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I hate oop classes!

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xWELSHxDRAGONx
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I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 19:08:06 Reply

For about the last 5 months I have gone back to coding in classes again, and im slowly starting to remember why i went off them in the first place! I need to voice my opinion before i explode, and id like to hear your views too. Please - if you disagree, let me know. I want to be wrong.

Okay.....

First of all... theres the creating them. I dont work with other people. Im fine just accesssing 1 file. It really gets tedious navigating between like 5 .as scripts, and saving them before i can even test what ive done. I dont like doing it. Im testing the file for a reason! When its working the way i want then ill save. This dosnt bother me in other lanuages, but it seems a bit ott in flash...

Then theres the stupid ammount of complexity classes add. I need to make classes jus to do coding in a .fla file does anyway. This includes the what is usually annoying task of passing varaibles between classes and making them communicate.

And ofc, how could i forget, the argument that classes make your code easier to read. Brilliant.... except only i need to read them.... Also i cant say i agree with this argument. You gotta be moving between severall differnt .as files jus to work out what is going on, comapred to what could often be similarly achieved with 2 or 3 functions all listed underneath each other.

But the main thing that gets to me is, in exchange for these neat little .as files, which look so pretty and are so easy to read, we sacrafice so much speed and simplicity.

To me, classes are nuthing more than over complicated functions, on a powercraze. They think they are so high and mighty, but at the end of the day there aint nuthing you can code in a class file that you couldnt code with jus a function on the timeline. And furthermore I could create the time line function alot more simplier, quicker, and it would be alot more effeicent.

The one thing that is appealing about classes is thier ease of re-use..... however at the same time, this adds more to the complication of coding, and aiming to make a class reusuable suually impacts on efficency. I still copy and apste my functions from old projects when using classes, because i know i need to modify them to suite this projects needs.

For your average flash coder, workin on his own, i fail to see what the benefits of classes are.

El-Presidente
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 19:19:26 Reply

I don't think any of your arguments make sense:
1. Speed / Lag reduction
2. You don't have to rewrite the whole code in some other action spot. What if you have bullets being duplicated and they need actions. Why not just write them in a class file and it will automatically work. Otherwise you could duplicate but that lags more too.
3. They're easier to read
4. They're easier to code.
5. It makes opening your .fla much easier and moving between actions is actually easier because it just has the tab at top and you can go between them with simplicity.
6. You don't have to open up the .fla every time to screw around with code
7. So much more to say...


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xWELSHxDRAGONx
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 19:28:19 Reply

At 4/21/08 07:19 PM, El-Presidente wrote: I don't think any of your arguments make sense:
1. Speed / Lag reduction

How... the code inside executes exactly the same speed - however, constructing a class takes unnesscary time. Try movin a load of movie clips in a loop, then try doing the same with class where each onject is a class. The speed isnt even close.

2. You don't have to rewrite the whole code in some other action spot. What if you have bullets being duplicated and they need actions. Why not just write them in a class file and it will automatically work. Otherwise you could duplicate but that lags more too.

Ive always been taught, and expereinced, if you creating a class that does verry little, and plan on removing it a few seconds later, its very inefficent.

3. They're easier to read

Agreed, when you actually navigate thorugh lots of files to find out what said claeed function acutally does.

4. They're easier to code.

I disagree. Flash isnt difficult, and what determines the difficulty for me is how fast i can code it.
Using classes requires far more lines of code, so its obviosue it will take longer.

5. It makes opening your .fla much easier and moving between actions is actually easier because it just has the tab at top and you can go between them with simplicity.

I used frames for my code. Each majour function to its own frame, much liek a class - except i could modify my art and whatever else i felt like without having to resize windows.

6. You don't have to open up the .fla every time to screw around with code

Why would i screw around with code and not open the .fla to see what im doin?

7. So much more to say...

me too.......

El-Presidente
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 19:32:49 Reply

Ask Gust the AS Guy about it and get ready to get your ass whooped...


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xWELSHxDRAGONx
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 19:37:59 Reply

I dont see where ive gone wrong though? My point isnt to tell people classes are shit, but to mearly work out, why in small projects, people are choosing to use them - me included. Im following a trend that i dont see being benefical.

My main concern in flash is speed - and classes dont offer me this. I kinda jus see classes, and oop in general, as a way for profestionals to teach coding more easier - at a cost to performance...... Though, such has been the way since the dawn of computers.

El-Presidente
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 20:18:05 Reply

Okay, I'll agree with you on the SMALLER GAMES aspect of this argument. It's useless to use them on a small game that won't take much time. But I mean, for the game I'm doing in Pico Day, it would actually make me want to kill myself if I wasn't using classes. I mean that in all seriousness...it would be a nightmare. But let people decide themselves.


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JPI
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 20:34:36 Reply

Just as my personal response.

As a rule when I'm working with multiple things with variables I make it into it's own class.
For example, enemy, item bonus etc.

Also, I use classes when playing around or using a 3d or 2d physics engine. Although I use flash develop that way it can tell me exactly how to use another person's function in a class.


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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 20:39:13 Reply

At 4/21/08 07:08 PM, xWELSHxDRAGONx wrote: stuff

I feel like an idiot for not realizing until the third paragraph that you weren't talking about Actionscript classes...in school


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Moonkey
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-21 23:36:35 Reply

At 4/21/08 07:28 PM, xWELSHxDRAGONx wrote:
At 4/21/08 07:19 PM, El-Presidente wrote: I don't think any of your arguments make sense:
1. Speed / Lag reduction
How... the code inside executes exactly the same speed - however, constructing a class takes unnesscary time. Try movin a load of movie clips in a loop, then try doing the same with class where each onject is a class. The speed isnt even close.

That doesn't make sense. If all you're doing is changing x and y properties it won't be any different. If your class extends MovieClip, it will use the exact same functions to change x and y unless you specifically override them.

2. You don't have to rewrite the whole code in some other action spot. What if you have bullets being duplicated and they need actions. Why not just write them in a class file and it will automatically work. Otherwise you could duplicate but that lags more too.
Ive always been taught, and expereinced, if you creating a class that does verry little, and plan on removing it a few seconds later, its very inefficent.

Creating a MovieClip is still creating an instance of a class. I don't see that there'd be much, if any difference between creating a MovieClip or an extension of MovieClip. Maybe there's more overhead involved if using as2 though.

3. They're easier to read
Agreed, when you actually navigate thorugh lots of files to find out what said claeed function acutally does.

You only have to navigate to 1 file (a click of a tab) :/ And once you get there, there is significantly less code to trawl through.

But even if you prefer that style of organization, a huge advantage of classes is the ability to strictly type everything. If you're storing all the attributes of characters, enemies etc as dynamic properties of MovieClips, you'll see a massive speed increase by switching to classes where they are all properly defined and typed.

Fickludd
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 03:41:20 Reply

At 4/21/08 07:28 PM, xWELSHxDRAGONx wrote:
At 4/21/08 07:19 PM, El-Presidente wrote: I don't think any of your arguments make sense:
1. Speed / Lag reduction
How... the code inside executes exactly the same speed - however, constructing a class takes unnesscary time. Try movin a load of movie clips in a loop, then try doing the same with class where each onject is a class. The speed isnt even close.

Indeed all calls to new take a lot of time, because space has to be allocated from the heap in memory. That's why you shouldn't create a lot of objects that you only use a short time, but as long as you're aware of this it's no problem.

A large advantage from OOP is that you DON'T have to go through a lot of code. Most classes you write once and then you don't have to look at that code again. Say you have a bunch of complicated functions that you need to calculate stuff every now and then. You could have them as functions in your .fla, but then you could have hundreds of lines of code that you don't need to see that you have to scroll over to get to the code you want to edit.
Instead with OOP you could have a object Calculator with all the functions you need, reducing that to one line of code.

This was admittably not the best example, but the idea should come across. With OOP it becomes very easy to split a large diffucult programming task into a bunch of small easy ones.

Bah, this wasn't the world's most readable argument... oh well.

//Fickludd

Vengeance
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 03:57:20 Reply

If you use classes PROPERLY you start to understand how much more organised it is. If you have your basic character functions all stored in a character.as class, you can then extend that to an enemy.as class, inherit the simple move functions and place AI in it. You can then set dynamic properties of your enemy to customise it to each one.
Now, you can't say that thats less organised. If you want to change the base speed of the characters, you know that its in the character.as class, if you want to make the enemy run left instead of right, its in the enemy.as class, if you want to change the overall speed of one type of enemy, you change it in the .fla.
It all starts to work as a heirarchy, and becomes so much more organised.


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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 04:41:55 Reply

Well, I think he's got a good point. I was never really that impressed with classes. I remember one time I took a computational physics class that used java, and it took forever to figure out what each command exactly did because it was so oop. It was like a scavenger hunt trying to find the source for each method mentioned in the code, but in order to really understand what was going on, there was really no other way than to look at the code.

I think that if you are going to program in an object-oriented manner, you need really extensive documentation saying exactly what each method does, and clearly what each variable is used for so that you don't feel like you need to see the code. That's the only reason I've had success in learning the built-in objects in actionscript. This can mean a crapload of initial work for a casual programmer if he was creating his own objects, and the reusability doesn't seem like a huge advantage over copy-and-paste in my experience. It's just another way to organize your information. I think one reason it gets so much praise is that it certainly has advantages in professional settings, where many tasks share common traits, and code is routinely recycled and borrowed.

Someone mentioned that he was creating a large rpg game, and it would drive him crazy if he didn't use his own classes, but I think if you're organized, creating your own classes for everything wouldn't be too much of an advantage. It's all really a matter of how you prefer to organize things.

dragonjet
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 06:53:36 Reply

when I saw your post I really got mad on you and want burst out everything in curses
but i stayed calm and read the next replies, I realized that I got you wrong

you are not angry of OOP, you angry of .as files, is that correct?

On that side, I can't agree with you but I also don't use .as files
but I can see advantages of using them in a flash project

-- but hell don't you ever make fun of OOP! If you do, dont use flash!

just some questions:
1. when did you start using Flash, and your story in quitting and going back
2. Are you programming in other languages?
3. If yes, what are those and since when did you start to use them?

dragonjet
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 07:06:38 Reply

Disadvandtages of .as files
-its hard to compile - saving many files, etc
-hard to decipher - going thru different files finding whats goingon

Advandtages of .as Files
-you can make your own classes - leads to....

heres what you needed?
Advantages of having your own classes
-you dont have to repeat coding each class everytime you use them (just create object)
-leads to great extension of flash capabilities
-can customize your own of codes (shorter/faster/easier)
-many more.....

Pixelwelder
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 09:38:25 Reply

The bigger your project gets, the more you need classes. I'm working on a game that's probably up to about five thousand lines of code, and I'm working on a Flex app that could be twice that. There's no way I could find anything if I just had a list of functions and a list of properties.

Classes give you a way to combine properties, events, and functions into one package. The only other way to do that is by creating an object and assigning properties and functions to it... but then you've just created a non-reusable baby class.


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GustTheASGuy
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 10:00:36 Reply

Nah you just suck at using classes dude. Try using a program like Flashdevelop instead of Flash.

Though I'm not a big fan of using classes as singletons and the package approach but whatever.


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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 10:56:38 Reply

At 4/21/08 07:19 PM, El-Presidente wrote: I don't think any of your arguments make sense:
1. Speed / Lag reduction

wrong

2. You don't have to rewrite the whole code in some other action spot. What if you have bullets being duplicated and they need actions. Why not just write them in a class file and it will automatically work. Otherwise you could duplicate but that lags more too.

wrong

3. They're easier to read

only if you know what you're doing

4. They're easier to code.

only if you know what you're doing

5. It makes opening your .fla much easier and moving between actions is actually easier because it just has the tab at top and you can go between them with simplicity.

fair point

6. You don't have to open up the .fla every time to screw around with code

what about exporting it?

7. So much more to say...

Damn right ;)

I think if you don't like OOP then you're missing the point. Read Essential Actionscript 2.0 and I guarentee you'll change


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GustTheASGuy
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 11:07:47 Reply

At 4/22/08 10:56 AM, Rustygames wrote:
At 4/21/08 07:19 PM, El-Presidente wrote: 2. You don't have to rewrite the whole code in some other action spot. What if you have bullets being duplicated and they need actions. Why not just write them in a class file and it will automatically work. Otherwise you could duplicate but that lags more too.

It does make a difference for stupid users that define methods in such a way that they get duplicated when the movieclip is. Having their ass wiped with Object.prototype is thus better in AS2.

4. They're easier to code.
only if you know what you're doing

And when you have a program that does formatting and suggestions properly. Not Flash.

5. It makes opening your .fla much easier and moving between actions is actually easier because it just has the tab at top and you can go between them with simplicity.
fair point

Flash sucks.

I think if you don't like OOP then you're missing the point. Read Essential Actionscript 2.0 and I guarentee you'll change

Flashdevelop.


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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 11:09:42 Reply

In reply to flashdevelop:

I'm also using this. It's great for larger projects. One thing I do miss is autoformat, it's highly frustrating they missed out the only good thing about the flash IDE.


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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 11:19:43 Reply

I disagree about the autoformat. I remember liking it when I was thirteen and too lazy to use the space key properly but a short period with Notepad fixed that. Flash has no idea how to do good spacing. At least in CS3 it doesn't collapse blank lines but ugh. Just get used to using space more.


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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 14:46:08 Reply

What? FlashDevelop autoformats for me just fine...

Anyway, to the OP: A lot of your issues can be solved, actually, with a reasonable IDE such as FlashDevelop or (probably, haven't tried) Flex Builder. Creating a new class skeleton takes two mouse clicks and a filename for me. Not difficult or slow at all. When I go to compile, everything which isn't saved, auto saves.

Communicating between classes IS sometimes a little bit annoying, but it pays off in the end if you design everything properly. Designing everything properly also should fix your "have to swtich between 5 files to figure out what's going on" issue. Each class should have a clear responsibility and be coded to fit its abstract purpose, so there should never be any question as to "what's going on" inside another class. In this same arena is your "I don't need my code to be clearly stated--I wrote it, I know how it works". This is a little bit arrogant. You WILL forget how your stuff works exactly, and OOP abstracts away from implementation details, so you don't need to figure it out again--it works, you know it works, just use it. The same can't be said of procedural code, generally. I've found that any of the argumetns people make "for other people" generally apply to myself a few weeks later (ex OOP makes your code easier to use "for other people"/"myself a few weeks after I wrote it and forgot what it did").

Like you said, you have to sit down write your class in terms of reusability in order to make a class reusable. You have to make some executive decisions when doing this. At some point, you'll HAVE to make some classes which cater specifically to your project. In these cases, you mentally forfeit the reusability concerns and go to town. But if you were making, let's say, a tile-based game's tiling engine--most of that stuff would be best done in a reusable fashion. Once you'd nailed that, you could go out and immediately make a few tile-based games without ever having to touch your original code. The point is, classes are as reusable as you make them. If you don't ever want to "waste" the time of having to decide how to make a class reusable, then don't--just code it, and copy/paste/recode it when you want to use it again.

Additionally, don't limit yourself to believing that reusability only exists between projects and not within a single project...

Anyway, in the end, yes--anything that can be writting OOP can be written procedurally. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if you haven't sorted out your OOP issues in 5 months, it may be a lost cause. You need to make sure you're dedicating time to understanding the principles behind the paradigm--just using what you don't really understand isn't going to make you any better at it, it'll just make you confused and unproductive (as seen here).


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xWELSHxDRAGONx
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-22 16:58:43 Reply

I have been doin some private reserach on this situation, as many people are offering me arguments i find easy to disregard.

What ive realised is the coding world is very much split, in particular between oop and progressive lanuages. There seems like alot of l33tism. Both sides think thier right.

However, i mean to be unbiased - and i belvie i have been - but it comes back to what ive thoguht all along - oop is not effeicent.

Now given that flash is an oop lanuage - the only conclusion i can make is - if your desire is speed, use as little of the oop functionality as possible, this includes using no classes.

Many of you are raising arguments that classes are easier to manage and such, and im just some1 who dosnt agree with this, although i accept it is some peoples prefernce. And despite this, speed is my ultimate goal as i have never had a porblem managing my code even when i go into thousands of lines. there is nuthing classes can do that basic functions cant - and flash is still a dynamic lanuage - the strict typeing is fake and is simply used to help debbugin.

As far as classes go, ill continue to use them, because as som1 stated, its the current trend, and to be anybody you must be able to do it. I know im coding in oop to a high standered (good knows ive had enoguh practice), and its this knowledge that has made me question thier effciency. Some reaserch on the internet has proven what i have thought.

Heres a little link that comprises what i would say is fact - but many oop fans would simply considered speculation or lies:

http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad .htm

Moonkey
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-23 00:30:54 Reply

At 4/22/08 04:58 PM, xWELSHxDRAGONx wrote: Now given that flash is an oop lanuage - the only conclusion i can make is - if your desire is speed, use as little of the oop functionality as possible, this includes using no classes.

So let's say you want to store 20 enemies, each with several properties (hp, etc).
If you don't make a class for them, you have to either store each of those properties as untyped, dynamic properties of a MovieClip or Object, or in parallel arrays.
Obviously both of those options are horribly slow compared to strictly typed, properly defined properties of a class.

So why do you think using classes is slow?

If you are concerned about the time it takes to create a new instance of a class, what do you think is happening when you create a MovieClip?

Speed is one of the best reasons FOR using classes in flash imo.

dragonjet
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-23 05:19:17 Reply

dammit now im pissed! then dont use flash if you dont like OOP!
i told you not to make fun of OOP

KaynSlamdyke
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-23 05:31:47 Reply

As much as I don't like OOP I see it for what it is. Another tool in my shed.
Part of the reason for not moving to AS3 for me is the ability to combine procedural and object orientated code in AS2 gives me more flexibility and a better construction process.

I don't build foundations. I build skeletons. I build an ameoba that works and then evolve it and refine it until it works properly. It starts off doing something on its own, and then refines all its code into functions. Then it starts using code I've defined in other code blocks and then ends its life as a class - if it needs to. Turns out, a lot of the stuff I code doesn't need a class - I don't need a UIBtn extending a UIClass - I just build a User Interface and drag buttons into place. The last class I made at work's sole purpose in life was to make loading my XML files and collating them into arrays of Objects easier on me.

OOP isn't mandatory. Flash itself is an inefficient wasteland, so everyone arguing about efficiency is simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. And nor is it completely problem free. Welsh is providing some decent arguments here, and Paranoia's hit a huge road block with it in another thread here (which I too am waiting for an answer for).

If you're approaching code as a sterile, efficient science, fine. Shoot for efficiency. Start using OOP. Pretty soon you'll all leave Flash behind and go off to do some real coding. If you want to use code as a supplement to your art, use OOP anyway, but always remember you can go back to hacking your way around problems and no one will care at all. Not even you when you go back to wade through spaghetti code.


...

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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-23 05:42:42 Reply

At 4/23/08 05:31 AM, KaynSlamdyke wrote: ...and Paranoia's hit a huge road block with it in another thread here (which I too am waiting for an answer for).

To be fair, the problem was much the same in AS3. And I think I've managed to trick Flash into working - I'm uploading a test to the net to make sure it isn't just a fluke in the simulation.


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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-23 05:46:57 Reply

alright, in return to KaynSlamdyke's statement of his style of programming,
i'll state mine so we can see everyone's involvement to OOP
and eventually we'll see what are the advantages and disadvantages of it

my style of programming is, program as you do / program as you play
what i mean by this is, if you want to program something
do it manually, then program what you did, anyone get me?

i mean, i don't think of solutions to the problem
i dont - "i can use this to do this"
i solve the problem first then that is my solution

i may not be making any sense so some,
but for those who can understand, thanks

Moonkey
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-23 06:18:48 Reply

At 4/23/08 05:31 AM, KaynSlamdyke wrote: OOP isn't mandatory. Flash itself is an inefficient wasteland, so everyone arguing about efficiency is simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Speed is a major limitation of flash, but isn't that all the more reason to keep efficiency in mind? Dismissing it as a lost cause will limit what you can develop even further.

KaynSlamdyke
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Response to I hate oop classes! 2008-04-23 06:50:44 Reply

At 4/23/08 05:46 AM, dragonjet wrote: i may not be making any sense so some,

You really aren't.

i mean, i don't think of solutions to the problem
i dont - "i can use this to do this"
i solve the problem first then that is my solution

Which sounds like a ridiculous approach especially for using Object Oriented Programming. You can't code on the fly using OOP - you need a structure otherwise it just becomes an inefficient bludgeon.

At 4/23/08 06:18 AM, Moonkey wrote: Speed is a major limitation of flash, but isn't that all the more reason to keep efficiency in mind? Dismissing it as a lost cause will limit what you can develop even further.

While I'm not disputing speed of execution is a factor in some cases (and in those I force myself to code cleanly and efficiently), it's not in all cases. It's not when I'm doing a brute force search through an array. It's not when I'm preloading a movie. It's not when I'm doing something the user's not going to notice an extra millisecond of slowdown. For Flash, especially for things I'm on a deadline for, near enough IS good enough.


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