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At 9/28/03 01:23 AM, BWS wrote: You choose what your Major is; they dont choose it for you. Also, trust me, Lawyers, Doctors, and Accountants are in fact creative thinkers. Im going to be a CPA and ill tell you that accounting is just a creative as it is analytical.

..yes we can think of lots of examples of accountants who ripped off shareholders or the tax system thru "creative accounting" for corporate clients.

My point is that the brain is MOST flexible from a younger age, so starting to learn a second language when you are teenager is too late. We are not immersed in the language so how does the brain switch over. Likewise, Law or Medicine has an entire language of their own. If Math needs 18 years just to learn the basics, then the Lawyer or Doctor or Accountant will need much more then 4 or 5 years to learn the basics of their chosen profession also. So why not let them start younger too? Maybe then, by the time they come to do their thesis, they will have covered the whole fielf of Medicine and Biology or Legal Statutes, to be more readily able to present something groundbreaking.

Yes you get to pick your Major. But does that help you to pick any details what you are taught? (the definition of a specialist) Do you get to choose whether the lecture hall will have 100's of students and only 1 lecturer? How does that help you think you are special - smart - original - or uniquely creative?

At 9/29/03 01:16 AM, Judge_Dredd wrote:

stuff about school...

Well, first of all, I have to say that I agree with you for the most part. The problem is that younger kids do not have the cognitive ability to actually study specific fields in a in depth way. Learning the basics serves a duel purpose: it allows the student to aquire a broad/general education as well as developing the neuro functions of the brain throughout. Young children do not poscess the mental capacity needed to study complex fields in an in depth way, and until they learn how to think this way, teaching the basics would be very time consuming and inefficient. (did I explain this well?)

At 9/29/03 12:54 AM, punk_disease wrote: People choose not to "learn" on their own because school is fucking lame.

Lame? Oh the horror! The horror!</sarcasm>

Why do you think there are things like sesame street and educational software?

Umm, because people want to make money off the fact that many American parents are too lazy and irresponsible to teach their 5-year-olds to read. Also because most people (not just kids) have too short an intention span to learn anything without flashing pictures and bright colors.

This is what we call over-reacting. IT'S A CALCULATOR, NOT THE TERMINATOR

Well I would much rather depend on an intelligent killing machine than on a piece of plastic that fits in the palm of my hand.

I'm assuming

don't

you're going into accounting or something of the sorts because I studied to become a translator, a psychologist and now a photographer (I know I can't make up my mind) and NOT ONCE did I need to use my math skills that were taught to me in high school.

No, I'm not going into accounting. To me, that would be the worst well-paying job. I don't like math, but I realize that it's necessary for schools to teach it. If you're not planning on using math in your career, don't take it. You're only required to take 3 years of math. That's enough to make sure that people have more options for a major if they decide to go to college. After three years, stop taking math and take photography classes.

At 9/29/03 05:10 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

If you're not planning on using math in your career, don't take it.

Well, unless you plan on going to college and having an anylitically based major. The reason being that most math classes before calculus do not transfer. Take them for free while youre in high school. Just an FYI.

Also, about Seaseme Street: its intended for young children to help develop cognitive growth. Yes, the parents can do this, but for young children, who inherently have an extremely short attention span, its a good way to incorporate learning with entertainment.

I think that this thread is becoming a bit redundant; how's about we try and streamline these arguments? (I know, I go off on tangents too=p)

(did I explain this well?)

yes, very well.
We can probably agree that young kids (4-10) should be given the opportunity to become multi-lingual (before the neural pathways become too established) and give adolecent kid (10-16) more courses specifically tailored towards their chosen profession -but allowing them to change if need be.
I personally knew what i wanted to do careerwise when i was 9 or 10. I'd like to see some stats on any correlation between when a child decides their prefered occupation and whether they do get work in that field, and whether they would have changed their minds if given a second chance? This is essential info which is easy to gather (except NG doesn't have polling) and would go a long way to adapting our school systems which are overly focused on facts than job prospects.

Maybe this makes me sound like an advocate of corporate enslavement, but this is only because the corporate world offers more "hands-on" practical knowledge than most schools with lots of theory without useful application.

At 9/29/03 05:20 PM, BWS wrote:

At 9/29/03 05:10 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

If you're not planning on using math in your career, don't take it.

Well, unless you plan on going to college and having an anylitically based major. The reason being that most math classes before calculus do not transfer. Take them for free while youre in high school. Just an FYI.

Just calculus? Damn, man, our system does quite a bit more than that. Well, we do have to pad it out as we start at four, rather than seven, so that's three years of Geometry etc.

Also, about Seaseme Street: its intended for young children to help develop cognitive growth. Yes, the parents can do this, but for young children, who inherently have an extremely short attention span, its a good way to incorporate learning with entertainment.

You don't think there's a link between using TV for education and ADD perchance?

Come on, what do you really learn from Sesame Street? They use, like, one letter and one number a DAY - that's Remedial Class. Yes, fine, take it slow and so forth, but there's slow and there's slow. Besides, the whole "Edutainment" issue doesn't work - kids get bored as it's not entertaining enough, and aren't learning from it.

I think that this thread is becoming a bit redundant; how's about we try and streamline these arguments? (I know, I go off on tangents too=p)

Why hasn't anyone (except me, twice) pointed out the fact School Ain't Shit?

You aren't learning at school, you're being told what to think. All it is is mere Information Recollection, which you splat down on your exam papers by ticking the right box or using the right one-word answer, and expect to get on in life from that? And, as I know from experience, you get marked down for deviating from the strict lines of The Curriculum. Frankly, teachers just want their students to sit down and shut up. Ask questions, deviate, use your brain = You Are Disruptive, and you're singled out for shit and bumped down the groups for your trouble.

So, how is this going to prepare you for University, exactly? The British System (which kicks ass, naturally) has GCSE level (High School), but inbetween there's College for A-Levels before going on to Uni, and that prepares you for the horrors of doing some goddamn work by yourself (which explains why most of the pricks I went to school with don't mention their A-Level results - strange that).

OK, that was the system, but Tony Blair had a great idea to fuck it all up, so college students are overworked and dropping out as they have to take too many modules. For me (up to 1999) it was three courses of your choice over two years. Now it's something like six AS Level units (count as half an A-Level) in the Lower Sixth, and three in the Upper Sixth. That won't burn you out at all, of course.

The point? Blair's fucking us.

At 9/30/03 10:29 AM, D2KVirus wrote:
Why hasn't anyone (except me, twice) pointed out the fact School Ain't Shit?

That really depends on what your definition of school is for this topic. Do you mean Elementary School, High School, College, Grad School, or all of them combined? This is a very broad statement.

You aren't learning at school, you're being told what to think.

Well, that too depends on which level of school youre talking about.

At 10/1/03 03:13 PM, BWS wrote:

At 9/30/03 10:29 AM, D2KVirus wrote:
Why hasn't anyone (except me, twice) pointed out the fact School Ain't Shit?

That really depends on what your definition of school is for this topic. Do you mean Elementary School, High School, College, Grad School, or all of them combined? This is a very broad statement.

So the fact I stated in a rather clear manner you don't learn anything until you leave the place went over your head? It says it there in black and white - all that School level education is relies on ticking the correct box, not interpreting the information for use, therefore not actually educating you, you just learn what to do so you get a pat on the head.

You aren't learning at school, you're being told what to think.

Well, that too depends on which level of school youre talking about.

As above. Christ, are you reading my posts, or just trying to up your batting average?

Don't fuck with me when I'm recovering from five days of breathing nothing but freon, I get very, very snipey...

At 10/2/03 11:03 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 10/1/03 03:13 PM, BWS wrote:

At 9/30/03 10:29 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

That really depends on what your definition of school is for this topic. Do you mean Elementary School, High School, College, Grad School, or all of them combined? This is a very broad statement.

So the fact I stated in a rather clear manner you don't learn anything until you leave the place went over your head? It says it there in black and white - all that School level education is relies on ticking the correct box, not interpreting the information for use, therefore not actually educating you, you just learn what to do so you get a pat on the head.

Well, if youre speaking from experience, youve either not went to college, or youve went to a bad one. Once you get into your major, and begin those classes, its a whole different ball game. Your statement must be from experience, correct? Otherwise, youre making quite an assumption.

Well, that too depends on which level of school youre talking about.

As above. Christ, are you reading my posts, or just trying to up your batting average?

Yes. No.

Don't fuck with me when I'm recovering from five days of breathing nothing but freon, I get very, very snipey...

Im not forcing you to post here. Also, its seems like youre in a pissy mood most of the time anyways. Whatever, this is a whole thing altogether that I really could care less about.

At 10/2/03 12:53 PM, BWS wrote:

At 10/2/03 11:03 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 10/1/03 03:13 PM, BWS wrote:

At 9/30/03 10:29 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

That really depends on what your definition of school is for this topic. Do you mean Elementary School, High School, College, Grad School, or all of them combined? This is a very broad statement.

So the fact I stated in a rather clear manner you don't learn anything until you leave the place went over your head? It says it there in black and white - all that School level education is relies on ticking the correct box, not interpreting the information for use, therefore not actually educating you, you just learn what to do so you get a pat on the head.

Well, if youre speaking from experience, youve either not went to college, or youve went to a bad one. Once you get into your major, and begin those classes, its a whole different ball game. Your statement must be from experience, correct? Otherwise, youre making quite an assumption.

Let's see, what experience do I have?

Well, I went through Secondary School, went through college, and went through University up to MA level. Good enough?

It's a well known, and get your dictionary, fact that the Secondary/High School level isn't remotely involved with actual processing of information or, let's be frank, education - it's information retrieval. After all, how many people do you know did pretty well at their SATs, and promptly flunked out of College? And, for a kicker, vice versa?

Yes, my statment does come from experience. At secondary school, I was getting marked down for stuff that wasn't on the curriculum (even though it was relevant, factual, and other things that get you marked down for), and was labelled "disruptive" for going against the grain by actually having this scary thing known in some underground communities as "an opinion of my own." It isn't encouraged at that level, which is why GCSEs in this country are only used as a marker as to whether you work the counter, or the grill. The same goes for SATs - anyone that goes through Uni doesn't include their GCSEs/SATs on their CV, as they're meningless at that point. After all, who cares how well you did at PE, RE, CDT and HE?

Now, do I have to use annotated bulletpoints, or should I just address all further correspondence to a brick wall of some description?

Well, that too depends on which level of school youre talking about.

As above. Christ, are you reading my posts, or just trying to up your batting average?

Yes. No.

In the correct order, please.

Don't fuck with me when I'm recovering from five days of breathing nothing but freon, I get very, very snipey...

Im not forcing you to post here. Also, its seems like youre in a pissy mood most of the time anyways. Whatever, this is a whole thing altogether that I really could care less about.

Nothing to do with the fact my sleep patterns are shit, and you're screwing with my mood clearly not reading my posts, and you just chose a real bad time to do it.

I take it you're still at High School? It's pretty clear that the information isn't quite filtering through, hence I have to dumb myself down each and every day.

At 10/3/03 11:19 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 10/2/03 12:53 PM, BWS wrote:

At 10/2/03 11:03 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 10/1/03 03:13 PM, BWS wrote:

At 9/30/03 10:29 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

It's a well known, and get your dictionary, fact that the Secondary/High School level isn't remotely involved with actual processing of information or, let's be frank, education - it's information retrieval. After all, how many people do you know did pretty well at their SATs, and promptly flunked out of College? And, for a kicker, vice versa?

Well, then I agree. I got expelled from High School and now I go to The University of Michigan. I agree on this; if you were saying this about College, I wouldnt, and thats why I asked you.

Now, do I have to use annotated bulletpoints, or should I just address all further correspondence to a brick wall of some description?

Oh hush. You dont have to get pissy about someone who asks you to explain yourself because remember, in this forum its something that isnt abnormal.

As above. Christ, are you reading my posts, or just trying to up your batting average?

Yes. No.

In the correct order, please.

Huh? Yes, Im reading your posts; no, im not trying to up my batting average (which has nothing to do with the BBS).

I take it you're still at High School? It's pretty clear that the information isn't quite filtering through, hence I have to dumb myself down each and every day.

Bad assumption bro. I go to one of the best schools in the USA. If you read my sig, youll see that im an honor student there as well. Now, im done with this because my question has been answered. Its ironic that you get frustrated and immature about me asking you a simple question, and then you assume that Im still in High School. Look, if you dont like people asking about your line of thought, dont post here, because its bound to happen...just a suggestion.

At 10/3/03 07:59 PM, BWS wrote:

At 10/3/03 11:19 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 10/2/03 12:53 PM, BWS wrote:

At 10/2/03 11:03 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

At 10/1/03 03:13 PM, BWS wrote:

At 9/30/03 10:29 AM, D2KVirus wrote:

It's a well known, and get your dictionary, fact that the Secondary/High School level isn't remotely involved with actual processing of information or, let's be frank, education - it's information retrieval. After all, how many people do you know did pretty well at their SATs, and promptly flunked out of College? And, for a kicker, vice versa?

Well, then I agree. I got expelled from High School and now I go to The University of Michigan. I agree on this; if you were saying this about College, I wouldnt, and thats why I asked you.

I said, EXPLICITLY, several times it was school that needed ignoring - just in general, actually.

Anyway, you're missing the difference between the UK and US systems. In the US, it goes Junior High, High School, College. In the UK, it goes Secondary School, College, University. The difference is that College is the make-or-break part between school and Uni, where you have to learn to, well, think. I did crap at school (too "disruptive" so bumped down...oh, and they thought I was dyslexic as my handwriting makes as much sense as the average doctor's - rational explanations always welcome, mostly involving league tables for funding).

Then again, the place I did my MA at was bad. That's why I threatened to sue the place...

Now, do I have to use annotated bulletpoints, or should I just address all further correspondence to a brick wall of some description?

Oh hush. You dont have to get pissy about someone who asks you to explain yourself because remember, in this forum its something that isnt abnormal.

It's post-traumatic stress, stemming from months of Jimswhine, usually asking for sources, then flaming when he got them. Or whatever other well appreciated tactics he employed to avoid the truth. See also: Commander K-25, AmericanBADASS, NEMISiSZ, ardshepherd..

I take it you're still at High School? It's pretty clear that the information isn't quite filtering through, hence I have to dumb myself down each and every day.

Bad assumption bro. I go to one of the best schools in the USA. If you read my sig, youll see that im an honor student there as well. Now, im done with this because my question has been answered. Its ironic that you get frustrated and immature about me asking you a simple question, and then you assume that Im still in High School. Look, if you dont like people asking about your line of thought, dont post here, because its bound to happen...just a suggestion.

No, when people get into brick wall mode, THAT'S frustrating. Stifling debate is for corrupt politicians and members of the Politics Crew when they get proven wrong.

A pleasent surprise: you didnt get upset and whatnot! Well, I see what youre saying. And Politics Crew Members being proven wrong...crazy talk! Utter insanity I tell ya!! So, thats that and this is the end.

At 10/4/03 10:07 AM, D2KVirus wrote: It's post-traumatic stress, stemming from months of Jimswhine, usually asking for sources, then flaming when he got them. Or whatever other well appreciated tactics he employed to avoid the truth. See also: Commander K-25, AmericanBADASS, NEMISiSZ, ardshepherd..

Amen to that Bro!!

At least with the Devil's Advocates we are left in some uncertainty about strongly held or opposing views. It takes rampant sarcasm to a whole new level..

*turns DAG light on*

F__k, like ALL hippy pacifists should be stood against the American flag and shot ..those lazy bast__ds!

*turns DAG lazer-sight on*

*aims at ardshepherd*

err, BWS.. u roxxorz!! *coughs* "TEH EDN!" *coughs*

i know i usually don't have much time to post on the board, but i have to disagree with having the 10-16 yr olds train just for their adult occupations. everyone would be going to school to be astronaunts and dinosaur hunters. the AVERAGE american goes through 3 major career changes in there lives, and most of the people i know have done more. that;s why college exists, so you always have somewhere to go back to and learn. further more, kids can still learn language at an older age, it will just take more work and it's best that children are trained to be biligual at a younger age. immersion is a great way to teach older people how to adopt a foreign language. they just have to try. your brain keeps creating new neural pathways until you DIE, anyone who has read a psychology book in the past five years would know that.

At 10/4/03 08:48 PM, Judge_Dredd wrote:

err, BWS.. u roxxorz!! *coughs* "TEH EDN!" *coughs*

Do I win the prize now? Now, being that this is the end, where do we begin?

At 10/4/03 10:07 AM, D2KVirus wrote: Stifling debate is for corrupt politicians and members of the Politics Crew when they get proven wrong.

L-A-M-E

At 10/5/03 03:53 AM, MagicalMusicalShrike wrote:

At 10/4/03 10:07 AM, D2KVirus wrote: Stifling debate is for corrupt politicians and members of the Politics Crew when they get proven wrong.

L-A-M-E

Yeah, it is. Jeez, don't dangle a carrot or anything...

Now, to branch out, reading the papers (OK, The Daily Mail - who else?), I keep hearing about this "Yob Culture" among the truants who are all people of a non-white (or Chinese) origin, in the 14-16 age group, especially in the inner cities. Hey, PC always sugarcoats crap like this, OK?

OK, admit they're mouthy little pricks, but usually a rather swift word when they're dumb enough to get into earshot sorts them out, and they're basically harmless. Annoying, yes, but still...

However, in the past couple of months, I have noticed there is a disruptive, angry, potentially violent subculture that kicks off as soon as they aren't getting anything the way they want it ASAMFP, especially on trains. They rant when the train is stopped for more than two minutes outside a station, they even go as far to try and force the door open, and seethe when they're queuing for tickets when the machine is broken, causing much grievance with the staff, and fellow passengers.

The thing is, they're all Pensioners, not teenagers. So where is the panicked coverage of this phenomenon? Don't ask me, only pensioners seem to write to The Daily Mail, and it's oo difficult to see through an age-old stereotype dating back to the 1950s...

At 10/6/03 10:43 AM, D2KVirus wrote: I have noticed there is a disruptive, angry, potentially violent subculture that kicks off as soon as they aren't getting anything the way they want it..
The thing is, they're all Pensioners, not teenagers. So where is the panicked coverage of this phenomenon?

This has occured me too.
Not that there's a growing army of elderly about to take over the world, but that polititians and "upstanding members of society" -almost without exception- have been very unrepresentative of youth or youth issues. Meaning; THEY ARE ALL OLD. THEY ALREADY RUN THE WORLD!!

It then strikes me as if these old farts (the worlds decision makers!) are very earnest when it comes to the education and technical skills of the very young, almost as if they are relying on the bright-young generation to complete their scientific jigsaw puzzle as soon as possible, offering them a viable form of medical immortality.
Specifically, the focus is on medical breakthru that most benefit the rich, old, and powerful. Concerns of the young (those that will inherit the real problems of today) or the poor of the wider world (thus underfunded in corporate research) are then merely labelled as "problematic elements of society resulting from a lack of education"

.

At 10/6/03 10:43 AM, D2KVirus wrote: Hey, PC always sugarcoats crap like this, OK?

Unless you're referring to Politically Correct, I can't begin to express how wrong that statement was.

At 10/7/03 01:56 AM, TheShrike wrote:

At 10/6/03 10:43 AM, D2KVirus wrote: Hey, PC always sugarcoats crap like this, OK?

Unless you're referring to Politically Correct, I can't begin to express how wrong that statement was.

Well I was, but...

There is a differente school. called PAIDEIA and this is located in Spain .... here I will put anythng

"We neither believe nor participate in the official teaching being this state or indepeadent, and we flatly deny that is the only possible one to be. Opposed to this official teaching, we propose. The self managed school, free, based on the principle of responsible freedom and solidarity among equals"

<a>www.paideiaescuelalibre.org

Everytime I went to school,I'd get kicked out..Corporate enslavement