The Gaza Holocaust!

[Fadious]

Who is the real Terrorist??

[Korriken]

the morons to keep making attacks from the gaza strip, fucking it up for everyone else living there. Its the classic meat shield / moral backlash tactic. you make an attack from a place that is impossible to counter attack without killing some civilians. when the enemy attacks you and kills some civilians, you make it as public as possible that they killed civilians without mention that you like some of their civilians as well.

It sounds barbaric, but a nation cannot allow its opponents to use a human shield to prevent counter attacks. if they did, Israel would have its hands tied and might as well surrender. If america were to attack china and china placed a bunch of people around a critical power plant, we would still blow it away.

[Fadious]

Israel attacked Palestine first
Palestinians are defending themselves
These defenders have women & children
Israel is targeting them to stop the defenders

[SolInvictus]

At 4/2/08 10:13 AM, Fadious wrote: Who is the real Terrorist??

the jaberwock?

[gumOnShoe]

At 4/2/08 11:56 AM, Fadious wrote: Israel attacked Palestine first

lol

You need to go read a history book. Most people believe Israel IS Palestine. In fact, Israel declared independance and was simultaneously attacked by every Arab nation in the area. "Palestinians" chose not to live peacefully, and still continue to do so. Thats not an excuse for what has been happening though. Both sides are commiting attroicities in the name of a Home Land.

This propaganda war, however is rediculous. Israel doesn't target children. Palestinians are all evil terrorists hiding behind their children. Give it a rest.

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

Both sides are idiots who need to change their tactics if they actually want to get anywhere.

</thread>

[Christopherr]

At 4/2/08 12:36 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Both sides are idiots who need to change their tactics if they actually want to get anywhere.

To be truthful, Israel is quite literally backed into a corner.

[Idiot-Finder]

Happens daily.

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 4/2/08 12:40 PM, Christopherr wrote:

At 4/2/08 12:36 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Both sides are idiots who need to change their tactics if they actually want to get anywhere.

To be truthful, Israel is quite literally backed into a corner.

Not an excuse. The fact they are in that corner despite having the US backing and being one of the strongest nations in the area is testament to how shit their tactics are.

I seem to recall someone stating the definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. That's what Israel ( an also Palestine) are doing. Making the same actions and hoping for a different result when its quite obvious it'll never happen.

The only way this situation will get sorted out is if Israel starts to talk to the Palestine government and works with them. It aint fair that ISrael has to make the first move, but life sucks like that sometimes. In the interest of Israeli safety ( and also Palestinian safety) the two sides need to talk.

Sadly they are both too far up their own asses to realise this despite examples of such things working out in the past ( Northern Ireland for example).

Israel may be in a corner, but that doesn't excuse bad decision making.

[SolInvictus]

since calling what is happening a 'holocaust' wouldn't that imply a comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany? and if so: Godwin's law.

[n64kid]

At 4/2/08 12:52 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Israel may be in a corner, but that doesn't excuse bad decision making.

What the hell are you talking about? Bad decision making is negotiating with terrorists. As far as compromise with palestinian government, Israel tried it in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. In fact, In the 90s, Yitzhak Rabin was willing to give into 97% of the land demanded by palestinians, including making Jerusalem their capital. What happened? Palestinians refused because they only want the destruction of the jews. This is a major reason why negotiations have failed in recent times. Palestinians always use bullshit tactics to make the Jews look bad. Tri nitro, try looking beyond the past 6 years to see what led Israeli policy to what it is now, and then come here and call it bad decision making.

[morefngdbs]

At 4/2/08 12:52 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Sadly they are both too far up their own asses to realise this despite examples of such things working out in the past ( Northern Ireland for example).

;
I think if you go back in history , you can find that neither people's claims are better than the others.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articl es/Article.aspx/747

They just like hating each other... I am really becoming of a mind that these people deserve each other. I believe that they are both equally at fault for what's going on there.
But many of the neighboring Arab countries should also be held responsible for their contribution to the continuation of violence.

[Fadious]

At 4/2/08 12:43 PM, Idiot-Finder wrote: Happens daily.

The next day Israel will capture more, & refill their prisones

[SolInvictus]

At 4/2/08 01:33 PM, Fadious wrote: The next day Israel will capture more, & refill their prisones

if any of them are like those two i don't see the problem.

[Christopherr]

At 4/2/08 12:52 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Israel may be in a corner, but that doesn't excuse bad decision making.

I know they may make bad decisions, but I wouldn't be too hard on them for it.

You must realize that their mindset is "We're up against the wall."

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 4/2/08 01:07 PM, n64kid wrote:

At 4/2/08 12:52 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Israel may be in a corner, but that doesn't excuse bad decision making.

What the hell are you talking about? Bad decision making is negotiating with terrorists.

Because it's never actually had any success in past instances when it's been used has it?

I mean, Northern Ireland is still a hotbed of IRA activity with members of Provos threatening the British Government every day of the week.

Bad decision making is ruling out a plan of action based on blind dogmatic ideology and prejudice. Bad decision making is increasing the dangers your people face as a result of the actions a government takes. Bad decision making is fighting a war with bombs and bullets, when the only way you can win is to sway hearts and minds by changing your actions

Also:

I don't appreciate the your condescending tone and implications of me being ignorant. I am very well aware of the history in the region.

It may be just under 10 years or so since Israel was prepared to give in totally ( i will admit that is new on me, but I'll take your word for it), but there's a little phrase that says ' a week is a long time in politics'. A decade is practically a lifetime and changes can, and indeed have, been made in term of how Palestinians perceive Israel.

There are enough groups working in the areas with children and youths to bring together Jewish and Palestinian communities in areas like Gaza to testify to that.

At 4/2/08 01:48 PM, Christopherr wrote:

At 4/2/08 12:52 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Israel may be in a corner, but that doesn't excuse bad decision making.

I know they may make bad decisions, but I wouldn't be too hard on them for it.

I sympathise with the Israeli peoples plight but that doesn't mean that the actions of their government should go critiqued and their actions unchecked. The minute you let that happen is the minute you give the go ahead for war crimes of all sorts to be committed. Not saying Israel would go ahead and start doing genocide or anything, but it sets a precedent for the justification of such actions which other...shall we say less democratically inclined states may take?

You must realize that their mindset is "We're up against the wall."

But that's the thing, they aren't actually up against the wall. They have the backing of the US, who isn't, unless they start nuking places, going to try and stop them. They are one of, if not the most, economically and militarily developed states in the region. They aren't up against a wall. They may be surrounded on all sides by people who want them out, but they aren't the under dogs by a long shot.

[Gunter45]

So, Fadious, since you're obviously a huge supporter of innocent life, I take it you're also strongly against the Palestinian tactics as well, correct? I mean, you can't lambast Israel for attacking terrorist bases of operations and killing civilians as a matter of collateral damage and then not even talk about Hamas blowing up restaurants and busses which are, to my understanding, totally civilian targets of no military importance.

You're not a hypocrite, right?

[Fadious]

It's sure harsh, but Israel started it
When the Nazi German troops invaded Europe, they killed, destroyed & raped.
And when the tide of war turned in favor of the Allied forces and the Soviets, they did the same thing with Germany.
You have to put things in prospective before you judge.
Zionists started a war with Palestine.

[Christopherr]

At 4/2/08 02:34 PM, Gunter45 wrote: So, Fadious, since you're obviously a huge supporter of innocent life, I take it you're also strongly against the Palestinian tactics as well, correct? I mean, you can't lambast Israel for attacking terrorist bases of operations and killing civilians as a matter of collateral damage and then not even talk about Hamas blowing up restaurants and busses which are, to my understanding, totally civilian targets of no military importance.

I believe he's on the Palestinians' side, so of course he won't go against them.

Instead, he's hiding behind a false veil of humanitarianism. He could care less about collateral damage and is using this to get at the people he hates.

Nothing he says has even a pinch of rationality to it.

[Gunter45]

At 4/2/08 02:52 PM, Fadious wrote: It's sure harsh, but Israel started it

Hahahaha, keep believing whatever you're told. Both sides are at fault.

When the Nazi German troops invaded Europe, they killed, destroyed & raped.
And when the tide of war turned in favor of the Allied forces and the Soviets, they did the same thing with Germany.

And yet the resistance movements went after military targets, not civilian ones. You never saw the French go into Germany and start blowing up busses just because they were pissed off. It's a poor analogy.

You have to put things in prospective before you judge.
Zionists started a war with Palestine.

Too bad Palestine started a war with Israel right when Britain declared Israel a new country. So, you know, I guess you could ignore that. Both sides are to blame so don't act like Palestine is innocent, much less beyond reproach. Palestine TARGETS civilians, that's unacceptable no matter what your situation is.

[Idiot-Finder]

At 4/2/08 03:00 PM, Christopherr wrote:
I believe he's on the Palestinians' side, so of course he won't go against them.

Even with the suicide bombing, the killings at the 1972 Olympics, and using a Mickey Mouse rip-off to convince kids to jihad? He is a sad case.

[SolInvictus]

At 4/2/08 02:52 PM, Fadious wrote: It's sure harsh, but Israel started it
When the Nazi German troops invaded Europe, they killed, destroyed & raped.
And when the tide of war turned in favor of the Allied forces and the Soviets, they did the same thing with Germany.

does that somehow make what they did right?

[Oblivia]

At 4/2/08 02:52 PM, Fadious wrote: It's sure harsh, but Israel started it
When the Nazi German troops invaded Europe, they killed, destroyed & raped.
And when the tide of war turned in favor of the Allied forces and the Soviets, they did the same thing with Germany.
You have to put things in prospective before you judge.
Zionists started a war with Palestine.

Lesser of the two evils, it's better to be on the side who've killed thousands just to get rid of a deranged racist government than to be on the side who have an agenda of slaughtering a culture to the point of extinction. The Nazi Holocaust in everyway severly dwarfs the lives taken by the Allies.

[n64kid]

At 4/2/08 02:21 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote:

Because it's never actually had any success in past instances when it's been used has it?

I'd disagree. Although war sucks in general, palestinians have been shown to respond more favorably when force is used. Consider IQ by nation and notice the inferior IQs to their Israeli counterparts. One must use empathy and consider palestinian sentiment. Seeing how I've been to Israel, the west bank, and knowing the situation in Gaza from locals along with seeing protocols for tourism regarding visiting Gaza, you can say palestinians are simply fools and perceive the conflict as a game. I know many will disagree, but that's how they view life, as getting the better of your opponent.

I mean, Northern Ireland is still a hotbed of IRA activity with members of Provos threatening the British Government every day of the week.

Bad decision making is ruling out a plan of action based on blind dogmatic ideology and prejudice. Bad decision making is increasing the dangers your people face as a result of the actions a government takes. Bad decision making is fighting a war with bombs and bullets, when the only way you can win is to sway hearts and minds by changing your actions

Once again, I like how you're trying to use the "understand your enemy in order to bring peace" approach, but it's very utopian. I suggest you go on and live among the palestinians in context, and then I feel like you could give an opinion of what the good and bad decision making is in this situation.

Also:

I don't appreciate the your condescending tone and implications of me being ignorant. I am very well aware of the history in the region.

I get pissed off when anyone makes it seem like Israeli's are just to blame as Palestinians when history and current events show otherwise. I'm also sorry if my tone insulted or offended you. Howeve, I don't think anyone on this server knows more about the history of the middle east than either myself, or zoolrule.

It may be just under 10 years or so since Israel was prepared to give in totally ( i will admit that is new on me, but I'll take your word for it), but there's a little phrase that says ' a week is a long time in politics'. A decade is practically a lifetime and changes can, and indeed have, been made in term of how Palestinians perceive Israel.

Not much changed, in the conflict of 2004, Israel offered to give farm lands that the palestinians claimed that was between Haifa and Lebanon. Once again, negotiations failed while westerners and Israeli soldiers were being kidnapped and beheaded.

There are enough groups working in the areas with children and youths to bring together Jewish and Palestinian communities in areas like Gaza to testify to that.

Enough? I've heard of these groups, and most are backed by Israel which shows what side wants the peace. However, theres only a minority who backs Hamas, but also a smaller minority who back Israel. Today is not a time for achieving successful negotiations. Go ask Cellar what he has to show how palestinian communities view jewish ones.

At 4/2/08 02:52 PM, Fadious wrote: It's sure harsh, but Israel started it
When the Nazi German troops invaded Europe, they killed, destroyed & raped.
And when the tide of war turned in favor of the Allied forces and the Soviets, they did the same thing with Germany.
You have to put things in prospective before you judge.
Zionists started a war with Palestine.

Great, another day, another NUTTER.

[Christopherr]

At 4/2/08 03:03 PM, Idiot-Finder wrote:

At 4/2/08 03:00 PM, Christopherr wrote:
I believe he's on the Palestinians' side, so of course he won't go against them.

Even with the suicide bombing, the killings at the 1972 Olympics, and using a Mickey Mouse rip-off to convince kids to jihad? He is a sad case.

He's obviously brainwashed.

Anything we tell him that contradicts his beliefs will be regarded as wrong, because we're the liars, not them.

[fahrenheit]

At 4/2/08 05:26 PM, n64kid wrote: I don't think anyone on this server knows more about the history of the middle east than either myself, or zoolrule.

Wow, you could write a book on how to completely destroy your own argument.

[n64kid]

At 4/2/08 05:44 PM, fahrenheit wrote:

Wow, you could write a book on how to completely destroy your own argument.

Care to elaborate? I've been there, seen concrete proof of both claims to existance, and seen both parties piece together the puzzle. Watched many documentaries, read many books, been to many museums and talked with a lot of local Israelis and palestinians living there. I believe Zoolrule, althougjh not the most articulate person, knows a lot more material on the subject than you or anyone else.

Just look at the propaganda and brain washed posts and replies on this server. People buy into inaccurate political cartoons, and the best you can come up with is zilch.

[Christopherr]

At 4/2/08 07:03 PM, n64kid wrote: Just look at the propaganda and brain washed posts and replies on this server. People buy into inaccurate political cartoons, and the best you can come up with is zilch.

I don't even bother interpreting cartoons.

[Slizor]

Quick question: when did the suicide bombings and general (that is to say, widespread) terrorist operations by the Palestinians begin?

Follow-on question: In light of this information, does anyone want to change their narrative of Israel's history and the supposed intentions of the Palestinians?

[fahrenheit]

At 4/2/08 07:03 PM, n64kid wrote: Care to elaborate?

I've actually discussed both you and zoorule on this subject. You left the argument and zoorule kept claiming that he doesn't need to prove his "facts" and that since I was disagreeing with him I must be brainwashed by propaganda.

I've been there

So have a lot of people, that doesn't make your word divine mandate.

knows a lot more material on the subject than you or anyone else.

Theres one of your main problems, you assume you and him know more then everyone else simply because you were there and that zoorule agrees with you.
Besides, just because your well versed with the subject doesn't necessarily mean you are right. And ignoring other peoples opinion because it comes from another source that isn't first hand is just foolish.

People buy into inaccurate political cartoons,

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you minimize other peoples arguments to propaganda and claim your argument isn't and therefor are right.

So please save the bullshit argument that "I was there, I am right" and actually provide information. Because if you don't I'm afraid I'm going to have to claim I'm god and automatically overturn your argument.