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M-Maher
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 03:08 PM Reply

My uncles art: a contrast to mine.

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Decky
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 03:22 PM Reply

At 1/31/13 03:08 PM, M-Maher wrote: My uncles art: a contrast to mine.

Looks cool dude. I like the whole celtic feel to it, he has got talent.


I said no to drugs but they just wouldn't listen.
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JamSession
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 03:24 PM Reply

At 1/29/13 09:29 PM, Escalus wrote:
At 1/29/13 09:22 PM, ornery wrote: Onto better subjects.

This thing is fucking awesome, and hurts my brain. Damn time limit. Would be easy as hell to get all perfects if you weren't so rushed.
7.3

I got a 9.2 first go :D
Hard to use though, I'll try again later


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Sockembop
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 04:46 PM Reply

At 1/31/13 12:40 AM, J-qb wrote:

Again, I completely understand that you'd like to make money making art, but I have a problem with poeple thinking they OUGHT TO be able to make money with their art.

I don't think anyone is thinking you OUGHT TO be able to make money with their art. But if you aren't capable of doing it yourself and want someone to make art for you, you OUGHT TO expect to pay for it.

I guess that is what Lintire, in his ever so sympathetic wordings, was talking about. When you claim you ought to be able to make money with your art you are subversing art under money, which is what is happening to everything everywhere and it's ruining our society.
Still if it's only your art you are treating this way, that's fine with me, I'll just stop calling it art. However, when you start preaching that everyone should do so is to claim that art is essentially subversed to money - which, to me, is insulting.

I find your way of thinking insulting. You are claiming that it is more worthy of respect to do art when you are not doing it for money. So essentially, from your point of view, good art should cost $0 to minus infinity and anything worth more than $0 is bad art. You are saying that the dollar cost of viewing or owning art determines its credibility rather than the artistic merit determining its credibility. I think it's the other way around. The credibility should be determined by the creativity, emotivity, technique, etc. and if the art is to be sold dollar value should come from the piece's credibility and merits. Therefore art > money. You have it backwards my friend.


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Morthagg
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 06:59 PM Reply

Um..
I already feel bad for this in general, but am I the only one that actually makes better art and tries to experiment more when given an assignment or asked for a commision? For instance, I have made some of my best pieces for newgrounds contests, and I have tried techniques that I previously avoided while drawing for a paying customer. I seem to get a lot of inspiration and drive from the idea of competition and a clear direction in which to work, and I find it kind of sad that people would lose respect for others who work their best work in similar conditions and like to get paid for it.

Also, I don't get the problem with people that think they ought to be able to make money with their art. I studied it for Darwin's sake, my mother put a ton of money in my education, but since mine involves drawing instead of calculus, I should be serving the higher power of art instead of expecting people to acknowledge my skills and pay me like they would any other supplier of services?
I plan to make money with my art, I like getting paid for what I find fun to do, I like working for people by making stuff for them all the while improving myself and taking myself to points I never thought I would reach on my own. And I don't think anyone should think less of anyone for making their job out of what they love.

J-qb
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 09:55 PM Reply

At 1/31/13 06:59 PM, Morthagg wrote: Um..
I already feel bad for this in general, but am I the only one that actually makes better art and tries to experiment more when given an assignment or asked for a commision? For instance, I have made some of my best pieces for newgrounds contests, and I have tried techniques that I previously avoided while drawing for a paying customer. I seem to get a lot of inspiration and drive from the idea of competition and a clear direction in which to work, and I find it kind of sad that people would lose respect for others who work their best work in similar conditions and like to get paid for it.
Also, I don't get the problem with people that think they ought to be able to make money with their art. I studied it for Darwin's sake, my mother put a ton of money in my education, but since mine involves drawing instead of calculus, I should be serving the higher power of art instead of expecting people to acknowledge my skills and pay me like they would any other supplier of services?
I plan to make money with my art, I like getting paid for what I find fun to do, I like working for people by making stuff for them all the while improving myself and taking myself to points I never thought I would reach on my own. And I don't think anyone should think less of anyone for making their job out of what they love.

Let me get this straight: I don't think less of anyone for wanting to make money with their art, just like I don't think less of someone for not being a war-hero; I'd respect him more if he was a war-hero, but I don't hold it against him.
Second: I think we're talking about different forms of "ought to". There's ought to in a practical sense (as in should) and ought to in a moral sense. I think poeple should be able to make money with art, I don't however think poeple are entitled to be able to in a way that it imposes a demand on other poeple.

At 1/31/13 04:46 PM, Sockembop wrote: I don't think anyone is thinking you OUGHT TO be able to make money with their art. But if you aren't capable of doing it yourself and want someone to make art for you, you OUGHT TO expect to pay for it.

Did you watch that video lucky linked? it wasn't directed at poeple posting requests.

I find your way of thinking insulting. You are claiming that it is more worthy of respect to do art when you are not doing it for money. So essentially, from your point of view, good art should cost $0 to minus infinity and anything worth more than $0 is bad art. You are saying that the dollar cost of viewing or owning art determines its credibility rather than the artistic merit determining its credibility. I think it's the other way around. The credibility should be determined by the creativity, emotivity, technique, etc. and if the art is to be sold dollar value should come from the piece's credibility and merits. Therefore art > money. You have it backwards my friend.

I never claimed art should be free, I think you shouldn't want to put a price tag on art. Exactly because the value of art can't be expressed in money. When you say you ought to be able to make a living with art you are thereby giving your art a price tag of "minimum x dollars" where x is the amount of money you need to get around. This is where the value of art is expressed in money.


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Lintire
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 10:13 PM Reply

At 1/31/13 06:59 PM, Morthagg wrote: Um..
I already feel bad for this in general, but am I the only one that actually makes better art and tries to experiment more when given an assignment or asked for a commision?

Yep.
You're the only one who has ever tried to improve.

Leonardo Da Vinci famously mooned people who ever dared try to commision his art, and I think most of us like to try and emulate that by dancing on a cam naked for 40 seconds and posting the recorded videos in activity threads. In fact these days I don't even do requests, I just fart on my tablet and let them have a whiff.

It's a good life.

Aigis
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Jan. 31st, 2013 @ 10:16 PM Reply

At 1/31/13 12:40 AM, J-qb wrote: I can totally see why you'd want to make a career out of art, but I respect it more if poeple did art because of the art rather than to make money.

I respect people who try to make a career doing what they love.


Aigis - Putting the 'ai' back in 'Aigis'.

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Kumakun4
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 12:08 AM Reply

I think what JQB is trying to say is that he personally thinks that making money because you love to draw is much better than drawing because you love to make money.
I believe he's also trying to say that just because your philosophy is the latter, does not give you the right to impose that philosophy on everyone else trying to make a career with their talent.

From what I understand, he's also saying that, if you make an price offer to someone making an art request and that someone else shows up and offers something for free, and the one who made the request chooses him over you, then you did not get your "job" stolen. You were simply beaten by someone who made a better offer than you did. Which means the one who made the request is either a cheapskate or you're too high class. Or you're overvaluing your talent.

I just hope this clarifies things, as I don't disagree at all with JQB.


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Daverom
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 01:11 AM Reply

I'd imagine not many artists draw for long enough to be successful with the only motivation being to make money. especially when there are much better and easier ways to make money.
Becoming an artist to make money sounds like going to a desert to swim

Sockembop
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 01:29 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 12:08 AM, Kumakun4 wrote: I think what JQB is trying to say is that he personally thinks that making money because you love to draw is much better than drawing because you love to make money.
I believe he's also trying to say that just because your philosophy is the latter, does not give you the right to impose that philosophy on everyone else trying to make a career with their talent.

From what I understand, he's also saying that, if you make an price offer to someone making an art request and that someone else shows up and offers something for free, and the one who made the request chooses him over you, then you did not get your "job" stolen. You were simply beaten by someone who made a better offer than you did. Which means the one who made the request is either a cheapskate or you're too high class. Or you're overvaluing your talent.

I just hope this clarifies things, as I don't disagree at all with JQB.

But this is all just wrong. You can't look at a painting and determine how much the artist charged for it, if anything at all. You either like it or you don't. The reason for the painting doesn't matter. Doing art for free doesn't make your art better, doesn't make you a better artist, and doesn't make you more deserving of respect.

There is nothing wrong with doing art for free. Doing art for free is great. What is not so great is when people have the expectation that just because someone likes to do art that they are willing to devote their time to someone else's project with no compensation just because.

Saying that you have more respect for someone who does art because they enjoy it than someone who made a career out of it is just some hardcore art snobbery bs. If you really cared about art you would just it based on the art itself not the motivation behind it.


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Lintire
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 01:44 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 01:11 AM, M-Vero wrote: Becoming an artist to make money sounds like going to a desert to swim

As in you wake up in the middle of nowhere with a dry mouth, sore muscles and itching in places you don't even want to acknowledge?

Sounds about right.

J-qb
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 02:38 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 01:29 AM, Sockembop wrote: But this is all just wrong. You can't look at a painting and determine how much the artist charged for it, if anything at all.

Right, that's just what I said, you can't express the true value of art in dollars; yet that is what the artist did when he sold the piece isn't it? Again, I'll keep repeating myself, I don't hold this against the artist; I see his reasons for doing so. What I think is regrettable is that we live in a world where these reasons play a role. What I think is offensive is that some poeple want to make these reasons into absolute reasons.

You either like it or you don't. The reason for the painting doesn't matter. Doing art for free doesn't make your art better, doesn't make you a better artist, and doesn't make you more deserving of respect.

Even if I were to agree with all this - which I don't - it is of no relevance to my point, which Kumakun, thanks for that, tried to clarify, but which you just seem to keep missing.

There is nothing wrong with doing art for free. Doing art for free is great.

So we agree on that, my entire point was that there is nothing wrong with doing art for free; I was making that point against the guy who said that there was something wrong with doing art for free - that was the entire scope of my argument. I understand that you may not agree with some of the points I made, but perhaps if you saw them in the light of the point I was trying to make instead of some isolated sentences you'd understand where I'm coming from.

What is not so great is when people have the expectation that just because someone likes to do art that they are willing to devote their time to someone else's project with no compensation just because.

No one is fucking contesting this.

Saying that you have more respect for someone who does art because they enjoy it than someone who made a career out of it is just some hardcore art snobbery bs. If you really cared about art you would just it based on the art itself not the motivation behind it.

I already admitted to being an idealist. I have tried to stay away from the whole "what is art?" discussion because I know I can't formulate a definition that satisfies it's complexity. However; claiming that thought, motivation, idea or (intended) meaning have no significance whatsoever to art is, in my opinion, bullshit. You are saying that what probably amounts to the majority of the poeple who think about art - among all the various definitions of what it is, there might indeed be one which does deny these aspects of art - does not really care about art.

Yet you have the guts to call me a "hardcore art snob".


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Carrion
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 04:32 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 02:38 AM, Everyone wrote:
Multiple walls of text here and there.

Fuck art.

#Real shit.

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Morthagg
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 04:39 AM Reply

At 1/31/13 10:13 PM, Lintire wrote:
Yep.
You're the only one who has ever tried to improve.

Leonardo Da Vinci famously mooned people who ever dared try to commision his art, and I think most of us like to try and emulate that by dancing on a cam naked for 40 seconds and posting the recorded videos in activity threads. In fact these days I don't even do requests, I just fart on my tablet and let them have a whiff.

It's a good life.

Sweetpea, the point really flew miles over your head here, didn't it. I get stuck at drawing the same thing over and over if I don't have an outside source that asks something specific of me. It's getting better lately, but I seem to be surrounded by folks that whip up new styles, new works and new ideas with only themselves as a motivation and through careful observation I have come to the conclusion that I might have some trouble doing the same. Eh?

Lintire
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 04:42 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 01:29 AM, Sockembop wrote: But this is all just wrong. You can't look at a painting and determine how much the artist charged for it, if anything at all.

Sure you can. Human capitol and all that.

At 2/1/13 04:32 AM, Captain-Carrion wrote: Fuck art.
#Real shit.

Gnarly, motherfuck.

#Darksiders2
J-qb
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 04:51 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 04:42 AM, Lintire wrote: Sure you can. Human capitol and all that.

I'd genuinely prefer to have the right one rather than the more expensive ones


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Lintire
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 04:53 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 04:39 AM, Morthagg wrote: Sweetpea, the point really flew miles over your head here, didn't it.

If this was a game of warm/cold then you'd be sweating it in Death Valley while I was in the middle of Antartica beating my head against a frozen fucking tundra. The point was in an entire other fucking continent while I was tapping my feet and rocking out to the tune of Deliverance as played by my new dickcicle and matching nutcubes.

It's like, it turns out I was in the same boat all along, but I misinterpreted the statement so wildly I cocked a gun, held me hostage against myself, tripped and fell into the coldest fucking river on earth (we're still in Antartica for this analogy) and shot myself in the foot for good measure.

Yeah, it flew pretty fucking high overhead.

Lintire
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 04:57 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 04:51 AM, J-qb wrote:
At 2/1/13 04:42 AM, Lintire wrote: Sure you can. Human capitol and all that.
I'd genuinely prefer to have the right one rather than the more expensive ones

Won't hold that against you. My own impending tattoo looks like it was done in MS Paint. Which is fucking funny, and I don't care who says otherwise.

You can tell which one would *probably* (accounting for the fact that they might have been blackmailed into it) cost more, though.

Daverom
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 05:07 AM Reply

I can't think of a lion this thing couldn't replace and instantly make better.
20 bucks well spent

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test-object
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 05:21 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 04:51 AM, J-qb wrote:
At 2/1/13 04:42 AM, Lintire wrote: Sure you can. Human capitol and all that.
I'd genuinely prefer to have the right one rather than the more expensive ones

What Jasper said. It's the only one that says:
"I'm not spending my entire savings on a fucking tattoo. People will get the fucking idea."

+ it looks like the best conversation piece out of all 3.


A rather disgusting-looking git that should have been disposed of ages ago.

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Decky
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 05:33 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 04:57 AM, Lintire wrote:
At 2/1/13 04:51 AM, J-qb wrote: I'd genuinely prefer to have the right one rather than the more expensive ones
Won't hold that against you. My own impending tattoo looks like it was done in MS Paint. Which is fucking funny, and I don't care who says otherwise.

I've got a few and I always go to this quite expensive tattoo artist that works in a local studio. In my opinion it is well worth the money. Think I've payed a total of around 800 pound on 4 complete tats and one on the way.


I said no to drugs but they just wouldn't listen.
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J-qb
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 05:43 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 05:07 AM, M-Vero wrote: I can't think of a lion this thing couldn't replace and instantly make better.
20 bucks well spent

Yes this is a better topic

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J-qb
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 06:14 AM Reply

Hello

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Daverom
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 07:18 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 05:43 AM, J-qb wrote: Yes this is a better topic

fucking majestic.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 07:24 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 05:43 AM, J-qb wrote: Yes this is a better topic

Just think how fantastic things would look on low budgets!

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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 07:45 AM Reply

At 2/1/13 05:43 AM, J-qb wrote: Yes this is a better topic

Thunder thunder thundercats HO!

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Carrion
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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 08:31 AM Reply

Marital rape, also known as spousal rape, is non-consensual sex in which the perpetrator is the victim's spouse. As such, it is a form of partner rape, of domestic violence, and of sexual abuse. Historically, and still in some countries, consent was assumed within the marriage contract, thus making spousal rape an impossibility; however, spousal rape is now repudiated by international conventions and increasingly criminalized. In 2006, it was estimated that marital rape could be prosecuted in at least 104 countries (in four of these countries, marital rape could be prosecuted only when the spouses were judicially separated),[29] and since 2006 several other countries have outlawed spousal rape. In the US, spousal rape is illegal in all 50 states; the first state to outlaw it was South Dakota in 1975,[30] and the last North Carolina in 1993.[31] Other developing countries outlawed it in the 2000s. In many countries, it is not clear if marital rape may or may not be prosecuted under ordinary rape laws. However, in the absence of a spousal rape law it may be possible to bring prosecutions for what is effectively rape by characterizing it as an assault.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 1st, 2013 @ 04:04 PM Reply

At 2/1/13 07:45 AM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Thunder thunder thundercats HO!

Actually, upon another look at the lion tattoo face, it reminds me a lot of the Goldeneye game face.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge Feb. 2nd, 2013 @ 05:01 AM Reply

Sorry for going off topic, but I am so happy this all vs me war has faded. I assume you most have a quite neutral view on me now, but correct me if I am wrong.

Anyways, thanks for the cease fire... AND I AM SO DAMN SORRY ABOUT WHAT I DID. Sorry for being such a prat, such a prick, such a dickbitch or whatever you want to call me. Sorry for donating to your contest with the intention of social engineering which I failed so hard at it could become a joke story, although I also had feelings of debt. Sorry for being so cocky, sorry for offending you guys.

And thanks for the time on the stickam chat... although I only have memories of tilting my nose up the sky, whining, showing off and suffering, but I also had some fun I gotta say. Just... thanks for everything guys. You have showed me something important, and that is... I need more respect for folks. Turkeyonastick, youre a big role model.

All in all I have to admit I got what I deserved. I used to think I was right, but I realized a while ago its the total opposite. And today, I felt more fluid in my way to express myself properly, so I decided to type this. I tried my best and I hope you will forgive me, because I dont want to be pictured as the one I was before.