This Is gonna take some flak

[wdfcverfgtghm]

Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

[reddeadrevolver]

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

I'd also have to agree that Clinton was a great president, but only on his first 4 year term. He was very open and didn't hide much from the people (Like on a MTV program he once stated that he tried cocaine).

I don't agree that Gore would have made a good president though. Of course, I don't think Bush is making a better president either.

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 6/30/01 11:57 AM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

I'd also have to agree that Clinton was a great president, but only on his first 4 year term. He was very open and didn't hide much from the people (Like on a MTV program he once stated that he tried cocaine).

What was wrong with his last 4 years? Minus The pardons, and illegal fund rasiers?

[reddeadrevolver]

At 6/30/01 11:58 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:57 AM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

I'd also have to agree that Clinton was a great president, but only on his first 4 year term. He was very open and didn't hide much from the people (Like on a MTV program he once stated that he tried cocaine).

What was wrong with his last 4 years? Minus The pardons, and illegal fund rasiers?

Aside his illegal fund raisers and pardons? The fact that he had "inappropriate relations" with another woman outside his marriage, kind of discredits him somewhat. A person in that situation with that amount of power, at least needs to show a little responsibility. Of course, if I was married to Hilary, I'd probably cheat on her too...

Basically, if you take away all the dumb things he did, he was an excellent president.

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 6/30/01 09:11 PM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:58 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:57 AM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

I'd also have to agree that Clinton was a great president, but only on his first 4 year term. He was very open and didn't hide much from the people (Like on a MTV program he once stated that he tried cocaine).

What was wrong with his last 4 years? Minus The pardons, and illegal fund rasiers?

Aside his illegal fund raisers and pardons? The fact that he had "inappropriate relations" with another woman outside his marriage, kind of discredits him somewhat. A person in that situation with that amount of power, at least needs to show a little responsibility. Of course, if I was married to Hilary, I'd probably cheat on her too...

Basically, if you take away all the dumb things he did, he was an excellent president.

I still don't see how having sex with a woman relates to his ability to govern a nation

[shorbe]

Under his reign, some of the most draconian losses of social freedom occurred under the guises of political correctness and affirmative action. The erosion of social freedom hardly makes someone a great democratic leader.

Gore would have been ten times worse.

shorbe

[reddeadrevolver]

At 6/30/01 10:29 PM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/30/01 09:11 PM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:58 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:57 AM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

I'd also have to agree that Clinton was a great president, but only on his first 4 year term. He was very open and didn't hide much from the people (Like on a MTV program he once stated that he tried cocaine).

What was wrong with his last 4 years? Minus The pardons, and illegal fund rasiers?

Aside his illegal fund raisers and pardons? The fact that he had "inappropriate relations" with another woman outside his marriage, kind of discredits him somewhat. A person in that situation with that amount of power, at least needs to show a little responsibility. Of course, if I was married to Hilary, I'd probably cheat on her too...

Basically, if you take away all the dumb things he did, he was an excellent president.

I still don't see how having sex with a woman relates to his ability to govern a nation

It's not the fact that he had sex with a woman outside his marriage, its the fact that he lied about it for several months. A great leadership quality is honesty, and Clinton showed that he couldn't be trusted because of that.

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 6/30/01 11:35 PM, shorbe wrote: Under his reign, some of the most draconian losses of social freedom occurred under the guises of political correctness and affirmative action. The erosion of social freedom hardly makes someone a great democratic leader.

Gore would have been ten times worse.

shorbe

What examples do you have?

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 7/1/01 09:47 AM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 10:29 PM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/30/01 09:11 PM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:58 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:57 AM, Tyrant_Nero wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

I'd also have to agree that Clinton was a great president, but only on his first 4 year term. He was very open and didn't hide much from the people (Like on a MTV program he once stated that he tried cocaine).

What was wrong with his last 4 years? Minus The pardons, and illegal fund rasiers?

Aside his illegal fund raisers and pardons? The fact that he had "inappropriate relations" with another woman outside his marriage, kind of discredits him somewhat. A person in that situation with that amount of power, at least needs to show a little responsibility. Of course, if I was married to Hilary, I'd probably cheat on her too...

Basically, if you take away all the dumb things he did, he was an excellent president.

I still don't see how having sex with a woman relates to his ability to govern a nation

It's not the fact that he had sex with a woman outside his marriage, its the fact that he lied about it for several months. A great leadership quality is honesty, and Clinton showed that he couldn't be trusted because of that.

An honest leader isn't nesicarily a good leader. Macheavellian theory isn't totally correct, but to a point it is.

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 7/1/01 11:09 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote:

At 6/30/01 11:35 PM, shorbe wrote: Under his reign, some of the most draconian losses of social freedom occurred under the guises of political correctness and affirmative action. The erosion of social freedom hardly makes someone a great democratic leader.

Gore would have been ten times worse.

shorbe

What examples do you have?

WTO is one

[IamJacksalias]

I have to disagree. All Clinton showed Americans was the lack of morals this country now has. We don't care what our president does, we no longer hold our leaders to a higher moral stanard than any normal person. i think that is sad. plus I hate the fact he is a gun hating communist.

[shorbe]

Anarchy: The military for one.

shorbe

[reddeadrevolver]

At 7/1/01 12:11 PM, IamJacksalias wrote: I have to disagree. All Clinton showed Americans was the lack of morals this country now has. We don't care what our president does, we no longer hold our leaders to a higher moral stanard than any normal person. i think that is sad. plus I hate the fact he is a gun hating communist.

Do you even know what communism really is?

[IamJacksalias]

Do you even know what communism really is?

The communist thing was just a joke.

[pyroarchy]

At 7/1/01 12:11 PM, IamJacksalias wrote: I have to disagree. All Clinton showed Americans was the lack of morals this country now has. We don't care what our president does, we no longer hold our leaders to a higher moral stanard than any normal person. i think that is sad. plus I hate the fact he is a gun hating communist.

Yes that bastard made gun manufacturers to stop making 30 round mags, now I have to pay like $30 bucks for them cause they don't make them anymore, they'll probaly outlaw hollow points soon...god damnitt

[reddeadrevolver]

At 7/2/01 08:09 PM, IamJacksalias wrote:

Do you even know what communism really is?

The communist thing was just a joke.

Alright. I know alot of people who misuse the term...

[blastzorak]

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

I think Bush is doing okay as a prez.. he isnt great, and hasnt done much for our enviroment.. *cough kyoto cough*... if gore was prez, the treehugger would be doing alot more for the enviroment..

As far as first ladys go, gores bitch wife would have made it hell to buy anything with the whole 'violence in videogames' thing.. she started the parental advisory thing, no? So far laura bush.. well, i havent heard ANYTHING about her yet.. hmm..

and cheney? how was the hospital food?

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 7/2/01 01:51 AM, shorbe wrote: Anarchy: The military for one.

shorbe

The military? ... K, hows about we elaborate. I was hoping for a complete answer to the question of how Bill Clinton took away freedom from the american people. I mean the 4 word answer is good too but... I dunno a bit vague.

[shorbe]

Anarchy: Ask Perdix about the different physical requirements of the sexes for the army (he's in the National Guard).

Furthermore, here are a couple of links. Anecdotal evidence (both Fred's and others'). I'm sure there's a lot more out there (if you bother to look). Actually, the whole site is run by an ex-military man/journalist who says most of the stuff most journalists aren't allowed to say. He's also written for a number of magazines (such as Soldier of Fortune) and toured extensively with both the police and military.

http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MilWomen.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/DontEnlist.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MoreWomenLetters.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MilWomenII.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/WomenInCombat.html

It's not just the military. Look at quotas for university admissions and government jobs. Fred writes about those also.

shorbe

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 7/5/01 09:57 AM, shorbe wrote: Anarchy: Ask Perdix about the different physical requirements of the sexes for the army (he's in the National Guard).

Furthermore, here are a couple of links. Anecdotal evidence (both Fred's and others'). I'm sure there's a lot more out there (if you bother to look). Actually, the whole site is run by an ex-military man/journalist who says most of the stuff most journalists aren't allowed to say. He's also written for a number of magazines (such as Soldier of Fortune) and toured extensively with both the police and military.

http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MilWomen.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/DontEnlist.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MoreWomenLetters.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MilWomenII.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/WomenInCombat.html

It's not just the military. Look at quotas for university admissions and government jobs. Fred writes about those also.

shorbe

K, well these arn't totally Verified, But I see your point. Still not sure if we can blame this souly on clinton, but Some of those things on the pages are just insane.

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 7/5/01 09:57 AM, shorbe wrote: Anarchy: Ask Perdix about the different physical requirements of the sexes for the army (he's in the National Guard).

Furthermore, here are a couple of links. Anecdotal evidence (both Fred's and others'). I'm sure there's a lot more out there (if you bother to look). Actually, the whole site is run by an ex-military man/journalist who says most of the stuff most journalists aren't allowed to say. He's also written for a number of magazines (such as Soldier of Fortune) and toured extensively with both the police and military.

http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MilWomen.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/DontEnlist.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MoreWomenLetters.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/MilWomenII.html
http://www.Fredoneverything.net/WomenInCombat.html

It's not just the military. Look at quotas for university admissions and government jobs. Fred writes about those also.

shorbe

Yah I guess those isolated incodents are good examples. But It's a bit hard to blame of that on clinton alone. Some of those things are just horrible, Just short of tradgic, but There has been a degrade in the military for a long time. I think we should focous on special forces. We don't need to raise military funding but stop using it as an outlet for misfits and renforce out anti-terrorist, and speical forces.

[shorbe]

Anarchy: Well, I think you'll find those became real problems during the nineties.

Furthermore, many of the pressure groups in the Democrats are distinctly anti-military. Affirmative action certainly isn't a Republican thing. The Republicans can be blamed for a lot of things, but not that.

I think also part of the reason they're seen as isolated incidents is for exactly the same reason that most (if not all...I can't remember) of the people writing those letters to Fred wished to remain annonymous. It's the kiss of death to speak out on it if you're in a military career, because the military is controlled by politicians and lobby groups.

There may be exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, few women are going to be able to keep pace with your average military guy. Not only that, but many don't even want to try. Everyone knows this, but no one wants to say it for fear of never being promoted again, or worse. That's why these are "isolated" incidents. I bet if you could confidentially interview most men in the forces or who have recently left, you'd hear it time and again.

shorbe

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 7/5/01 11:44 PM, shorbe wrote: Anarchy: Well, I think you'll find those became real problems during the nineties.

Furthermore, many of the pressure groups in the Democrats are distinctly anti-military. Affirmative action certainly isn't a Republican thing. The Republicans can be blamed for a lot of things, but not that.

I think also part of the reason they're seen as isolated incidents is for exactly the same reason that most (if not all...I can't remember) of the people writing those letters to Fred wished to remain annonymous. It's the kiss of death to speak out on it if you're in a military career, because the military is controlled by politicians and lobby groups.

There may be exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, few women are going to be able to keep pace with your average military guy. Not only that, but many don't even want to try. Everyone knows this, but no one wants to say it for fear of never being promoted again, or worse. That's why these are "isolated" incidents. I bet if you could confidentially interview most men in the forces or who have recently left, you'd hear it time and again.

shorbe

Good point. Acually I unfortunatly agree. I also think that affermative action is outdated. It had its place... HAD. but its time is over. To a point the military does have to become more habitbal then it was say in the 60's-70's vietnam era, however I don't think it should be simply becuase of women. Army life is rough, and we shouldn't make it easy becuase of your gender! We went way to far on that one!

[Low-Budget-Superhero]

At 6/30/01 11:01 AM, Anarchypenguin wrote: Personally I think the Clinton was one of our best presidents of the late 20th century. MINUS SALVAGE RIDER <--- His biggest mistake. And Gore would have made a fine president however not great.

Clinton was good, but he let his ego get to him and literally destroyed his reputation. There were somethings I disliked about Gore (his views on censorship) but I still liked him better than that other canidate. Both knew how to reach people, and mainly the young voters. Sadly, (part of) Gore's ultimate "demise" (if you will) was that he suffered that backlash of Clinton bruised & battered reputation.