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Zerovoting and Exposure.

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tekcos
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 13:37:43 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:32 PM, Bjra wrote:
At 8/9/08 11:32 AM, tekcos wrote: Zerovoting, also known as "Zero-Bombing" is just unfair to everyone, but to someone... it is a strategy. Face it, having your music show up on the first page when various people come to the AP is VERY important to exposure.
not if your music sucks. Shit is still shit, it doesnt matter how many people listen to it. zero bombing encourages laziness and unoriginality in the audio portal

Shit or not, if you look at the weekly top 5, almost all the songs have 30 or more reviews. Almost all the reviews are positive too. I'd say zerobombing worked pretty effective for these artists.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 13:42:35 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:00 PM, Chronamut wrote:
At 8/14/08 12:00 PM, tekcos wrote: olololololol
stoip spamming damnit lol - rucklo is so gonna ban your ass >:(

why the hell would you even post that? don*t think a PM to me would have been smoother and easier?


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 13:45:56 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:37 PM, tekcos wrote: Shit or not, if you look at the weekly top 5, almost all the songs have 30 or more reviews. Almost all the reviews are positive too. I'd say zerobombing worked pretty effective for these artists.

people don't review if they don't like a song. They zero bomb

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 13:52:05 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:42 PM, Rucklo wrote:
At 8/14/08 01:00 PM, Chronamut wrote:
At 8/14/08 12:00 PM, tekcos wrote: olololololol
stoip spamming damnit lol - rucklo is so gonna ban your ass >:(
why the hell would you even post that? don*t think a PM to me would have been smoother and easier?

nah this way is more fun :P

Hades
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 13:54:50 Reply

Haha, my songs just got their scores annihilated: that must mean I'm finally POPULAR!!! XD XD

Seriously, am I the only one amused with the lack of a penis that makes people become zero-bombers?
I think it's just hilarious. XD

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EchozAurora
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 14:05:25 Reply

I've also realized that making top 5 is a great way to get bombed. My song climbed up to 4.6... then gradually went down to 4.0.. now back to 4.15 or so.. it's kinda like some sort of crazy rollercoaster...

I also think I may end up getting more reviews on this than most of my other tracks combined O_o


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Hades
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 14:08:46 Reply

At 8/14/08 02:05 PM, EchozAurora wrote: I also think I may end up getting more reviews on this than most of my other tracks combined O_o

Yeah, I believe that's the way it works. And you still have the entire week ahead of you!


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 14:24:14 Reply

a few weeks back i was on the top 30 for 2 weeks in a row - worst 2 weeks ever.. now i actively fight to NOT be on them..

Karco
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 14:24:44 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:29 PM, Bjra wrote: anyone notice how almost 95% of all of the songs in the top weekly and top 30 this week SUCK? like there's no good songs at all.

I actually have to agree here. It's not the zeroing I have problems with, it's the exposure, and who gets it. So far I've seen four submissions in the Top 5/30 this week (no doubt there are others, this week and in the past) that don't deserve their places at all and it makes you wonder how this kind of exposure could be going to the wrong people. I'm not even talking about the very popular songs you see up there every week either.

One might suggest not to take it seriously, but in my opinion, that's not an option. There's tons of exposure at stake and it's up to luck and a number, rather than skill, talent, or effort, to decide who gets it.

Though it's not like any smaller, more experienced group of people could handpick 39 (Top 30, Top 5, four on the front page) submissions from 40 (right?) genres out of hundreds submitted weekly and the 160,000+ total submissions, and then order them into their places without someone complaining as we all seem to be now.

Unless, instead of all-time best, we have a list of one good song out of every genre updated daily or weekly, and mods selecting tracks for those spots, each mod being assigned a few genres to choose for?

I don't know, just throwing ideas out there.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 15:15:14 Reply

I just spent 2 hours reading every post in this thread. So hopefully I WILL NOT BE REPEATING STATEMENTS, maybe just pointing out which points I agree with.

Firstly: I HAVE ALOT OF SONGS THAT SUCK... they deserve the scores they have. I also have alot of songs that are kinda okay, then once in a while I have a couple decent songs. Everything seems to be rated the same though. Obviously an issue with how things are going in the world of voting.

I have complained before about zero bombers, and I think everyone has, even other zero bombers who aren't as good at zero bombing as other zero bombers.

BUT LET ME SAY: I LOVE NEWGROUNDS AND HOW THE RATING AND VOTING SYSTEM WORKS!

The system is great.... thousands of times better than garageband.com . I started out there and was so frustrated with how long it takes to get reviews and votes.... it really takes a LONG time.Freaking weeks!!! And you are forced to review hundreds of songs to be able to get reviews back.... or you can spend lotsa money. There is little community there and everyone is out for him or her / self. It is the very reason I came here.

THERE IS COMMNUITY HERE.

The problem is not the system (though i agree, small changes here and there would be great).... but do not copy garageband... no community and too long to get reviews.

The problem is not the system... its obviously the people. I think being able to zero bomb is good. I personally don't do it, except on the occasion of a really bad song that is a zero song. I think working on the system of community is great. I have a couple people on there that I let know that I have a new song that I would like the to hear and review... and I have lotsa songs that I dont let people know about cause they aren't that good, but I post them since I want the occasional review and where exactly they sit in the realm of goodness.

I really like the ideas:

Underdog list (For people going under the radar)
Hall of Fame (A place for older songs to go to give room for newer songs)
Review Club

I really think anything that promotes community would be awesome! I personally would like to start or be a part of an audio review crew or something of that nature. I'd be willing to put in the time to review songs... or 5 bomb a song with others that are awesome and have either been 0 bombed, or not given enough exposure.

The system is great. The way people are voting and acting like a community is not working 100% We can get this fixed by trying to help get exposure to stuff that deserves it.

Sanryd
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 15:21:06 Reply

At 8/14/08 02:24 PM, Karco wrote:
At 8/14/08 01:29 PM, Bjra wrote: anyone notice how almost 95% of all of the songs in the top weekly and top 30 this week SUCK? like there's no good songs at all.

I don't know, just throwing ideas out there.

Just saw your post..... I agree.

DarKsidE555
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 15:24:28 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:29 PM, Bjra wrote: anyone notice how almost 95% of all of the songs in the top weekly and top 30 this week SUCK? like there's no good songs at all.

Probably because all the good "newer" songs get downvoted by "a dedicated hater" :)

ALSO, watching scores go down even faster since yesterday is quite the fun.

Doublepwnagezerovotingdayftw! :D


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 15:54:41 Reply

scores dropp constantly, lately i'v been 0-bombed 3 times o_O, every two hours
well, i have a big proposal, let's make next week the TOP5 viceversa, put there tracks with the lowest score (now you'll have to excuse me, i'm going to 0-bomb my tracks, just in case)

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 16:49:37 Reply

At 8/14/08 01:29 PM, Bjra wrote: anyone notice how almost 95% of all of the songs in the top weekly and top 30 this week SUCK? like there's no good songs at all.

Speak for yourself man- I see some good names up there, No1R, Zenon, ParagonX9, Envy, nubbinownz, pepptotrippin, oscillist, DaGrahamCracka, trogdar....just remember that your opinion =/= everyones in this case....its worthless because no songs that YOU like made the top 30...

The only good songs are the ones that have like 90 billion votes already, like chaoz fantasy and heavens rd.

The might as rename the top 30 the top 28, because Envy's Heaven Road and ParagonX9's Chaoz Devotion seem to have their permanent standing in there....


This is because all the good new songs have been zero bombed.

All songs get zero-bombed, genius.


This isn't even about my songs being zero bombed. I check the top weekly stuff to find good new songs. There are none. zero bombing ensures random shit thats sucks and stuff we've herd a million times will stay at the top. New stuff will never make it to the top.

I agree on the latter half of that statement. It sucks that new music is unlikely to reach the top 30 anymore- a couple months back you could look forward to seeing some new names on the top 30. Not anymore'

and every new zero bombing thread is closed LOL. complete bullshit

we need anymore of that shit. That's what this thread is for.

When all new songs are zero bombed, this makes it aalot easier for random shit to be passed off as the best of the week. go listen to the stuff on the udio portal this week and see for yourself

nuff' said

yeah, i disagree with you. and obviously, so do a lot of listeners do to.

At 8/14/08 02:24 PM, Chronamut wrote: a few weeks back i was on the top 30 for 2 weeks in a row - worst 2 weeks ever.. now i actively fight to NOT be on them..

this is what i dont understand. I thought the point of getting good scores was to make the top 30/top 5. Otherwise, why should just a number matter. That's the only type of zero voting I'm glad that does exist- because I dont want to hear the same music over and over.

One might suggest not to take it seriously, but in my opinion, that's not an option. There's tons of exposure at stake and it's up to luck and a number, rather than skill, talent, or effort, to decide who gets it.

So I take it the several times that you made the top 5 that was just determined by luck and a number? Generally (but not always) the tracks that reach the top 5 are well produced and deserve there place, backed up by a mass voting fanbase, so I would say all of you guys are being too harsh, the top 30/top 5 artists deserve their spots, the majority of them.

EchozAurora
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 16:59:00 Reply

I would agree that a lot of stuff that gets up there is by luck. I certainly didn't expect to get the number one spot this week. I don't have a huge fanbase of voters either (maybe being up there will help that a bit I hope)

Regardless I agree on some parts. Sometimes random garbage makes it up there. That's why we all have to use good judgement and be active in the portal to screen stuff as it comes through though.


At 1/16/12 03:08 AM, Xyresic wrote: EchozAurora: The SEXY Audio Mod.
Check out soundcloud.com/echozaurora for more recent songs and DJ mixes!

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 19:07:20 Reply

At 8/14/08 04:49 PM, Suspended-3rd-Chord wrote: yeah, i disagree with you. and obviously, so do a lot of listeners do to.

don't be hatin'

Karco
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 20:04:19 Reply

At 8/14/08 04:49 PM, Suspended-3rd-Chord wrote:
One might suggest not to take it seriously, but in my opinion, that's not an option. There's tons of exposure at stake and it's up to luck and a number, rather than skill, talent, or effort, to decide who gets it.
So I take it the several times that you made the top 5 that was just determined by luck and a number?

Sure. A few weeks ago when Time For Morning made it, I wasn't even trying to get up there. Maybe the other times I was, but then there's always that chance that someone's going to come along and give your track a 0 or two. That's luck, isn't it? It didn't happen to Temple, which was way up at 4.70 or so until a few minutes before the Top 5 were chosen - at the moment it happened, it was still at 4.60.

Generally (but not always) the tracks that reach the top 5 are well produced and deserve there place, backed up by a mass voting fanbase, so I would say all of you guys are being too harsh, the top 30/top 5 artists deserve their spots, the majority of them.

I didn't say the majority doesn't deserve their spots (I haven't listened to enough of the Top 5/30 over the past few weeks to accurately talk majority anyway), but many of them don't. What about submissions like this, which made Weekly 5th last week? No offense to the original artist but this isn't anywhere near the quality I would like to hear in the Top 5. I think it's safe to say that every week at least one out of the Weekly Top 5 doesn't deserve its place compared to other submissions that could have made it (at least in my opinion). Often there are others that are just as bad or so-so compared to what could have gone up there... eh, I'm rambling here, but you get the idea. Like I was saying before, this is exposure that could instead be going to better tracks with less attention. That's what I'm complaining about.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-14 23:17:01 Reply

At 8/14/08 08:04 PM, Karco wrote:
At 8/14/08 04:49 PM, Suspended-3rd-Chord wrote:
Sure. A few weeks ago when Time For Morning made it, I wasn't even trying to get up there. Maybe the other times I was, but then there's always that chance that someone's going to come along and give your track a 0 or two. That's luck, isn't it? It didn't happen to Temple, which was way up at 4.70 or so until a few minutes before the Top 5 were chosen - at the moment it happened, it was still at 4.60.

Of course luck will play a small factor, rarely more or less. You might not think "Time for Morning" is top 5 worthy or one of your best, but I think its top 5 worthy, and so do your fans that support your music. It's not like the Top 5 is randomly generated, and you have to accumulate 20 votes, so there is some legitimacy here even if you escape a zero vote, unlike in the old system where you could five yourself right before midnight on tuesday and make the top 5 (I believe you could do that).


I didn't say the majority doesn't deserve their spots (I haven't listened to enough of the Top 5/30 over the past few weeks to accurately talk majority anyway), but many of them don't. What about submissions like this, which made Weekly 5th last week? No offense to the original artist but this isn't anywhere near the quality I would like to hear in the Top 5. I think it's safe to say that every week at least one out of the Weekly Top 5 doesn't deserve its place compared to other submissions that could have made it (at least in my opinion). Often there are others that are just as bad or so-so compared to what could have gone up there... eh, I'm rambling here, but you get the idea. Like I was saying before, this is exposure that could instead be going to better tracks with less attention. That's what I'm complaining about.

Right. I said "generally" meaning "majority" too. I was quoting Bjra because he thinks this week except for ParagonX9 and Envy sucks....and as as far as those preset tracks, yeah, its not often that they'll make it- but even when they do, they were still voted there and deserve their spot. This is a democratic system, it doesnt matter how crappily produced or generic your track is, if you get the scores you deserve to be there. That's the really only way you can define "better" under this type of voting system. People believe that it's corrupt, which leads to the creation of this thread, and the suggested changes given in the previous 10 pages that will most likely never be implemented.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-20 00:07:25 Reply

hate to dredge up this ol' post. but go look at the audio portal top 30. go look at it. so many people were zero bombing this week, that almost no new songs got top 30. ALMOST NO NEW SONGS!

the only songs up there are the ones that could survive the zero bombing because they had so many votes, THOUSANDS of votes. Thats the only possible way to survive the bombings. constant, unending.

I blame the monkeysphere. People want to get exposure, but they are bombing the same people who would listen to their stuff if they did make the list.

Now no new stuff is up, I doubt we will ever hear any new stuff on the lists, the problem will only continue to grow. I've seen the bombing steadily grow with no signs of slowing down for the past few months.

Thank you, newgrounds audio portal, but I must leave ya soon.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-20 00:23:23 Reply

At 8/20/08 12:07 AM, Bjra wrote: Now no new stuff is up, I doubt we will ever hear any new stuff on the lists, the problem will only continue to grow. I've seen the bombing steadily grow with no signs of slowing down for the past few months.

Thank you, newgrounds audio portal, but I must leave ya soon.

It IS the top 30 of all time, so you'd think that those top 30 would be pretty consistent.


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-08-20 02:56:47 Reply

At 8/20/08 12:23 AM, Rig wrote:
At 8/20/08 12:07 AM, Bjra wrote: Now no new stuff is up, I doubt we will ever hear any new stuff on the lists, the problem will only continue to grow. I've seen the bombing steadily grow with no signs of slowing down for the past few months.

Thank you, newgrounds audio portal, but I must leave ya soon.
It IS the top 30 of all time, so you'd think that those top 30 would be pretty consistent.

I dont know about you, but I miss the inconsistency and hearing fresh new songs, with the addition of unknown artists getting more recognition. I have already heard ParagonX9's songs a million times, and like Bjra said, the most popular 5'ed songs will eventually be there, with absolutely none new at all. It would be nice if songs could get "retired" once they make the top 30 a certain amount of times.

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-03 04:37:01 Reply

lol. Thought this was pretty funny.

http://3ndl3ss.newgrounds.com/news/post/
184970

The guy is totally about to go off the deep end from zerobombers. Maybe he should just zerobomb other people back?

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-07 14:52:38 Reply

is it just me or is zero bombers getting more and more frequent on the audio portal, at least in the classical section ussually theres a consistant amount of 4.40-4.45 and latly theres only 4.32-4.35 and all my stuff once it gets voted to 4.35 it instantly drops down to 4.30 so what do you think?

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-24 12:05:46 Reply

At 9/7/08 02:52 PM, sarias wrote: is it just me or is zero bombers getting more and more frequent on the audio portal, at least in the classical section ussually theres a consistant amount of 4.40-4.45 and latly theres only 4.32-4.35 and all my stuff once it gets voted to 4.35 it instantly drops down to 4.30 so what do you think?

yup - theyre no longer called the "zero voters" - theyre called the "regulators". They basically keep all the charts at a low enuff level so that generally noone from that genre can ever reach the top 30. The only ones I see that are immune to this are dance, techno, and trance. Overall though nothing raises much above a 4.45 these days - the days of 4.9 scores are over my friends!

On a related note -"heavens road" dropped a few spots this week - seems zero voting can even affect those songs deemed invincible..

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 19:15:27 Reply

lol i mean i cant even get over a 4.29 anymore lol i get to 4.3 then get zerovoted then it goes to 4.27, and nore that im up in the 100's for votes everything stays that low cause it takes 2-3 votes for it to go up .01

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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 20:45:00 Reply

why can't malicious zero voting be noted punished, and/or banned?


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 21:42:43 Reply

At 9/26/08 08:45 PM, RenoakRhythm wrote: why can't malicious zero voting be noted punished, and/or banned?

because you haven't read through this thread and is closed to being banned for being an ignorant fool >:(


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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-26 23:49:54 Reply

because you haven't read through this thread and is closed to being banned for being an ignorant fool >:(

Oh ok, that makes complete sense :P

On all seriousness Rucklo, I don't want to get on your bad side and I apologize for not backing up my statement with other remarks. It just seems there wasn't an adequate response to that previous suggestion.

Here are some quotes with the suggestion and various responses:

HiniberusDelius
An idea to prevent the 0 bombers is to have the name of the person (username) and how much they voted. If you see the same person doing the same thing to others then you should be able to report this to an admin and have them banned from voting. Hell if they aren't doing anything good for the portal(s) why let them vote?
I'd say this is a reasonable idea and one that shouldn't take too much time to make and implement. Mind you I know nothing of programming so I could be completely wrong and it could be hard as fuck. Though I do think that this should be used for the sake of audio and even flash artists.

Sarias

you cant do that because people are immature and would vote the same you voted on, and that would be stupid, its fine that you dont know who it is, either make it so people can only vote once, or make it so you have to listen to the song before you vote cause im pretty sure zero bombers wont sit there for 3-5 minutes in those really long songs, just to vote zero, i mean some might but i bet most wouldn't

LiquidEvolution

Have the mods' watch who zero votes alot?
You can't expect the mods of NG to monitor like 20,000 people and the every vote they make

Jrhager84
. Just add a script or something, that way if someone votes X number of times all 0's... they're put on a "blacklist" which is monitored by mods. If they are found to in fact be zero bombing, they're banned and deleted.
Just my suggestion.

Chronomat
I dont see how that would help - there are a lot of songs out there that legitimately deserve zeros. Have you listened to half the stuff in the voice acting genre? Half of them arent even music - or vocal- theyre just static!

________________________________________
________________________________________
___________

Now I must clarify that I'm not for allowing other users the ability to see who voted what on their songs, but rather for noting MALICIOUS zero voting. And Malicious can be an elastic term to whatever specifications admin would deem. (Ten 0 votes in a row; Five 0 votes in a row with 0 reviews... whatever you feel deems malicious).

The answers received regarding this viewpoint is:

1) We can't expect the mods to monitor this.
2) There are a lot of songs that legitimately deserve 0's.

Yes, i agree with Chronomat, there are songs that deserve to be voted zero. I don't agree however that because there are songs out there that deserve 0's that it legitimizes malicious 0 voting, especially not in mass voting occurances.

Yes, i agree with LiquidEvolution that we can't just EXPECT the mods to monitor this. NG is a great tool and something everyone on here should be grateful for and the fact that we even have this community is amazing; that we can watch, listen and contribute is something we shouldn't take for granted. I don't agree however, that just because we can't just expect it, we can't suggest or request it. It has been used on other sites with ranging success and even other malicious activity by users on this site is noted and action is taken against them (Insert ban reason here). I have noticed that one of the top concerns of users on this site this the MALICIOUS 0 voting of users (Typically mass 0 voting). If there were measures taken to reduce malicious 0 voting there would be considerable less complaining, less people leaving NG, more people recommending the AP portal to musicians AND listeners. If malicious 0 voting is reduced the chances of better material to rise to the top would increase. Having better music on the front page will increase the visitors to the NG AP portal, and obviously to NG in general. Increase the quality in music on the top lists of every genre help Flash artists find better music for their submissions, thus slightly increasing their submission.

I think those that have suggested this idea before were on to something, and I think it should be addressed more in depth. That is all I am requesting.

On a side note. I'm so new and so unknown that zero voting has not even effected me. This isn't a rant or chance for me to justify my music. I honestly think this could be beneficial to the community as a whole.


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RenoakRhythm
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 01:12:38 Reply

I feel ignored. :(


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S3C
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Response to Zerovoting and Exposure. 2008-09-29 03:55:37 Reply

At 9/29/08 01:12 AM, RenoakRhythm wrote: I feel ignored. :(

thats because you havent said anything new :/


If your work isn't worth fighting for, it's not worth uploading on NG, period. (JrHager84)