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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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sorohanro
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 15:54:41 Reply

scores dropp constantly, lately i'v been 0-bombed 3 times o_O, every two hours
well, i have a big proposal, let's make next week the TOP5 viceversa, put there tracks with the lowest score (now you'll have to excuse me, i'm going to 0-bomb my tracks, just in case)

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 16:49:37 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:29 PM, Bjra wrote: anyone notice how almost 95% of all of the songs in the top weekly and top 30 this week SUCK? like there's no good songs at all.

Speak for yourself man- I see some good names up there, No1R, Zenon, ParagonX9, Envy, nubbinownz, pepptotrippin, oscillist, DaGrahamCracka, trogdar....just remember that your opinion =/= everyones in this case....its worthless because no songs that YOU like made the top 30...

The only good songs are the ones that have like 90 billion votes already, like chaoz fantasy and heavens rd.

The might as rename the top 30 the top 28, because Envy's Heaven Road and ParagonX9's Chaoz Devotion seem to have their permanent standing in there....


This is because all the good new songs have been zero bombed.

All songs get zero-bombed, genius.


This isn't even about my songs being zero bombed. I check the top weekly stuff to find good new songs. There are none. zero bombing ensures random shit thats sucks and stuff we've herd a million times will stay at the top. New stuff will never make it to the top.

I agree on the latter half of that statement. It sucks that new music is unlikely to reach the top 30 anymore- a couple months back you could look forward to seeing some new names on the top 30. Not anymore'

and every new zero bombing thread is closed LOL. complete bullshit

we need anymore of that shit. That's what this thread is for.

When all new songs are zero bombed, this makes it aalot easier for random shit to be passed off as the best of the week. go listen to the stuff on the udio portal this week and see for yourself

nuff' said

yeah, i disagree with you. and obviously, so do a lot of listeners do to.

At 8/14/08 02:24 PM, Chronamut wrote: a few weeks back i was on the top 30 for 2 weeks in a row - worst 2 weeks ever.. now i actively fight to NOT be on them..

this is what i dont understand. I thought the point of getting good scores was to make the top 30/top 5. Otherwise, why should just a number matter. That's the only type of zero voting I'm glad that does exist- because I dont want to hear the same music over and over.

One might suggest not to take it seriously, but in my opinion, that's not an option. There's tons of exposure at stake and it's up to luck and a number, rather than skill, talent, or effort, to decide who gets it.

So I take it the several times that you made the top 5 that was just determined by luck and a number? Generally (but not always) the tracks that reach the top 5 are well produced and deserve there place, backed up by a mass voting fanbase, so I would say all of you guys are being too harsh, the top 30/top 5 artists deserve their spots, the majority of them.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 16:59:00 Reply

I would agree that a lot of stuff that gets up there is by luck. I certainly didn't expect to get the number one spot this week. I don't have a huge fanbase of voters either (maybe being up there will help that a bit I hope)

Regardless I agree on some parts. Sometimes random garbage makes it up there. That's why we all have to use good judgement and be active in the portal to screen stuff as it comes through though.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 20:04:19 Reply

At 8/14/08 04:49 PM, Suspended-3rd-Chord wrote:
One might suggest not to take it seriously, but in my opinion, that's not an option. There's tons of exposure at stake and it's up to luck and a number, rather than skill, talent, or effort, to decide who gets it.
So I take it the several times that you made the top 5 that was just determined by luck and a number?

Sure. A few weeks ago when Time For Morning made it, I wasn't even trying to get up there. Maybe the other times I was, but then there's always that chance that someone's going to come along and give your track a 0 or two. That's luck, isn't it? It didn't happen to Temple, which was way up at 4.70 or so until a few minutes before the Top 5 were chosen - at the moment it happened, it was still at 4.60.

Generally (but not always) the tracks that reach the top 5 are well produced and deserve there place, backed up by a mass voting fanbase, so I would say all of you guys are being too harsh, the top 30/top 5 artists deserve their spots, the majority of them.

I didn't say the majority doesn't deserve their spots (I haven't listened to enough of the Top 5/30 over the past few weeks to accurately talk majority anyway), but many of them don't. What about submissions like this, which made Weekly 5th last week? No offense to the original artist but this isn't anywhere near the quality I would like to hear in the Top 5. I think it's safe to say that every week at least one out of the Weekly Top 5 doesn't deserve its place compared to other submissions that could have made it (at least in my opinion). Often there are others that are just as bad or so-so compared to what could have gone up there... eh, I'm rambling here, but you get the idea. Like I was saying before, this is exposure that could instead be going to better tracks with less attention. That's what I'm complaining about.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 23:17:01 Reply

At 8/14/08 08:04 PM, Karco wrote:
At 8/14/08 04:49 PM, Suspended-3rd-Chord wrote:
Sure. A few weeks ago when Time For Morning made it, I wasn't even trying to get up there. Maybe the other times I was, but then there's always that chance that someone's going to come along and give your track a 0 or two. That's luck, isn't it? It didn't happen to Temple, which was way up at 4.70 or so until a few minutes before the Top 5 were chosen - at the moment it happened, it was still at 4.60.

Of course luck will play a small factor, rarely more or less. You might not think "Time for Morning" is top 5 worthy or one of your best, but I think its top 5 worthy, and so do your fans that support your music. It's not like the Top 5 is randomly generated, and you have to accumulate 20 votes, so there is some legitimacy here even if you escape a zero vote, unlike in the old system where you could five yourself right before midnight on tuesday and make the top 5 (I believe you could do that).


I didn't say the majority doesn't deserve their spots (I haven't listened to enough of the Top 5/30 over the past few weeks to accurately talk majority anyway), but many of them don't. What about submissions like this, which made Weekly 5th last week? No offense to the original artist but this isn't anywhere near the quality I would like to hear in the Top 5. I think it's safe to say that every week at least one out of the Weekly Top 5 doesn't deserve its place compared to other submissions that could have made it (at least in my opinion). Often there are others that are just as bad or so-so compared to what could have gone up there... eh, I'm rambling here, but you get the idea. Like I was saying before, this is exposure that could instead be going to better tracks with less attention. That's what I'm complaining about.

Right. I said "generally" meaning "majority" too. I was quoting Bjra because he thinks this week except for ParagonX9 and Envy sucks....and as as far as those preset tracks, yeah, its not often that they'll make it- but even when they do, they were still voted there and deserve their spot. This is a democratic system, it doesnt matter how crappily produced or generic your track is, if you get the scores you deserve to be there. That's the really only way you can define "better" under this type of voting system. People believe that it's corrupt, which leads to the creation of this thread, and the suggested changes given in the previous 10 pages that will most likely never be implemented.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-20 00:23:23 Reply

At 8/20/08 12:07 AM, Bjra wrote: Now no new stuff is up, I doubt we will ever hear any new stuff on the lists, the problem will only continue to grow. I've seen the bombing steadily grow with no signs of slowing down for the past few months.

Thank you, newgrounds audio portal, but I must leave ya soon.

It IS the top 30 of all time, so you'd think that those top 30 would be pretty consistent.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-20 02:56:47 Reply

At 8/20/08 12:23 AM, Rig wrote:
At 8/20/08 12:07 AM, Bjra wrote: Now no new stuff is up, I doubt we will ever hear any new stuff on the lists, the problem will only continue to grow. I've seen the bombing steadily grow with no signs of slowing down for the past few months.

Thank you, newgrounds audio portal, but I must leave ya soon.
It IS the top 30 of all time, so you'd think that those top 30 would be pretty consistent.

I dont know about you, but I miss the inconsistency and hearing fresh new songs, with the addition of unknown artists getting more recognition. I have already heard ParagonX9's songs a million times, and like Bjra said, the most popular 5'ed songs will eventually be there, with absolutely none new at all. It would be nice if songs could get "retired" once they make the top 30 a certain amount of times.

tekcos
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-03 04:37:01 Reply

lol. Thought this was pretty funny.

http://3ndl3ss.newgrounds.com/news/post/
184970

The guy is totally about to go off the deep end from zerobombers. Maybe he should just zerobomb other people back?

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-07 14:52:38 Reply

is it just me or is zero bombers getting more and more frequent on the audio portal, at least in the classical section ussually theres a consistant amount of 4.40-4.45 and latly theres only 4.32-4.35 and all my stuff once it gets voted to 4.35 it instantly drops down to 4.30 so what do you think?

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-24 12:05:46 Reply

At 9/7/08 02:52 PM, sarias wrote: is it just me or is zero bombers getting more and more frequent on the audio portal, at least in the classical section ussually theres a consistant amount of 4.40-4.45 and latly theres only 4.32-4.35 and all my stuff once it gets voted to 4.35 it instantly drops down to 4.30 so what do you think?

yup - theyre no longer called the "zero voters" - theyre called the "regulators". They basically keep all the charts at a low enuff level so that generally noone from that genre can ever reach the top 30. The only ones I see that are immune to this are dance, techno, and trance. Overall though nothing raises much above a 4.45 these days - the days of 4.9 scores are over my friends!

On a related note -"heavens road" dropped a few spots this week - seems zero voting can even affect those songs deemed invincible..

sarias
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 19:15:27 Reply

lol i mean i cant even get over a 4.29 anymore lol i get to 4.3 then get zerovoted then it goes to 4.27, and nore that im up in the 100's for votes everything stays that low cause it takes 2-3 votes for it to go up .01

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 20:45:00 Reply

why can't malicious zero voting be noted punished, and/or banned?


Audio Surgery
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 21:42:43 Reply

At 9/26/08 08:45 PM, RenoakRhythm wrote: why can't malicious zero voting be noted punished, and/or banned?

because you haven't read through this thread and is closed to being banned for being an ignorant fool >:(


Wakka wakka

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 23:49:54 Reply

because you haven't read through this thread and is closed to being banned for being an ignorant fool >:(

Oh ok, that makes complete sense :P

On all seriousness Rucklo, I don't want to get on your bad side and I apologize for not backing up my statement with other remarks. It just seems there wasn't an adequate response to that previous suggestion.

Here are some quotes with the suggestion and various responses:

HiniberusDelius
An idea to prevent the 0 bombers is to have the name of the person (username) and how much they voted. If you see the same person doing the same thing to others then you should be able to report this to an admin and have them banned from voting. Hell if they aren't doing anything good for the portal(s) why let them vote?
I'd say this is a reasonable idea and one that shouldn't take too much time to make and implement. Mind you I know nothing of programming so I could be completely wrong and it could be hard as fuck. Though I do think that this should be used for the sake of audio and even flash artists.

Sarias

you cant do that because people are immature and would vote the same you voted on, and that would be stupid, its fine that you dont know who it is, either make it so people can only vote once, or make it so you have to listen to the song before you vote cause im pretty sure zero bombers wont sit there for 3-5 minutes in those really long songs, just to vote zero, i mean some might but i bet most wouldn't

LiquidEvolution

Have the mods' watch who zero votes alot?
You can't expect the mods of NG to monitor like 20,000 people and the every vote they make

Jrhager84
. Just add a script or something, that way if someone votes X number of times all 0's... they're put on a "blacklist" which is monitored by mods. If they are found to in fact be zero bombing, they're banned and deleted.
Just my suggestion.

Chronomat
I dont see how that would help - there are a lot of songs out there that legitimately deserve zeros. Have you listened to half the stuff in the voice acting genre? Half of them arent even music - or vocal- theyre just static!

________________________________________
________________________________________
___________

Now I must clarify that I'm not for allowing other users the ability to see who voted what on their songs, but rather for noting MALICIOUS zero voting. And Malicious can be an elastic term to whatever specifications admin would deem. (Ten 0 votes in a row; Five 0 votes in a row with 0 reviews... whatever you feel deems malicious).

The answers received regarding this viewpoint is:

1) We can't expect the mods to monitor this.
2) There are a lot of songs that legitimately deserve 0's.

Yes, i agree with Chronomat, there are songs that deserve to be voted zero. I don't agree however that because there are songs out there that deserve 0's that it legitimizes malicious 0 voting, especially not in mass voting occurances.

Yes, i agree with LiquidEvolution that we can't just EXPECT the mods to monitor this. NG is a great tool and something everyone on here should be grateful for and the fact that we even have this community is amazing; that we can watch, listen and contribute is something we shouldn't take for granted. I don't agree however, that just because we can't just expect it, we can't suggest or request it. It has been used on other sites with ranging success and even other malicious activity by users on this site is noted and action is taken against them (Insert ban reason here). I have noticed that one of the top concerns of users on this site this the MALICIOUS 0 voting of users (Typically mass 0 voting). If there were measures taken to reduce malicious 0 voting there would be considerable less complaining, less people leaving NG, more people recommending the AP portal to musicians AND listeners. If malicious 0 voting is reduced the chances of better material to rise to the top would increase. Having better music on the front page will increase the visitors to the NG AP portal, and obviously to NG in general. Increase the quality in music on the top lists of every genre help Flash artists find better music for their submissions, thus slightly increasing their submission.

I think those that have suggested this idea before were on to something, and I think it should be addressed more in depth. That is all I am requesting.

On a side note. I'm so new and so unknown that zero voting has not even effected me. This isn't a rant or chance for me to justify my music. I honestly think this could be beneficial to the community as a whole.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 01:12:38 Reply

I feel ignored. :(


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I got my wisdom teeth fing pulled

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 03:55:37 Reply

At 9/29/08 01:12 AM, RenoakRhythm wrote: I feel ignored. :(

thats because you havent said anything new :/

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 04:58:49 Reply

Yeah, I'm new so...this whole "zero bombing" thing is foreign to me, but I am also an experienced webmaster, and forcing people to only vote once would not be difficult at all...that seems the most viable solution to the problem in discussion to me. Although, there are downsides...think about it for a moment, how many of the giants here in the audio portal got voted on multiple times to get their status? I mean, of the thousand or so votes on a single song, I bet at least half are multiple votes by a single user...not all of them of course, but one user votes twice, then the next one does, and so on and so forth and before you know it you've got 1500 5/5 ratings on a song. Allowing multiple votes allows for a quick progression through the masses of rankings and pieces for the songs that people really like. Yet, it also allows zero bombers to do their worst.

So...I guess the moral is if you've got a really good song, it'll survive the bomb, but if you don't it wont. Ultimately, as a musician, you have to consider your purpose; is it to please yourself or everyone else? Either purpose is admirable, though, if you want to be on the top, you've got to work to please the masses, and that includes the zero bombers, and if they favor trance/dance/dnb, then thats what you've got to create. Otherwise, quit your bitching and move on with life. It goes on without you, and there are other places to share your music.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 11:54:45 Reply

At 9/29/08 04:58 AM, EoD696 wrote: Yeah, I'm new so...this whole "zero bombing" thing is foreign to me, but I am also an experienced webmaster, and forcing people to only vote once would not be difficult at all...that seems the most viable solution to the problem in discussion to me.

thats actually the voting system we had before the redesign.

So...I guess the moral is if you've got a really good song, it'll survive the bomb, but if you don't it wont. Ultimately, as a musician, you have to consider your purpose; is it to please yourself or everyone else? Either purpose is admirable, though, if you want to be on the top, you've got to work to please the masses, and that includes the zero bombers, and if they favor trance/dance/dnb, then thats what you've got to create.

Not entirely true, yes EDM is the most popular style here, but all styles get their share of recognition, if you work on your style and get good, you dont need to sell out to become popular. There actually is a pretty varied taste group here on newgrounds.

:Otherwise, quit your bitching and move on with life. It goes on without you, and there are other places to share your music.

:)))

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 12:24:33 Reply

Ok big rant coming.

Everyone says the system sucks - everyone said the old system sucked. As soon as people get zero-bombed, they whine. However I have been saying for years that its not the system's fault at all - but the people's mentality that use it. A system can't be flawed - only people and hte people that made it can be flawed. The voting system is not flawed - this is what is flawed.

everyone comes here, they bitch about how someone zero-voted their song - but HEAVEN FORBID they actually go to another user and dedicatedly five their music daily. Theyre hypocrites. They want everyone to five their stuff all the time but do absolutely NOTHING to earn it themselves. The old system was better for the one reason that you could only vote once. Since you could only vote on your own song once it actually FORCED you to rate other people's music, since obviously you could do nothing with your own.

Now all people do is five their stuff every day, and yes it is justifiable, I mean, you made you music, so of course you love it, right?but if every user in the audio portal, and ESPECIALLY in this audio forum, got their headout of their OWN ass every once in a while, found a few artists that they really loved, and every day popped by and gave their songs a five, users wouldn't NEED to five themselves! This site hasn't become corrupted - YOU GUYS have! You want change? You're the fucking lifeblood of this site - make it happen yourself! I'm TIRED of hearing people bitch about the problems of the newgrounds staff when they can't be assed to help out others - it really disgusts me. I five the users I love all the time.

I mean come on - you all whine and bitch that you're not on the charts, or that there is nothnig good on the charts - ok so if you dont like something - give it the score it deserves - that is your viewpoint anyways. But if you do not vote up other users that you think deserve to be there - CONSISTANTLY - one vote one day and then forgetting them does dick all in helping a user these days sadly - then your whining is not worthy of being listened to. The charts, the scores, everything depends on your OWN power and willingness to help others. You show some kindness to others, and they will show kindness towards you. You want a top 30 of artists that deserve to be there? Find like minded people and get them all to vote on users you think deserve it! Same with the regular charts - maybe then this site will actually revert back to how it USED to be, and some of the users who left the site might return. Honestly, everyone gets along in this forum, but its a vipers nest in the audio portal - and in some little way you are all to blame for not being good enough role models and doing your part to help out - mind you some of you DO - and thats great - but most of you just can't be assed.

</end rant>

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 17:42:03 Reply

I agree with what you said Chrawn, (Chron + Shawn = Chrawn, can I call you that?), although, I'd rather review someone's work than just 5 it daily, although, I do make sure to vote five everytime I listen to a song I like, and try to upvote new tracks in hopes that they'll make the top 5. Maybe you are just encouraging this because you have a gizzilion fans, and if each and everyone was to upvote you daily, you'd be on top :P

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 19:02:59 Reply

At 9/29/08 05:42 PM, S3C wrote: I agree with what you said Chrawn, (Chron + Shawn = Chrawn, can I call you that?), although, I'd rather review someone's work than just 5 it daily, although, I do make sure to vote five everytime I listen to a song I like, and try to upvote new tracks in hopes that they'll make the top 5. Maybe you are just encouraging this because you have a gizzilion fans, and if each and everyone was to upvote you daily, you'd be on top :P

I dont have as many fans as you may think - and sure, if it actually worked, id love to have some popularity gauged by the general populace - who wouldn't?

and sure you can call me that - they oth sound the same neways.

Reviewing is great too - ut only if the review is well thought out and helpful - as much as mindless tens seem good - a billion of "OMG I LOVE THIS!" can sometimes get old. It's the well thought out ones that are the ones you cherish the most.

as for the rant- it was a long time coming. Next time anyone has an urge to bitch about zero voters - just tell them to read that.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-10-06 20:44:08 Reply

I don't know if anyone's suggested this yet because frankly I can't be arsed to read all the posts, but I have this idea: if someone votes 0, they should be obligated to write a review or some kind of justification as to why they voted 0. It would make people less inclined to run down the list zero bombing because it would take them ten times longer and "BECUZ I WANT LOLZORRZ" would not be a valid justification.


Check out my music please! :)

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-10-06 21:10:54 Reply

maybe disable the 0 button unless they write a review?

I agree with Chromanut, in this case, people should adapt to the system, not the other way around.

But don't forget, it's much easier on someone's conscience to zero-vote a song if they don't even have an account here...


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-11-02 16:46:52 Reply

I also noticed that many people aren't using the in between numbers, it's just 0 or 5's for people.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-11-02 16:56:08 Reply

Oh and I found this asshole:

http://pedophilicincest.newgrounds.com/r eviews/audio

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-11-03 19:12:54 Reply

um yeah so i noticed that every monday the zero voter strike cause all my stuff that was 4.40 or higher is now down.. even nubbinz new song got hit ... he went from a 4.58 to a 4.35 and its fucking amazing so you know its not cause people didnt like it.. OH well.. keep on truckin

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-11-03 19:14:30 Reply

At 9/26/08 09:42 PM, Rucklo wrote:
At 9/26/08 08:45 PM, RenoakRhythm wrote: why can't malicious zero voting be noted punished, and/or banned?
because you haven't read through this thread and is closed to being banned for being an ignorant fool >:(

hey hey hey no backseat modding.. LOL i always wanted to say that.. HAHAHA
We miss you rucklo

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-11-03 20:05:28 Reply

At 11/3/08 07:14 PM, SymbolCymbal wrote:
At 9/26/08 09:42 PM, Rucklo wrote:
At 9/26/08 08:45 PM, RenoakRhythm wrote: why can't malicious zero voting be noted punished, and/or banned?
because you haven't read through this thread and is closed to being banned for being an ignorant fool >:(
hey hey hey no backseat modding.. LOL i always wanted to say that.. HAHAHA
We miss you rucklo

lol you little shit disturber - thats MY job lolol..

you guys all want up and coming artist s to listen to? Get on the admins asses to FIX THE GODDAMN AUDIO PLAYER IN THE NG MAG! Its been broken for years now, and I dont care how many tiems I have to bring it up - back in the day it was the place ALL of us went to see what was hot and what was not - and we all felt a little special inside if we were on it - there was the new up and coming artists, the famous regulars, and the oldie goldies (not necessarily in that wording) and it was great! I dont rmeember what it was based off - maybe top five, dunno - but still - I remember listening to stuff I normally wouldn't have. It just seems like a waste of such an awesome resource..

XxX-WOLF-XxX
XxX-WOLF-XxX
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-11-04 05:20:40 Reply

I remember when this place was more supportive of people just starting out in making music.
Hell back then my music sucked more balls then it does now but the feedback and responses were so much more... friendly, lawl.

I suffer from zero voting as well and i have learned not to give a damn but it is frustrating at times.

I honestly would embrace horrible votes if they just left a comment explaining why... and not just "this sucks ass!"

Anyways, best we can do until something more effective is done with the voting system is constructively criticize and actually give a song a chance before probing ourselves with a long wooden stick and voting 0.

~WOLF~

DJSynth
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-11-10 16:27:52 Reply

Ok that makes a lot of sense. I posted this topic on how my music was getting 0 votes but then it went to 3.99... so i felt bad because everone would think i was just wining.