Instruments done by computer

[HellSpawnIV]

DISCLAMER: now i'm not hating on anybody who uses the computer/ keyboard to play instruments. I'm just question on peoples feelings/ ideas on the subject. no offense intended.

Tell me how people can stand it when people make songs that sound so computerized to hell. Am i the only one that feels that playing all instruments on your keyboard cheating, and sounds terrible? better question, am i the only one that can tell? for example, a big no-no is electronic drums. Maybe i'm just old fashioned (i'm 19) but its just not the same. i hear lots of guitar, drums, and other instruments that, to me, sound electronicly done. it really bothers me because i'm worried about wear the world is headed. Everybody is taking the easy way out now days. Not many people challenge themselves to improve their ablities. Anyways, ya thats my question/ comments on the subject. i might have digressed a little by going into the world view about it, but i seem to make a rather valid point.

[CyprusX]

i play guitar and bass , and i also use computer instruments. big deal.

[pr0de]

yes, sequencing is much more easier/faster than recording an instrument in one go

[sorohanro]

old debate here ... that was discussed sooooooooo many times
well, in a way i agree, to make music in the "old fashioned way" is harder from a point of view, you have to learn how to play an instrument, you have to put together a band, make reharsals then make recordings... so you tale minimum 4 microphones just for that drums (that for shitty home recordings, for a good recording you need at last 10 just for the drums), plug those in the mixer (if you have one), then you make the sound while the rest of the band put carpets and blankets on the wall to fix the echo of the room, by the time you'll make the sound for guitar and bass you'll find out that you don't have anymore space left in the mixer for keyboards and voice ... >:( GRRRRrrrrrrr
so, you start recording like this and say "i'll overdub the voice and keys anyway" and you have to stop because your neighbours called police, was way too loud even with the blankets on the wall :(
so ... see my point ?
and that happen if you'll find people who can play instruments and want to play in your band, your music ...
that's another chapter

[jrayteam6]

I see your point, but there are people who understand the computer and how it works musically, and those of us that write bigger stronger things have no choice. Unless you have an orchestra I can borrow.

Sure, a lot of things are going to clearly sound unrealistic, but a lot of that is left up to the composer to determine the various ways of making things sound dynamic and real. 90% of the music you'll hear here with piano is not going to be dynamic, if people would take the time to make their bass notes louder than their middle notes, it would sound much better. Its all in how you use it/how far your willing to go to get a legit sound.

But... your fucked on guitars. (sigh)

[sorohanro]

that's another problem
almost all the people that make piano tunes quantise and over quantise what they record with keyboard (on sequencer) and this sounds very "robotic"
as for orchestra, that's simple, you just have to write the music (without hearing it, no ? you don't want keyboards ...no, no, no) and then find 38~45 people to play it (and a conductor... if you don't find one, take a policeman-they all make sighns with hands)

sequencing is a great way to understand music and a great tool for getting the ideea from your imagination to the "real world", and also there are things that you simply CAN"T DO IN HOME CONDITIONS
of chourse, would be so nice to have "instant band" so you can get your compositions with REAL STUFF, or to have a real orchestra to record for you, but ... get real, for the amount of people writting music would have to be 3648 rock bands, 268 Philarmonyes, 54 concert piano solists and 230 choirs in every town working for free :))) just to have music on NG :)))

[HungarianSupermarket]

recording music the old fashioned way is harder, but sounds a lot better. the reason you hear a lot of synthesised music here on ng is because NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD A FREAKING RECORDING STUDIO. but seriously, i record all my guitar work live, but what can i do if i cant afford some other instruments? i cant be bothered starting a band and frankly i dont want to. so im quite happy using synthesised instruments, as long as they dont sound like dreadful general midi.

[sorohanro]

and the midi drummer never comes drunk to the reharsals :p

[zackjackzeke]

what i do is that i plug in my guitar to my amp, and plug in my amp (headphone port) to my computer(mic port)

[Quarl]

Eh. I'm a drummer, so I sort of understand your views on electric kits. You have to know that the sounds of electric kits have been spawned from years of development in the field of electronic music. You might not like it, but others LOVE it, myself included. Dunno, acquired taste maybe :P

[sorohanro]

i wonder if anybody bother to read what is written before post new stuff on forums

i record also some of my stuff, trumpets, guitars, basses and sometimes also percuttion but mostly my backing tracks are made in sequencers
there is a trick to do if you want to make those more "alive"
you don't quantise everything, i do like that, if i play a piano part if is good, i don't quantise AT ALL, and if needs quantising, i quantise the lower part of the chords, the last 2~3 upper notes i let like they are ;)
try that ... brings more life to the piano
also on keyboards i make glissando's at the end of the phrase
to have a more funk/jazz groove i quantise on 8/3 not 16-th
... etc, etc ...

[JoeyNukes]

The appeal with electronic drums is the ability to switch samples. But generally, yeah acoustic drums sound way better.

As for programming & sequencing, its tedious. But thats not to downplay its difficulty, for its pretty much the same for composition as anything else.

The reason for the keyboard, is because its the most universal instrument. Melodic instruments pretty much hit the same notes, the reason for the variety is different sounds, and another style of playing. But guitars have varieties that have different notes, plus not nearly as many as a keyboard could.

Besides, with your allegations that real instruments is better, does that make the piano, not an instrument? Are keyboards, 'fake'?

Your logic & self-contradicting ignorance confuses/amuses me.

[HellSpawnIV]

At 5/4/08 11:21 AM, JoeyNukes wrote:
The reason for the keyboard, is because its the most universal instrument. Melodic instruments pretty much hit the same notes, the reason for the variety is different sounds, and another style of playing. But guitars have varieties that have different notes, plus not nearly as many as a keyboard could.

Besides, with your allegations that real instruments is better, does that make the piano, not an instrument? Are keyboards, 'fake'?

Your logic & self-contradicting ignorance confuses/amuses me.

i wasn't saying that piano's aren't an intsrument. It's a wonderful instrument, but i suppose you missed my point. When your trying to play instruments on an instrument it shouldn't be played with ultimately is what i'm talking about. like i have a friend that does ALL his instruments on a electronic keyboard and (to me) sounds just to mechinized. so in a way i guess i do see keyboards being 'fake' but i do see the other points that others have made saying you can't have an orchestra in your back yard. Plus i do suppose with the right elements you can make it sound more live. thx for all the input, appreciate it.

[NickPerrin]

At 5/4/08 04:38 AM, HellSpawnIV wrote: i hear lots of guitar, drums, and other instruments that, to me, sound electronicly done. it really bothers me because i'm worried about wear the world is headed. Everybody is taking the easy way out now days. Not many people challenge themselves to improve their ablities.

Newgrounds Audio Portal is not the real music world, and here, it's okay to sound crappy. Professionally, depending on what sound you're going for, sampled instruments are sampled to sound as realistic as possible, and synthetic instruments are meant to sound synthetic anyway.

Anyway, all the posts by Sorohanro in this thread pretty much say it better than anything else here, so read them!

[NickPerrin]

I also have to say... sampled acoustic drumkits are probably the most realistic of any sampled instrument you can get these days, because they rely on hits rather than long drawn-out notes and articulations like more musical instruments.

Have you ever heard samples from EZDrummer, XLN Addictive Drums, or other similar kits? If not, your argument about electronic-sounding drums is just plain uninformed. If the song is purposefully using an electronic kit, then that's different. But for realistic drum sounds, we are spoiled for choice in terms of excellent-sounding software.

[xXDathDalerXx]

i don't care what it's made with as long as it sounds good

[elsocho]

I think that computer instruments are a load of crap. Considering that anyone can make insanly hard to play in real life music. All in all, its the amature's shortcut.

[sorohanro]

At 5/4/08 05:49 PM, elsocho wrote: I think that computer instruments are a load of crap. Considering that anyone can make insanly hard to play in real life music. All in all, its the amature's shortcut.

well, here's a list of "amatures" who use this "load of crap"
Hans Zimmer (the most known is the soundtrack from "Pirates of Carribean III" and "Gladiator")he use real instruments combined with electronix
Michael Kamen (just listen to the soundtrack from "X Men")
Mark Isham, a great composer, jazz trumpet player, he lately write for orchestra but he have some nice electro music also ;)
and many more
from Jazz, wich is a style of free playing and improvisation by default you have Chick Corea Elektric Band, one group that made history, Herbie Hancock, one of the most influential piano players of all time ... fuck, also Miles Davis used that "load of crap" on "Tutu", "Aura", "Siesta" and "Doo-Bop"
what to say about Nine Inch Nails , Korn, Static-X ... all of those use that electronic "crap" , J.Davis from Korn use a Open Labs MIKO
so ... should i give more examples of "amatures" ?
The Prodigy, Air, the composer of the music in the game wich changed my life (Undying) Bill Brown, my favourite rock guitarist Steve Vai and my favourite jazz guitarist and gomposer Pat Metheny ... and many more "loosers" ...
good thing we have here on NG real pro's, 13~18 guys who just bought a guitar and talk shit on forums, just to prove that they are "true" ... not like those "electronic crap" fans ...
THANX FOR OPENING OUR EYES !

[VegetarianMeat]

A lot of Nine Inch Nails songs use drum machines, not when they play live obviously, but they still sound great. Also, I can play drums, but I use a drum machine, only because I don't have the money to afford all the microphones and equipment I need to make it sound really good. That being said, I have used my brother's midi keyboard to record some songs, and it's a lot more fun than just clicking your mouse where you want the notes to go, and for the most part sounds better because it's more natural. And maybe it's just me, but it's much easier to point out a guitar or bass that has been created with a sequencer, as opposed to actually recording it, than a drum machine.

[S3C]

I dont know about you guys, but FL Slayer sounds like a real guitar to me!

[sorohanro]

nobody (almost) read previous posts ... what kind of dialogue is that ?

[TwilightNecrosis]

At 5/4/08 04:38 AM, HellSpawnIV wrote: a big no-no is electronic drums.

Synth guitars = fail.
Synth drums = necessary.

Seriously, Sorohanro hit the nail on the head when it comes to recording drums.
Recording live drums is usually not worth the effort, especially when you can get good drum machine programs, and download samples of real drum hits.
I'd much rather spend 2 hours programming a drum track than 3 days setting up, tuning, miking and finally playing the track on the real drums, assuming I can find a sound-deadened room, and a kit, and
a large number of other things that are necessary.
Do you understand where we're coming from, here?

[HellSpawnIV]

At 5/4/08 07:52 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote:

Recording live drums is usually not worth the effort, especially when you can get good drum machine programs, and download samples of real drum hits.
I'd much rather spend 2 hours programming a drum track than 3 days setting up, tuning, miking and finally playing the track on the real drums, assuming I can find a sound-deadened room, and a kit, and
a large number of other things that are necessary.
Do you understand where we're coming from, here?

totally understand, but i disagree when you say its not worth the effort (especially when you exagerated the time, usually takes a couple of hours to set up for me). To me electronic drums are without. When your playing on a real drum kit it's more fuller and has more depth... it's 3 dimentional (no i'm not drawing it) other than were the electronic drum sounds plain, and muffled. It's hard to explain, but it just might be my style too.

[Nav]

At 5/4/08 08:52 PM, HellSpawnIV wrote: totally understand, but i disagree when you say its not worth the effort

Explain please.

To me electronic drums are without. When your playing on a real drum kit it's more fuller and has more depth...

How? Certainly not thickness. That's determined through mics. If you're having a debate about real vs. sampled drums, then you obviously can't afford the really good mics in the number needed to record with more fullness.

it's 3 dimentional (no i'm not drawing it) other than were the electronic drum sounds plain, and muffled. It's hard to explain, but it just might be my style too.

You mean room ambiance? Reverb? Yeah, they have like a bajillion different plugins for that. However, most styles of ELECTRONIC music don't use it as much as rock and the like.

Hey, guess what? I've been to a few professional recording studios. One that I went to replaces all the drums using Drumagog, because he simply doesn't have 5 mics to use on a drum set. The other, the more professional one, sometimes mics the drums, but if the drummer sucks, he'll use samples. Much of the music I hear on the radio has sampled drums. You can tell because all of the snare hits are the same velocity (that, or it just has a damn good drummer).

[WritersBlock]

I'm a composer. I'd much prefer to write music than to play music. I've started using the proper notation again, and my computer generated samples can sound pretty real at times. I'm not being judged as a performer, I'm being judged as a composer. It's about getting the best sound out of what you've got, regardless of the method taken. I do play the piano and classical guitar, and I don't get what the big deal is. Some musicians are performers, some musicians are composers. I think that a lot of people forget that composing is also a major part of being a musician.

[sorohanro]

are you familiar with big names in drumming ?
is Dave Weckl a known name to you ? should be ... he is one of the most influential drummers, played with Chick Corea, George Benson, Michel Camilo and Anthony Jackson
HERE, have a link
on "Master Plan" he use both programmed and real drums
familiar with Jojo Mayer ???
he was basicly inspired by D'n'B, wich is an electronic style by default, combined that with jazz and got his own original style, he also use both real and electronics
Groove Collective, a legend in Acid-Jazz, also using both real and electronics ...
and i'm not going into electronic music or unknown people

[kaptainkewl]

I have a small Issue with sequencers, A little bit like what the post seems to head towards. I just kind of find it a way to cheat. When I make my music (I do a live keyboard) I have to set the tempo myself, rather than have a copmuter that knows exactly when the note will stop. So it can be harder, as well, when I screw up a note two minutes into a song, I need to start all over again. and I have to do a whole song, I can't just Copy and paste my drums or melody 5 times adn make different things. As for electronics. I would absolutely love to have my own orchestra and have my at the front conductin them, But I can't. Not right now at least :P. I'm actually even thinking of getting a sequences just for the more realistic sounds. I mean, As Much I love to do live and have that respect for myself, I won't give it up for lower quality. People care about the music made, not how it is made, which could also be why Rap and girls stripping on tv lets them get away with only having to sing. Or in a rappers case, talk. I'll probably end up just changing my keyboard into a midi controller, and still doing "live" music, But allow for the accuracy and realism of a computer to make a better quality song. But there is NO way to emulate a good acoustic sound from a real instrument. Espescially something LIke a guitar or grand piano. They melt my heart. The only other thing that gets to me, is how I canw atch a 12 year old kid, get fruity loops, use the scale finder or whatever, and Make a song that's as good as mine without even trying. When I've spent 8 years of my life slowly teaching myself piano, and then learning how to make music. It feels as though those 8 years could have been spent making music right away, and being that much better now. My hate for sequencers has gone down quite a bit since I've been active in NG, I realized more and more that these people actually know how to play music, and at least some theory behind it, and jsut use the cimputers as an easier means to making it. I always thought that they all used loops and just downloaded and transferred midis/chanegd the isntruments and made a cover of a song. SO NG audio +1 respect.

I still have quite a large amount of respect towards the live music artists out there, gratz if it's how you do it expecially if you are mixing tracks.

[Suspended-3rd-Chord]

I used to think sequencers were hard to use, you still need to figure out how to read music on the piano roll to compose properly. before I thought it was much easier to just play guitar/piano or whatever and not have to analytically think about what was going on. I also recommend using a sequencer or notation sometimes because your fingers have conditioned patterns, which you may want to avoid if you feel all your songs are sounding to alike.

and bro, you must make some pretty crappy music (I just checked out your stuff, you dont) if someone can make an equally good song as yours just with the scale finder :P

[Occluded]

What if that's what you're going for?
I made this 7 or 8 years ago on a 'Tracker'. Don't judge to harshly. It's merely exemplifying a point.

Isn't a lot of this about intent? Sometimes an artist may choose to be cold, digital, unnatural. Because it more acutely captures what they are trying to convey. I play guitar (badly), and Piano (even worse) but still. They are severely limited in the range of sound they can make. Even John Cage prepared piano, and Adrian Belew and shit. Computers are infinite.

Also (you 'tube amps are better than solid state' people beware!) they will get better at imitating real instruments. There will be a time when the fake instruments can imitate even the flaws of the real instrument with more control and depth than a real one.

I'm not saying they will replace the real ones. I'm just saying don't shut your eyes to possibility.

[darkmelee]

i use Sonar Cakewalk Music Creator 3.

i have absolutely no access to recording capabilities whatsoever. i don't let that stop me.

it's true that there're more and more "real" fake musicians and music, but it is, truly, easier. Michiru Yamane's been using a whole slew of utterly fake instruments (and some you'd never guess were fake) for eions, but it didn't kill good old fashion orhcestras (Super Mario Galaxy, anybody?). she simply didn't have to pay anyone else to record out what she could simply click to export and mix.

computerized? to an extent. i like a healthy dose of utterly fake, and genuinely real(istic) instrumentation.