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"and in order to get in, they HAVE to have an acredited diploma of education and have taken certain standardized tests. And guess what? THOSE STANDARDIZED TESTS ARE STANDARDIZED BY THE GOVERNMENT."

your point? it's not like tests determine your education. and it's not like private school education is centered around standerdized tests..... at least mine wasn't

"I'll give you three guesses on who deteremines whether or not a school is acredited.
BTW, I had a friend who went to a non-acredited private school. Yes, she had to take her GED to get into college as well as an ACT."

but she got into college didn't she? you just made my point for me.

"Nice come back.... Wait, no nevermind. You bear the burden of proof, and besides, PD is FAMOUS for burying people in his sources."

i still don't even know what punk wants to know. is it that the majority of something i can't even remember is really small or the existence of financial aid and scholarships?

"Wait, but the "truth" they already learned (according to Nirv) is that learning only takes place in school..."

well learning doesn't only take place in school. what keeps you up to date with current events? the news. where can you learn whatever the hell you want to learn whenever you want to? the internet.

"This is turning into a clusterfuck.... Maybe I should switch sides...."

in order to switch sides you must shave your head, wear robes, sacrifice animals, and give me all rights to your soul and your kidneys

At 9/23/03 04:09 PM, gerbilfromhellll wrote: because they applied and got in

so hey got in even though they didn't learn what they were supposed to?

where's yours? (and are you trying to say that there's no such thing as financial aid or scholarships)

Prove or retract that it is the majority of students who go to private schools.

if they get the REAL truth shoved in their face (via the internet or the news, depending on what channel they watch), many people WILL want to seek out the real truth. not all of them, but many of them

Sweet tapdancing christ, if if's and but's were candy and nuts then we'd all have a Merry Christmas.
The REAL truth isn't shoved in anyone's face, propaganda is. hence the verb "propagate"

i took that course at my 7'th grade, except without the '101'

you do realize that critical thinking can't be taught but must be learn on our own? That's the very definition of critical thinking.

I told myself I'd let this topic die, but I just had to respond to this.

At 9/24/03 12:17 AM, punk_disease wrote: you do realize that critical thinking can't be taught but must be learn on our own? That's the very definition of critical thinking.

Your main arguement against school was that it doesn't teach critical thinking. Now you're saying that critical thinking can only be learned on your own, and therefore, not in school. Your arguement is dead, and it's about damn time.

As you so helpfully pointed out, school has no effect on ones critical thinking ability as people learn or don't learn this skill all on their own. Even if schools were giant propaganda machines, which they're not, critical thinkers would still see through the bullshit. And idiots would still follow and horribly misinterprit even the best teaching. Education is necessary and mandatory. If you don't like it, TOUGH.

At 9/24/03 03:34 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

Your main arguement against school was that it doesn't teach critical thinking. Now you're saying that critical thinking can only be learned on your own, and therefore, not in school. Your arguement is dead, and it's about damn time.

You're twisting my words around, I said that schools teach everything that is the binary opposite of critical thinking. (i.e. math and economy)

At 9/24/03 03:34 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

Education is necessary and mandatory. If you don't like it, TOUGH!

what you mean is; One size fits all!
Exactly what's wrong with State Education. They spend the first 18 years trying to make a pack of like minded clones; Same curriculum, same tests, same projects and homework and essay topics. Then they spend the next five years trying to make us "Specialists" (ie. even more narrow minded!) ...highly astute in 1 field of research. Just what we need to survive the real world?! NOT!

I'll never forget my best highschool assignment; we were asked to write a piece of science fiction (no restrictions) so i wrote one of my best pieces of creative text up until that point.
We had a substitute teacher, and read our essays to the class. Mine was "way out there" about a hobo who slipped into another dimension where he met a Devil figure who tried to explain something of the worlds and images and concepts outside of our narrow reality. When the hobo "awoke" from this dimension-slip, he noticed physical evidence that it hadn't been just a dream!

I got a C- because the teacher said "it wasn't set in teh future"

>:(

"knowledge dispels fear!"
yeah, I hear you loud and clear,
just take note of where it's from.
a reliable source? or educated by force
in this hidden curriculum?

obey all day and back from lunch by one.
you can't reverse the damage done.
Your knowledge is a bullet in their gun.
they've taught you well,
destroyed every last brain cell with their methods,
10 on 1.

little man,
here's your number,
here's your plan
to serve the hidden curriculum
I'm dumb.

Punk, your crazy. But that's what I like about you. You come up with the weirdest shit. Yes, you are kinda on the money though.

And I'm not even drunk yet.

A C- thats insane, science fiction doesnt have to be set in the future, Star Wars is set in the past. However I feel the ciriculum atleast where I am is fairly good. They want to give everyone a balance of education, simple math, literacy skills basic knowledge of the world around you and stuff like that. This is how you learn what you like and what you dont. This skills as stupid as they may seem (I will admit when will I ever need to find the locus of a elipse) are geared to broden you horizon and to try and best suit everyones needs. And if we didnt specialize in something in university what would be the point to teach everyone everything? It would be a waste of time and money. Train one to be a doctor, one an engineer etc and save time and money.

At 9/24/03 08:38 PM, punk_disease wrote: I said that schools teach everything that is the binary opposite of critical thinking. (i.e. math and economy)

I think I might want in on this; I havent read this thread though. What exactly do you mean by this comment?

At 9/25/03 11:04 PM, BWS wrote: What exactly do you mean by this comment?

Well in math, there's only one corect way to solve a math problem, 1+1=2. It's a linear way of thinking.

When you head is filled with rules and formulas how can you think critically and see the world for what it really is?

After all, who the hell decided that there are only 2 sides to a story? Our preconceived notions hold us back from seeking the truth in any matter.

Of course, there's the whole learning environment which is another issue, not to mention the actual content of what is considered as essential education.

At 9/26/03 06:46 PM, punk_disease wrote:

At 9/25/03 11:04 PM, BWS wrote: What exactly do you mean by this comment?

Well in math, there's only one corect way to solve a math problem, 1+1=2. It's a linear way of thinking.

I wish I had those classes again. This is a very primitive example. I know what youre trying to say though. I will say though, analytical thinking and creative thinking are different things and each has its uses.

When you head is filled with rules and formulas how can you think critically and see the world for what it really is?

When youre very creative, and think about things for each side, how will you ever be able to analyze a complex problem? This is the inverse of what you said.

After all, who the hell decided that there are only 2 sides to a story? Our preconceived notions hold us back from seeking the truth in any matter.

Thats just a saying. And I dont really know what you mean by this; what purpose does this have? People want to know the truth and that really doesnt have a relation to how many sides of the story there are.

Of course, there's the whole learning environment which is another issue, not to mention the actual content of what is considered as essential education.

What do you mean by this? What level schooling are you talking about?

At 9/27/03 05:41 PM, BWS wrote: When youre very creative, and think about things for each side, how will you ever be able to analyze a complex problem? This is the inverse of what you said.

I never said creative, I said critical, math is linear thinking.

Thats just a saying. And I dont really know what you mean by this; what purpose does this have? People want to know the truth and that really doesnt have a relation to how many sides of the story there are.

Yes it does, because people were taught to think in a black and white manner. Yes or no, evil or good, with us or against us, 2 sides to a story. The truth may not be as black or white as one might think.

What do you mean by this? What level schooling are you talking about?

NO TALKING IN CLASS! NO CHEWING GUM IN CLASS! TAKE THAT HAT OFF! PAY ATTENTION! That kind of learning environment where productivity is the only thing that matters.

hey, sweet script punk_d!!

At 9/25/03 10:01 PM, RugbyMacDaddy wrote: They want to give everyone a balance of education, simple math, literacy skills basic knowledge of the world around you. This is how you learn what you like and what you dont.

fair enough, but it doesn't take some 18 years to learn the basics.

And if we didnt specialize in something in university what would be the point to teach everyone everything? Train one to be a doctor, one an engineer etc and save time and money.

you have apparently fallen for my trap :)

..why is it that we don't know what we want to be until we enter University? What happens that sparks our imagination when we are FINALLY given a choice of our own career? Moreover, do we make a good decision when we enter University, or do we follow the crowd or our friends? AND MORE IMPORTANTLY.. Where was our desire to be a specialist when we were young??
You hear it all the time; "i knew wanted to be a fireman since i was a kid" ..ok, so how does 20 odd years of schooling in generalized math and english and history make you a better fireman?

Specifically, where is the oportunity to become a specialist when we are much younger and showing great promise in 1 particular field of interest?

Let's say I wanted to be a SCI-FI writer from childhood. Anyone could argue "oh well, you can do that in your own spare time - afterschool!!" ...but that's like saying "work in society doing whatever job you have to do until you make it as a writer" ..it shows that our career choice has no place in our school curriculum. Which shows that "curriculum vitae" is not something we need to understand until we're leaving University. It also shows that Universities are great at pumping out Lawyers and Doctors and Accountants and not creative thinkers for obscure occupations.
And it leads to the case where successful writers (or whoever) when finally interviewed on TV often say "well, i was dissuaded by 1 teacher (or my father or mother) from my prefered profession. I didn't sell my first novel 'til i was late 30's or early 40's"

Give young ppl more choice over their career plans, even if they go and change their minds in their teens. Least that way they won't have a mid-life crisis everytime they become "obsolescent" by technological advancement. They'll be much better prepared to realize "not getting what you want" or "not wanting what you thought you wanted" is par for the course!!

At 9/28/03 12:25 AM, punk_disease wrote:

At 9/27/03 05:41 PM, BWS wrote:

I never said creative, I said critical, math is linear thinking.

Well, what youre describing kind of is. There are two ways of thinking: analytically and creatively (ex: sciences, arts). I agree with you because inteligence is fueled by the direct relation of the two with one another.

People want to know the truth and that really doesnt have a relation to how many sides of the story there are.

Yes it does, because people were taught to think in a black and white manner. Yes or no, evil or good, with us or against us, 2 sides to a story. The truth may not be as black or white as one might think.

But an intelligent person will persue the truth despite the number of views needed to reach the corrcect outcome. It seems that youre being a bit presumptious here; maybe you explained this earlier...I havent read much here at all.

NO TALKING IN CLASS! NO CHEWING GUM IN CLASS! TAKE THAT HAT OFF! PAY ATTENTION! That kind of learning environment where productivity is the only thing that matters.

Of course, thats High School. I agree with you here, I think. High School is ran in a very political manner despite what some will choose to believe. College/University level education is very unlike what youve just described.
I think that for the most part I agree with you.

At 9/28/03 01:12 AM, Judge_Dredd wrote:

It also shows that Universities are great at pumping out Lawyers and Doctors and Accountants and not creative thinkers for obscure occupations.

How do you figure? You choose what your Major is; they dont choose it for you. Also, trust me, Lawyers, Doctors, and Accountants are in fact creative thinkers. Im going to be a CPA and ill tell you that accounting is just a creative as it is analytical.

At 9/28/03 01:17 AM, BWS wrote: But an intelligent person will persue the truth despite the number of views needed to reach the corrcect outcome. It seems that youre being a bit presumptious here; maybe you explained this earlier...I havent read much here at all.

Yes, an intelligent person would do that. However, we're living in the TV-fed Pepsi Generation where fame is more important than ideas. The media didn't care that much about the California recall until Ahnold decided to jump in. Most people are content with believing what they'e told as long as it doesn't worry them.

Of course, thats High School. I agree with you here, I think. High School is ran in a very political manner despite what some will choose to believe. College/University level education is very unlike what youve just described.

Most importantly, that's also grade school. Children are raised in a strict and quasi-mechanical manner in school where you better follow all the rules or you won't go to recess.

I think that for the most part I agree with you.

whoa, having people agreeng with me is more fun than playin devil's advocate all the time.

Which reminds me of something.....

At 9/28/03 02:40 AM, punk_disease wrote: whoa, having people agreeng with me is more fun than playin devil's advocate all the time.

When have you ever played devil's advocate?

Now the important question: What's your solution? You've been argueing that school is evil because it forces kids to learn to count and makes them follow *gasp* rules. But what is your solution to the "problem"? Please describe, in detail, a better system.

too lazy. Read Judge Dredd's and Nirvana's posts in this thread.

At 9/28/03 03:01 AM, punk_disease wrote: too lazy. Read Judge Dredd's and Nirvana's posts in this thread.

I did. Abstract ideas don't answer my question.

there is no alternative to mandatory schooling that would work. in an idealistic mind, yes, alternatives would work, but that is the same kind of mind that thinks that there's actually a reasonable chance that there can be a working anarchistic world (dont' get me wrong, the world needs more idealists, but realisticly neither of those two will ever work). honestly, society cannot function without mandatory schooling

also, this topic states that school is CORPERATE enslavement, not government enslavement. however, most of your arguments have been about the governnment brainwashing us because there just isn't any corperate brainwashing in schools. government brainwashing? yes of course. but you've gotta take the good with the bad

At 9/28/03 03:21 AM, dudeitsallama wrote: I did. Abstract ideas don't answer my question.

mlah. I'll put it in simple terms. Instead of being educated we should be able to learn on our won. Dredd mentioned that it doesn't take 18 years to learn the basics. That is very true, especially with mathematics when you can just punch in numbers and formulas in a calculator instead of studying the same formulas for years and years and years.
And when was the last time you used algebra outside of school?

It's as simple as that, we should be able to learn instead of being indoctri-educated.

yes, but given the oppertunity to learn on their own, about 80% of kids will decide to do absolutly jackshit. look, not that many people WANT to learn from birth. the only option is mandatory education, so that as many of those people as possible can have an at least semi-sucessful life (and i don't measure sucess solely on money. if you've got enough money to make yourself happy, then you've suceeded. but if you were too lazy to learn enough to get enough money to be truly happy, then you're a failure. the amount of money people need to make themselves happy varies, but if you don't have it then you've failed)

At 9/28/03 03:10 PM, gerbilfromhellll wrote: yes, but given the oppertunity to learn on their own, about 80% of kids will decide to do absolutly jackshit.

Where did you find this wonderful statistic?

At 9/28/03 03:16 PM, punk_disease wrote: Instead of being educated we should be able to learn on our won.

We can learn on our own. Most people just choose not to. Don't tell me that abolishing school will make those people want to learn because it won't.

Dredd mentioned that it doesn't take 18 years to learn the basics. That is very true, especially with mathematics when you can just punch in numbers and formulas in a calculator instead of studying the same formulas for years and years and years.

So we should just be dependent on machines to do everything for us? This is the kind of mindset that is slowly but surely leading to the downfall of western civilization. One massive computer failure and Americans won't be able to make correct change, let alone do anything productive.

And when was the last time you used algebra outside of school?

I'm 16. What the hell would I need algebra for outside of school? I'll use it outside of school when I finish college.

At 9/28/03 03:16 PM, punk_disease wrote:

At 9/28/03 03:10 PM, gerbilfromhellll wrote: yes, but given the oppertunity to learn on their own, about 80% of kids will decide to do absolutly jackshit.

Where did you find this wonderful statistic?

*sighs and rolls eyes*

look, it may not be a proven statistic, but look at america. how many kids actually WANT to learn what they NEED to learn? however, after they've grown up, MANY (not all, many) of them decide that all that learning was actually a good thing.

75% of all stats are made up on the spot. 14% of people know that.

At 9/28/03 02:58 PM, punk_disease wrote:

:That is very true, especially with mathematics when you can just punch in numbers and formulas in a calculator instead of studying the same formulas for years and years and years.
This is true for very basic math. Once you get into the real shit that is used to solve complex problems, you need to know how to analyze the problem so that you can solve it. Plugging the numbers into a calculator doesnt always do it, and once you get to in depth problems, the calculator will often give you the wrong answer. In order to program the calculator, you need to use calculus. Anyways, its not the way you describe. The math that is used to solve problems is applicable, not mechanical, and a good understanding is needed in order to arrive at the "plug and chug" step. Blah, just a lil FYI.

And when was the last time you used algebra outside of school?

Everyday; I use it for this pesky "job" thing that I often have to do. Crazy talk, I know! =p

At 9/28/03 03:42 PM, dudeitsallama wrote: We can learn on our own. Most people just choose not to. Don't tell me that abolishing school will make those people want to learn because it won't.

People choose not to "learn" on their own because school is fucking lame. Why do you think there are things like sesame street and educational software?

So we should just be dependent on machines to do everything for us? This is the kind of mindset that is slowly but surely leading to the downfall of western civilization. One massive computer failure and Americans won't be able to make correct change, let alone do anything productive.

This is what we call over-reacting. IT'S A CALCULATOR, NOT THE TERMINATOR

I'm 16. What the hell would I need algebra for outside of school? I'll use it outside of school when I finish college.

I'm assuming you're going into accounting or something of the sorts because I studied to become a translator, a psychologist and now a photographer (I know I can't make up my mind) and NOT ONCE did I need to use my math skills that were taught to me in high school.

Yeah, some jobs require some crazy-deep knowledge of math but most don't that's why I think it's impractical to train kids at a level of math that they probably won't need. Hell, I don't even remember how to measure the angles in a triangle or how to do algebra.

Math is evil, I don't remember it though. ^_^