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you know, best part of a year of not posting, i bob on and some things never change! It warms my heart to see that everyone still has the same problems i face everytime i dare post a song haha. All is good in the world it seems.

At 2/12/09 04:47 PM, Kaizerwolf wrote: Hmm... having to submit a comment on why the song was bombed zero is a good idea, and having comments when voting 5's on songs is good as well. This can help eliminate users who vote on their own songs hoping for Top 30 or Weekly Top 5.

Thar should be an extra comment list (seperate to reviews) so everyone that votes has to comment, 0, 5 or whatever - saying a word or two to sum it up.

Kinda like a chatbox thing where it lets you flag abusive comments and has the vote they gave next to the comment - but if that happened the script of the audio voting would have to be changed.

People would be scared to 0 bomb for no reason for fear of us knowing who it is.

anyways_ about that rumor on the auto 0 scripts; if there are auto 0 bomb scripts, can't we just make auto-5 scripts?

*btw I know the first bit should be the MK3 evolution thread so it's going in there nao :)

Theres a small problem with that though... it would create a whole new breed of 1 voters, which means that you would have to either have to submit comments on all or non.

At 2/13/09 08:11 AM, Kaizerwolf wrote: Theres a small problem with that though... it would create a whole new breed of 1 voters, which means that you would have to either have to submit comments on all or non.

when I said 0, 5 - I meant 0 to 5 (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) xD misunderstanding, sorry^^

That's why I wonder about the amount of people who won't bother voting because they have to leave a comment, and can't be bothered; thus, the script would need to be changed.

Also true. (misunderstanding was fine ^^) I do believe you are right in saying that because of comments, voting would become almost as tiresome as writing reviews. There would begin to be small comments of "fkjhg *enter key* " and the like. Voting would be considerably downsized if comments were needed, so i think just dealing with 0 Bombers is a better choice.

yea, this IS an awesome topic! that was a nice thing i found the link... :)

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1028 236

This is my solution to the problem. I honestly think it deserves it's own thread.

At 2/13/09 04:59 PM, Kaizerwolf wrote: Also true. (misunderstanding was fine ^^) I do believe you are right in saying that because of comments, voting would become almost as tiresome as writing reviews. There would begin to be small comments of "fkjhg *enter key* " and the like. Voting would be considerably downsized if comments were needed, so i think just dealing with 0 Bombers is a better choice.

Then we could flag as spam - an automated system could block a users IP for a week or something with 2 recorded spams.

At 2/13/09 05:29 PM, sdfmusic wrote: http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1028 236

This is my solution to the problem. I honestly think it deserves it's own thread.

Let me reduce this for you guys:

You join this self-governing club, vote on changes to it's policies/"moderators" of it-- the NG staff doesn't have to do anything, and you all get more reviews on your music, and thus more exposure.

By way of good faith, and tradition- "citizens" of the club decide whether or not it is right for them to continue using the services of the club-- wearing their "/signed" badge, and outlaws are handled by simply ignoring them.

It's a simple solution to all of the zero-voting and exposure issues plaguing the AP!

What I'm starting to notice is I can't tell if my songs are good or not through the score. its just about damn near impossible these days. my songs are bombarded with zero's.

Maybe i ened to stick to some more generic shit. some midi rip vg remixes

The reason why zero voting is a problem here is simple: Nobody votes on songs.

If you go to the flash portal and try to zero someone, probably your vote will be worth "0.0002" or something like that, since NOBODY and I mean NOBODY has any motivation to vote on songs (no Experience points, no Blam/Save points, Blam and Save points don't count as multipliers), most people just listen to the songs and don't vote, but, when someone go and zero your song, really affects your score.

I really think the audio portal voting should give people experience, like: 5 points on flash, 5 points on audio. Blam and Saving should be in place too, I really think this would motivate people.

A few songs I submitted in current times received scores significantly lower than when I submitted them a little over a year ago. There is not much we can do to change the zero-bombing, but there is stuff we can do to detect it and help prevent its effects.

First, make the number of votes per score visible for each song. e.g.:
5: 1 vote
4: 0 votes
3: 0 votes
2: 0 votes
1: 0 votes
0: 15094 votes
This facilitates actual "zero-bomber" detection.

Second, make it a requirement for a person to listen to an entire song before being able to rate. After all, if they haven't listened to the entire thing (or at least turned the volume down while they waited for the song to finish) then they shouldn't be qualified to rate it.

Third, make the "zero" vote count less for those users who consistently vote zero on songs, because there is a greater chance that they are zero-bombers than people who only occasionally vote zeros. A similar voting system has been implemented on IMDB, where the votes of people who consistently vote 0s and 10s count less whenever they vote 0s or 10s respectively.

Fourth, although this may be pushing it a bit, restrict voting temporarily (e.g. a few days) for those who consistently zero-bomb; this acts as a clear consequence to their zero-bombing behavior.

At 2/13/09 05:06 AM, Zero123Music wrote: People would be scared to 0 bomb for no reason for fear of us knowing who it is.

Not that this is a bad idea, but wouldn't that be kind of wrong? Basically, it'd be like changing the voting system in the US. If people knew who I was voting for, there would be no need for voting booths. Zero bombing sucks, so I think it'd be much better that reviews and votes go together. Like this.
In order to review, you must vote, and vice versa. However, we don't get to know what they vote, we just get to see our review. Then, I think NG or someone, should be able to screen the reviews before they're submitted. But that would take a large team of people, wouldn't it?

I really think the audio portal voting should give people experience, like: 5 points on flash, 5 points on audio. Blam and Saving should be in place too, I really think this would motivate people.

this comment makes the most sence NG must motivade people to vote fairly on the subimissions!

At 2/28/09 07:13 PM, Everlasting-Elements wrote:

At 2/13/09 05:06 AM, Zero123Music wrote: People would be scared to 0 bomb for no reason for fear of us knowing who it is.

Not that this is a bad idea, but wouldn't that be kind of wrong? Basically, it'd be like changing the voting system in the US. If people knew who I was voting for, there would be no need for voting booths.

What would be wrong with having no voting booths?

"WHat!? You ain't voting for Obama!? IMA BLOW A CAP ON YO BITCHASS!"

Seriously, music is not politics and art elsewhere gets graded by people and judges who voice their opinions and explanations. Like I said in the first page of the thread, i'm all for making the votes non-anonmyous or the review having weight on the VP. you'll definetly open up more problems but in this rubix cube of a situation but it's all about which side you want to land on. Apparently, the ideals of NG are not for the possible solutions that have been presented in this thread thus far.

Why note change the system so it makes it better?
It would get rid of 0 bombing and keep things anonymous to a certain degree.

Make it so that whenever a person votes, they need to give a valid explaination why they voted that. That way the artist will get more critique.
If it was 0 bombed, the voter would have to give a very good explaination why. For the case of the audio portal, make it so that only MEMBERS can vote. So that if it was 0 bombed, and the explaination was shitty like "it sucked" or no explaination at all, the 0 bomb would get reported to a mod, and thereafter would maybe ban the user. The artist wouldn't know who 0 bombed (although that might be a big blow to the balls), but the artist would know that 0 bombers are going away 1 at a time.
The same might be for the 5 bombers too.

Yesterday I had again an example of the fact that: Nobody votes.

I had one of my songs on the top 3 of "ambient music", it stayed there for all day long, more than 100 people have listened to the song... Nobody voted.
People only vote when they think the score is too big, and thats what happened, somebody listen to the song today and gave me a 4 or 3. Its not that I really mind all of this score and placing, but the fact is: On newgrounds audio, people only listen to your songs if its on the top, and people DON'T vote if they agree with the score, cause there is no motivation to vote at all.

People only vote 1:
- When they think your song don't deserve that high score
2:
- When your song is in front of theirs, on the top.

So honestly.
Motivate people to vote and low scores/zero bombing/exposure would not be a problem anymore. If 1/10 of all people.

Flash portal example of views/votes (recently submetted flash):
215 votes | 279 views

Audio porta example (my most "popular song")
86 votes | 740 listens

I actually don't see why the audio portal don't give experience points or why there is no blam and saves here. It looks like this is just a depot for audio, like a forgotten small room of the flash portal that when somebody want something they go there.....
hey.... wait.... nevermind.

HERE'S AN IDEA:

GET RID OF DUAL RATING SYSTEMS.

BY DUAL RATING SYSTEMS, I AM REFERRING TO THE FACT THAT THERE IS A 5-POINT RATING SYSTEM (WITH THE BLACK DUDE) AND A 10-POINT RATING SYSTEM (REVIEW).

The 10-point rating system (review) should stay.

The 5-point rating system should leave.

Why?

It doesn't make sense.

Why have two different rating systems when you only need one? Especially one that comes with a review?

Why allow multiple votes?

Why have an anonymous, flawed voting system (flawed in the sense that since it's anonymous, people will often feel obliged to vote 0 or 5 to "zero-bomb" or "even out the score" when in fact their rating of 0 or 5 is generally not reflective of their true thoughts of the song [if they even have thoughts about the song -- chances are voters who are not the author probably vote 0 without even listening to it] [plus, the author can just consistently vote 5s over time to raise their score -- doesn't make much sense)?

Why not eliminate this flawed voting system and have one that is much more likely reflective of the author's views (which can be inferred from the actual review), and, since it's not anonymous and not open to multiple votes, will demotivate people from immature voting behavior?

The same could feasibly be said for the flash portal, but the voting issues mainly occur with the audio portal so I'm bringing it up here.

This policy has never made much sense to me. You rarely see any other sites that have a dual rating system, especially one where one of the rating systems is very flawed.

IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, NEWGROUNDS. GET RID OF YOUR NOSTALGIC FEELINGS FOR THE LITTLE BLACK DUDE AND BAN THAT MOTHERFUGGER.

At 3/3/09 08:58 AM, babyma wrote:
GET RID OF DUAL RATING SYSTEMS.

I've been thinking that all along.

Why the hell are there dual rating systems to begin with?

Tom Fulp just needs to give us more love.

At 3/3/09 08:58 AM, babyma wrote:
IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, NEWGROUNDS. GET RID OF YOUR NOSTALGIC FEELINGS FOR THE LITTLE BLACK DUDE AND BAN THAT MOTHERFUGGER.

Haha. I just imagine some 13yr old getting on newgrounds fapping and clicking on random songs, "What? This isn't TRANCE!!!!"
There goes your score ;3

At 3/3/09 10:56 AM, Klasmus wrote: Haha. I just imagine some 13yr old getting on newgrounds fapping and clicking on random songs, "What? This isn't TRANCE!!!!"
There goes your score ;3

I just got a PM from name withheld in response to my post:

"Even worse, some people just go through all of the songs in the "New Submissions" list and rate them 0s without even listening to them, and if they do listen to them and actually love the song enough to download it, they rate the songs 0 anyway because they're sadistic bitches and it gives them pleasure. It's funny rating the song as 0 right after they submit it, and before the author has had a chance to rate it 5 (that seems to be the de facto author rating -- why the hell would the author rate their song any lower unless they were really insecure/stupid?), causing the rating to display "0.0 (unchanged)". Hell, I spend 3-5 hours a day doing this and it makes me so happy I sometimes get off on it."

Yeah, the guy who PMd me this is fucked. Point taken: NG, the black dude is just causing trouble. He belongs on the front page only.

At 3/3/09 04:07 PM, babyma wrote: Yeah, the guy who PMd me this is fucked. Point taken: NG, the black dude is just causing trouble. He belongs on the front page only.

The front of the bus, you mean?

My idea was that since the black guy seems to be a Newgounds icon and it would be sad to lose such a memorable character, we should destroy the current 5-point system, and change the current 10-point system into a 5-point system WITH the black guy, in combination with a review. For example, when you post a review, the little box for writing your review will pop up, and right above that will be the rating system (which currently displays 10 stars), but instead of 10 stars, it would be the 5 black guys; they keep the speech bubbles and crap, but when you click on them, it doesn't automatically submit the rating/review -- it just lights up or something to denote that you've rated it. Your review/rating doesn't get submitted until you actually press "Submit Review".

At 3/3/09 04:12 PM, runpoochrun wrote:

Ingenuity.

Brilliant, my feline friend. Just brilliant.

At 3/3/09 04:13 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote:

At 3/3/09 04:12 PM, runpoochrun wrote:

Ingenuity.

Brilliant, my feline friend. Just brilliant.

I concur.

At 3/3/09 04:14 PM, babyma wrote:

At 3/3/09 04:13 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote:

At 3/3/09 04:12 PM, runpoochrun wrote:

Ingenuity.

Brilliant, my feline friend. Just brilliant.

I concur.

Thank you.

At 3/3/09 10:56 AM, AndMyRuneaxe wrote: Tom Fulp just needs to give us more love.

He gave me plenty of love last night.

My cock is in shambles right now. It looks like a rotten tomato and my pants are stained red and white.

Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work and ask for a vote/review in return.
I've gotten top 5 and front page multiple times doing that.
Quit bitching about your scores and do some work to get them higher.
Don't just sit there and bitch about the system.

At 5/13/09 12:15 PM, Slipstreamer wrote: Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work and ask for a vote/review in return.
I've gotten top 5 and front page multiple times doing that.
Quit bitching about your scores and do some work to get them higher.
Don't just sit there and bitch about the system.

You sir, have it perfect.

It's so simple and flawless, it just makes me feel stupid and stubborn thinking that the system was to blame.
Thankyou

well Im really not bothered with the zero points stuff, I mean, if 2 or 5 five reviews says that they love my music, Im happy.