A 3.1 trillion budget bill.

[ForcedDj]

WTF?

Yes, its on cnn. The economy is going south, and he wants to spend 3 trillion dollars? This will give the US huge deficits, and guess what, 2 cuts are for Medicare and Medicaid, and Education(frozen if this bill gets passed). Does Bush want the US to become a 3rd World Country?

[cellardoor6]

Just to put something in perspective.

$3 trillion budget... and the US is projected to have a GDP of $14.3 trillion for 2008.

So we'd be spending only a bit more than 1/5th of total national output. We're not going to be turning our country into a 3rd world country. The issue here is government budget deficits, not national or public debts.

[Brick-top]

Do you want me to chip in or something?

[reviewer-general]

What kind of asshole cuts education?

;

[RommelTJ]

At 2/4/08 07:24 PM, reviewer-general wrote: What kind of asshole cuts education?

Someone who obviously didn't learn anything.

[JudgeDredd]

At 2/4/08 06:51 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: The issue here is government budget deficits, not national or public debts.

^DUH!

Government budget deficits make national public debt..

"The United States total PUBLIC DEBT, commonly called the national debt, or U.S. GOVERNMENT DEBT, is the amount of money owed by the United States federal government to creditors.." {sauce}

.

[SmilezRoyale]

I loved on Faux Noise when one of the Anchors did the doctor evil thing with the pinkie when he said 3.1 trillion dollars.

[Imperator]

Wait wait.....

Then: "We need to promote science and math".

Now: "We're cutting education"......

The FUCK?

"President Bush introduced a $3.1 trillion budget on Monday that supports sizable increases in military spending to fight the war on terrorism"

" Even with those savings, Bush projects that the deficits, which had been declining, will soar to near-record levels, hitting $410 billion this year and $407 billion in 2009. "

THE FUCK?

HEALTH: Health and Human Services Department funding would be cut by $2 billion, amounting to a 3 percent reduction

HOMELAND SECURITY: Overall, the budget for homeland security programs will increase by almost 11 percent

WHAT THE FUCK!

Guess the message he wants for America is "You better work in the military field, otherwise you're out of a job and out of health benefits".

[JudgeDredd]

At 2/4/08 08:53 PM, Imperator wrote: Guess the message he wants for America is "You better work in the military field, otherwise you're out of a job and out of health benefits".

Sure, one gets the feeling it's moved past lining one's military pockets with gold shielding, and headed into the realm of imminent survival readiness planning ...like when the end of civilization is nearing, education won't save any of us, only military spending will.

Perhaps on some supercomputer under some mountain the boffins with their lead retractable pencils have finally calculated with some certainty that an end of the world climatic starvation civil collapse scenario is looming. The WOT has a new foe.. Civil Chaos Theory!

.

[Der-Lowe]

Actually, expansive fiscal policies (that is, to increase spending and to reduce taxes) are the way to go during recessions, they generally complement expansive monetary policies (low interest rates, what the Fed has been doing), although they are not as effective. I don't know what's gonna happen with inflation, and I have been surprised at how this is being handled, nobody cares about inflation, whereas during the 80s, the Fed focused on inflation, causing (or rather worsening) the international crisis.
But well we'll see what happens.

Therefore an increase in spending and a decline in taxes IS correct, yet I disagree on the implementation. As Imperator accurately said: "WTF". And I somewhat agree with the Topic Starter in his mention of the Third World, this is precisely how unintelligent governments deal with this: Raising Expenses for Defense, and lowering taxes for the wealthiest, the point in taxes is not only finance the expenses of the state, but to redistribute wealth. It reminds me when the Paraguayan senate approved tax cuts for the imports of luxury cars.

[Memorize]

Since the American Public Education system is an abismal failure anyway, I honestly don't care.

People should be focused more on history and economics than math and science.

[cellardoor6]

At 2/4/08 08:43 PM, JudgeDredd wrote:

At 2/4/08 06:51 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: The issue here is government budget deficits, not national or public debts.

^DUH!

Government budget deficits make national public debt..

"The United States total PUBLIC DEBT, commonly called the national debt, or U.S. GOVERNMENT DEBT, is the amount of money owed by the United States federal government to creditors.." {sauce}

.

A recently edited wikipedia article.

Nice try.

Public debt

vs.

External debt... which (according to the unedited portion of the wikipedia article) is tied into the government debt:

Government debt can be categorized as internal debt, owed to lenders within the country, and external debt, owed to foreign lenders.

2 different things.

The budget deficit, as in what the government is spending more so than they are taking in, does not directly represent the debt of the country as a whole, especially considering how small it is in proportion to our income in comparison to other countries who no one would say is notably in debt...

[cellardoor6]

At 2/4/08 09:44 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: The budget deficit, as in what the government is spending more so than they are taking in, does not directly represent the debt of the country as a whole

*does not represent the relative debt*

[Memorize]

I just heared that medicaid will still receive a growth of 5%.

So... what is the big deal with that one?

[JudgeDredd]

At 2/4/08 09:32 PM, Der-Lowe wrote: nobody cares about inflation..

Ironically, inflation is currently becoming a serious issue in countries with strong economies. Worldwide inflation is starting to bite. Here in south-pacific government-led interest rates are hitting 10% in an effort to drive inflation down. In China and India the governments are using intervention and subsidy to try to limit inflation.

If inflation does become a problem in US (yes, inflation can run away even during recession) then it's gonna take a truely massive swing of US monetary policy to combat it. Infact, it's the exact opposite of Bush's long-standing "stimulus or die" packages. It seems highly doubtful that you could possibly steer an economy of America's size thru such a reversal of direction without considerable casualties.

Best not to think about it.

[Der-Lowe]

At 2/4/08 10:06 PM, JudgeDredd wrote:

At 2/4/08 09:32 PM, Der-Lowe wrote: nobody cares about inflation..

Ironically, inflation is currently becoming a serious issue in countries with strong economies.

Everywhere, actually, people call it ag-flation now, because it is caused by the rise in the agricultural goods, which sucks, because it hits the poor people harder than anybody.

Worldwide inflation is starting to bite. Here in south-pacific government-led interest rates are hitting 10% in an effort to drive inflation down. In China and India the governments are using intervention and subsidy to try to limit inflation.

Yes, that's why the ECB and the Bank of England have been reluctant to lower interest rates, inflation is around the corner. And that is why Benanke is being criticized by some, it is believed that he is feeding the next bubble, like Greenspan did.

If inflation does become a problem in US (yes, inflation can run away even during recession) then it's gonna take a truely massive swing of US monetary policy to combat it.

It will have to cause the recession that it is avoiding now. That will be quite nasty; let's hope China is stronger by then, so it can lighten the impact.

Infact, it's the exact opposite of Bush's long-standing "stimulus or die" packages. It seems highly doubtful that you could possibly steer an economy of America's size thru such a reversal of direction without considerable casualties.

Best not to think about it.

It is quite scary.

[Der-Lowe]

At 2/4/08 09:44 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Public debt

Thanks for the link! It brings a new perspective.

Also, damn Chileans.

[Memorize]

At 2/4/08 09:44 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

The budget deficit, as in what the government is spending more so than they are taking in, does not directly represent the debt of the country as a whole, especially considering how small it is in proportion to our income in comparison to other countries who no one would say is notably in debt...

Example.

UK

External Debt: $10 Trillion (according to CIAFact Book)
GDP: $4 trillion

US

External Debt: $12 Trillion
GDP: $14 Trillion

[JudgeDredd]

At 2/4/08 09:44 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: A recently edited wikipedia article.

Nice try.

Haha. Yeah, like there's nothing more suspect than quoting Govt. debt figure from CIA fact-sheet.

Seperating INTERNAL GOVT DEBT from EXTERNAL GOVT DEBT just to re-calculate TOTAL GOVT DEBT is the biggest CON on the planet!

Haven't you heard of 1st lender, 2nd lender, 3rd lender? Just because US Govt figures show they are choosing 'US creditors' for their 1st point of borrowing, doesn't mean the money still isn't sourced from overseas, or somehow magically doesn't count as public debt.

Even by your own calculation, upto a FIFTH of the economy you are measuring is STIMULUS at the cost of DEBT. But regardless of how you spin it, the US Govt Debt to GDP ratio is 9.2 Trillion / 14.3 Trillion, or nearly 66% of GDP.

[cellardoor6]

At 2/4/08 10:52 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 2/4/08 09:44 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

The budget deficit, as in what the government is spending more so than they are taking in, does not directly represent the debt of the country as a whole, especially considering how small it is in proportion to our income in comparison to other countries who no one would say is notably in debt...

Example.

UK

External Debt: $10 Trillion (according to CIAFact Book)
GDP: $4 trillion

I think their GDP is less than that, but yeah their external debt is many times their yearly income.

US

External Debt: $12 Trillion
GDP: $14 Trillion

Yes, the US external debt is much less relatively, about 85% of our yearly income.

Yet of course, nobody will ever put that into context. The will just say "lolz Americunts r liek 12 trillion in debt lolz!" without ever mentioning that several well-to-do countries are in more relative external debt.

For fuck sake, Switzerland is in more debt than we are.

[Korriken]

wanna turn the economy around? Stop outsourcing our goddamn jobs! They wanna bitch about our debt, and our reliance on China, then we should bring our AMERICAN jobs back to AMERICA! Fuck the commie Chinese and their low wages! Them jobs should be here, in America! Its a sad state of affairs when buying products in America made by an American brand actually drains money from our economy to pay Chinese wages!

If the jobs were here in America, then the job market would be MUCH larger. We complain about having a "lower class" that can barely make it, and we still give our work and money to China.

Luckily I'm a security guard and my job CANT be outsourced, only stolen.

I would kill my boss if he walked up to me one day and said, "Sorry, you no longer work for us. We are sending your job overseas and letting some Chinese guy do it for half the price."

[cellardoor6]

At 2/4/08 10:54 PM, JudgeDredd wrote:

At 2/4/08 09:44 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: A recently edited wikipedia article.

Nice try.

Haha. Yeah, like there's nothing more suspect than quoting Govt. debt figure from CIA fact-sheet.

There's nothing more suspect than quoting the section of a wikipedia article that was just edited right before.

Seperating INTERNAL GOVT DEBT from EXTERNAL GOVT DEBT just to re-calculate TOTAL GOVT DEBT is the biggest CON on the planet!

Um, only discussing the budget deficit of the government while applying no larger context is a fucking con, either that or you just displaying your ignorance.

But regardless of how you spin it, the US Govt Debt to GDP ratio is 9.2 Trillion / 14.3 Trillion, or nearly 66% of GDP.

And you're British.

Proportionate Public debt: (2007)

UK: 43.3%
US: 36.8%

External debt: (2007)

UK: $10.5 Trillion
US: $12.25 Trillion

GDP (PPP for 2007)

UK: $2.2 trillion
US: $13.9 Trillion

External debt as % of GDP:

UK: 475%
US: 88%

[TheMason]

At 2/4/08 11:12 PM, Korriken wrote: wanna turn the economy around? Stop outsourcing our goddamn jobs! They wanna bitch about our debt, and our reliance on China, then we should bring our AMERICAN jobs back to AMERICA!

The problem is not outsourcing. We have an employment rate above 95%; which means we have full employment. If anything there is too few workers...not too few jobs. Furthermore, most companies are finding that even though American factory workers earn more than Chinese counter-parts; there is no discernable difference in the cost of production. The Chinese produce less widgets per hour than American workers, which in turn means they have to work say three hours to produce the same amount of product as an American makes in an hour. Furthermore, manufacturers have to ship those products across the Pacific which increases cost. Then there is the fact that by manufacturing so far away reduces the time it takes manufacturers to respond to changes in what the consumer wants.

The problem is that our government is selling bonds to China to finance our spending. What we need to do is cut spending.

[cellardoor6]

I just realized that Judge might actually be Canadian instead of British. Either way.

[Korriken]

At 2/4/08 11:37 PM, TheMason wrote:

The problem is not outsourcing. We have an employment rate above 95%; which means we have full employment. If anything there is too few workers...not too few jobs.

The problem is that our government is selling bonds to China to finance our spending. What we need to do is cut spending.

Or collect more taxes. If we had them jobs over here in America, then the paychecks would be taxed, which in turn means more revenue. Bring the jobs back to America, set up a system to register more non citizen workers and send them to the factories. Their paychecks would be taxed, the stuff they buy would be taxed, and we would have more income. Also shipping fewer goods into america would mean that less oil is used to fuel the ships/jets that bring the stuff into america.

Of course, cutting spending would go a long way as well. a combination of the 2 would be best. We give the chinese work, we pay them, we sell them bonds with the money they make from our work.... beh. Its a raw deal and we're the ones taking it up the ass.

[Imperator]

At 2/4/08 11:37 PM, TheMason wrote:
The problem is not outsourcing.

Unfortunately in Michigan, outsourcing Mfg jobs is precisely the problem. GM has more plants in Mexico than in Michigan, meanwhile Granholm makes an idiot of herself and Honda opens up some plants in Ohio instead of auto-mfg-friendly Michigan......

Too much specialization in education and the economy (mostly dependent on engineers for the auto-industry) plus outsourcing of auto-industry jobs = current status of Michigan economy.

But Michigan is kinda unique in that we're too stupid to diversify our education and open up new economies in other avenues. We stick to our auto industry like white on rice, and go down with the ship as a result. The smart ones take their degrees in stuff that's not engineering, not auto-industry dependent and run like hell to other states.

Heh, I should post this in the discussion of education too....another case where too much math/science focus leads to trouble.....

[TheMason]

At 2/5/08 12:04 AM, Korriken wrote:

At 2/4/08 11:37 PM, TheMason wrote:

The problem is not outsourcing. We have an employment rate above 95%; which means we have full employment. If anything there is too few workers...not too few jobs.

The problem is that our government is selling bonds to China to finance our spending. What we need to do is cut spending.

Or collect more taxes. If we had them jobs over here in America, then the paychecks would be taxed, which in turn means more revenue. Bring the jobs back to America, ...

Okay, I'll try to say this a little more simply. With a 95% employment rate...those jobs going overseas are excess jobs.

Collecting taxes takes money out of the economy. Our problem is Social Security and Medicare has been mismanaged and when anyone tries to get it back on track the opposition party and the AARP uses scare tactics too keep reform from saving these programs.

The answer is simple...we need to do things that are painful (reducing government spending) to save our public economy (government budget).

[TheMason]

At 2/5/08 12:42 AM, Imperator wrote:

At 2/4/08 11:37 PM, TheMason wrote:

Unfortunately in Michigan, outsourcing Mfg jobs is precisely the problem. GM has more plants in Mexico than in Michigan, meanwhile Granholm makes an idiot of herself and Honda opens up some plants in Ohio instead of auto-mfg-friendly Michigan......

Part of the problem with domestic auto-manufacturers is the UAW. My grandfather and two of my uncles are retired (in the case of my uncles, retired in the past year) making $65-80K a year with a pension plan that is so much better than my mother's teacher's pension (a person who has her Masters plus 24hrs). Not bad for jobs that require education no higher than HS.

Honda, Toyota and other Asian auto makers are coming to America for skilled labor but building plants in Ohio and South Carolina to avoid the UAW because the union is one of the things that are making US auto makers uncompetitive making demands that make union workers unattractive to potential employers.

[Imperator]

Honda, Toyota and other Asian auto makers are coming to America for skilled labor but building plants in Ohio and South Carolina to avoid the UAW because the union is one of the things that are making US auto makers uncompetitive making demands that make union workers unattractive to potential employers.

Yup. Damn unions are goin nuts in this state. They control more than the friggin governor.

I'll be taking my degree and gettin the fuck outta here with all the other smart people though, there aren't even HS teaching jobs in MI anymore......

[Memorize]

At 2/5/08 01:33 AM, Imperator wrote:

Yup. Damn unions are goin nuts in this state. They control more than the friggin governor.

I'll be taking my degree and gettin the fuck outta here with all the other smart people though, there aren't even HS teaching jobs in MI anymore......

One of my college professors was from Michigan.

Everytime we got on the subject of Michigan, all he ever talked about were how the Unions there just completely ruined the place.

That because of their demands of equal pay across all employees, a car business went out of business. And people who have been working there for 60 or so years are incapable of receiving any retirement or pension plans because of this.

And the Union will, of course, turn around and say "Look at the evil company not giving their people their pensions".