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Ashman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:55:36 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:44 PM, Captain-Ben wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:31 PM, ashman112 wrote: no its an art forum room now people get in here while people are still active
Too good for the normal NG stickam room? Stop being snooty and go mingle with people who aren't from the art forum.

i did once but it wasnt a fun experience, i check in there every so often, but i never say anything

Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:57:22 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:51 PM, ornery wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:12 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: Actually when you mentioned this I thought you were going to go in to the animation aspect of artwork.
The difference with animation and movies is that they tend to be group efforts anyway, so no one person generally gets credit. Even in movies where people tend to credit a particular actor or director as being the main driving force of the movie, there is still a giant credits list where all those involved get mentioned, either directly or indirectly.

With these artists they are getting works tied directly to their name with maybe a special thanks blurb at the most if they are feeling generous. It would be like Tarantino taking 100% credit for all aspects of Kill Bill (which i wouldnt put past him if he could get away with it). But with movies this could never happen because its widely known that they take massive teams of people to make. Artworks however that are generally a single man project are a different story. If you involve someone else in your work is it really just yours? How would you feel as the assistant to some sculptor, and you assembled the entire thing they just told you where stuff went, but you cant ever tell people that its "your work" because A. no one would believe you and B. there is no mention of you anywhere.

I'm not considering just single people getting the credit for a film or animation, but a single company, It's the exact same thing your talking about but on just a much larger scale......

but agree in the fact that everyone should get credit for a compilation work, be it paintings or a movie.

Shared victory, shared defeat

Btw Ben people outside the art forum are weird...

I mean yeah we are pretty weird ourselves.... but we keep it in check....sort of....

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Captain
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 00:09:42 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:57 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: Btw Ben people outside the art forum are weird...
I mean yeah we are pretty weird ourselves.... but we keep it in check....sort of....

sounds snooty to me


Look at my art!

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bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 00:12:45 Reply

Lol Luis is in our Stickam room.

ornery
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 02:02:09 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:57 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: I'm not considering just single people getting the credit for a film or animation, but a single company, It's the exact same thing your talking about but on just a much larger scale......

I dont see whats wrong with a company taking credit for an animation, because a company is a bodiless entity that is comprised of all the people who work for it. All those people who work on an animation are paid and hired by the company to do something that is meant to be collaborative. The company isnt taking credit for peoples work, its simplifying the identity process, because the people who make the thing and work the thing are collectively represented by the company name and logo. If you work for Pixar, all you need to do is say "I work for Pixar" and people will immediately associate you with whatever projects Pixar does. They wont think you did everything, but through the name they understand that you played a role.
If however you say "I work for Richard Serra" people will smile and nod and NOT acknowledge that you may have played a role in the construction or fabrication of his pieces.
The company thing is closer to what newgrounds does with its collabs. The title of the collab and newgrounds will garner attention first, and your name being in the credits assures that you get the credit you deserve should you seek it. The artist thing is more similar to a collab being only credited to one author with no mention of any other users, and no co-authors, and then everyone giving all the credit to that single author.

Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 04:10:39 Reply

At 2/17/10 02:02 AM, ornery wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:57 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: I'm not considering just single people getting the credit for a film or animation, but a single company, It's the exact same thing your talking about but on just a much larger scale......
I dont see whats wrong with a company taking credit for an animation, because a company is a bodiless entity that is comprised of all the people who work for it. All those people who work on an animation are paid and hired by the company to do something that is meant to be collaborative. The company isnt taking credit for peoples work, its simplifying the identity process, because the people who make the thing and work the thing are collectively represented by the company name and logo. If you work for Pixar, all you need to do is say "I work for Pixar" and people will immediately associate you with whatever projects Pixar does. They wont think you did everything, but through the name they understand that you played a role.
If however you say "I work for Richard Serra" people will smile and nod and NOT acknowledge that you may have played a role in the construction or fabrication of his pieces.
The company thing is closer to what newgrounds does with its collabs. The title of the collab and newgrounds will garner attention first, and your name being in the credits assures that you get the credit you deserve should you seek it. The artist thing is more similar to a collab being only credited to one author with no mention of any other users, and no co-authors, and then everyone giving all the credit to that single author.

I really Don't see where outsourcing work of a animation is really any different than outsourcing your work to assistants. Sure in a credit roll the animators and artist get there credit, and I'm sure in a painting (using as an example) bio the people who assisted or the work was delegated to, get there credit just as well. Although I do admit that credits on a movie are much more easy to show than on a painting in a gallery somewhere. I would think it looked rather odd to have a giant black book beside every gallery piece detailing who did what on that particular work. But that is more of a presentation thing.

I still think that regardless of the medium that assistance work, delegated work, and outsourced work is very underplayed. I'm sure we can agree on that.

When it comes to a topic of mentioning where you work or who for, it really then comes down to fame and the conversation partners knowledge of the subject matter weather they acknowledge what you have done for the company/famous artist.


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J-qb
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 09:11:51 Reply

I think one point of interest that hasnt been mentioned about the whole outsourcing art discussion is the following:

Consider the chef of a good restaurant. He will take credit for the work of his assistants, because he taught them how to cook and he made the recipes; but he will also receive credit for the meat. He did not raise/nurture the cow, he probably didnt slaughter the cow.
The question is then, does the farmer get no recognition for his cows whatsoever? I think he does, you see, other chefs will learn about the great meat this farmer produces, and they will go to him for their meat.

You could see the asian studios as farmers; they provide 3d animation to the big companies. It doesnt really matter to them whether or not I know that the "kim jung il animation studio"

tasteless, I know

delivers good stuff, it matters that the big companies know. I pay the big companies, the big companies pay the smaller studios.

I realize that I, as a business student am predisposed to view this situation from an economic perspective; the "market" will ensure that everyone gets what he deserves.
I also realize that "name" is very important for artists if they really want to make it; but isnt that just as much the original (asian) artists responsibility?


NEVER LOOSE FAITH IN MANCUNT

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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 09:18:40 Reply

At 2/17/10 09:11 AM, J-qb wrote: he probably didnt slaughter the cow.

but wouldn't it be cool if he did.... :P

You could see the asian studios as farmers; they provide 3d animation to the big companies. It doesnt really matter to them whether or not I know that the "kim jung il animation studio"
tasteless, I know
delivers good stuff, it matters that the big companies know. I pay the big companies, the big companies pay the smaller studios.

In this sense, which I like the way you put, then it's ok for the Artist/Company/Chief to take the credit for the final product because the people who produced it were properly compensated (credit aside).


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Ashman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 09:41:12 Reply

wow the lounge is being used for a meaningful discussion, i never thought id see the day

ornery
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 12:51:22 Reply

At 2/17/10 04:10 AM, Kinsei01 wrote: I really Don't see where outsourcing work of a animation is really any different than outsourcing your work to assistants.

Because the artists tend not to mention assistants ANYWHERE, and its generally assumed that the artist did everything themselves, and its work that could be done by a single person (and is when other artists do it) but in these cases isnt. There are varying degrees of outsourcing. In the case of jeff koons and the artist couple, the artist does none of the actual visual work, all they do is open their mouth and then get credit for a visual product and NONE of the actual artists are ever mentioned or receive any credit. I am more bothered by those types than say the assistants who help prep a piece and dont receive credit, because while important the overall appearance of the piece isnt altered by their acts to much.
Another huge thing to consider is this. If the artist is capable of creating the piece, but delegates the task or set up details to others is it less bad than the artist NOT being able to actually produce the product (do to lack of skill) and delegating the elements to others. If you can paint a painting, but choose to let someone else do the underpainting, then you finish the piece and make no mention of them its not as horrible in my mind as you getting someone to make an entire piece because you lack the skills to do it then you take all the credit.

I still think that regardless of the medium that assistance work, delegated work, and outsourced work is very underplayed. I'm sure we can agree on that.

True, but when it comes to single art works that where credit only goes to one individual that is messed up. If artists who do outsource their work or rely heavily on assistants started calling themselves something like " *artist's name* collective" or " *artist's name* group/inc/and company" than at least they would be indirectly acknowledging that not all the glory goes to them, but rather them and the group they work with.

At 2/17/10 09:11 AM, J-qb wrote: Consider the chef of a good restaurant. He will take credit for the work of his assistants, because he taught them how to cook and he made the recipes; but he will also receive credit for the meat. He did not raise/nurture the cow, he probably didnt slaughter the cow.

And the painter doesnt MAKE the paints, the ingredients for food are closer to the medium and tools that an artist uses. You dont need to give credit to the paper mill (although mentioning the brands of products you use is appropriate, and chefs will do the same with brands of food and ingredients). So its not the same. As for taking credit for his assistants it goes back to the argument that he could do it, but doesnt have the time or need to when its a trivial but important task that can be delegated to someone else and not effect the overall outcome to drastically.

You could see the asian studios as farmers; they provide 3d animation to the big companies.

When its stock footage or models then credit is forsaken by the artist when they made their art public use. And if you look close in movies, they mention which studio did what, always. Artists dont mention it.

delivers good stuff, it matters that the big companies know. I pay the big companies, the big companies pay the smaller studios.

Im not saying that you as a consumer or viewer need to pay your dues to each individual. Its like you said where the employer pays the employees. In the case of the artist consider the artist as the big company and the assistants of outsourced studios as the small companies. With movies the little guy gets credit as well as payment. With artists the little guy might get paid, but they dont get credit. And not only do they not get credit, but the artists who do these types of things tend to see nothing wrong with that and will vehemently argue that the helpers don't deserve it.

bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 15:56:03 Reply

Due to the successful nature of yesterday's Stickam, lets try this again shall we?

JoeTheToucan
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 13:40:17 Reply

At 2/16/10 09:26 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: But here is my Ban Medal, again!!!

A lot better. Please wear it in public and become the next cwc


No mate, no.

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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 13:41:44 Reply

At 2/18/10 01:40 PM, JoeTheToucan wrote:
At 2/16/10 09:26 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: But here is my Ban Medal, again!!!
A lot better. Please wear it in public

will do, already super glued a safety pen to it so I can put it on my shirt!


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JoeTheToucan
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 13:45:55 Reply

Brilliant

Gawrsh it would be great if you wore that out and nothing else, pin it on your skin so people wonder how it's staying on.

You gotta strut with a smarmy face like 'yep, I'll fuckin ban you'


No mate, no.

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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 13:48:47 Reply

At 2/18/10 01:45 PM, JoeTheToucan wrote: Brilliant

Gawrsh it would be great if you wore that out and nothing else, pin it on your skin so people wonder how it's staying on.

You gotta strut with a smarmy face like 'yep, I'll fuckin ban you'

good idea with one flaw... I walk around with no clothing on and animal control gets called :(


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JoeTheToucan
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 13:50:03 Reply

At 2/18/10 01:48 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: good idea with one flaw... I walk around with no clothing on and animal control gets called :(

Still worth it


No mate, no.

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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 13:54:58 Reply

At 2/18/10 01:50 PM, JoeTheToucan wrote:
At 2/18/10 01:48 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: good idea with one flaw... I walk around with no clothing on and animal control gets called :(
Still worth it

that made me LOL.
it made me LOL hard


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TheRedGiant
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 22:46:27 Reply

Mindchamber has made this forum his bitch.

Lol, Jking....Or am I?

Anyway *Cough cough*

Lots of Pages...Lots and Lots of Pages...

I just wanted to drop by....and say.

ART RUELZ.

That is all.

Ashman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 22:48:29 Reply

At 2/18/10 10:46 PM, TheRedGiant wrote: Mindchamber has made this forum his bitch.

Lol, Jking....Or am I?

Anyway *Cough cough*

Lots of Pages...Lots and Lots of Pages...

I just wanted to drop by....and say.

ART RUELZ.

That is all.

you fail at annoying us :3

bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 22:49:56 Reply

At 2/18/10 10:46 PM, TheRedGiant wrote: That is all.

This is the Art Forum, not your parent's fridge.

Daverom
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 22:54:42 Reply

At 2/18/10 10:49 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: This is the Art Forum, not your parent's fridge.

If you are confused, please see sig for what I think he's referencing

Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 22:58:18 Reply

At 2/18/10 10:54 PM, M-Vero wrote:
At 2/18/10 10:49 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: This is the Art Forum, not your parent's fridge.
If you are confused, please see sig for what I think he's referencing

done, and done....

I get it now :D thanks G.I.Joe!

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bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-18 23:36:44 Reply

Late night Stickam round 3 anyone?

Captain
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-19 04:58:57 Reply

Captain-Ben! Late night avenger!

Better watch out!

I'll sneak into your room, make fun of you, and sleep on your floor!


Look at my art!

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CloudEater
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-19 05:09:22 Reply

At 2/19/10 04:58 AM, Captain-Ben wrote: I'll sneak into your room, make fun of you, and sleep on your floor!

Sounds like fun, don't forget to come to my house :D

Wivernryder
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-19 08:15:09 Reply

At 2/19/10 04:58 AM, Captain-Ben wrote: Captain-Ben! Late night avenger!

Better watch out!

I'll sneak into your room, make fun of you, and sleep on your floor!

Waugh, were it not for the jibes and loud snoring, I would have mistaken you for my cat! By the way, you left your keys.


.

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DaliuXas
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-19 10:34:08 Reply

Sup guys , what's the best and easiest software to begin drawing some non - complex animations , sprites or just a simple button? I was considering getting myself Photoshop , but maybe other suggestions ? Because that software costs a little too much , but it's no problem.

Daverom
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-19 12:57:51 Reply

At 2/19/10 10:34 AM, DaliuXas wrote: Sup guys , what's the best and easiest software to begin drawing some non - complex animations , sprites or just a simple button? I was considering getting myself Photoshop , but maybe other suggestions ? Because that software costs a little too much , but it's no problem.

Windows movie maker?

CloudEater
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-19 20:28:49 Reply

At 2/19/10 09:26 AM, PrinceFlea wrote:
At 2/18/10 11:36 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Late night Stickam round 3 anyone?
The room must be really something during the later hours.

Yes it is.... Stickam SESH 4!! ...GOGOGO!

Ashman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-19 20:39:49 Reply

At 2/19/10 08:28 PM, CloudEater wrote:
At 2/19/10 09:26 AM, PrinceFlea wrote:
At 2/18/10 11:36 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Late night Stickam round 3 anyone?
The room must be really something during the later hours.
Yes it is.... Stickam SESH 4!! ...GOGOGO!

what we really need is a thread just for the art forum stickam, would save on clutter in the lounge