The Politics of Video games

[ZJ]

Hey NG! With the recent creation of the Video game board I thought it'd be a good time to ask this question in this board:

Should Politicians be concerned with the effects of Video games on our society?

[animehater]

Yes, because video games are evil and should be banned.

[Christopherr]

Ummm... no.

We already have ESRB ratings for mature games, which are enforced by all major retailers. You must be 18 or over if you wish to buy an 18+ game without a parent or guardian present. The parent has the choice of allowing their kid to buy the game or not. All they have to do is determine whether their kid is mature enough for the game.

There's nothing else that can be done, anyways. What are we going to do, make it a misdemeanor charge to play games underage? It's impossible to be enforced.

Movies are another prime example of this. R-rated movies are restricted to those 17 and older and minors who have parents or guardians with them.

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

Of course. Just like it should be legally enforceable that theaters not air pornographic content to children, so should it be legally enforceable that video game retailers don't do the same thing.

[Christopherr]

At 3/22/08 06:35 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote: Of course. Just like it should be legally enforceable that theaters not air pornographic content to children, so should it be legally enforceable that video game retailers don't do the same thing.

The sexual scenes in movies are just as explicit as, if not more than, video games.

And video game stores don't retail to kids unless a parent is there next to them, to make sure they know they are letting their kid have a mature game. Theaters don't air pornographic content to kids either.

Any pornographic content in the media is highly censored anyways.

[RobSoko315]

What I feel is more important than government intervention of gaming is parental control of gaming. Parents know not to buy there kids a rated "R" movie because its rated "R", but they have no idea what "M" means in a game. Parents need to become more video game aware, and know what their kids are playing.
Also, which I feel is most important, parents should limit video game playing hours. I know kids who can sit down for an entire day and do nothing but play Xbox. Kids are becoming fat and lazy, and you can't blame them, because its the parents' fault for letting them play for hours and hours.

[LazyPint]

It's interesting to think about the future. We grew up as videogames became really engrained into our culture, compared to the days when it was just Pacman arcade machines. What will you teach your kids about videogames? Will you let them play games you know they're too young for?

I probably will...

[ZJ]

I don't think our parent's generation will ever understand it and will always be agains't it, but I have two more questions for you:

1) Will things ever get as bad as 1993/94 when The Government said they would take action if nothing happened?

2) What do you think will happen with our generation with ratings? Do you think we"ll educate our kids about it? Will be better or worse than our parents?

[Christopherr]

At 3/22/08 10:17 PM, puddinN64 wrote: 1) Will things ever get as bad as 1993/94 when The Government said they would take action if nothing happened?

Depends what kind of person gets in office.

2) What do you think will happen with our generation with ratings? Do you think we"ll educate our kids about it? Will be better or worse than our parents?

Who knows? You're the one making the decisions about your kid. Either you can make your kid happy and give him mature games, or you can do the right thing and make him wait until he's older.

[Christopherr]

At 3/22/08 11:10 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 3/22/08 06:16 PM, puddinN64 wrote: Should Politicians be concerned with the effects of Video games on our society?

Yes

No, parents should. Politicians should focus on more important issues, ones that have solutions that aren't already in place. Before the big bad politicians come to wave their big sticks around and save the day, there has to be a problem. Obviously, corporations and parents are getting the idea without their help. Nothing is wrong with people solving their own problems when they can.

Here's what GameStop (connected to EB Games, another major retailer) does to employees who sell M-rated games to minors.

[D2Kvirus]

Only if they're so insignificant to the political process they have to jump on Daily Mail-sponsored bandwagons.

Like this fuckwit, in other words

[AbstractVagabond]

At 3/22/08 11:43 PM, Christopherr wrote: No, parents should. Politicians should focus on more important issues, ones that have solutions that aren't already in place. Before the big bad politicians come to wave their big sticks around and save the day, there has to be a problem. Obviously, corporations and parents are getting the idea without their help. Nothing is wrong with people solving their own problems when they can.

Here's what GameStop (connected to EB Games, another major retailer) does to employees who sell M-rated games to minors.

1) Keep in mind that parents are incapable to raising children. They don't have the tools needed to bring them up like politicians can. Americans are weak and stupid and should be grateful someone is looking out for them. I understand my limitations. That's why I will never become a father.

2) Not only that, those employees should serve a year in prison for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

[Christopherr]

At 3/23/08 06:43 PM, AbstractVagabond wrote: 1) Keep in mind that parents are incapable to raising children. They don't have the tools needed to bring them up like politicians can. Americans are weak and stupid and should be grateful someone is looking out for them. I understand my limitations. That's why I will never become a father.

Incapable or no, the government should beat it. When parents think it's a problem, they'll work on it.

2) Not only that, those employees should serve a year in prison for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

No, they shouldn't. There's no credible evidence that video games contribute to delinquency.

[Hazard-Productions]

At 3/23/08 06:47 PM, Christopherr wrote: Incapable or no, the government should beat it. When parents think it's a problem, they'll work on it.
No, they shouldn't. There's no credible evidence that video games contribute to delinquency.

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Christopherr]

At 3/23/08 10:25 PM, Hazard-Productions wrote: I think he was being sarcastic.

Oh... I didn't pick up on it. The second statement looked serious, so I figured he was serious.

[darksytze]

no.

99,9% of the adults aren't interested in videogames, they do want to have a say in it because games do play a huge role because a lot of kids/teens play games. but what happens if you get an adult that doesn't like video games and see's that games are portrayed as cartridges and optical discs packed with violence, sex and other shit adults don't want kids to look at. i blame fox news, fucking cunts. they get some total assjockey to sulk about mass effect and spreads lies about it ''baww you are able too perform sex, see nudity and able to sexually harass aliens! BOO'' none of that shit is true, but adults don't care. it's coming from the NEWS, so it must be right, right? no, dipshits.

if adults don't want to go further then looking at the box of the game, then let them go the fuck away.

[Musician]

At 3/23/08 10:52 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 3/23/08 06:47 PM, Christopherr wrote: No, they shouldn't. There's no credible evidence that video games contribute to delinquency.

Next time do some research before you make a claim like that

Keyword credible. Later studies have shown there isn't sufficient evidence to link video games to violence

[ASHero]

No boobs, but you're allowed to blow off people's skulls and mutilate their corpses.

[Musician]

At 3/23/08 11:12 PM, Grammer wrote: I seriously doubt that study's credibility. First of all, you said "later studies". The study you linked to was August 2005. Same month and year, the APA sent out a memo warning of the dangerous effects of violent video games. And if I had to compare sources, the University of Illinois, versus the American Psychological Association, I will have to side with the APA.

"The statement said that studies of video games and interactive media show the perpetrators of violence go unpunished 73 percent of the time." As in this wasn't a study of the long term effects of video games on youth, and their statement was basically purely speculation. Not to mention you linked to FOX news...

Secondly, the dude in your article was quoted as saying this: "I'm not saying some games don't lead to aggression, but I am saying the data are not there yet. Until we have more long-term studies, I don't think we should make strong predictions about long-term effects, especially given this finding."

Right, which is exactly what I said, there isn't sufficient evidence to link video games to violence.

In fact, the issue is rather more complicated than critics and defenders of video games might suggest. Williams noted: "This game featured fantasy violence, while others featuring outer space or even everyday urban violence may yield different outcomes."

Williams admitted that because the test didn't centre solely on younger teenagers, he could not say that "teenagers might not experience different effects", while noting that "older players in their study were "perhaps more strongly influenced by game play and argued with friends more than their younger counterparts".

Williams said that the study was conducted on a variety of ages, and that no correlation was found. As opposed to the APA which didn't conduct any clinical study whatsoever.

Bottom line: when the largest psychological association in all of America says it's true, you better damn well believe it's true.

Bottom line: The APA's reasoning is purely speculatory. You can try and link things together all you want, but until it is shown IN PRACTICE to be true, then all it is is speculation. That's it.

[jcorishas]

At 3/23/08 11:14 PM, Grammer wrote: More in-depth research by the APA, with professionals referenced at the bottom, as all scholarly sources should

Grammer, games like basketball, football or soccer increase aggression in not just the players but the fans as well, why aren't we banning minors from watching or playing them? Where is the study that shows video games cause more aggression than normal competition creates?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=URwiZLZipeg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q84dHZACah4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EyIDsGXI658

The important question is not whether playing violent video games increase aggression (because a million things can do that) but whether playing video games cause violent tendencies to emerge; all the studies conducted by the APA are severely lacking in the proper methodology and data needed to make any conclusion to that effect.

This tirade against video games echoes the moral panics that swelled up against movies and rock and roll and is just as baseless; the idea that video games cause violent tendencies is ludicrous. I've watched violent movies, listened to "violent" music and played violent video games all my life and I'm as gentle as a lamb. Hell, I'd wager that 97% of all gamers in the world have done nothing more violent than a fist fight.

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

At 3/22/08 06:53 PM, Christopherr wrote:

The sexual scenes in movies are just as explicit as, if not more than, video games.

Compare "Hortan Hares a Who" with "The Guy Game"

And video game stores don't retail to kids unless a parent is there next to them, to make sure they know they are letting their kid have a mature game. Theaters don't air pornographic content to kids either.

Yes.

Theaters don't air pornographic content to kids because it's illegal.

Any pornographic content in the media is highly censored anyways.

Yeah, that scene from "Backyard Pool Sluts" where that chick took two cocks up her ass was totally censored as hell.

I mean, what, are you kidding me? Unless you live in Japan (lolblurry), pornographic content is not "censored".

[M-GOD]

It is the parents job to be aware of what games their kids are playing and everything else in thier lives. But as a side note, I really don't think it's possible for a game to influence someones behavoir. If some one becomes voilent because of a game they're playing then they are stupid and shouldn't be playing games in the first place. It is called personal resposibility. Besides this doesn't just concern M-games. In Sonic Adventure 2 sonic(E-rated i'm sure) jumped from a fricken helicopter. So since games influence people's behavior will some one jump from a helicopter after playing it? So if voilent games influence peoples acts of voilence then you have to consider the possible(but not likely) influence of other games and the situations that take place in them. Also games are works of art and intelligence not voilent porn.

[sauronman]

Let's look at history, shall we? prohibition banned all alcohol in the United States. but all it did was start a new age of crime! its also true what everyone's saying about it being impossible to enforce. pornography, prostitution, ilegally downloaded movies, it's all on the internet.

[Al6200]

At 3/24/08 03:46 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 3/24/08 12:45 AM, jcorishas wrote: Grammer, games like basketball, football or soccer increase aggression in not just the players but the fans as well, why aren't we banning minors from watching or playing them? Where is the study that shows video games cause more aggression than normal competition creates?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=URwiZLZipeg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q84dHZACah4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EyIDsGXI658

Your pathetic attempt to make one thing seem less bad because something else may or may not be worse is unappreciated and I hope you apologize for using such a childish tactic in a debate.

Wait, can I ask why or how this is a childish tactic? If a is worse than b in a certain respect, than a should be banned before b, assuming that it is the responsibility of the government to protect private citizens from themselves.

If we are to accept his evidence, then the logical conclusion is that banning videogames should only be banned once we have banned numerous other art-forms and types of expression - a totally valid point that shoots down the reason or logic behind your ban.

[Christopherr]

At 3/23/08 10:50 PM, Grammer wrote: Parents are irresponsible. Should we trust only parents to keep children away from alcohol, as well?

Government made that illegal, too. Does it keep them away from alcohol? Would a ban on video game sales to kids really stop kids from getting them? It'd be like prohibition, except much easier to get away with.

If you're caught selling alcohol to a minor, you lose your liquor license. If you're caught selling video games to minors, that person should be restriced from retailing in video games.

Oh my god, the corporations already have rules against it. They already restrict their sales to minors, and they fire any employees who sell to minors.

"We should focus on other things, so therefore your argument is moot"

That's just one thing I said, and it's true. What's a politician doing going on about sales of video video games if the companies are already fixing the problem?

Don't care.

You want the government to solve it, but you don't care if it's being solved?

There is a problem. Minors are getting their hands on violent video games. The APA has reported that violent video games foster violent tendencies. Don't believe me? Okay, ask for me a source. Do it. Come on.

All major retailers restrict sales to minors unless they have a parent standing with them. If the sale of video games to these kids was a problem, then kids playing them must also be a problem. Therefore, a ban on the sale of the games is futile, because kids will still be doing the same exact things they already do to acquire and play the games. There is no efficient way to regulate the playing of these games.

Good for them.

The government hasn't told them to do anything, and they're already doing it.

[D-Kre]

Although i love to play video games there is a certain point were they go to far Grand theft auto is a prime exapmle were you go around shotting hijacking and even decapitaing people while evading the police and trying to kill them some video games have gone to far what ever happened to the good old days of NES???

[Christopherr]

At 3/24/08 07:22 PM, Grammer wrote: Your point in that banning something stop people from using it is valid, though no one in this thread has advocated "banning" video games.

Banning the sales would be a solution to part of the "video gaming problem" that is being solved.

The restrictions should be government-mandated, in my opinion; we shouldn't have to rely on the self-imposed policies of big corporations

These self-imposed policies are not going to go away unless the legal system is fixed. The corporations are profit-driven, and are not allowing kids to buy games, lest they be sued. Sure, they don't give a damn about the children, but they do care about their wallets.

No, it's not, it's ridiculous, as I explain in my post before this.

When corporations stop regulating themselves is a better time than now. That won't happen until lawsuits stop being cash cows for mothers whose children buy video games.

No, I'm saying the point made about companies imposing restrictions upon themselves is irrelevant, as company policy is bendable, government mandate is not.

Government mandate in this situation is more likely to change than policy decided by profits.

Really, all of them? Every single one? Do you know that for a fact? What about mom-and-pop game stores, hmm?

I'm sure many of them do it too, because they are even more vulnerable to lawsuits, not having top-class lawyers.

Furthermore, it is true that many of the kids who commit violent crimes play video games. It is also true that most kids play video games. Of course most of the kids who commit violent crimes play video games. Rather, the two major causes of violent crimes are home stability and quality of life.

According to federal studies, juvenile crime is about the lowest it has ever been in 30 years. In the modern age, parents are always searching for something to blame their child's problems on. This leads to paranoia, fear, and an inability to differentiate between reality and fiction.

[FatherTime89]

I have done a paper on this for high school so I think I should adress the issues brought up here.

First off many states have tried to make it illegal to sell violent games to minors but they have all been ruled unconstitutional and cost the states hunderds of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Why?

Because games have been ruled to be free speech and thus the states can ban the sale of them from minors only if they can prove that they are harmful to minors (hence why porn is illegal for minors).

And the courts have ruled that the evidence is insufficient EVERY SINGLE TIME (and the states can use any and all studies they can get their hands on but the burden still rests on the states to prove they cause harm).

The most recent of these occured this very month
http://www.startribune.com/local/1674935 1.html

Second in regards to the APA
http://gamepolitics.com/2006/09/19/no-di rect-causal-link-between-games-violence-
in-apa-report/#comments

Third
http://www.springerlink.com/content/6621 7176984x7477/

(and yes I have the full study printed from a university right here in my hand) and he cites more people than your guy)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Most -kids-unaffected-by-violent-games/2007/0 4/01/1175366055463.html

http://www.theesa.com/facts/third_party.
php#violence

http://www.gamecouch.com/2008/02/intervi ew-dr-cheryl-olson-co-author-of-grand-th eft-childhood/

http://content.apa.org/journals/emo/8/1/
114
(not sure about that study though, it looks a bit flimsy in methodology).

Here are some interviews:
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/article.asp?
SCID=27&CIID=104069

http://southeastpsych.blogspot.com/2008/
02/video-games-and-aggression.html

And finally yes big groups like the APA really do make studies with serious flaws in them.
Although if you believe every study we should start banning book stores from selling the bible to college kids.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,66 0199036,00.html

(Just to clarify that last study used a very flimsy methodology and should not be taken seriously).

[CaptainChip]

I don't see how video games are bad for kids. I think, instead of being coldblooded killers, kids that play video games are indifferent to violence.

[Christopherr]

At 3/26/08 07:28 PM, Grammer wrote:

Hey, this isn't a question-dodging thing, but would you mind not picking apart single sentences into about 4 portions and analyzing each portion and not the sentence as a whole?

It makes replying to your post too convoluted of a process to do.

... and would you redo that last reply so I can grasp what you're saying?