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At 2/9/08 02:44 AM, joshhunsaker wrote:

philosophy doctors everywhere in the world are rolling in their graves now.

Thank God they're dead. Philosophy stopped being a real profession some times in the 18th century.
And no, nothing is Holy to me, except Transformers: The Movie.
I don't care what anyone says, it's the best 90 minutes you can have.

At 2/9/08 02:50 AM, joshhunsaker wrote: and if satan appeared to me - it would (duh) validate that there was a God anyway.

fine, super-advanced aliens that would give you any answer you could possibly want about everything.

It is possible on the other hand that he could be proven to exist

No, because of the simple principles that:

1- science that is advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic ( God ) hence a being advanced enough could easily fool people ( like you ) that he's a God.
2- there is no way to know this reality is not a fabrication of our mind, hence anything that could happen in it could be attributed to our minds, or to how the universe REALLY works.

Not convinced? Ok what if "God" came down and suddenly started saying things like "ok and black people, I made them to be slaves".
Would you disobey?

And stop changing the subject, there's no predictions in your damn religion, it's no more holy than a Swiss Chalet menu.

And btw, use this:

First, I'd like to say that I'm grateful you don't feel the need to use anymore of your original invective on me. See? I may not be such an evil @-hole after all (at least, anything's possible in this world).

Second, the argument for prophesy has been beaten to death by now and you've shown that even with explanations that I've used to at least open other people's minds concerning Joseph Smith's rather brilliant abilities (if they were nothing more than super-natural) can have no effect upon your rather brash opinions of him...even if you hadn't known such things before. You've maintained an absolutely rock-solid grasp on the same ideology and refused to give an ounce of reasoning to evidence that has been convincing (and I know what people's faces look like when they've had such epiphanies) to many personal acquaintances of my own.

Last, I simply want to take a look a one thing that you wrote...

At 2/9/08 03:44 AM, poxpower wrote:
1- science that is advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic ( God ) hence a being advanced enough could easily fool people ( like you ) that he's a God.

It is funny you should say this, because how do you think I would best describe God to a person who has never heard of such a concept before (think Jewish teaching a pagan or the like). That's exactly what God is - he has absolutely control of the universe through a thing you and I like to call technology. Except for him, it's just a tiny bit more advanced and comprehensive. There is actually nothing mysterious about it at all - if God desired to teach you anything about what he does, it would prove to be completely teachable and verifiable. Every single thing God does could eventually be proved by own now minuscule grasp on the laws upon which the universe is ordered.

There's one catch here: it's that God is not simply some random alien (and think about what that word really means now...). He is a loving Heavenly Father of our spirits (keep thinking technology...see, there you go) who cares for us just like our own earthly parent would. There is no subterfuge here. It would be pointless. God uses all his incredible knowledge of the workings of space and time to create and fabricate worlds for his children to live upon and gain experience through. Eventually I hope to one day go back and start learning how to do all the crazy "technologically-advanced" things that he does. It's as easy as that.

At 2/9/08 03:44 AM, poxpower wrote: 2- there is no way to know this reality is not a fabrication of our mind, hence anything that could happen in it could be attributed to our minds, or to how the universe REALLY works.

Not convinced? Ok what if "God" came down and suddenly started saying things like "ok and black people, I made them to be slaves".
Would you disobey?

And hence lies the whole point of the member of the Godhead normally referred to as the Holy Ghost. You have a conscience - but do you know why you know not to randomly punch people in the face and chop people limbs off and have sex with animals? Well, most Christians have a rather good answer, one that fits right in with the rest of the puzzle. An impostor is an impostor. It's as easy as that. Our problem on this earth is doing exactly what you pointed out - learning to choose the good from the evil...

At 2/9/08 08:40 AM, joshhunsaker wrote:

Joseph Smith's rather brilliant abilities (if they were nothing more than super-natural) can have no effect upon your rather brash opinions of him...even if you hadn't known such things before.

How about you REVERSE this situation here?
What if I start showing you all these other random people you've never given a shit about who have all these "powers" ? What then? Are you going to try and reason with it or are you just going to retreat to the "safe zone" and "agree to disagree" like some mentally lazy pussy?

You assume he's special and then find it sad that I can't share your view, but I know he's not special, I know people like Smith are a dime a dozen. I can't even imagine anything I could do to show you that more than what I have done now because apparently you like philosophy and mormon literature more than you like probabilities and facts.

You've maintained an absolutely rock-solid grasp on the same ideology and refused to give an ounce of reasoning to evidence that has been convincing

Nothing you've shown was even remotely convincing, I explained why to EACH of them and yet you refuse to take on any of those.
No, you just sit back and make more general preachy statements about whatever. Pfff boring.

he has absolutely control of the universe through a thing you and I like to call technology.

See you don't understand that WE COULD ATTAIN THAT POWER. Technology implies that WE COULD BECOME JUST AS POWERFUL.
But "God" is "magic". He doesn't obey the laws of physics. But I'm telling you that you'd never know the difference.

But there is one.

Every single thing God does could eventually be proved by own now minuscule grasp on the laws upon which the universe is ordered.

Ok so now God is some sort of scientist who somehow created the laws by which he then chooses to abide? haha Yeah I see you've thought this through. The only reason you'd use "God" is to explain the universe.
Or to push your religious agenda onto people. But you're way too nice, you'd never do that!

There's one catch here: it's that God is not simply some random alien (and think about what that word really means now...).

What? The word "alien"? I.e. "not from a certain place"? Like "not from earth?
Might seem stupid for me to make this asinine aside, but again just showing you're all over the place here haha
WATCHOO TALKIN' BOUT WILLIS?

He is a loving Heavenly Father of our spirits (keep thinking technology...see, there you go) who cares for us just like our own earthly parent would.

As evidenced by famine, war and syphilis.
BUT WAIT, OMG GOD HE MAEKED TEH CHALLENGES U SEE FOR TEH BETTER OF US LEARN!

Your vision is soooooo limited my friend. I've heard this argument dozens of time. Just face it, we can live without that extra batch of venereal diseases and colon parasites. Just one of each would serve the purpose of "teaching us" or whatever shit.

Anyways, at the end of the day you're just scared. Scared that learning more about the universe around you just explains everything without your benevolent alien scientist. You just created out of thin air, and you sit there believing with all your might that he's real because some asshole named Joseph Smith exploited a town of desperate idiots to start a snowballing cult.

Oh well at least you guys aren't violent.

learning to choose the good from the evil...

Ok again, for someone who pretends he knows dick about philosophy, you certainly have no clue of the concept of "self preservation".
Guess what happens when you go around town punching people. You get punched back.

What do you think is better? For me to punch you and then you to punch me back, or for me to NOT punch you, and you to NOT punch me?
Wow, no one gets punched.

No bible, no morals, no bullshit, just clear cut law of social living.

Read a real book some time will ya, or better yet, THINK FOR YOURSELF. You sound like a broken record.

p.s. I hope I am making you really angry and you punch a pillow. It will relieve all that stress you've been building up and possibly avert you getting ulcers.

p.p.s. don't listen to John Smith, i.e. stop washing yourself with beer and treating your bruises and cuts with cigarette butts.

Oh and p.s. I forgot, and answer this please instead of being a giant wussbag once again:

what if a super-advanced being comes down from the heavens and tells you to do many things that are contrary to your current moral code/ mormon ethics?

I'm not going to read through three pages of material just to respond to the same old dribble so here's my best guess at the proper response.

First of all, observe my sig pic and apply it to your everyday life.

South Park is adult entertainment (much like pornography) and thus did not feel the need to make an accurate rendition of the story they drew from. Mormons believe that those pages of the book were stolen by people who wished to discredit Joseph Smith so they wanted to force him to retranslated those pages so they could change their copies if he did it and claim he didn't. Since the restored translation came from another book the threat was negated.

As for September Dawn, it may be true that some bat-shit-crazy Mormons killed some people passing through their land but pretty much everyone agrees that the movie portrayed it in the most biased anti Mormon way possible. First of all it turns out those Mormons did happen to be human beings (fallible and everything). They had been chased out of every other place they tried to settle in, they saw their homes burned to the ground and their friends and family members murdered. They perceived that group of settlers as a threat to the peace they had finally found then made a tragic mistake. It was the mistake of an isolated group and there is no evidence of higher involvement by the church leadership as portrayed in the film. That movie is simply an indication of what a high priced anti Romney ad looks like. We all know how reliable political ads are for unbiased information.

That has been this weeks lesson in "Pop Culture Does Not a Good Historian Make," come back next week for pictures of me fucking your mom in the ass.

At 2/9/08 12:19 PM, poxpower wrote: Oh and p.s. I forgot, and answer this please instead of being a giant wussbag once again:

what if a super-advanced being comes down from the heavens and tells you to do many things that are contrary to your current moral code/ mormon ethics?

Pox you seem like you need a hug. I won't hug you because I imagine you smell like shit, but I'll find somebody who will. They will take you in their arms , stroke your hair and tell you what a good boy you are. Would you like that big guy?

At 2/9/08 01:26 PM, BeFell wrote: Since the restored translation came from another book the threat was negated.

I think you forgot to mention the part where the books were all invisible and only ever seen by Joseph Smith. Again I'm no specialist so you tell me if that's not true. If you've seen the South Park episode, you tell me what wondrous facts they're hiding from me here, or if they're lying about something.

come back next week for pictures of me fucking your mom in the ass.

Yeah you sound mormon... yeah...

At 2/9/08 02:38 PM, poxpower wrote: I think you forgot to mention the part where the books were all invisible and only ever seen by Joseph Smith. Again I'm no specialist so you tell me if that's not true. If you've seen the South Park episode, you tell me what wondrous facts they're hiding from me here, or if they're lying about something.

Joseph Smith wasn't the only one to ever see the book, there's a list of witnesses right after the title page. If you or the South Park guys had ever actually opened the book you are criticizing you would know that. South Park didn't say anything about the books being invisible...

Yeah you sound mormon... yeah...

You're just bitter because I won't hug you.

At 2/9/08 05:47 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 2/9/08 02:38 PM, poxpower wrote:

Joseph Smith wasn't the only one to ever see the book, there's a list of witnesses right after the title page. If you or the South Park guys had ever actually opened the book you are criticizing you would know that. South Park didn't say anything about the books being invisible...

So basically Smith, in all his glory and power, allowed a new group of disciples, that would be better then twelve....

by having fifteen.

But question, is the Indian thing true (as in Indians are actually Jews from Jerusalem that were white skinned but were turned red by Gods wrath) or was Jospeh Smith just pandering to American Jingoism by having an American Jesus?

Look, people. The real point to all this is that if the Book of Mormon isn't true, then nothing about our church is. Nothing. If the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical document then it is all true. Every last bit.

There is either one true church, or there is no church - period. Atheism might seem like the most scientifically accurate theory, but at the end of the day - where does it leave you? You have no God, you have no ruler, you have no path to follow. You are like a chaotic particle not governed by anything except it's own carnal desires. You simply deny that there will ever be a need for a higher power...but look around and tell me what you see. Governments, presidents, councils, organizations, corporations, families - all structurally based.

@poxpower
Religion is about structure and order. Atheism is about the breakdown of it. Religion foresees a future society where everything is finally united in an eternal spiritual order. Atheism sees a society where all its ancestry has been blasted into pure nothingness. Guess what? In 100 years - you, your life, your whole family - everything you had or will ever have - will become utterly meaningless and wasted. Have you ever truly thought about simply no longer existing? Just being absolutely void? The thought is scary as hell.

Have a nice life.

At 2/9/08 09:00 PM, joshhunsaker wrote: Atheism sees a society where all its ancestry has been blasted into pure nothingness.

atheism is the lack of belief in gods, or the supernatural. end. nothing more, nothing less.
beliefs and ideas added and built upon that is philosophy.

if you do not believe in the supernatural - it can be safely said that you must also of necessity believe that when you die - that is your end. Your finality. Your "game over".

Cellar, could you give me a link to a website or article that you feel, in your opinion and knowledge of Mormonism; accurately depicts the beliefs and values of the Mormon religion.

Because i have a slight intuition that the 1950's quality video of Mormonism being about the abrahamic god being part of a Pantheon and being elevated to god-status... Somewhat... misleading?

And check your private messages. [pl0x]

At 2/9/08 10:19 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: Cellar, could you give me a link to a website or article that you feel, in your opinion and knowledge of Mormonism; accurately depicts the beliefs and values of the Mormon religion.

Because i have a slight intuition that the 1950's quality video of Mormonism being about the abrahamic god being part of a Pantheon and being elevated to god-status... Somewhat... misleading?

And check your private messages. [pl0x]

Cell hasn't posted this yet? What a lousy token Mormon. =P

Behold the 13 articles of faith written by Joseph Smith. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,494 5,106-1-2-1,FF.html

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

At 2/9/08 07:04 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 2/9/08 05:47 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 2/9/08 02:38 PM, poxpower wrote:

Joseph Smith wasn't the only one to ever see the book, there's a list of witnesses right after the title page. If you or the South Park guys had ever actually opened the book you are criticizing you would know that. South Park didn't say anything about the books being invisible...

So basically Smith, in all his glory and power, allowed a new group of disciples, that would be better then twelve....

by having fifteen.

There are twelve apostles plus a first presidency made up of three individuals. Jesus's time he served the role of the first presidency. After his death Peter took his place.

But question, is the Indian thing true (as in Indians are actually Jews from Jerusalem that were white skinned but were turned red by Gods wrath) or was Jospeh Smith just pandering to American Jingoism by having an American Jesus?

The skin changing thing is actually in the the book of Mormon. Obviously there had to be some explanation of how a bunch of Jews turned into the Native Americans and higher sun exposure wasn't going to do it.

Oh and on the subject of American Jesus. It's the same fucking Jesus, we just believe he visited America after he got done in Israel running around saying "Look, I'm dead but not really!"

At 2/9/08 05:47 PM, BeFell wrote:

Joseph Smith wasn't the only one to ever see the book, there's a list of witnesses right after the title page. If you or the South Park guys had ever actually opened the book you are criticizing you would know that. South Park didn't say anything about the books being invisible...

says here there's "golden plates"
http://www.carm.org/lds/beginning.htm

Never has anyone seen these, except people who were friends of Smith and already mormons/ into the scam.

You'd think something important like Golden fucking plates with the word of God on them would be enough to convince people, but I'm sorry to tell you that THEY DON'T EXIST.
:(

aaaaaaaw

At 2/9/08 09:00 PM, joshhunsaker wrote: Look, people. The real point to all this is that if the Book of Mormon isn't true, then nothing about our church is. Nothing. If the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical document then it is all true. Every last bit.

Oh wow really? That's fucking sweet. Ok, there were no white people here in the time of Jesus. There, boom, disproved your bible. You can quit your religion now.

where does it leave you? You have no God, you have no ruler, you have no path to follow.

Oh here we go again, that pitiful crutch scared little assholes like you use to "have a better life", to pretend like you mean something. Yeah that's great that you've imbued yourself with a sense of self-importance by lying to yourself all your life.
I'm happy for you. Why don't you do drugs or drink alcohol? It's the same shit, it gives you a nice buzz and destroys your brain.

Governments, presidents, councils, organizations, corporations, families - all structurally based.

and all humans just like me. Man you're so boned.
BONED.

Have you ever truly thought about simply no longer existing? Just being absolutely void? The thought is scary as hell.

Yes. Yes I have and that's why I've looked into religions, that's why I've looked for spiritual shit and the afterlife and magic, like everyone else, and at every fucking turn you find ASSHOLES and FRAUDS who lie to people, people like YOU, and it makes me sick to my stommach to think that some people have based their entire lives on exploiting people's fear of death.

You know, I wish I was born religious. I wish I didn't have that to deal with every day, the fact that I'll be gone one day and possibly forever.
But that's the cold fucking truth. I have no choice but to follow it. You're obviously smart enough to know your own religious is pure bullshit, you're just living with your head buried in the sand, avoiding thinking and confrontation just like in this thread.

Well that's one way of being happy in life, I won't deny it, but you're still a LIAR, and you're still WRONG, about so much. Sooo damn much.

At 2/9/08 10:59 PM, BeFell wrote:

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

lol that sounds like a legal disclaimer for an internet program or something.

The skin changing thing is actually in the the book of Mormon. Obviously there had to be some explanation of how a bunch of Jews turned into the Native Americans and higher sun exposure wasn't going to do it.

Newslfash: none of the native people spoke Hebrew.
Newsflash: native americans come from asia, not the middle east.
Newsflash: oh God.

At 2/9/08 10:13 PM, joshhunsaker wrote: if you do not believe in the supernatural - it can be safely said that you must also of necessity believe that when you die - that is your end. Your finality. Your "game over".

and your point?

My math teacher is mormon, in fact, he's a bishop. Nicest, most logical person I've met. He doesn't have 10 wives, he doesn't sacrifice goats. He's never had a drop of alcohol in his life (well, he does have a story about his apple juice fermenting, but that's a whole other deal), he doesn't smoke, and he has never done any illegal substances. Wow, what a wackjob.

At 2/10/08 01:35 AM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 2/9/08 10:13 PM, joshhunsaker wrote: if you do not believe in the supernatural - it can be safely said that you must also of necessity believe that when you die - that is your end. Your finality. Your "game over".

and your point?

Well, hats off if you can rest easy with that idea lingering in your head. I would rather live in a world that I "knew" to be fantasy than one so dark and cold as that.

At 2/9/08 11:24 PM, poxpower wrote: You know, I wish I was born religious. I wish I didn't have that to deal with every day, the fact that I'll be gone one day and possibly forever.

"Possibly forever"??

That didn't sound very convincing - here let me help you.

IN 100 YEARS - YOU WILL MEAN NOTHING. FOREVER. YOU WILL BE GONE AND ALL THE NASTY WORDS YOU'VE EVER SPOUTED TO THOSE NUTJOB RELIGIONISTS WILL IMMEDIATELY FALL AS FLAT AS THE PATHETIC VALUE THAT EVERYTHING YOU EVER DREAMED FOR YOURSELF WILL BE QUELLED TO. YOUR WHOLE LIFE WILL HAVE BECOME A GRANDE WASTE OF ATOMIC SUBSTANCE.

Even if I absolutely positively knew there was no God (which again, I state that a universal negative CANNOT be proved - which point you ignored) then I would still rather live in a video game fantasy world than the one devoid of hope and joy that I see when I think of existential obliteration. It might be a pathetic lie - but because you do not believe in a God, there will be no repercussions or judgments for such lies - and therefore I need not worry about them for I will need pay no debt for my sins at the end. I might as well go around lying my way through life and making a massive lurid adventure full of chaos out of it, because I would damn well want to go out with a friggin bang before I am crushed into obscurity.

But you continue to lead your little life - fought on the playgrounds of internet forums, while you could be out turning the world upside down to at least make a name for yourself before you become of so little value that not even your relatives can bring you back.

At 2/10/08 12:42 PM, joshhunsaker wrote:

That didn't sound very convincing - here let me help you.

Don't tell me what I believe you simpleton. You can't grasp the basic concept of "burden of truth", don't try to assume to know what I think the universe is all about.

I state that a universal negative CANNOT be proved - which point you ignored)

Then why don't you believe in Thor? Can't disprove Thor. You can't prove God, I can't disprove him, neither of us should believe in him, but yet there you are, struggling with the very first and most basic notion of logic.

then I would still rather live in a video game fantasy world than the one devoid of hope and joy that I see when I think of existential obliteration.

Me too. But for that to happen, you have to not be aware of the real world, which you clearly are.
It is clear to me that you know full well you are wrong, but you CHOOSE to believe.
Think about that for a second. How can you CHOOSE to believe? Faith is NOT up to you, if you believe something, it is beyond you to change that merely with your willpower.

I can't just start believing in God. It's too late for me now.
And you can't choose it. I'm so sorry that you don't understand this. I'm so sorry that religion is the only way to alleviate the fear of death. I wish every day that I would be proven wrong about it all.
Every day, do you understand what I am saying to you here?

I WISH you would be right, with every fiber of my body, I truly do. And yet you fail utterly and miserably to convince me. While on the other hand you will resist and and all attempts from anyone to show you that you might be wrong about what you have believed since your birth.

Am I right here? Hmm? Were you per chance RAISED mormon? Religion is spread CULTURALY, not "spiritualy" or through reasoning. It's CULTURE.
You are BORN religious. It's not wonder that the ones that survived and thrived are the ones that encouraged people to mate a lot.

But you continue to lead your little life - fought on the playgrounds of internet forums, while you could be out turning the world upside down to at least make a name for yourself before you become of so little value that not even your relatives can bring you back.

You're a pathetic slime, I'm sorry to say.
I admit I might not be getting the better out of my life arguing with a dolt like you about something like this, but at least I don't delude myself and boost my self-confidence by knocking everyone else down because "they won't live a great life like me with my great religion".

You're so petty, so vain it's sad. And you have a moral code that doesn't even allow you to be those things, so you're a fucking liar and a hypocrite as well. Maybe it makes you happy, but so does raping little children for other people, so you take that for what it's worth.

Also, lol

At 2/9/08 10:59 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 2/9/08 10:19 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

There are twelve apostles plus a first presidency made up of three individuals. Jesus's time he served the role of the first presidency. After his death Peter took his place.

I am well aware of the Original apostles of Christ. What I was referring to was Smith's apostles.

The skin changing thing is actually in the the book of Mormon. Obviously there had to be some explanation of how a bunch of Jews turned into the Native Americans and higher sun exposure wasn't going to do it.

But how did everything else change about them. I mean, facial features, bone densisty all of that. There are more differences between native Palestinian Jews and Asiatic Natives.

Or is it just the faith in God.

At 2/9/08 11:01 PM, BeFell wrote: Oh and on the subject of American Jesus. It's the same fucking Jesus, we just believe he visited America after he got done in Israel running around saying "Look, I'm dead but not really!"

So, Adam Smith then is just a new prophet that supposed to show the revelations that Christ had already made open to us?

I mean, Christ was supposed to be the last prophet.

Christ, son of God and God himself, coming down and being born of man, preaching the message of the the Father, and being crucified and dying to vanquish death and open up everlasting life.

What type of prophet is needed after that?
Muslims had one, and in effect started a new religion.

Why not Mormons?

At 2/10/08 12:42 PM, joshhunsaker wrote: Even if I absolutely positively knew there was no God (which again, I state that a universal negative CANNOT be proved - which point you ignored) then I would still rather live in a video game fantasy world than the one devoid of hope and joy that I see when I think of existential obliteration. It might be a pathetic lie - but because you do not believe in a God, there will be no repercussions or judgments for such lies - and therefore I need not worry about them for I will need pay no debt for my sins at the end. I might as well go around lying my way through life and making a massive lurid adventure full of chaos out of it, because I would damn well want to go out with a friggin bang before I am crushed into obscurity.

Alright, now that irritated the fuck out of me. It's a MASSIVE generalization to assume that because one does not believe in God that there is no moral guidance to the individual, and therefore will (and should) engage in a life of crime and anarchy.

Considering that since its dawn people millions have been killed in the name of God (Christian God), I wouldn't try to pull a fucking moral argument for religious belief.

The fact that you NEED a deity to keep you on the straight and narrow tells me you're a man of low character and WEAK MORALS, and that only the belief in divine punishment is what keeps you in line. That's below deplorable, and then you have the balls to play this supposed moral high ground? Fuck off! I'm Catholic, and there ARE ways to discuss your faith to atheists and agnostics. This is by far the most unacceptable.

And keep in mind it's fucking FAITH for a reason. You ride on nothing but crossed fingers that not only does this divine retribution exist, but that you'll pass it too, so don't act like you've got life all nice and figured out.

But you continue to lead your little life - fought on the playgrounds of internet forums, while you could be out turning the world upside down to at least make a name for yourself before you become of so little value that not even your relatives can bring you back.

Ghandi managed to do just fucking fine without your God, thank you kindly.

You wanna know what the ironic thing is? Adam and Eve, the supposed first people on the planet, have been remembered up to our current date with the legacy of disobeying God.

You talk about one's Legacy after death, and yet forget that the first man and woman are known for fucking shit up......

thank Christ I know you're just a typical Christian shithead, cause it asshats like you that make me contemplate worshipping Sol Invictus out of that same sheer stupidity and blind passion you have so often exhibited in this thread.

Now try again, and this time make sure you're not fucking up being Christian for the rest of us please.

At 2/10/08 07:59 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 2/9/08 10:59 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 2/9/08 10:19 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

There are twelve apostles plus a first presidency made up of three individuals. Jesus's time he served the role of the first presidency. After his death Peter took his place.

I am well aware of the Original apostles of Christ. What I was referring to was Smith's apostles.

Restoration of the church set up by Jesus. The original apostles brought in new apostles after the death of Christ. Are you familiar with Paul?

The skin changing thing is actually in the the book of Mormon. Obviously there had to be some explanation of how a bunch of Jews turned into the Native Americans and higher sun exposure wasn't going to do it.

But how did everything else change about them. I mean, facial features, bone densisty all of that. There are more differences between native Palestinian Jews and Asiatic Natives.

Or is it just the faith in God.

My personal guess is intermixing with with Asians who crossed the land bridge. The book of Mormon doesn't say all native Americans came from Israel.

At 2/11/08 01:37 AM, BeFell wrote:

My personal guess is intermixing with with Asians who crossed the land bridge. The book of Mormon doesn't say all native Americans came from Israel.

So do you have even one shred of archaeological evidence for this? It's clear that those people would have built houses in a similar fashion as they did in the middle east, and they would have WRITTEN and were more technologically advanced than the current natives, so it's logical to assume that they would have established a settlement with roads and houses.
Where are they?

At 2/10/08 09:03 PM, Imperator wrote:

At 2/10/08 12:42 PM, joshhunsaker wrote: Even if I absolutely positively knew there was no God (which again, I state that a universal negative CANNOT be proved - which point you ignored) then I would still rather live in a video game fantasy world than the one devoid of hope and joy that I see when I think of existential obliteration. It might be a pathetic lie - but because you do not believe in a God, there will be no repercussions or judgments for such lies - and therefore I need not worry about them for I will need pay no debt for my sins at the end. I might as well go around lying my way through life and making a massive lurid adventure full of chaos out of it, because I would damn well want to go out with a friggin bang before I am crushed into obscurity.

Alright, now that irritated the fuck out of me. It's a MASSIVE generalization to assume that because one does not believe in God that there is no moral guidance to the individual, and therefore will (and should) engage in a life of crime and anarchy.

Wait; think about this. Where do the ideas for morals come from? Who created them? Who came down and told me that I don't have the right to lie and cheat and steal and do whatever the hell I want? The government? And who set that up? What if I don't like them?

If you don't believe in God then (and this should be common sense) it should be quite obvious that "morality" is as much a man made institution as hockey is. They are both just crapped out of someone's brain to try to accomplish something that THEY felt should be the status quo. And if not - who gave us all these seemingly "set in stone" morals? Why can't I go ahead and define morality for myself as just making the best dang name for myself as I can at no expense to the image of anyone else because I feel everyone else pales in comparison to my own worth?

Do you see how your argument breaks down so quickly? If there is no God, then - besides the concept of government (and hence normal-average-everyday-joe-citizen-you-
and-I instituted) prisons; there is absolutely NOTHING that should be telling me what the hell I can and cannot do. I am my own damn master. Maybe not all atheists feel this way - and that's a shame, because it's basically passively admitting that there is something "more" to "morals" than meets the eye (which is exactly all it should be - from a Godless perspective - nothing more than someone else's flippin opinion of a guideline). And I daresay that like many Sunshine-patriot style Christians - calling yourself an atheist and never really seriously taking into consideration the ramifications of such a concept is akin to the way that people tell me they believe in God but cannot describe him in any other way than "mysterious". That's a load of crap. Choosing to not understand something through serious reflection, consideration and research is called ignorance. The root of that word should make it self-explanatory.

People without a God should feel so free from all cares - nothing will matter in the end anyway, you will be gone and null at the end of the day - and so will all the mistakes and bad things you ever did. Like having a clean slate. And at the same time - not ever having to have a slate again. I never even made a generalization. In your haste you got terribly angry and shot back a few slices of invective of your own in a weak attempt to harness the power of frustration. All you did was end up misunderstanding what I said.

I happened to be explaining how I would feel - if it were possible for me to learn there was no God. That's just me. If you look back on the paragraph - you'll find that I used the word "you" in reference to the dictionary definition of an atheist - and then expounded upon how I would use such a stance to my overall advantage.

The remainder of your post speaks worlds about your integrity (and I'm not going to humor you by sorting through the various levels of potty-language your mother somehow avoided counseling you against...). I would suggest investigating a little prayer to ask forgiveness to being so very mean to one of your brothers in Christ. And even if you decide to still hate my guts based off a rather random internet forum post without ever having personally met me (and who's to say everything about someone's character can't be learned by a couple of short paragraphs of internet expose'? right?) I still love you and I would pledge to give you a hug when we get back to the spirit world. Cheers.

At 2/11/08 02:47 AM, joshhunsaker wrote:
Wait; think about this. Where do the ideas for morals come from?

People throughout the ages that have had about 50 different religions have all come up with the same similar set of morals ( don't kill, don't steal, don't rape, don't cheat etc ), yet their religious beliefs have all been in most cases opposing ( kill virgins, save virgins, throw virgins in volcanoes, eat virgins etc. ).

So either:

1- there's all these different Gods who came down on these people to tell them what to believe
2-it's all the same God who for some reason is telling all these people radically opposing things about their rituals and their faith
3- all of those people were just delusional and mormons are the only ones who REALLY know what's going on
4-humans make their own morals.

Bam you lose.

Why can't I go ahead and define morality for myself as just making the best dang name for myself as I can at no expense to the image of anyone else because I feel everyone else pales in comparison to my own worth?

You can do that. YOu probably will end up in jail or be hated by people around you, But you can do it, and you won't go to hell, you won't get bad Karma, Anubis won't carry you to the land of the dead and Thor won't forbid you from entering Valhalla.

I am my own damn master.

How are you not? DO you not choose by yourself to abide by your religion? No one is forcing you but yourself.
Not convinced? You clearly do not believe in the myth that you have to throw people down temple stairs each day so the sun would rise, and yet for generations, it's exactly what Aztecs did, with the same excuse as you: "I can't stop, because God tells me to do this thing, I am not master of it".
But they have long since stopped and the sun has risen many times since then, and rose many times before the first man set foot on land.

So like them, you self-impose this moral code, thinking it's passed down from above, but it's all you baby, it's all you.

All you did was end up misunderstanding what I said.

Says the guy who doesn't even quote what people are saying and instead writes broad giant blocks of text about general philosophies which he struggles to understand and accept.

Release your anger.
Only your hatred can destroy me.

Buy my toys.

The remainder of your post speaks worlds about your integrity (and I'm not going to humor you by sorting through the various levels of potty-language your mother somehow avoided counseling you against...).

Again this is a very common religious plot to avoid facing down arguments: religious people will very often get a free raincheck out of debates by calling up the "foul mouth" card, like it had any bearing on the veracity of a claim.

Is "hey, fuckhead! 2+ 2 is 4, so fuck the hell off you dumb shit" any less true than "2+2 = 4, dear friend"?
No.
You think you're so original, you think you're "showing me" but I've seen people like you time and time again, I've seen all your arguments, I know where they stem from and I know that you will never admit that they are crushed. You REFUSE to believe you could be wrong, where I would wish you were right with all my being. Ironic, isn't it?
That's not a rhetorical question btw, quote this line. I want to see if you're even reading this.
Where an atheist will almost always engage a religious person head-on, point-by-point, a religious person, like you, will fire back with :

- bad analogies ( i.e. watchmaker bullshit )
- personal attacks ( i.e. "you're foul mouthed, so you're wrong )
- feelings their have ( I KNOW that love can't be explained )
- ignorance of facts ( evolution is not proven, oh no, nothing hints at it at all )
- moral attacks ( oh you atheist and your lack of morals, you will doom us all to sodomy )
- broad general pontifications that don't really have anything to do with the points

And even if you decide to still hate my guts based off a rather random internet forum post without ever having personally met me

I don't hate you, you're just showing how impossibly ignorant and unwilling to change you are. You don't respond to anything I say directly, you don't quote, you do nothing the way a respectful debater would.
I can see right through you. You're so angry and afraid in this world... just clutching to your upbringing as if the universe depended on it... hmmm

Of course as I've said, I'd love to go to the spirit world too, and I'm damn sure it's not through your book, or any mortal man's, that the way it paved. If anything, it's through genuinely caring for other people, unlike you, who is petty and small and who loves seemingly only because of such an impossibly huge reward like your OWN eternal happiness, when us "lawless atheists" will love someone for just a lifetime without expecting anything in return but that person's love and respect.

That's FAR, FAR more noble than what even Jesus did, a man who, in his infinite humility, thought himself the eternal son of the most powerful force conceivable. But I know you, I know you won't think about what I'm saying for even one second before throwing it right out the window in your own mind, without even offering me the courtesy of a decent rebuttal.

Truly a pathetic sight.

At 2/10/08 01:11 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 2/10/08 12:42 PM, joshhunsaker wrote:

I can't just start believing in God. It's too late for me now.
And you can't choose it. I'm so sorry that you don't understand this. I'm so sorry that religion is the only way to alleviate the fear of death. I wish every day that I would be proven wrong about it all.
Every day, do you understand what I am saying to you here?

I WISH you would be right, with every fiber of my body, I truly do. And yet you fail utterly and miserably to convince me. While on the other hand you will resist and and all attempts from anyone to show you that you might be wrong about what you have believed since your birth.

On the contrary. I openly admit that anything is possible. But in the case that I am wrong - it will simply not matter. I have more bases covered this way. Preparing for the worst-case scenario (viz. judgment day) is normally seen as being an intelligent decision. Especially in the wake of instances of hurricanes, famine, war, pestilence and other such acts - preparation is basically key to survival. And if the storm never comes? Well, there's no need to get upset about spilled milk...

Let me say it again...I may be wrong. I cannot prove to you or myself that there is a God. But it still stands that the things I have "felt" in my life hold much more weight than the arguments of logic and science - which tend to change everyday.

Maybe you don't have to start believing in God. All you have to do is wonder. Is such a thing possible? The answer is...yes. It is possible. Beyond that? Well, therein lies your journey, and yours alone.

Am I right here? Hmm? Were you per chance RAISED mormon? Religion is spread CULTURALY, not "spiritualy" or through reasoning. It's CULTURE.
You are BORN religious. It's not wonder that the ones that survived and thrived are the ones that encouraged people to mate a lot.

Yes, I was raised mormon. But then you are wrong - I was not born religious. Compared to what I know now - I knew nothing half a decade ago - comparatively zip, zero, nada. I gave people respect, I tried hard to be good, but religion meant so very little in a sense. I didn't "know God" 10 years ago. I didn't know him 6 years ago. And I know in 40 years - I'll look back at this period and think that I didn't know him now. But what I do recognize is the pattern - the more I learn - the more puzzle pieces slowly start to fit. The more time goes on - the more it all makes sense. The more I search for answers...the more I find. Believe me - I constantly assess both sides of the argument. What's really really weird though? It's that it's not a physical sense of knowledge or logic that I have in my mind that solidifies the truth of it for me - it's something far different.

I'll ask you a question. Has anyone ever loved you? Ever? And if so, how did you know? How did you know they weren't just using you? Would it be scientifically possible to prove it.

I've asked these question over and over to myself and others - every time, it's the same thing. The subject changes. Immediately. No-one can answer such a question.

Or try this. Can you tell someone who has never tasted salt before, what salt tastes like? Try it. It doesn't work if you say "it's not sweet and it's not sour". Then you've only explained what it doesn't taste like.

My knowledge of God comes from a feeling that's more significant to me than sight itself. It's not fundamentally describable - neither should it be. It's the kind of feeling you get when you find the person you know you want to marry, or when you realize how much you appreciate the simple and seemingly insignificant things in life and everything becomes wondrous and spectacular again. When the world fills with the same kind of feeling that you used to get as a child and all the earth and it's treasures were new and priceless. The feeling you get when you're with your family when your young and you know they would do anything to keep you safe and love you and be with you.

All the worth of the scientific world and all it's offerings cannot compare to these moments in my life. The times when I really feel at peace and everything is "right" and nothing can be wrong even if everything is breaking apart around me. I value those thoughts more than life itself - I wake up every morning and everything is worth it because I know I am loved. Because I know that there is something more. It's not that it simply makes logical sense. It's something that guides me in a way completely different than petty logic can offer.

I know God lives because I feel his presence - and I though I can deny all the rest of my senses and forget everything I have seen or smelled or touched or heard...I cannot forget what I have felt. Those emotions burn in my heart to a far greater extent than any visual excitement that could ever be bestowed upon me.

I don't need to see God to know he lives, I just need to feel his love - and it is worth more than all the images and pictures and diagrams that the world could furnish in a million years...because those things will fade from my memory. But the feelings? They will never fade. And they never have. I can no longer describe key images and sounds from my child hood - but feelings? I can tell them as if I had just been there yesterday.

You're a pathetic slime, I'm sorry to say.
I admit I might not be getting the better out of my life arguing with a dolt like you about something like this, but at least I don't delude myself and boost my self-confidence by knocking everyone else down because "they won't live a great life like me with my great religion".

It's not my religion, it's not my body - technically - it's not even really my life. I lead it as I see it should be lead by the power of the Holy Ghost. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not perfect, nor am I anywhere near it. The word "self-confidence" has really very little meaning to me. I don't try to hang with in-crowds anymore, I don't portend to some great gift, I have done nothing but defend my religion to you, and I certainly see this as good fun, as I see most things in life.

Honestly, you're responses have been perfect. I cannot fault you - for I do not know you. There is no room for me to judge. I can explain what knowledge I have gained, argue it against a platform of fundamentals and leave it at that.

You're so petty, so vain it's sad. And you have a moral code that doesn't even allow you to be those things, so you're a fucking liar and a hypocrite as well. Maybe it makes you happy, but so does raping little children for other people, so you take that for what it's worth.

Also, lol

Likewise, it is obvious here that you know me about as well as I do you. I suppose I have lied on occasion to save myself embarrassment - but mostly in cases far more dangerous than this. A hypocrite? Naturally, any one not claiming (or who claims) perfection is susceptible to such things. I think to simply call someone a hypocrite though puts you on a bit of unstable ground to begin with...unless you are perfect.

At 2/11/08 03:28 AM, joshhunsaker wrote:

On the contrary. I openly admit that anything is possible. But in the case that I am wrong - it will simply not matter. I have more bases covered this way.

What if it turns out that religious people go to hell and non-religious people, like me, go to heaven?
Using that point of view, which is no less valid than yours, I have the same number of "bases" covered.
And some other religions believe that if you are not of their religion, you are doomed. So I guess your insurance policy doesn't cover 'those bases" either.
oopsy

I have "felt" in my life hold much more weight than the arguments of logic and science

What if I feel I should kill you? If "feeling" things becomes enough of an argument to carry out an action, then what's to stop anyone from doing terrible things because they "feel the faith"?
Do you want a list of people who do terrible things based on this principle alone?

which tend to change everyday.

outright lie.

I'll look back at this period and think that I didn't know him now.

So what you're saying to me here is that :

1- you either have always been religious
2- have never been

It seems very clear that 1 is the correct answer here. Again you are like many moderate religious people; you don't think about it much and you avoid confrontation, which is fine, but it paves the way to abuse and extremism later on.
It seems very harmless and benevolent when taken in a personal, family-sized world view, but if you extrapolate it through many generations, you will eventually find some bad apples that are so empowered by their faith that reasoning with them is impossible and they cause catastrophic events which could have been prevented otherwise.

But what I do recognize is the pattern - the more I learn - the more puzzle pieces slowly start to fit.

like what?
It sounds to me like you're saying " the more I learn about what science doesn't know yet, the more I convince myself that I must be right in the end".

I'll ask you a question. Has anyone ever loved you? Ever? And if so, how did you know? How did you know they weren't just using you?
Would it be scientifically possible to prove it.

If maping of the brain becomes accurate enough one day, yes, it is fully possible. Despite what you would have yourself believe, the brain is nothing more than an organic computer, it can be programmed one way or the other, though we have no even begun to scratch our potential there, nor do I know if we should. If we can implant memories or wipe them, you can see how that could give the wrong people too much power.

No-one can answer such a question.

well it's your lucky day then.
You are aware that tests on the brain have been made in which they have been able to induce feelings to people? Granted we're just at a very primitive state of this, there's no reason to think we won't progress further, it's perfectly physically possible.

Or try this. Can you tell someone who has never tasted salt before, what salt tastes like?

No, what does that prove? I can see salt, you can't see God, if that's your point. You're claiming here that you have more senses than I do, when there's no evidence that shows it at all except that you have convinced yourself of it, which is not proof of anything and surely won't convince me that you "know God" or "have felt him".

My knowledge of God comes from a feeling that's more significant to me than sight itself.

Man I've heard that one so many times too haha.
Ok let me tell you a little story. I think I know what you're saying here, correct me if I'm wrong.

When I was young, I borrowed a book on ghosts at the library, it has all these scary pictures of ghosts and it had the ghost legends in it. Then that night when I went to sleep, I could just feel it.. I just FELT like there was something above me. I pulled the covers over my head and the feeling just grew, I was TERRIFIED, yet I couldn't see or hear any "ghosts".
I surely cannot prove to you there there are no ghosts, but you see what I am saying here. And I'm quite sure that feeling was quite a lot more intense than what you feel every day when/if you pray.

It's a self-induced placebo effect, clearly evidenced by the fact that people from wildly different religions all claims to have this "feeling" on two conditions:

1- they have heard about the specific religion
2- they were brought up to believe that feeling exists

suspicious indeed.

All the worth of the scientific world and all it's offerings cannot compare to these moments in my life.

I could say the same thing of times when I was drunk, of course you'd refute my claims, and quite rightly so, by telling me alcohol was the cause, but where you are concerned, you cannot accept that your own mind could play tricks on you, when it has been demonstrated time and time again that the brain is more than capable of doing such things, and far more.

Naturally, any one not claiming (or who claims) perfection is susceptible to such things. I think to simply call someone a hypocrite though puts you on a bit of unstable ground to begin with...unless you are perfect.

no, I'm a hypocrite too a lot of the times, except I don't believe it will lead me to hell or that it's a "sin" that should be punished some time later in the time stream by god. I try to correct it as I can, it has nothing to do with religion.

Religion is the only thing that could shield man ( so far ) from all that he's most afraid of: death, that love and happiness are just physical, that life is random, that there is no justice, that there is no goal to life. It would seem quite benevolent to lead your life without those crippling fears, and I would fully understand a completely atheist person raising his kids as devout religious people just to shy them away from those.
But religion also gives power to people who would exploit it, terrible power that no human should ever have. Same as a King should never be put on a throne because he was born from the right vagina, never should a man hold onto a truth without reason or evidence because he claims "he felt it in his heart".

I can see full well how this power could be used for an astonishing good, but I know you can see full well how it could ( and has been used many times ) for unspeakable evil. Preventable evil, perhaps. Would the world be better off without religion? Neither of us will know that answer before we die, nor probably will our children and theirs, but I for one think that yes, at the point we are at now, we should discard it, if only to know where it leads and make the rather ironic "logical" choice to become religious again...