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Snowman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 15:50:28 Reply

I heard about some of the madlabs stuff, now after what you said TOAS, all i can say is wow.....

goes to show if you do something right you can get away with it for some time, until you get stupid, as in this case...

This text is in bold, which makes me aweso and your statement irrelevant.
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bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 15:54:26 Reply

Yeah, ornery was telling us about Madlabs the other day on skype when we we're discussion art thieves and reporting and such.
Things like that just make you sit and wonder...

Snowman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 15:59:47 Reply

At 2/16/10 03:54 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Yeah, ornery was telling us about Madlabs the other day on skype when we we're discussion art thieves and reporting and such.
Things like that just make you sit and wonder...

Yhea, anyone could be stealing art. It could be you, It could be him, IT COULD BE ME?

lolol, im sorry, but i had to do that. open opputunity was taken

This text is in bold, which makes me aweso and your statement irrelevant.
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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 16:55:36 Reply

At 2/16/10 03:59 PM, Snowman wrote:
Yhea, anyone could be stealing art. It could be you, It could be him, IT COULD BE ME?

All my art is made by a trained monkey!!!!

I'm hairy enough....

and btw that medal is only about the size of a quarter....


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Ashman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 17:10:36 Reply

At 2/16/10 04:55 PM, Kinsei01 wrote:
At 2/16/10 03:59 PM, Snowman wrote:
Yhea, anyone could be stealing art. It could be you, It could be him, IT COULD BE ME?
All my art is made by a trained monkey!!!!
I'm hairy enough....
and btw that medal is only about the size of a quarter....

what kind of medal is that, its pathetic, bigger is better, unless you fire it out of something hmmm or throw really fast

in before thats what she said post
Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 17:17:14 Reply

At 2/16/10 05:10 PM, ashman112 wrote: what kind of medal is that, its pathetic, bigger is better, unless you fire it out of something hmmm or throw really fast
in before thats what she said post

It's just super sculpey that I sculpted, baked and painted. >.>....I learned how to use super sculpey in my sculpture for animation class. I just didn't spend much time on this, honestly no more then 5 monuets :P


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bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 17:19:20 Reply

That medal is almost as ugly as the 2010 Olympic medals.

Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:09:12 Reply

At 2/16/10 05:19 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: That medal is almost as ugly as the 2010 Olympic medals.

lol
thats just awesome.
Anyway I have started the paint job on my second medal


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Wivernryder
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:14:08 Reply

Kinseeeeei, we've been missing you on iScribble. We're trippin, man, trippin bad. Wish you were here, but you'll see the fruits of our efforts soon.

Next time don't get banned. Was it worth it for the medal?

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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:16:29 Reply

At 2/16/10 09:14 PM, Wivernryder wrote:
Next time don't get banned. Was it worth it for the medal?

yes, yes it was...
:P

I just checked... still banned...... I guess when I do something I do it good >:3

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Kinsei
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Wivernryder
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:29:21 Reply

Kinsei, what board was it that flipped out at you again? They need to be shown your pride.


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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:31:32 Reply

At 2/16/10 09:29 PM, Wivernryder wrote: Kinsei, what board was it that flipped out at you again? They need to be shown your pride.

lol it was farm animals (dogs?) RP...


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Snowman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:44:25 Reply

unfortunately, i did not save any screenshots from that board


This text is in bold, which makes me aweso and your statement irrelevant.
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Wivernryder
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:47:16 Reply

At 2/16/10 09:41 PM, PrinceFlea wrote: Really now? Screenshots or it did not happen.

I'm not sure how effective that statement is in this case, cause a permanent ban is pretty substantial evidence.


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Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 21:48:34 Reply

At 2/16/10 09:47 PM, Wivernryder wrote:
At 2/16/10 09:41 PM, PrinceFlea wrote: Really now? Screenshots or it did not happen.
I'm not sure how effective that statement is in this case, cause a permanent ban is pretty substantial evidence.

yeah.... I'd say a perm ban holds a pretty strong case in my favor on this one :P


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ornery
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:00:34 Reply

At 2/16/10 04:55 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: All my art is made by a trained monkey!!!!

Actually that brings up a really intresting topic that has been the talk around the water coolers in the art world as of late.

Lots of artists who are famous/ becoming famous DON'T actually produce their own work. Jeff Koons for example has all his stuff made in factories by other people, yet it is still considered his. We recently had a talk by this artist couple, which during the discussion they mentioned that they don't do any of their own paintings, instead they have hired studios in china do the work for them, however again they get all the credit and glory and no mention of the actual artist is ever seen. They see nothing wrong with this, and its surprisingly split sides on the issue. Some people believe that its not really their stuff, others say its the idea that matters more than the final product in these cases so they deserve full credit.

Its really interesting to see which side people take, its pretty surprising. Ive seen hardcore traditionalists side with the artists, and open minded wackos who agree with everything adamantly object to the practice of getting others to do your work then claim its yours because you thought of it.

Personally I am against it, if you didn't make it then it ain't fucking yours. But people argue that this has been going on for centuries. The great Renaissance masters had schools and apprentices doing most of the actual work on their paintings. Many artists today do similar. Robert Rauschenberg was known for having a team of assistants who did the actual work for him, all he did was design the compositions then they did the physical assembling. The same can be said about many recent sculptors. They think of the concept, and have their workers make the physical piece (and I'm not talking about architects).

How much of the artist's hand though needs to be in the piece for it to truley be theirs though. Chuck Close being wheelchair bound gets his assistants to prep his canvases (stretch, assemble and grid as well as oftentimes drawing out the outlines of the painting) then Chuck just colors in the lines. Could that be considered like doing a coloring book?

Just something to think about (and get shit back onto an art related topic)

bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:04:48 Reply

Stickam anyone?

Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:12:37 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:00 PM, ornery wrote:
At 2/16/10 04:55 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: All my art is made by a trained monkey!!!!
Actually that brings up a really intresting topic that has been the talk around the water coolers in the art world as of late.

Lots of artists who are famous/ becoming famous DON'T actually produce their own work. Jeff Koons for example has all his stuff made in factories by other people, yet it is still considered his. We recently had a talk by this artist couple, which during the discussion they mentioned that they don't do any of their own paintings, instead they have hired studios in china do the work for them, however again they get all the credit and glory and no mention of the actual artist is ever seen. They see nothing wrong with this, and its surprisingly split sides on the issue. Some people believe that its not really their stuff, others say its the idea that matters more than the final product in these cases so they deserve full credit.

Its really interesting to see which side people take, its pretty surprising. Ive seen hardcore traditionalists side with the artists, and open minded wackos who agree with everything adamantly object to the practice of getting others to do your work then claim its yours because you thought of it.

Personally I am against it, if you didn't make it then it ain't fucking yours. But people argue that this has been going on for centuries. The great Renaissance masters had schools and apprentices doing most of the actual work on their paintings. Many artists today do similar. Robert Rauschenberg was known for having a team of assistants who did the actual work for him, all he did was design the compositions then they did the physical assembling. The same can be said about many recent sculptors. They think of the concept, and have their workers make the physical piece (and I'm not talking about architects).

How much of the artist's hand though needs to be in the piece for it to truley be theirs though. Chuck Close being wheelchair bound gets his assistants to prep his canvases (stretch, assemble and grid as well as oftentimes drawing out the outlines of the painting) then Chuck just colors in the lines. Could that be considered like doing a coloring book?

Just something to think about (and get shit back onto an art related topic)

Actually when you mentioned this I thought you were going to go in to the animation aspect of artwork.
for a watered down example, 90% oa all animation Created here in the U.S. are actually produced and drawn over seas. But the original creators or the signing network seem to get all the credit. You hardly ever hear of the poor guy over in India who is working his butt off for a couple bucks to make animation. But you have to ask, who does deserve the credit in this case. the guy who came up with the idea or the guy who actually drew it.

It's quite similar but much more notorious for 3D animation. the bigger houses like Pixar or Dream works, license out most of there work to different smaller houses around the country. But when the credits roll on the big scree, yeah the smaller house's name might be in there somewhere, but it was the big house that gets the big print.

But we could also consider that last example as a "commission work" type of case. The question is, Is it right to get someone else to do your work for you?


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Snowman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:19:01 Reply

But we could also consider that last example as a "commission work" type of case. The question is, Is it right to get someone else to do your work for you?

Not at all. If I were the person to make it, I would want credit for it, these people overseas (and as much as i do hate foreign outsourcing) really do deserve credit. I dont understand why some of these people feel that they have to do something like this, If they built thier career by making all of this art they should beable to keep making art no problem. Its most likely because they are rich pricks, that adds into it abit, they think they can do anything.


This text is in bold, which makes me aweso and your statement irrelevant.
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bigjonny13
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:30:28 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:19 PM, PrinceFlea wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:04 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Stickam anyone?
Are you using the same one as the general uses?

No, its a different room, and it's just a bunch of us art guys at the moment.

Ashman
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:31:57 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:19 PM, PrinceFlea wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:04 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Stickam anyone?
Are you using the same one as the general uses?

no its an art forum room now people get in here while people are still active

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:44:20 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:31 PM, ashman112 wrote: no its an art forum room now people get in here while people are still active

Too good for the normal NG stickam room? Stop being snooty and go mingle with people who aren't from the art forum.


Look at my art!

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:51:13 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:12 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: Actually when you mentioned this I thought you were going to go in to the animation aspect of artwork.

The difference with animation and movies is that they tend to be group efforts anyway, so no one person generally gets credit. Even in movies where people tend to credit a particular actor or director as being the main driving force of the movie, there is still a giant credits list where all those involved get mentioned, either directly or indirectly.

With these artists they are getting works tied directly to their name with maybe a special thanks blurb at the most if they are feeling generous. It would be like Tarantino taking 100% credit for all aspects of Kill Bill (which i wouldnt put past him if he could get away with it). But with movies this could never happen because its widely known that they take massive teams of people to make. Artworks however that are generally a single man project are a different story. If you involve someone else in your work is it really just yours? How would you feel as the assistant to some sculptor, and you assembled the entire thing they just told you where stuff went, but you cant ever tell people that its "your work" because A. no one would believe you and B. there is no mention of you anywhere.

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:55:36 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:44 PM, Captain-Ben wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:31 PM, ashman112 wrote: no its an art forum room now people get in here while people are still active
Too good for the normal NG stickam room? Stop being snooty and go mingle with people who aren't from the art forum.

i did once but it wasnt a fun experience, i check in there every so often, but i never say anything

Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-16 23:57:22 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:51 PM, ornery wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:12 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: Actually when you mentioned this I thought you were going to go in to the animation aspect of artwork.
The difference with animation and movies is that they tend to be group efforts anyway, so no one person generally gets credit. Even in movies where people tend to credit a particular actor or director as being the main driving force of the movie, there is still a giant credits list where all those involved get mentioned, either directly or indirectly.

With these artists they are getting works tied directly to their name with maybe a special thanks blurb at the most if they are feeling generous. It would be like Tarantino taking 100% credit for all aspects of Kill Bill (which i wouldnt put past him if he could get away with it). But with movies this could never happen because its widely known that they take massive teams of people to make. Artworks however that are generally a single man project are a different story. If you involve someone else in your work is it really just yours? How would you feel as the assistant to some sculptor, and you assembled the entire thing they just told you where stuff went, but you cant ever tell people that its "your work" because A. no one would believe you and B. there is no mention of you anywhere.

I'm not considering just single people getting the credit for a film or animation, but a single company, It's the exact same thing your talking about but on just a much larger scale......

but agree in the fact that everyone should get credit for a compilation work, be it paintings or a movie.

Shared victory, shared defeat

Btw Ben people outside the art forum are weird...

I mean yeah we are pretty weird ourselves.... but we keep it in check....sort of....

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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 00:09:42 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:57 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: Btw Ben people outside the art forum are weird...
I mean yeah we are pretty weird ourselves.... but we keep it in check....sort of....

sounds snooty to me


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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 00:12:45 Reply

Lol Luis is in our Stickam room.

ornery
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 02:02:09 Reply

At 2/16/10 11:57 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: I'm not considering just single people getting the credit for a film or animation, but a single company, It's the exact same thing your talking about but on just a much larger scale......

I dont see whats wrong with a company taking credit for an animation, because a company is a bodiless entity that is comprised of all the people who work for it. All those people who work on an animation are paid and hired by the company to do something that is meant to be collaborative. The company isnt taking credit for peoples work, its simplifying the identity process, because the people who make the thing and work the thing are collectively represented by the company name and logo. If you work for Pixar, all you need to do is say "I work for Pixar" and people will immediately associate you with whatever projects Pixar does. They wont think you did everything, but through the name they understand that you played a role.
If however you say "I work for Richard Serra" people will smile and nod and NOT acknowledge that you may have played a role in the construction or fabrication of his pieces.
The company thing is closer to what newgrounds does with its collabs. The title of the collab and newgrounds will garner attention first, and your name being in the credits assures that you get the credit you deserve should you seek it. The artist thing is more similar to a collab being only credited to one author with no mention of any other users, and no co-authors, and then everyone giving all the credit to that single author.

Kinsei
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Response to Art Forum Lounge 2010-02-17 04:10:39 Reply

At 2/17/10 02:02 AM, ornery wrote:
At 2/16/10 11:57 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: I'm not considering just single people getting the credit for a film or animation, but a single company, It's the exact same thing your talking about but on just a much larger scale......
I dont see whats wrong with a company taking credit for an animation, because a company is a bodiless entity that is comprised of all the people who work for it. All those people who work on an animation are paid and hired by the company to do something that is meant to be collaborative. The company isnt taking credit for peoples work, its simplifying the identity process, because the people who make the thing and work the thing are collectively represented by the company name and logo. If you work for Pixar, all you need to do is say "I work for Pixar" and people will immediately associate you with whatever projects Pixar does. They wont think you did everything, but through the name they understand that you played a role.
If however you say "I work for Richard Serra" people will smile and nod and NOT acknowledge that you may have played a role in the construction or fabrication of his pieces.
The company thing is closer to what newgrounds does with its collabs. The title of the collab and newgrounds will garner attention first, and your name being in the credits assures that you get the credit you deserve should you seek it. The artist thing is more similar to a collab being only credited to one author with no mention of any other users, and no co-authors, and then everyone giving all the credit to that single author.

I really Don't see where outsourcing work of a animation is really any different than outsourcing your work to assistants. Sure in a credit roll the animators and artist get there credit, and I'm sure in a painting (using as an example) bio the people who assisted or the work was delegated to, get there credit just as well. Although I do admit that credits on a movie are much more easy to show than on a painting in a gallery somewhere. I would think it looked rather odd to have a giant black book beside every gallery piece detailing who did what on that particular work. But that is more of a presentation thing.

I still think that regardless of the medium that assistance work, delegated work, and outsourced work is very underplayed. I'm sure we can agree on that.

When it comes to a topic of mentioning where you work or who for, it really then comes down to fame and the conversation partners knowledge of the subject matter weather they acknowledge what you have done for the company/famous artist.


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