was worded makes it sound a little sketch

nathanallenpinard
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 26th, 2009 @ 04:10 PM Reply

I personally think reviews should be required with votes. Not scores. Votes.

Psil0
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 26th, 2009 @ 04:29 PM Reply

Unfortunately we won't see a change and why would I? The guy who gave me a zero could be a complete ass and now I would have to look at that review with my submission. Seriously, people could then just review "Your music sucks ass, honestly you should stop trying." Who the hell would want to look at something like that everyday? Even if the review does get removed, it doesn't change the fact that you got a zero.

PianoFortress
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 26th, 2009 @ 04:44 PM Reply

At 5/24/09 01:23 PM, vanguard182 wrote:
At 5/24/09 01:14 PM, BlazePyron wrote:
The only other way is for audio artists to start zerobombing flash work. If anything happens to the flash portal you know they're going to take notice. It's their "favorite son".
careful, wouldn't want mods to think you're making a threat, not saying you are but the way it was worded makes it sound a little sketch

Tom once posted that they watch the Flash Portal carefully and can easily spot out ppl who are zero-voting EVERY submission. He also said that you're experience might drop to zero then.

PianoFortress
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 26th, 2009 @ 04:45 PM Reply

woah, bad typo...I meant "your experience" .... sorry. It's late, I'm tired =D.

ChemicalReaper
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 30th, 2009 @ 07:03 PM Reply

What we need are some incentives of some kind for helpful reviews. Something that is NOT money (which seems to have caused the problem in the first place, judging by the sounds of it).

How about experience points? You get points for rating flash movies and games on the Flash Portal. How about allowing artists to award a certain number of points per day to *useful* reviewers? Then, if someone listens to my music and leaves a helpful review, I can give that user 15 Exp Points or something. Not a lot (giving 500 points to someone for a review would lead to abuse of the system), but enough to make it worthwhile you actually reviewing something.

Another idea would be allowing artists (and AP mods) to see who voted on their song and what rating they gave it. Then, you can instantly find the zero-bombers on the forum and maybe block them from viewing anything you upload or something like that?


Clicky, clicky!
^ No seriously; your mouse will thank you for it :D

EmperorCharlemagne
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. May. 30th, 2009 @ 07:33 PM Reply

They wouldn't do that because that would actually make the AP half-way efficient.

Joking aside, the second one would be abused, in that some hack of an audio artist would find the people who rate stuff three's or two's (yes, they HAVE to exist, I am sure of it) and bother them "y did'nt u raet my song a 5 ??? : ( "

I like the experience idea, though.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Jun. 30th, 2009 @ 09:42 PM Reply

Not taking the whole thing as in-depth as some people (and I'll admit to being one of those people who just 'suggest' barely thought out ideas) but the one thing that came to mind regarding the issue was a system where voting, say, 0-1-2 would make it a requirement to post a 'reasons why' beit through the review or whatnot.

This wouldn't stop 0-bombing or downrating in general, but it may put-off the type of people who just want to click a 0 and move on without interruption... May or may not fix much but it might throw the lazy voters off if they realise there's suddently a requirement for voting an extreme end of the voting spectrum (Again, I re-state, this hasn't been thought out and has either a) been suggested already or b) could quite possibly be a useless idea /shrug)

Personally I don't see why people wouldn't ask why that shouldn't apply to voting 'anything' as, like people already know, folks are quite capable of insta-pressing '5' vote daily on their own work, too.

I kept a check on my own song today (was released a day or two ago) and at one point it had leapt from 5.00>3.00>4.80>3.80>4.00 and I'm sure it'll keep spirally to the extreme, one way or another, until there's too many votes for low-end voters with no vote-power being able to push the vote anymore than 0.1 in which case you'll have the happy medium, whatever it may be (2/3/4) and thats ultimately where it'll generally rest without excessive votes.

Would it be right for me to religiously spam '5' on a daily basis, knowing there's probably some sad-sack out there doing the same with '0' anyway? I'd like to think I wouldn't have to as I don't like the ideo of self-voting anyway as it defeats the entire purpose of votes, and thats to get an outside view of how your work is generally percieved, though in the state it's in, this is impossible anyway.

Review wise, again, not many people are inclined to take the time to review things and the large majority I see on people work are either cringe-worthy one-liners "OMG LOEVSD IT MAEK MORE :D :D :> ^^" and the occasional long, constructive review that some dolts out there click as a 'Useless Review'.

Honestly, as someone relatively new to the audio side of NG I haven't a foggy notion of what could possibly contribute to helping with this, other than maybe taking some more time to give constructive reviews to the work I enjoy on NG and hope it makes a good example for the others who read it and encourage less hate and negativity but, hey, we know nothing like that will ever stop people who can freely zero-bomb everything in their attempt to mould/pave their way to the 'top' charts or simply because 'they can' and the same applies to self-voting.

/shrug

It's nice to at least have a discussion thread for the matter, however and who knows, maybe something will become of it ^^

MkieNedachi
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Jul. 6th, 2009 @ 03:56 PM Reply

What about limited votes?
have like 20 votes per 9 hours?

I think that would work perfectly!

Anyone else agree?


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Mich
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. Jul. 6th, 2009 @ 04:00 PM Reply

At 7/6/09 03:56 PM, MkieNedachi wrote: What about limited votes?
have like 20 votes per 9 hours?

I think that would work perfectly!

Anyone else agree?

What about the songs that are on the top lists? I'm sure that more than 20 people would like to have their vote in 9 hours.
Please think some things over before suggesting things..