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ThePulp
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-03 00:19:43 Reply

At 1/2/15 08:35 PM, twobyfour wrote: so that means I automatically got dropped because of the guy that found me was unscouted?? this is weird.

That's how the branching system works. The base of the branch gets cut off, all that was a part of that branch falls off, too.


- asshole - tits -

radiodark
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-03 04:29:04 Reply

At 1/2/15 08:35 PM, twobyfour wrote: so that means I automatically got dropped because of the guy that found me was unscouted?? this is weird.

Yeah. Often non-portal worthy artists are inclined to scout other non-portal worthy artists, so usually it works out.


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AniMate
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-05 15:43:16 Reply

At least these people deserve to be scouted in my oppinion.

elSEEDY
Xtremeneox
SubliminalVirus
aNroll

And of course I'd be grateful if I would be scouted as well :)
I'm the last one on the list, AniMate.

Thank you for your consideration.

CypressDahlia
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-11 11:39:33 Reply

So uhh can someone do something about a user named tdafgt. I read one of his "reviews" on Alvin's latest work and decided to look into it. Apparently he only speaks this language.

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Lundsfryd
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-11 17:49:35 Reply

At 1/11/15 11:39 AM, CypressDahlia wrote: So uhh can someone do something about a user named tdafgt. I read one of his "reviews" on Alvin's latest work and decided to look into it. Apparently he only speaks this language.

I got a review from the person as well. He had posted 65 identical "watwatwat" reviews. What a strange waste of time.


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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-11 19:07:35 Reply

At 1/11/15 05:49 PM, Lundsfryd wrote: I got a review from the person as well. He had posted 65 identical "watwatwat" reviews. What a strange waste of time.

he might be calling you a twat, Lun :X


A rather disgusting-looking git that should have been disposed of ages ago.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-12 01:41:27 Reply

At 1/11/15 11:39 AM, CypressDahlia wrote: So uhh can someone do something about a user named tdafgt. I read one of his "reviews" on Alvin's latest work and decided to look into it. Apparently he only speaks this language.

It's probably chav for "live long and prosper".

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-12 03:15:39 Reply

At 1/11/15 07:07 PM, test-object wrote:
At 1/11/15 05:49 PM, Lundsfryd wrote: I got a review from the person as well. He had posted 65 identical "watwatwat" reviews. What a strange waste of time.
he might be calling you a twat, Lun :X

Haha... Of course! I totally did not see that. I suppose I should be glad as it would seem that I still have some of my child-like innocense :P


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CypressDahlia
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-14 11:54:16 Reply

Haha I think that user got pissy that I posted that here. He just went ahead and zero bombed every piece of art in my gallery for the past two days.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-14 15:15:10 Reply

At 1/14/15 11:54 AM, CypressDahlia wrote: Haha I think that user got pissy that I posted that here. He just went ahead and zero bombed every piece of art in my gallery for the past two days.

Seems like a bit of a twat(watwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwatwat).

CypressDahlia
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-14 15:20:21 Reply

haha yeah. These days I'm kinda thankful for these types of people as they will be responsible for a very, very long overdue and necessary overhaul to the voting system.

bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-14 17:04:50 Reply

At 1/14/15 03:20 PM, CypressDahlia wrote: haha yeah. These days I'm kinda thankful for these types of people as they will be responsible for a very, very long overdue and necessary overhaul to the voting system.

Woah, I just realized you came back :O

Awesome! It's nice to see some old faces :)

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-14 18:06:57 (edited 2015-01-14 18:07:18) Reply

Haha yup. I spent a year working with a lot of big names. But now I'm back and still as obnoxiously vocal as I've always been. A lot of pros told me the worst part about me is how much shit I talk but I told them I thought art was about personality.

bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-14 23:35:45 Reply

At 1/14/15 06:06 PM, CypressDahlia wrote: Haha yup. I spent a year working with a lot of big names. But now I'm back and still as obnoxiously vocal as I've always been. A lot of pros told me the worst part about me is how much shit I talk but I told them I thought art was about personality.

Really? You're a shit talker?
Never felt that way to me...

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-15 01:18:29 Reply

At 1/14/15 11:35 PM, bigjonny13 wrote: Really? You're a shit talker?
Never felt that way to me...

Yeah, if anything I always filed you under "too-polite-to-express-his-clearly-vehement-feelings" .


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CypressDahlia
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-15 09:05:52 Reply

Apparently when you start developing a (quote, unquote) professional following--and this is strange because I don't consider myself a professional at all, just a person who has worked with professionals--you basically have to become ideologically mute. Since I've been exploring my options outside of Newgrounds, I've had people adding me on Facebook in droves and I have to constantly put out disclaimers that it's a personal Facebook and not a professional one. Professional Facebooks are completely sterile. No opinions, just art. I don't ever see myself living that way.

I guess, as you become more recognized, you also become a greater focus of public scrutiny. So people are afraid to offend. I personally don't care what the public has to say. Which is why I've always been pissy about Portal standards and ratings because it's part of a global pandemic of consumer-despotism. We are letting consumers control everything. The entire portal is based on standards indirectly set by non-artists (thru view counts and ratings), which is why quality control is so difficult.

I mean even when I had like 800 fans on NG, people got pissy whenever I wrote impassioned or angry things on my page. Like honestly, the concept of "fandom" is entirely inverted these days. You figure people become your fans because they respect you, but in actuality they demand YOUR respect to the point where their feelings come before your expression.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-15 17:11:56 Reply

At 1/15/15 09:05 AM, CypressDahlia wrote: but in actuality they demand YOUR respect to the point where their feelings come before your expression.

Or they become fans because you draw boobs ;D

inkveins
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-15 22:15:22 Reply

At 1/14/15 03:20 PM, CypressDahlia wrote: haha yeah. These days I'm kinda thankful for these types of people as they will be responsible for a very, very long overdue and necessary overhaul to the voting system.

Such is the issue with representing a complex opinion numerically. It gives them credence to the thought that they have power over you.


Sweet glow on that JO, bro. Must have been a lot of positive energy at the sesh.
-DA-Tumblr-

CypressDahlia
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-16 07:42:04 (edited 2015-01-16 07:43:24) Reply

At 1/15/15 10:15 PM, inkveins wrote:
Such is the issue with representing a complex opinion numerically. It gives them credence to the thought that they have power over you.

And that's what the reviews are for. Except the people who vote down your art never leave reviews. That's because "voting down" on Newgrounds has become less a tough-love method for offering criticism and more an egotistical method for exerting control.

Given I've posted my share of controversial opinions, I've dealt with a good number "serial 0 bombers". Hasn't stopped me, though.

And yeah jonny haha. It's weird when you do like half and half. People get thrown off. I find that a lot of people who like my SFW art really really don't like it when I draw NSFW stuff. And people who like my NSFW stuff are more critical of my SFW stuff. It's a weird dynamic.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-16 12:12:02 Reply

At 1/16/15 07:42 AM, CypressDahlia wrote: Good Points

Yeah, in theory anyways. I've always found it odd that there are two rating systems in the first place.


Sweet glow on that JO, bro. Must have been a lot of positive energy at the sesh.
-DA-Tumblr-

radiodark
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-16 13:15:06 Reply

At 1/15/15 09:05 AM, CypressDahlia wrote: The entire portal is based on standards indirectly set by non-artists (thru view counts and ratings), which is why quality control is so difficult.

Not exactly? The primary form of quality control exerted over the portal is the scouting system, definitely run by artists. Do you really care about ratings and page views? You're so skilled I'd think you could rest confident in that respect.


I mean even when I had like 800 fans on NG, people got pissy whenever I wrote impassioned or angry things on my page.

Any set of 800 is statistically bound to have some assholes.


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Daverom
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-16 14:13:56 (edited 2015-01-16 14:19:01) Reply

At 1/16/15 01:15 PM, lovingthedark wrote: Not exactly? The primary form of quality control exerted over the portal is the scouting system, definitely run by artists. Do you really care about ratings and page views? You're so skilled I'd think you could rest confident in that respect.

I think he means quality control of the rating system.
I've never particularly liked the number system, on newgrounds or otherwise. I'd even like them removed from reviews in general and make them strictly text, but I know I'm probably in the minority on that. But for the flash portal it was a necessary evil to have some kind of quality control, even though it could be abused when the community was smaller. But I don't understand why it exists in any other part of the site. There's no real reason other than it's just what the flash portal did.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-16 15:23:50 (edited 2015-01-16 15:34:01) Reply

At 1/16/15 01:15 PM, lovingthedark wrote:
Not exactly? The primary form of quality control exerted over the portal is the scouting system, definitely run by artists.

The scouting system by its nature is very hard to keep track of and really only offers control if you use it at all. The thing about the scouting system is that it's not useful for enforcement. You scout something you like. It's purely positive reinforcement. Surely enough, you can unscout them, but only because you scouted them in the first place. There are no tools that allow us to maintain a standard. We only get to very subtly hint at things we want to see. And it's so far out of our hands by the time we've scouted our first person that I'd say calling it quality control is very generous.

Views and ratings don't matter to me personally. What I meant by that is the ratings given by the public indirectly affect what kind of work artists feel validated doing. It shows what kind of work is respected or expected on the site as a whole. And the view counts actually push work onto the front page of the portal, so that becomes kind of a reference point for what kind of club we're running.

And I'm comparing this to places like Artstation or Draw Crowd. I know it's a very unfair comparison, but over in those places being noticed by someone of high skill level actually means something. Getting a frontpage actually means something. Over here, we have one indistinct mass of "scouted" users who are responsible for quality control, where a small percentage of them are a much higher skill level and should therefore have more leverage.

But I understand NG tries its best to be democratic in a sense. But this is also the reason there is so much voting abuse. Because we've let people who never contribute jack shit to the site feel entitled to the same volume as those who have done much. It's "fair", but not meritocratic.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-16 17:20:39 (edited 2015-01-16 17:22:29) Reply

At 1/16/15 03:23 PM, CypressDahlia wrote: The scouting system by its nature is very hard to keep track of and really only offers control if you use it at all. The thing about the scouting system is that it's not useful for enforcement.

I used the scouting system a decent bit even before I was modded, and I generally find it quite effective on the whole. Compare the average level of quality between scouted and unscouted sections- it's a fairly different across the board. Plus it rewards artists for working to improve themselves pretty palpably while not excluding people just for being middling skill-wise. Granted the checks and balances fall mostly on the mod team, but I wouldn't change that.

There are no tools that allow us to maintain a standard.

You can talk to a mod if there's someone you feel is sub-par that we haven't caught yet.

Views and ratings don't matter to me personally.

Your most recent journal post says otherwise pretty emphatically.

What I meant by that is the ratings given by the public indirectly affect what kind of work artists feel validated doing. It shows what kind of work is respected or expected on the site as a whole.

You cater pretty well to the NG mold, I'd say tits, fanart, mechs and monsters and all. Is that not what speaks to you?

front page of the portal

We're working on this, I swear.

Over here, we have one indistinct mass of "scouted" users who are responsible for quality control, where a small percentage of them are a much higher skill level and should therefore have more leverage.

So you're saying people should have what, more voting power based on followers or their own vote power or something? How would you structure this?


It's "fair", but not meritocratic.

I'm pretty okay with that. I don't particularly feel that my enjoyment of a piece, however trained and specialized over however many years of practice and schooling, is any more valid than a non-artist's. The best way to improve a composition or fix your values is not the only kind of useful information you can get from a review- I had a professor once that used to run critiques stripped of the intention to improve physical form of a piece. Instead she'd have us go in a circle, first saying whatever popped into our heads when we saw the piece, then again expressing what it makes us think of, what it made us feel. Definitely some of the most useful feedback I received in college, and hardly something you need artistic training for.

Who do you want to serve with your art?


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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-16 19:55:51 (edited 2015-01-16 20:08:35) Reply

At 1/16/15 05:20 PM, lovingthedark wrote:
Your most recent journal post says otherwise pretty emphatically.

All of my journal entries are about voting injustices (they have been since like 2012). Most of them are defending other artists. I'm just very annoyed with voting abuse/disregard for critical artistic evaluation in general. And very displeased at how art has become a commodity to many people. It's something that's not limited to Newgrounds, but particularly prevalent here.

You cater pretty well to the NG mold, I'd say tits, fanart, mechs and monsters and all. Is that not what speaks to you?

I mean 90% of my work isn't on NG and the work that is on NG, maybe only 50% of it was meant for NG specifically. A lot of what I post is just runoff from groups like Brainstorm and Daily Spitpaint, or portfolio pieces that I didn't mind posting. I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but NG isn't like...my life. It never was, not from the day I joined. I have 1,000 fans and honestly I feel nothing. 95% of these people just eat my work like candy. That's all it is to them. Candy.

So you're saying people should have what, more voting power based on followers...

I wouldn't say voting power. That would be too elitist. I would say just allow users to be scouted multiple times and keep a count of how many times they've been scouted. Put a star next to their name or something. It's simple and it shows how much merit a person has based on their skill level, as evaluated by other scouted users (who are, presumably, artists). It allows people who are actually thinking critically about art to honor users they respect, and distinguishes thorough, critical opinions from ambiguous masses of votes.

Who do you want to serve with your art?

My landlord. TBH, I serve nobody with my art except maybe a client. But what it comes down to is artists being able to set standards for their own communities. Places like DrawCrowd and ArtStation pull it off, and therefore boast an incredibly high level of skill. This is because they haven't fallen into the trappings of subjectivity. Art is very unique in that way. It is the only industry where consumers 100% of the time place their opinions above those of experts. You don't get that in any other skilled trade. But with art, everyone is thoroughly convinced that their opinion is paramount to all standards of skill or merit. And with that line of thinking, you lose all sense of structure. Everything becomes this subjective mush that can't be evaluated. All sense of progression is lost. Skill becomes meaningless. It just becomes "like it or don't".

And as long as people are convinced that art is simply something for them to like or dislike, not a part of an artist's journey, not a representation of skill or progression in the understanding of a science, it won't ever be respected here like it is elsewhere.

PS: as for my latest journal post, I'm just being a provocative dick. If I cared about my ratings I would have just stored my art in the "trash" like I said and restored it at a different point. I wouldn't have openly reported the TWATWATWAT user in the thread, out of fear of being targeted (because if they had the time to do that, the probably have the time to do this). I have no interest in "saving" my ratings. Many of those paintings have been +1'd by people like James Paick and John Park, so I already know what they're worth. It's just me being immature.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-17 00:00:34 (edited 2015-01-17 00:03:08) Reply

At 1/16/15 07:55 PM, CypressDahlia wrote: And very displeased at how art has become a commodity to many people.

Art has been a commodity for millennia. What are you talking about?


I mean 90% of my work isn't on NG and the work that is on NG, maybe only 50% of it was meant for NG specifically. A lot of what I post is just runoff from groups like Brainstorm and Daily Spitpaint, or portfolio pieces that I didn't mind posting. I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but NG isn't like...my life. It never was, not from the day I joined.
I have 1,000 fans and honestly I feel nothing.

That's super sad, you spending time here when you don't enjoy us at all. I hate to say you should leave since I take pleasure in your art, have a lot of respect for you, and like pointing you out as an example of anime-inspired work done right, but why don't you leave? I mean clearly you've been fairly gone for months, but you came back. Why?

For instance, I'm here since I like dick jokes, like the opportunity to help other artists, and I'm eternally amused by the dichotomy created by the population of sixteen year olds thinking with their genitalia and the population of skilled, charming twenty or thirty something year olds bitter about the sixteen year olds thinking with their genitalia that they used to number among. It's hilarious to me. Plus NG has a much better sense of community than dA, I like the scouting system, and people aren't too snobby. And as an artist forever in pursuit of gesamtkunstwerk, I enjoy NG's multimedia focus.

95% of these people just eat my work like candy. That's all it is to them. Candy.

What sort of consumption do you expect? Normally that turn of phrase is a complement. IMHO, I'd describe your work as technically brilliant but not terribly interesting/innovative content-wise. A heavy tendency towards straightforward contemporary digital illustration- candy is maybe a good metaphor? I wouldn't put it so negatively though.


I would say just allow users to be scouted multiple times and keep a count of how many times they've been scouted. Put a star next to their name or something. It's simple and it shows how much merit a person has based on their skill level, as evaluated by other scouted users (who are, presumably, artists). It allows people who are actually thinking critically about art to honor users they respect, and distinguishes thorough, critical opinions from ambiguous masses of votes.

Hmm, interesting.


My landlord. TBH, I serve nobody with my art except maybe a client.

Not even yourself? Why did you choose art over engineering? I ask because you sound pretty unhappy with your chosen profession, only finding fulfillment in external recognition. That sounds like a terrible way to live, but what do I know.

And with that line of thinking, you lose all sense of structure. Everything becomes this subjective mush that can't be evaluated.

I'd say art is a subjective mush whose evaluation doesn't translate well between individuals. That's what so glorious about it. You do realize you're complaining simultaneously that art is both seen as too much of a product on Newgrounds and not enough of one?


If I cared about my ratings I would have just stored my art in the "trash" like I said and restored it at a different point. I wouldn't have openly reported the TWATWATWAT user in the thread, out of fear of being targeted (because if they had the time to do that, the probably have the time to do this). I have no interest in "saving" my ratings.
Many of those paintings have been +1'd by people like James Paick and John Park, so I already know what they're worth.

What a big e-peen you have. Call me old-fashioned, but what happened to evaluating your stuff yourself? Have some faith in your own opinion. You've worked hard, you're allowed to take personal pride in it.


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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-17 01:57:22 Reply

At 1/17/15 12:00 AM, lovingthedark wrote:
Art has been a commodity for millennia.

Art wasn't accessible to everyone 1,000 years ago, though.

That's super sad, you spending time here when you don't enjoy us at all.

I like this place. That's why I'm here. That's why I'm saying what I'm saying. I imagine Newgrounds becoming something much bigger and better than this in the near future. The Voting Overhaul is a first step in that direction. Just because I'm suggesting change doesn't mean I dislike NG.

What sort of consumption do you expect?

While I was away, I experienced a real sense of community among professionals. Granted, my art wasn't always well received, but even the harshest critics spoke from a good place. Here, I get plenty of good ratings. I also get shit on from time to time. But neither the good ratings or the zero-bombs ever come with a caring, thoughtful insight on how I can be a better artist tomorrow. There is this palpable disconnect between the art and the artist.

You do realize you're complaining simultaneously that art is both seen as too much of a product on Newgrounds and not enough of one?

That's not really what I was getting at. Many artists on Newgrounds have dreams of working. There is an objective skillset that will get you work. What NG lacks is the understanding and desire to help artists achieve that goal. This involves perceiving art as an extension of its creator and steps in a long process of improvement, not just individual products to be consumed. Objective standards are needed to understand our goals, a nurturing community is needed to realize them. A skill structure gives us a sense of direction. It allows us to observe how much closer we are to matching strokes with people like Craig Mullins, who can walk into any studio and demand work.

What a big e-peen you have. Call me old-fashioned, but what happened to evaluating your stuff yourself?

I always assume that my opinion is tainted with bias. And I really do have a big e-peen haha. Kinda comes with territory, I guess. That's what happens with artists on Newgrounds, though. They eventually move on to measure themselves against more rigorous standards. I just came back because I have so much hope for this place.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-17 02:13:05 Reply

At 1/17/15 01:57 AM, CypressDahlia wrote: I always assume that my opinion is tainted with bias. And I really do have a big e-peen haha. Kinda comes with territory, I guess. That's what happens with artists on Newgrounds, though. They eventually move on to measure themselves against more rigorous standards. I just came back because I have so much hope for this place.

There's always going to be bias. There are many different worlds out there, and we can't compare one to another. Newgrounds has always been growing, but you should never expect the same realm as you would somewhere else. It's a different environment, different people, different personalities, different thoughts.

The forum used to be a great way to get those reviews you're talking about, the ones with structure and information and guidelines and construction, it just fell apart bit by bit as we lost many of the faces who would put the time and effort into leaving those critiques.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-19 19:13:10 Reply

Woah, hey some heavy stuff going on here as of late.

damn, I don't want to throw a fork in the road of conversation, but Yay! its my B-day :D

BTW Cypress, I do like your work, and still watch for it to pop on to my feed from time to time.


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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2015-01-19 20:18:50 Reply

Happy birthday, dude.


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