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At 2/4/08 02:11 PM, RommelTJ wrote:

:: Israeli Air Force pilots for the win

The ability to fly an aircraft and perform aerial manuevers is no longer what determines who has the best Air Force. It is who has the longer ranged radar and missiles that make all the difference. The USAF/USN with our AWACS and F-15/F-22 radars would splash an IDF F-16 long before the Israelis could best us in manuevering.

At 2/4/08 12:20 PM, TheMason wrote: The cost of producing an AK and arming your own military with it is probably about or less than $100 (in fact I think I'm being conservative here, it probably costs China around $50)...something China has the capability.

Even at fifty bucks a gun, supplying the army would cost trillions... Which China would have serious problems paying. When I said that they would have to be on the dollar menu, I meant it.

Furthermore, the AK is in many ways superior to the M-16. In Somalia we were inflicting multiple gunshot wounds on people who were suffering from famine conditions and they were still getting back on their feet and continued fighting. However, their AK rounds took us out far more efficiently. Furthermore, an AK is far more suited to field conditions than American/Western firearms. As an American serviceman; I'd ditch my M-16 in heartbeat for an AK.

I agree that it is a better gun, but the AK relies on huge state-run factories, whereas the M-16 is more suitable to a market economy, as production can be spread out. If they even tried to make huge numbers of AK's, we would probably just blow up their factories, because they are basically big targets due to China's negative attitude towards missile defense systems.

China has a large, well equipped and well trained military.

At 2/4/08 09:19 PM, kahncccp wrote: China has a large, well equipped and well trained military.

china has a large, poorly-equipped, poorly-trained military consisting mostly of uneducated, expendable, peasant conscripts.

The US. Doesn't make us invulnerable though. The last 50 years should be the reminder of that.

Historically even the most modernized, professional, advanced armies have trouble dealing with dedicated mobs.

The Athenians had trouble in Sicily, the Romans had trouble in Britain, shit, the British had trouble against the 13 friggin Colonies.....

Sadly, because people don't bother thinking of this shit, history repeats and the US has had trouble with the Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Afghans, Somalians, and Iraqis.......

Bleh....I don't fear the big armored guy with the laser rifle, I fear the pale, hungry-lookin guys with little choice and little to lose.......

At 2/4/08 07:55 PM, Christopherr wrote:

At 2/4/08 12:20 PM, TheMason wrote:

Even at fifty bucks a gun, supplying the army would cost trillions... Which China would have serious problems paying. When I said that they would have to be on the dollar menu, I meant it.

I agree that it is a better gun, but the AK relies on huge state-run factories, whereas the M-16 is more suitable to a market economy, as production can be spread out. If they even tried to make huge numbers of AK's, we would probably just blow up their factories, because they are basically big targets due to China's negative attitude towards missile defense systems.

1) One of the great things about a country like China is that if they wanted to they could press prisoners into all sectors of producing an AK possibly reducing the cost to less than $10. Downside: quality goes down.

2) China last year successfully tested an anti-satellite missile. What this means is they have the ability to effectively neutralize US bombs and air-to-ground missiles and cruise missiles by taking out our GPS systems.

3) I hate to play the "if you only knew what I knew" card, but the reality is China is actively pursuing anti-missile technology.

USA...no Israil. Ummm....

At 2/4/08 11:03 PM, TheMason wrote: 1) One of the great things about a country like China is that if they wanted to they could press prisoners into all sectors of producing an AK possibly reducing the cost to less than $10. Downside: quality goes down.

Isn't the AK47 basically the most stable gun in terms of use and not jamming etc?

Surely, even if the quality of the weapon would go down, there wouldn't be such a difference between the quality of a normal AK47 and the exceptionally cheap mass produced one?

Also, in the whole US Vs China thing, I think one thing is being over looked, and that's the ability of the government to actively place their armies in danger and not really caring about them as people.

Unless china does something like 9/11 or personally invades the US, there is no way the US people would get behind a war as much as they would need to allow the US Government to do what was really necessary to win at all costs.

The US would continue to treat every death of a tragedy.

China would treat every death as a statistic in a much larger goal.

Now, if we consider the fact that China's large manufacturing capability would be difficult to take out if they are in the process of developing, or indeed already have, anti-ballistic missiles, the US then loses it's only real way to effectively cut off China from what it's arms. That means an Iraq style ' Shock and Awe' tactic won't work really, and the only way to ' win' would be a presence of ground troops in china itself. There is no way the US troops could take out the Chinese army within the Chinese border, and when you combine that with the Chinese governments willingness to just sacrifice its own men in a way the US would not, China could technically 'win'.

However, China would be unable to defeat the US should it invade the states itself, so really the whole thing is a stalemate if we're talking about a war in which the aim is to overthrow the opposing armies Government.

At 2/4/08 11:03 PM, TheMason wrote: 2) China last year successfully tested an anti-satellite missile. What this means is they have the ability to effectively neutralize US bombs and air-to-ground missiles and cruise missiles by taking out our GPS systems.

Heh.....Fall of the American Empire, coming to a theater near you!!!

That essentially neutralizes our capability to do anything but be a harassment, doesn't it?
Especially the way their economy and manufacturing is proceeding.

Can't attack em heavily from the air, can't sanction em, that's for damn sure (might as well sanction ourselves for all the good it would do), and don't really wanna put our guys on the ground for any large scale operations.....

Well they've pretty much got a free ride to do whatever the fuck they want in that region don't they?

Good thing they don't have the naval capabilities we do, otherwise we'd lose all hegemony in a heartbeat......

At 2/5/08 01:02 AM, Imperator wrote: That essentially neutralizes our capability to do anything but be a harassment, doesn't it?

Well...there is using our B-1s and B-2s to carpet bomb a la WWII...

Good thing they don't have the naval capabilities we do, otherwise we'd lose all hegemony in a heartbeat......

Damn straight. As much as my USAF pride makes me hate to say it...the most intimidating symbol of US military power is a supercarrier group...

At 2/5/08 01:12 AM, TheMason wrote: Well...there is using our B-1s and B-2s to carpet bomb a la WWII...

Harassment. I think you'd agree that such an act wouldn't necessarily stop or even significantly hinder the Chinese if they were undertaking something major in the region (say, an invasion of some petty nearby nation). I think they're smart enough to know they'd have to commit close to 100% to do something like that, and wouldn't therefore let a simple carpet-bombing campaign ruin their day.

Damn straight. As much as my USAF pride makes me hate to say it...the most intimidating symbol of US military power is a supercarrier group...

Not a bad analysis for a passionate historian in training eh? You can still take some pride though, because a carrier group is only feared due to the presence of that AIRCRAFT carrier. To my displeasure, naval combat is not the big gun-firing broadside-to-broadside combat of yesteryear, lot of it's focused on air powah! And air powah is your department.....

At 2/4/08 11:03 PM, TheMason wrote: 2) China last year successfully tested an anti-satellite missile. What this means is they have the ability to effectively neutralize US bombs and air-to-ground missiles and cruise missiles by taking out our GPS systems.

Just being able to successfully launch an anti-satellite missile once doesn't mean that China has the ability to do this at the scale necessary to actually effectively neutralize American space assets. It would only really disrupt it temporarily.

Read.

At 2/5/08 12:43 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Also, in the whole US Vs China thing, I think one thing is being over looked, and that's the ability of the government to actively place their armies in danger and not really caring about them as people.

Unless china does something like 9/11 or personally invades the US, there is no way the US people would get behind a war as much as they would need to allow the US Government to do what was really necessary to win at all costs.

That's not true at all.

First off, the only real conceivable war scenario between the US and China is over Taiwan, possibly escalating, but starting over Taiwan. The US has a defense pact with Taiwan, and would be required to provide them assistance and defend them against China.

If China really wanted to take Taiwan, they would have to conduct a preemptive attack against the US to catch us off guard otherwise their attack would be feckless and pathetic. This would involve attacking US ships and US bases in the region (including possibly US satellites)... leading to material and personnel loses that would rile Americans in the same way Pearl Harbor did.

That would provoke basically immediate retaliation, tactically and strategically.

Now, if we consider the fact that China's large manufacturing capability would be difficult to take out if they are in the process of developing, or indeed already have, anti-ballistic missiles, the US then loses it's only real way to effectively cut off China from what it's arms.

First off, China doesn't have an effective anti-ballistic missile system. Secondly, ballistic missiles would not really be used. But just in cause you're thinking about nuclear-armed ballistic missiles, then there is absolutely no way in hell China would be able to counter a US attack in that regard.

Secondly, ballistic missiles would not be used against manufacturing targets, nor would they need to be. The US could cripple China's ability to produce or even apply the use of ground forces in the first place, their manufacturing power would be irrelevant, given the fact that their command and control structure would be destroyed with cruise missiles and airstrikes (not ballistic missiles) if it came to that.

Also, almost all of China's oil arrives by ocean, almost all the oil tankers that arrive with China's much-needed oil get there through a relatively small area of the ocean in Southeast asia. The US controls the world's oceans, and could basically turn off the tap. China has reserves, but only that could last a short while, no where near enough to maintain a war against the US. In the process, their forces that were actually postured to get into any direct confrontation with the US would be getting bombed relentlessly.

That means an Iraq style ' Shock and Awe' tactic won't work really, and the only way to ' win' would be a presence of ground troops in china itself.

Absolutely not.

The US controls the air, and it controls the oceans. There would be no need to position ground assets in China, none whatsoever except maybe special forces.

At 2/4/08 03:34 PM, Transkar wrote: morefngdbs, why do you continue to make idiotic replies. Just because they are using guerilla warfare does NOT MEAN THEY HAVE A BETTER MILITARY! We are not fighting a normal war with Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and Somalia!

;
Why does it matter if the war is 'normal' as you put it or not.
If there is a guerilla force in opposition, & they are being an effective, constantly changing & almost invisible but still causing the "GREATEST MILITARY FORCE IN THE WORLD" to cower inside fortified positions at night.
Killing & destroying equipment on a daily basis. Using death squads to kill their own people who are collaborating with the 'enemy' as the see it. You should give credit where credit is due.
These guy's are tenacious, all you guy's seem to think that conventional war is coming back like the old 1st & 2nd WW where frontlines are where the battles happen, soldiers are all in their own easily identified uniforms.... well it isn't happening these days is it?
It probably won't happen that way in the future.
The value of having people commited to gorilla operations, in amongst the rest of the population is an effective way to keep bleeding the so called conquerer.
All the massive navy's & airforce int he world isn't helping you here.
THat's what I meant.
Stick your head up your ass & tell yourself that "IF IT WAS A CONVENTIONAL WAR.....WE'D KICK ASS"
& just continue to delude yourself in what is actually happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, look at the Gaza Strip & what Hamas did to their border with Egypt, uncontroled crossings by thousands of people.
Who has any idea how much bomb & other munitions got through to the Hamas & other guerilla groups.
Why most of you look at having the most, is having the best!
I'm looking at who have been effective against that superior force.

After, what 5 years this March/08 since you invaded Iraq, your still trying to gain control. You don't think this small opposition deserves some credit/respect for managing to continue to cause casualties & fear.

I don't have to like what the extremists do, nor do I condone their tactics, but I have to give credit where I see it's due & these guy's are tough bastards & they are effective.

At 2/5/08 09:25 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

I cant quote it but -
You don't get the whole idea.
US & Israel aren't attacking citizens like the guerilla.
Dont be a fucking idiot, Israel can destroy HAMAS, and Kill all of the Palestinians with exactly one bomb.
But the Muslims, tend to take advantage that their enemy isnt like them, not as shallow and having 15th century mentality.
The ONLY advantage of geurilla is that they hide in civilian homes / towns. ( And in the muslim case also support them).

Stick your head up your ass & tell yourself that "IF IT WAS A CONVENTIONAL WAR.....WE'D KICK ASS"

Ok, so if its not conventional war, Let USA and Israel just bomb the whole place, theyll win.

At 2/5/08 03:19 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: First off, China doesn't have an effective anti-ballistic missile system.

I don't think we'll be able to say that 10 years from now.

The US controls the air, and it controls the oceans. There would be no need to position ground assets in China, none whatsoever except maybe special forces.

One problem here is their anti-satellite missiles. If they could knock out enough of our GPS satellites we our ability to target and navigate becomes exceptionally limited and reduces our accuracy down to 1991 Desert Storm levels (ie: this puts our Air Force, USAF/USN close to par with the PLAAF).

At 1/24/08 09:06 PM, Grammer wrote: I'm thinking ion cannon, what about you?

If the US had an Ion Cannon, and it was in a safe place where you can fire in safety/very protected, we can threaten the terrorists to give up, or we Ion Cannon their ass.

US has best MILITARY Technology, not civilian technology. I don't know which country has the best military. It depends on what you think, or who you support.

At 2/5/08 09:43 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 2/5/08 09:25 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

I cant quote it but -
You don't get the whole idea.
US & Israel aren't attacking citizens like the guerilla.

;
I get it & your absolutely correct. Isreael, the U.S. heck the Lebanese Army dealing with Hamas & the other Palestinian Terrorist groups are having a real problem with these tactics of hiding in amongst non-combatants. Waiting for an oportune moment & attacking.
This type of warfare is being waged by a small group(s) and the conventional war machine is stymied.

Dont be a fucking idiot, Israel can destroy HAMAS, and Kill all of the Palestinians with exactly one bomb.

;
No they can't, they nuke them the fall out will land right on their own people & lands.
The world community would absolutely freak out.
They don't have that option. I personally believe they will use that option if another Arab nation or nations attack & they might possibly lose, then we might see that option used.

But the Muslims, tend to take advantage that their enemy isnt like them, not as shallow and having 15th century mentality.
The ONLY advantage of geurilla is that they hide in civilian homes / towns. ( And in the muslim case also support them).

;
Exactly, they have a lot of local support, the U.s & other nations are not stooping to this level. But that does not change the fact of how much resources are being tied up by a relatively smaller force.

Stick your head up your ass & tell yourself that "IF IT WAS A CONVENTIONAL WAR.....WE'D KICK ASS"

Ok, so if its not conventional war, Let USA and Israel just bomb the whole place, theyll win.

;
Really, they bombed the absolute shit out of Bagdad, and still insurgents emerged from the rubble & were in place to cause real problems for the American & allied troops on the ground.
Biggest airforce, aircraft carriers & spy satelites be damned they are still causing real problems.

Also it's been 6 & 1/2 years since the U.S. President said he would use all his resources to find Bin Ladin. Well I'm assuming here ,but I figure all the Airforce, Army, Navy, Marines, CIA,FBI, Spy Satelites & all the secrete organizations I've failed to mention fall into what you guy's call the "GREATEST ARMED FORCES ON THE PLANET" & all I got to say is ....
Where is Osama bin Laden ?
Why can't the greatest military in the world not find him ?

Might be really great in size but....Just isn't as great as you all seem to think !

At 2/5/08 04:51 PM, Transkar wrote: morefngdbs,

You do realize that we already won the war in 2003. We have lost what, some 4000 young brace men and women. Their losses are in the hundred thousands. All this is now is some little brat coming out of his house and shooting at someone. We destroyed the militaries of Iraq and Afghanistan. All this is now is a manhunt, why can't you understand that?

;
Yeah, I understand that Georgie's war on terror has killed more American people than the terrorists killed in 9/11.
These little brats are still fighting 6 years later & they are still taking Americans with them, how great is that?

terrorists kill almost 3000 people in American attack, George orders armed forces to war on terror 3949 Americans killed as of Feb.1 08. Who's the bigger killer of Americans? doesn't that mean he's a bigger problem?

At 2/4/08 11:03 PM, TheMason wrote: 1) One of the great things about a country like China is that if they wanted to they could press prisoners into all sectors of producing an AK possibly reducing the cost to less than $10. Downside: quality goes down.

As do their soldiers. We'd still bomb them out.

2) China last year successfully tested an anti-satellite missile. What this means is they have the ability to effectively neutralize US bombs and air-to-ground missiles and cruise missiles by taking out our GPS systems.

Yeah, temporarily. They would not be able to defend against our full power.

3) I hate to play the "if you only knew what I knew" card, but the reality is China is actively pursuing anti-missile technology.

I'm talking about the current situation, not the future.

The New World Order has the best military.

Don't believe me? Oh, you'll see soon...

MUHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAA

Now who's the smartest military in the world?

At 2/5/08 05:30 PM, Christopherr wrote:

At 2/4/08 11:03 PM, TheMason wrote: 2) China last year successfully tested an anti-satellite missile. What this means is they have the ability to effectively neutralize US bombs and air-to-ground missiles and cruise missiles by taking out our GPS systems.

Yeah, temporarily. They would not be able to defend against our full power.

That would probably seriously degrade about 80% of our bombs and cruise missiles.

3) I hate to play the "if you only knew what I knew" card, but the reality is China is actively pursuing anti-missile technology.

I'm talking about the current situation, not the future.

As am I. Your source may be correct on China's official doctrine...but doctrine does not always reflect actions.

At 2/5/08 04:40 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Also it's been 6 & 1/2 years since the U.S. President said he would use all his resources to find Bin Ladin. Well I'm assuming here ,but I figure all the Airforce, Army, Navy, Marines, CIA,FBI, Spy Satelites & all the secrete organizations I've failed to mention fall into what you guy's call the "GREATEST ARMED FORCES ON THE PLANET" & all I got to say is ....
Where is Osama bin Laden ?
Why can't the greatest military in the world not find him ?

Might be really great in size but....Just isn't as great as you all seem to think !

I think it's funny how time and time again your logic gets destroyed, but you just keep spouting out the same ignorant crap over and over again.

Not being able to find a single person does not have negative implications for the power of a military to destroy another military.

1) For all we know, Osama bin Laden is already dead, if he was blown up in a bomb, we'd never know whether or not he died by our hands.

2) You're talking about people that hide in holes in the ground and hide among civilians. How you can magically come to the conclusion that since our enemies are good at HIDING from us instead of fighting us (yet get get their asses kicked everytime they actually fight us) reflects negatively on our military power shows how wacked out of your mind you are.

3) You apply no context, at all. Do you think any other military would be able to find Osama Bin laden? You think Canada could? You realize that your country can barely even maintain its forces in the tiny sliver of land in souther Afghanistan, and you feel you're in a position to criticize the ability of a military to find a needle in a haystack, never minding your military can't even operate independently of tha very military?

Hilarious.

At 2/5/08 02:58 PM, TheMason wrote:

At 2/5/08 03:19 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: First off, China doesn't have an effective anti-ballistic missile system.

I don't think we'll be able to say that 10 years from now.

The US doesn't even use tactical ballistic missiles other than for short range. Cruise missiles and airstrikes would be used predominantly.

Unless China planned on doing what the US already admitted can't be done with regards to Russia, i.e. negate the adversaries nuclear arsenal... their anti-ballistic missiles would be almost pointless.

The US controls the air, and it controls the oceans. There would be no need to position ground assets in China, none whatsoever except maybe special forces.

One problem here is their anti-satellite missiles.

I've already touched on this. The threat of their anti-satellite missiles is grossly exaggerated. It wouldn't be a knock-out blow, it couldn't be. It would make operations difficult but it wouldn't prevent the US from using smart weapons.

If they could knock out enough of our GPS satellites we our ability to target and navigate becomes exceptionally limited and reduces our accuracy down to 1991 Desert Storm levels (ie: this puts our Air Force, USAF/USN close to par with the PLAAF).

The accuracy of the GPS munitions and navigation would not be really degraded, but the window of time that these could be used across the full spectrum of our military would be narrowed. China couldn't destroy all of our military satellites. If they manage to knock many of them out, it would require a longer period of time before the orbit of other satellites that were undamaged came over Asia/China to allow for GPS to be used.

Even then, China would have to set up and posture a conspicuous amount of missiles to do this. This would alert us long before their strike took place, possibly triggering preemptive strikes against the missile platforms, silos, launchers, or at least allowing for preparation.

The good ol' US of A has the most powerful military in the world. We have more nukes than China, we can maintain our nukes unlike Russia, and the quality of our equipment is second to none.

At 2/5/08 08:43 PM, Karl-Ludwig wrote: The good ol' US of A has the most powerful military in the world. We have more nukes than China, we can maintain our nukes unlike Russia, and the quality of our equipment is second to none.

And that statement should've ended the thread.

And Americans have designed Dragons skin body armour which can even survive granades as well as a beating from assult rifles, machine guns etc.

At 2/5/08 07:27 PM, TheMason wrote: That would probably seriously degrade about 80% of our bombs and cruise missiles.

Yeah, smart bombs. They still have poor air defenses, so we could easily dumb bomb their cheap ten dollar AK factories to hell. On top of that, 20% of our smart bombs and cruise missiles is still enough to do serious damage to strategic locations.

As am I. Your source may be correct on China's official doctrine...but doctrine does not always reflect actions.

I mean right now. I don't care what they are developing, but instead what they actually have to use.

At 2/5/08 08:46 PM, Brick-top wrote: And Americans have designed Dragons skin body armour which can even survive granades as well as a beating from assult rifles, machine guns etc.

And it happens to be WAY too heavy for infantry use and will probably never see full-scale military use. Despite what you saw on Future Weapons, it can't withstand such an onslaught of pistol and rifle ammo (and yes, that fake grenade doesn't count) outside of a company-controlled environment.

At 2/5/08 09:18 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: And it happens to be WAY too heavy for infantry use and will probably never see full-scale military use. Despite what you saw on Future Weapons, it can't withstand such an onslaught of pistol and rifle ammo (and yes, that fake grenade doesn't count) outside of a company-controlled environment.

You forgot to mention that it gives +5 on all resistances.