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At 2/12/08 06:44 PM, NeillS wrote:

At 2/12/08 05:37 PM, VigilanteNighthawk wrote: Simple. Macs are just too expensive when you look at the power of the hardware. I was looking at Mac notebooks a few weeks ago, and they were charging over $1,000 for a notebook with just 1 gig of ram (couldn't tell if it was DDR2 or DDR3).

So RAM determines the price of everything? And just because its expensive and has little RAM its a retarded computer? Wow, your really computer literate. Teach me.

How about this? Why don't you actually bring up some points as to what makes Macs worth the money? I was bringing up the one feature I noticed. Macs tend to have less power spec wise for the cost associated with them when compared to PC hardware. The point is that 1 gig of ram is 1/3 of what you can get for a decent PC based laptop. Now, if you are doing anything that is memory intensive, such a video editing, you are quickly going to notice that much of a difference.

The only thing that really makes Macs worthwhile is the OS,

Because OS's don't mean shit, right?

The point I was trying to make was not that the OS wasn't important, but that once you look at how much an equivalently spec'ed PC costs, most of what you are left paying for is the OS itself, which would easily cost $400+ depending on the model. For the money, you could make up for a lot of Vista's deficiencies and even exceed what Mac OS is capable of with PC hardware of the same price.

Now, if you'd like to bring up actual facts to defend your point, we can continue. On the other hand, if you continue to behave like an immature troll (as you usually do), then this will be my last response to you in this thread.

At 2/12/08 06:44 PM, NeillS wrote: So RAM determines the price of everything?

No, and he didn't say it did determine everything. The point is these days RAM is cheaper and cheaper; a stock notebook you're going to buy for 1k should boast a little more than that I would think.

The basic gist of it is that while you might not always be using all that RAM or really need more, if you're going to shell out that kind of cash, you should technically get what you ask for beyond some aesthetics. Aesthetics are important, but to me, a shitty looking case and a copy of Linux would far outweigh a super-badass case and look (which, they are) with technically less powerful hardware, for the same price.

And just because its expensive and has little RAM its a retarded computer?

He never said it's a retarded computer. He never made any offensive remarks towards Macs at all; just why someone might not want to use one or why they might want to switch. Price point when you're looking for hardware is a factor. It's fact. If you need more bang for your buck, a Mac - or at least, a low key one - just might not be the option. You'd be better off looking at an alternative or building your own if you want to keep cost low but get what you ask for. But if you've got the cash and you really want one, go for it.

Is a mac a great desktop computer? Sure. I would buy one if I wanted a nice, user-friendly environment that boasts reliability (that's a benefit of locked-in hardware, I'll admit. Nobody likes dealing with shitty drivers and support) and good support.
If I wanted strictly a development machine, I would probably look elsewhere since I *would* be able to get more power, for less cash.

This is nothing but basic economics, as far as I'm concerned.

Wow, your really computer literate. Teach me.

The problem is you're so goddamn touchy and defensive about everything you have to fucking twist words to make any sense at all.

Nobody is going to take you seriously when you become such a tight-ass technology nazi all the time. It hasn't helped you or your arguments in the past either, in case you didn't realize.

Because OS's don't mean shit, right?

You - like usual - are just missing the point entirely.

Also, before you attempt to twist my words like you usually do in an effort to suit your inane views, note I don't have a problem with macs, I advocate them if you want a good desktop experience and if I had the money, I would buy one, because they're very nice and stable computers. I may be overpaying like noted, but then again, my personal want justifies this, and if you want one the same, you're justified in your purchase too. You just have to keep in mind the trade-off you're making.

But on that note of me getting one, I think we've just come full circle, haven't we?

At 2/12/08 07:28 PM, NeillS wrote: Bring one up that makes PC's worth the money and wasted time. You brought up no point. You just said macs were more expensive and all you got was 1 GB of ram. You can't base price off of this one spec alone.

Stop playing the circle-jerk game and playing dumb. The fact that they cost less is obviously a pro to just getting a stock PC. This is actually a major, major pro in their favor economically, and RAM isn't the only thing you'll be getting more of if you buy/build a PC (you can probably score a better processor, motherboard and graphics card as well.) The MacBook Air is definitely sexy, but the price point doesn't justify the design or the specs by any means, as far as I'm concerned.

You would know, right? Your definitely a regular visitor.

It doesn't take a regular visitor to point out trolling; only someone who is reasonably competent.

At 2/12/08 07:36 PM, NeillS wrote: I always seem to bring out the best in you. Its like you have to make a point to down me, but you know it wont work.

No, I guess it won't work. But that just comes down to not being able to change the mind of a fool when the fool is contempt with being one.

Its like your jealous or something, and for that, I dig you.

I do think, sometimes, living in bliss because I'm ignorant would be nice. So yeah, in that way, I guess I am jealous.

Then I wake up and smell the coffee.

I know I said I would ignore you, but hell, I just can't resist.

At 2/12/08 07:28 PM, NeillS wrote:

At 2/12/08 07:18 PM, VigilanteNighthawk wrote:

Bring one up that makes PC's worth the money and wasted time. You brought up no point. You just said macs were more expensive and all you got was 1 GB of ram. You can't base price off of this one spec alone.

No, you made a personal attack about my knowledge of computers. If you wanted to actually make a point about why Macs are worth the money, you could easily have brought up what hardware they were using and specs about that hardware that you believed made them worth what Apple charges. That is how you debate. Instead, as usual, you make snide remarks.

Actually, $400+ wont buy you the necessary drivers to run most of the Xp compatible products you had before upgrading to Vista.

Wow, I just trashed Vista, and your whole point. That was GREAT!

No, you didn't trash anything. If you buy a NEW computer, which is what we are talking about here, then all of that PC's included hardware will be supported. You then just have to be careful about what peripherals you buy. Now, is all of your XP compatible hardware also compatible with Leopard?

On the other hand, if you continue to behave like an immature troll (as you usually do),

You would know, right? Your definitely a regular visitor. Seriously, you said something, and I countered it. This is a DISCUSSION BOARD, and if you don't want my opinion, then don't give your own. Or just suck it up and realize that people can have their own opinion too.

In a debate, you bring up facts. If someone states an opinion, and you disagree, then you bring up facts to support your opinion. If you notice, I brought up the amount of ram the system I looked at had as a fact to support my opinion. That is a debate. By simple calling names and throwing out insults, you don't do anything to defend your point. You just make yourself look like an immature ass who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Now, I don't post here often, but I do check up on whats going on a few times a week at least. At least 50% of the time, your posts do nothing but make snide remarks with little helpful information, and many of the threads you post in turn into flame wars with you having lit the fire.

At 2/12/08 07:47 PM, VigilanteNighthawk wrote: I know I said I would ignore you, but hell, I just can't resist.

At 2/12/08 07:28 PM, NeillS wrote:

At 2/12/08 07:18 PM, VigilanteNighthawk wrote:

:Now, are all of your XP compatible hardware also compatible with Leopard?
fixed

Most major hardware, such as tablets, scanners, printers, and mice/keyboards are compatible with Leopard. I even found a driver that works with my cheapo no-name tablet. Besides, who says you have to buy RAM from Apple? Plenty of companies make Mac-compatible RAM, for much cheaper.

At 2/12/08 09:04 PM, Anim8or666 wrote: Most major hardware, such as tablets, scanners, printers, and mice/keyboards are compatible with Leopard. I even found a driver that works with my cheapo no-name tablet. Besides, who says you have to buy RAM from Apple? Plenty of companies make Mac-compatible RAM, for much cheaper.

Good to know I was wrong about the Mac drivers.

The only problem I have with that is that for the price, I don't think the hardware is worth it. That's not to say it's bad hardware, but I question whether the value is really is there for the money you spend to obtain it. I'm also not a fan of hardware locked or proprietary system. I won't buy any Sony based computers for that reason. If I could run OSX on PC hardware legally, I would do so over windows in a heartbeat.

As for upgrading the RAM, will this void the warranty on your Mac? I'm guessing it would.

At 2/12/08 09:53 PM, VigilanteNighthawk wrote: stuff about OS X

I could probably get away with using OSx86, but I don't want to on the pretense that it could potentially kill the stability that OS X is known for (since it's locked to the hardware, anyway,) and if I'm going to use OS X, I'd rather just buy a Macbook or something similar (I need a notebook anyway.)

I do remember browsing Apple's site and them having bargain macbooks (with just core duo's) for about $500 less, but I can't seem to find the link anymore...

Leopard 10.5.2 and Vista Ultimate on my Macbook Pro.

I ran Slack only for a few years a few years ago. Eventually I bought a game that wouldn't run under Wine, so I installed XP. Then I bought another game that took up too much HDD space, so I deleted my Linux partition and now am running XP only.

I'm getting more and more into the dev stuff and less into the games as time goes on (due to me quitting my job, more or less), and I'm REALLY starting to miss Linux in a few particular cases... so I'll probably figure out some way to get it going again pretty soon.

I'm pretty sure the RAM is user replaceable. I checked, and I found 2gb of RAM for the MacBook Pro, and it only costs $60.00. Just get a basic Mac, and mod it up with cheap parts.

At 2/12/08 05:12 AM, Rustygames wrote: I like to get things done so I just use the best OS.
(Windows XP Professional)

Heh Microsoft fanboy

I use XP and Leopard

iMacs aren't overpriced. Before I bought mine (last-gen white, the new ones are cheaper) I went to Dell's website and configured a PC with all the same shit the iMac has (monitor, camera, speakers, mic, etc.) and it came to about the same price. But, the PC is a huge tower with a bunch of cords tangled up everywhere 'n all that shit. The iMac is compact as hell and only has one cord you have to plug in. Most other all-in-one PCs suck shit (see the Gateway One) and are much more expensive than the iMac while less powerful.

Plus, it uses OS X (and any other OS if needed) and that's worth a few hundred extra to me. Comparing prices based only on the RAM is fucking retarded too. I agree Apple's RAM is way overpriced, but you can easily buy cheap third-party RAM and upgrade it yourself (doesn't void the warranty and isn't hard). It's ridiculous that so many complain about the base RAM being so low. There's absolutely no reason at all for it to be any higher than 1GB. The only thing that does is limit people's options, it's fucking retarded to raise it.

And while I'm posting this, I'ma complain about Apple flamers. Everybody says Apple fanboys are everywhere and always talk about how Apple is the greatest company ever. I very rarely see anybody do that (except on Apple forums sometimes). What I do see, everywhere (except on Apple forums sometimes), is that any time anybody says anything slightly positive about Apple or slightly negative about Microsoft, a ton of people have to start jumping in saying shit like "OMG APPLE FANBOY YOU FUCKING SUCK APPLE SUCKS OMG OMG YOU'RE FUCKING GAY IF YOU LIKE APPLE" (and "EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OWN OPINION" when somebody tries to counter it), which is much more annoying. Even on websites like Engadget when something's posted that has nothing to do with Apple there's often somebody that says "LOL I BET IF APPLE MADE IT IT'D COST TWICE AS MUCH AND YOU FUCKING FANBOYS WOULD BE BUYING IT LOL FUCK YOU APPLE SUCKS YOU'RE FUCKING GAY" 'n shit like that. It's pathetic.

Building a PC from scratch is gonna be much cheaper than anything else though. If I could use OS X on a PC (legally, without a bunch of bugs 'n shit) I'd probably do that.

Buying an all in one Mac is no doubt more expensive than a PC, if you are not using all it's hardware. iMacs have USB2, FireWire, Bluetooth, 80211n WiFi, a webcam, a dvd/cd burner, large hard drive, a fast dual core processor, plenty of RAM, audio in/out, etc etc etc. Plus OS X and iLife, the software.

Now, if you were self building a tower, you'd need your mobo, hdd, ram, cpu, etc etc. Would you add Bluetooth? FireWire? I know that I am paying for these features but 99% of the time I won't use Bluetooth, for example. But that doesn't mean I won't get an iMac just because it has Bluetooth.

Don't make the mistake of comparing a Mac to a PC without taking into account just what technology a Mac has on board. And I do reckon Apple make a healthy profit out of the hardware too - but look at what you get: The best designed hardware on the market, plenty of connectivity, the best operating system on the market, and a great suite of consumer media applications.

I'm not saying Macs are cheap; but when you are comparing prices, be fair.

I still don't get the design argument for Macs. They're overall bloody ugly, apart from the Mac Pros. I'd take a proper case over a Mac design any day.
The Macbook Pro I've used was hell to work with, keyboard included.
And how exactly would you suggest adding, say, a PCI card or two in the average Mac? Or even a new HD?

The only Macs worth considering are the Pros, because they look awesome and have decent hardware.

IMO.

At 2/13/08 02:44 PM, elbekko wrote: I still don't get the design argument for Macs. They're overall bloody ugly, apart from the Mac Pros.

It's taste isn't it. Just because I like the new iMac styling doesn't mean you have to.

That's what most Mac users seem to think tho. "I like it, and I MUST have good taste, so you suck."

At 2/13/08 02:56 PM, elbekko wrote: That's what most Mac users seem to think tho. "I like it, and I MUST have good taste, so you suck."

Check my above post. Have you honestly ever heard a Mac user say that? I haven't. But for every Apple fanboy post I see that fits the stereotype, there's twenty other people there to bash him and Apple consistently, when only one or two are needed. And there's another twenty doing the same in places where there isn't an Apple user in sight.

also,

At 2/12/08 05:04 PM, Anim8or666 wrote: Why switch from a good thing? I don't see anything wrong with OS X. I don't see why more people don't use Macs... especially the web designers

OS X is a good thing and I don't see anything wrong with it. But I haven't tried Linux yet (though I had LiteStep on Windows) so it could be better. Many people think Windows is a good thing and don't see anything wrong with it, so they don't try Macs. Maybe that's why more people don't use them?

Plenty of times. Do note that I don't limit my internet experience to Newgrounds, unlike some people.

At 2/13/08 03:31 PM, elbekko wrote: Plenty of times. Do note that I don't limit my internet experience to Newgrounds, unlike some people.

Indeed, I do limit my Internet experience to Newgrounds. That's why on average I post an entire once a week, and haven't voted on a submission or even viewed one in months. You're obviously just pulling shit out of your ass now. Fuck off.

Heyhey, I touched a string there without even adressing you :D

Main Desktop: Windows XP home( now screwed up but will be repaired soon )
laptop: windows 2000 pro

my trash pc's

desktop1: windows 98
desktop2: windows 95
laptop1: windows 95

and maybe i'll soon buy a mac. ( for web development etc. )

Yes, buying a Mac would be a good choice.

If you do buy a PC, however, try to avoid Dell.

At 2/13/08 02:36 PM, different wrote: Buying an all in one Mac is no doubt more expensive than a PC, if you are not using all it's hardware. iMacs have USB2, FireWire, Bluetooth, 80211n WiFi, a webcam, a dvd/cd burner, large hard drive, a fast dual core processor, plenty of RAM, audio in/out, etc etc etc. Plus OS X and iLife, the software.

With all due respect, I was just looking around on Apple's website, and from what I've seen you aren't getting plenty of anything. Now, I'll grant that they may be using the most advanced components, but I can't tell from that from what I've seen so far. From what I've been reading, on the lowest end iMac is about $1200. It has a 250 gig hard drive, a 2.0 Ghz core 2 duo, 1 gig of ram, and an ati hd video card with 128 mb onboard ram. While I grant that they may be using a DDR3 set up, I could still beat those specs easily with PC hardware, even on a self build. That is including a copy Vista (though I would probably put XP on it).

Now, if you were self building a tower, you'd need your mobo, hdd, ram, cpu, etc etc. Would you add Bluetooth? FireWire? I know that I am paying for these features but 99% of the time I won't use Bluetooth, for example. But that doesn't mean I won't get an iMac just because it has Bluetooth.

I will admit that Macs will work for many people, and for them they will provide value. The problem is that for me and many others, the price isn't worth what they are charging. I have no use for blue tooth. My web cam is a $30 logitec. Firewire cards are relatively cheap, and many prebuilt PC's even include them. For video editing, my top concerns are hard drive space, a decent video card, and on board memory. If you are editing video, you need as much RAM as you can throw at it, to the point. 1 gig isn't going to cut it for any sizable project. For compositing, the video card is going to handling a lot of the processing for real time previews. Similar concerns apply to animation and 3d development. On a PC, I can get more power out of these for the money. In fact, I can even easily add a second monitor if I wish for a bit more cash. As for iLife, while it is a good software suite, the functionality I would use, the video editor, isn't powerful enough for what I'm going to need it for.

Don't make the mistake of comparing a Mac to a PC without taking into account just what technology a Mac has on board. And I do reckon Apple make a healthy profit out of the hardware too - but look at what you get: The best designed hardware on the market, plenty of connectivity, the best operating system on the market, and a great suite of consumer media applications.

It may very well be the best hardware in the world, but I don't need the best. I need reliable and durable, and I also need hardware that is going to be able to perform the actions I need them to. For $1200, I can build a system that will easily handle what I need it to. With a mac, I don't get that. iLife doesn't matter to me if I end up using Adobe products to provide the same type of functionality. What matters to me is having enough ram that I don't need to use swap to edit videos. I'm not saying Macs aren't valuable for some people, but for many people they aren't economical.

Sorry for the double post, but I just saw this.

At 2/13/08 03:16 PM, That-Is-Bull wrote:

At 2/12/08 05:04 PM, Anim8or666 wrote: Why switch from a good thing? I don't see anything wrong with OS X. I don't see why more people don't use Macs... especially the web designers

OS X is a good thing and I don't see anything wrong with it. But I haven't tried Linux yet (though I had LiteStep on Windows) so it could be better. Many people think Windows is a good thing and don't see anything wrong with it, so they don't try Macs. Maybe that's why more people don't use them?

I'll be perfectly honest. I love linux, but its going to lack some functionality that many people may be expecting. There is very little commeicial software available for it. If you need to create flash animations, forget it. You can write flash RIA's with flex, but there is no animation suite. Also, while installing and configuring new hardware and software has gotten a lot easier, there are still times when you have to either drop into the command line or edit a text file whereas OSX/Windows will provide a gui. Video and animation tools (with the notable exception being blender), are for the most part lacking in polish and functionality.

On the other hand, Linux does have a lot of advantages as well. Linux has a lot of good open source packages that will accomplish what you need. It has a lot of very good development tools. If you want to develop for php, it is the platform to develop on. You are left with an infinite variety of ways to configure your system. You can switch out your gui if you want. Each window manager has various options that can affect perfomance and workflow. I've found I'm most organized using fluxbox, which is very minimalist but provides multiple desktops and tabbing of applications together. You can even set up your system for clustering if you know what you are doing.

Here is my take: If you want an easy to use, stable *nix system that can run commercial software, then stick with OSX. If you want a stable system that is infinitely configurable but requires a bit of knowledge and planning, go with linux. Fortunately, on Mac, you can have both.

You forgot the part about Mac running Vista, XP, etc. ;)

I dual boot Vista for games and Debian for the other 95%. Debian goes as fast as hell!

At 2/13/08 05:28 PM, Relish wrote: You forgot the part about Mac running Vista, XP, etc. ;)

Vista/XP are not designed for Mac Hardware.