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At 2/20/08 01:23 AM, Sanch wrote: Communism is fine, thogh it has never actually existed in the world, and never will. Blame Cold War paranoia for the hate.

Don't tell me that Marxist Communism never existed when I can show you this map of countries that have been or are now communist.

At 2/20/08 01:38 AM, public-enemy1 wrote: Don't tell me that Marxist Communism never existed when I can show you this map of countries that have been or are now communist.

disregard this post....I misunderstood you

At 2/19/08 08:03 PM, ZIM106 wrote: when communism is the government usually sense everyone is getting equal amounts of everything there is no need to go to college or get schooling, or even get a good job...... no need to work for anything better because there is nothing better waiting for hard workers. everyone becomes stupider because they didn't go to college... the society loses there doctors, lawyers, and teachers. so then the whole place starts falling apart........ :]

What are you basing this assumption on? The Soviet Union had the most Scientists and the leading physicists in its time. Not counting the leading athletes, musicians and doctors.
The Soviet Union surely never lacked specialists in any given sphere.

This raises the question of whether or not you actually know whats in the Communist Manifesto.

Or the fact that I read it! Where do you get the idea it was from the Egyptians? Cite source?

There's a reason why Communist countries never allow people to vote. If people were allowed to vote for who they want in power, they'd vote for a person who either wants Capitalism or Socialism.

At 2/18/08 10:38 AM, KeithHybrid wrote: The problem with communism is that, in trying to keep things equal for people, people wind up getting less than they need. Also, complete equality is an impossibility: people need leaders.

I'm not saying captialism is all that great, but I would much prefer the lesser of the two evils.

Well the original creators of communism's ideology was interpreted differently by the former USSR than most people would have like. Communism as a whole is not "Evil" but rather misinterpreted by it's participating parties, such as Cuba, and (Pre-cold war) Russia.

At 2/20/08 05:13 AM, RabidSquirrelStudios wrote:

This raises the question of whether or not you actually know whats in the Communist Manifesto.

Or the fact that I read it! Where do you get the idea it was from the Egyptians? Cite source?

I don't need to cite sources when I can tell you that article 1 of the U.S. Constitution allows for congress to impose "taxes, duties, imposts and excises. You seriously believe that Marx was the first person to come up with the idea of taxes?

Christ...

At 2/18/08 10:13 AM, BuddhaGeo wrote: And please do not confuse communism with totalitarianism.

Have you even skimmed over the Communist Manifesto?

Karl Marx makes no secret of the fact that in order to attain his Communist paradise, there has to be a period of totalitarianism.

Moving on what's wrong with Communism? Nothing is ethically wrong. It's a nice idea. Regrettably, it ignores every negative aspect of human nature, dooming any large Communist societies to degenerate into a corrupt totalitarian hell.

Communism is too vulnurable to corruption. It gives leaders lots of power. If someone has a lot of power, they probably dont want to give it up. Communism is vulnurable to dictatorships and totalitarianism. The Soviet Union collapsed on itself due to its inability to support itself economically.

Let me put it simply this way and I'm surprise no one even mentioned it.

This may seem like pro-American ranting, but its not. The one inharent flaw in communism is freedom. You could say that making every single people even on the same level makes them free, but that's just dreamer crap. Anyone who wants to get higher in life cannot because they are always stuck at that same level.

Not to mention Communism forces everyone to be on board even if they don't want to.

It sounds great on paper, sure, but there has never ever in the history of mankind been a Communist system that hasn't been coupled with human rights abuse and corrupt governments.

Corrupt corperations, at the end of the day, don't control the people. It just takes one person in a capatalist sytem to get up there in the goverment and shut them down. Look at Enron, Global Crossing, Tycho, etc.

In Communism the goverment controls your life no matter what.

I think that sucks worse.

Hey I like it. The reason countries are afraid of it is their leaders are afraid of losing their power. Watch Good Luck, And Good Night. I'm sure communism has it's flaws, but im sure they can be fixed.

And please do not confuse communism with totalitarianism.

Have you even skimmed over the Communist Manifesto?

Karl Marx makes no secret of the fact that in order to attain his Communist paradise, there has to be a period of totalitarianism.

I think the problem is that you did skim through the Communist Manifesto and did not take the time to understood what was being said.

Read.

Moving on what's wrong with Communism? Nothing is ethically wrong. It's a nice idea. Regrettably, it ignores every negative aspect of human nature, dooming any large Communist societies to degenerate into a corrupt totalitarian hell.

OMG! You've got the answer to the question of what is Human Nature! How long did you spend developing this groundbreaking idea?

This may seem like pro-American ranting, but its not. The one inharent flaw in communism is freedom. You could say that making every single people even on the same level makes them free, but that's just dreamer crap. Anyone who wants to get higher in life cannot because they are always stuck at that same level.

What you describe isn't freedom, its promotion. Promotion is possible in a number of communist systems.

The problem with communism, is that people are not made equal- some are smarter, more beautiful, than others.

Also- communism halts progress, people will only work if they are motivated.

I think the best approach is a merit based socialist system.

we'll talk when we get robots doing all the jobs no one wants to do

Communism is a great system; if people are willing. Having everyone equal is a utopian idea, and unfortunatley, won't work unless the people stop worrying about being the best and are willing to accept a Communism government.

Although, Stalin DID murder all those people...

At 2/21/08 01:15 AM, Stoicish wrote: Let me put it simply this way and I'm surprise no one even mentioned it.

This may seem like pro-American ranting, but its not. The one inharent flaw in communism is freedom.

Actually I would argue the inherent flaw with Communism is power. (and of course the corruption of that power) for any ruling body to work there has to be a power difference whether it's in ademocratic system as in the US or in ancient Egypt with an imperialist society. In order for government to rule it must hold a position of power within the system otherwise any Joe off the street could tell people what to do causing chaos.

Now why Communism can't possibly exist successfully in the current world is because the meer concept of it (and it is the closest political theory to Utopia...that was what drove it to be created in the first place) is in direct conflict of the natural power struggle that occurs in nature. If as a system it needs to go through an amount of Totalitarianism then it is ultimately doomed because in order for Totalitarianism to work some one or some group of ones have to have the ultimate power, the boom stick if you will. And people do not give up power....EVER! That's why they say power corrupts... absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Solzhenitsyn [I can't spell his name for beans] Was a Russian historian who heavily criticized communism and the soviet union, he wrote books about the 'Gulag' [A sort of work camp] And argued that the 'west' [the non communists] should have worked harder to liberate the world from communism, essentially calling the west a bunch of pussies.

I am going to read one of his famous books 'a day in the life of ivan desidorid' In a few days. It's about the gulag, as i mentioned.

Human beings do not share a collective consciousness, and they probably never will. They're vastly more independent creatures seeking the benefit of themselfs and smaller groups [Their families] What advantage capitalism has over communism is that capitalism relies on this inherent quality and attempts to use it in order to benefit society, [The invisible hand, economic competition, work hardest and smartest and get the most ammount of money, etc. etc.] Communism relies on the good nature of human beings and blames 'systems' for corrupting mankind, and tries to put all of the systems into the hands of 1 group.

The problem is that Communism doesn't exist and never works.

It destroys itself from the inside.

Communism is a flawed ideal.

An ideal society is one that rewards the intelligent, virtuous, and ambitious; and punishes the weak, ignorant, and lazy.

The government should only intervene in so far as luck is reduced as a factor and social mobility is ensured.

Classes are good for without them there is no hope of a better station, the proletariat become the plebeians, the plebeians become the equestrians, the equestrians the senators and the senators the new emperors.

Also the oligarchy is a flawed form of government as is the tyranny as is anarchy!

A republic is the ideal.

I'm tired of these stupid debates about capitalism vs. socialism. I personally think that socialism is better, but that's not the core issue in a society. The core issue is whether or not liberty is retained. If liberty is retained, then the people can decide for themselves whether they want to be capitalist (for motivation) or socialist (to eliminate impoverishment). Liberty over authority. That's what it comes down to.

At 2/20/08 06:32 PM, TehChahlesh wrote:

At 2/18/08 10:13 AM, BuddhaGeo wrote: And please do not confuse communism with totalitarianism.

Have you even skimmed over the Communist Manifesto?

Karl Marx makes no secret of the fact that in order to attain his Communist paradise, there has to be a period of totalitarianism.

Yeah, but that's Marxism. Most credible socialist organizations in the world today understand that democracy has to be preserved and strengthened in order to create a truly amazing society.

At 2/28/08 12:58 AM, GaiusIuliusTaberna wrote: Communism is a flawed ideal.

An ideal society is one that rewards the intelligent, virtuous, and ambitious; and punishes the weak, ignorant, and lazy.

The government should only intervene in so far as luck is reduced as a factor and social mobility is ensured.

Classes are good for without them there is no hope of a better station, the proletariat become the plebeians, the plebeians become the equestrians, the equestrians the senators and the senators the new emperors.

Also the oligarchy is a flawed form of government as is the tyranny as is anarchy!

A republic is the ideal.

Communism and republicanism aren't mutually exclusive. If I ever join a socialist party, it would either be a democratic socialist party or a labor party. I agree that the current socialist societies are just oligarchies in disguise and I do not morally support their tyranny. But to blame this purely on the flaws of the communist ideology altogether seems silly as opposed to just blaming Marxism. I've read the manifesto and I know where you're coming from. Marxism and Leninism are both flawed in the belief that oligarchy is essential to the revolution and this underlying principle is more than likely the sole issue of what's wrong with the socialist world today. Socialism needs democracy or it comes down like a house of cards. But so does capitalist society.

And what's to say that there's no hope in a classless society? I think there's a lot of hope in knowing that my opinion will never be overshadowed by someone else's just because they have more money than me.

The hope in a classed society is power. The hope in a classless society is liberty. Make your choice.

At 2/20/08 02:33 AM, BuddhaGeo wrote:

At 2/19/08 08:03 PM, ZIM106 wrote: when communism is the government usually sense everyone is getting equal amounts of everything there is no need to go to college or get schooling, or even get a good job...... no need to work for anything better because there is nothing better waiting for hard workers. everyone becomes stupider because they didn't go to college... the society loses there doctors, lawyers, and teachers. so then the whole place starts falling apart........ :]

What are you basing this assumption on? The Soviet Union had the most Scientists and the leading physicists in its time. Not counting the leading athletes, musicians and doctors.
The Soviet Union surely never lacked specialists in any given sphere.

And even if the assumption that people wouldn't be motivated to educate themselves is true, that's true in capitalist society anyway. The way I see it, some people would be lazy and not get educated, while some take ADVANTAGE of the fact that all education costs the same and become doctors or scientists. The rest will just do what they want, like in capitalist society, so there wouldn't be much of a change at all.

It's impossible to implement properly.
The basic idea of communism is that what people get is based on their ability and need, but it's impossible to measure ability and need, at least on a large scale. This meant that the system became corrupt. What people got was based more on class and location than ability and need.

At 2/21/08 04:54 PM, valium9 wrote: The problem with communism, is that people are not made equal- some are smarter, more beautiful, than others.

Also- communism halts progress, people will only work if they are motivated.

I think the best approach is a merit based socialist system.

Seems good. But I disagree with your first point. Just because people aren't the SAME doesn't mean they aren't equal. Although some people are smarter (dependent on the field of study being addressed when being called 'smart') or more beautiful (which is based not only on perspective but also whether you're referring to outer or inner beauty) it doesn't make anyone more or less human.

But I do believe a socialist system would work better than a communist one. I used to be a communist for quite some time. But after studying how European politics have been improved by moderate socialist parties, I'd have to consider myself a Democratic Socialist. I still wear my commie hat though. It's warm. LOL.

Hasnt this subject been throughly talked about already?