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The trick to controlling a population of crazy ratbastards isn't by appeasing their most important religious beliefs, but by aggrevating them directly. Muslim immigrants want to throw a shitfit because someone offended their deity? Ban the Koran and make it punishable by death to be found with one. If it's good enough to kill for, it's good enough to die for.

Back in the day, on cold autumn nights, folk would leave candles lit inside the hollowed skulls of their dead enemies. Television has pacified too many, turning wolves into cattle for the slaughter. You gotta fight your battle sometime, running only makes things worse.

At 1/26/08 01:02 AM, lumpypaint wrote: ROFL! That made me literally spit out my soda!

die.

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At 1/25/08 10:49 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote: So, however, lapis, you're urging me to find solutions - well, apart from concentration camps (which are highly unrealistic, inhumane and altogether expendable), I can only offer... well, integration. But not integration in a way of exploiting our social system and introducing a medieval system into our modern democratic one, but making migrants accept our way of live. And by ACCEPTING I mean accomodation. (Yeah, that's harsh, but I would accomodate too if I lived in Turkey, for sure)

(....)

But, lapis, you live in the Netherlands, so do you got any good solutions?

You need to elaborate on what you mean by "accommodation' because if you're saying that immigrants should accept fundamental (constitutional) values of our societies like equal treatment of women and homosexuals then I don't think that's very "harsh" but just common sense. In the case of my country, I feel that article 120 of our constitution should be repealed, so that courts may declare unconstitutional laws to be void because we're in the awkward position that, even though article 91 states that unconstitutional laws may only be passed when two thirds of the members of parliament are in favour, no one has the authority to blow the whistle on a simple 50%+ majority in parliament if they violate article 91.

So when this is passed, Muslims who support imposing hudud laws in our country would need a two thirds majority in parliament in order to do so, and if we curtail immigration from developing countries, which is already happening, they'll reach 20% at best in the next few decades due to their higher birth rates (as long as most native Europeans don't emigrate like you propose). And considering that the majority of European Muslims don't even support imposing any form of shari`ah (25% (50% of 50%) of Dutch Muslims, 40% of their British Muslims in their own communities) I don't believe there's any democratic threat to our values.

Then there are non-democratic (violent) threats to our values, and those threats will not be realised as long as we don't cave in or migrate to other countries. If foreign imams preach (or commit) violence, then deport them. If riots become a (real) serious problem, then I actually support isolating those who are arrested during riots several times from the rest of the nation in fenced-off container parks with a permit to work outside those parks as long as they don't band together in the streets outside the time they work (and take those permits away if they violate this restrction).

The political correctness that you percieve to be a threat will eventually die out, for example, in my country Wilders will eventually drag other parties away from it. Every time a riot takes place or an act of terror is committed support for him in polls will surge and even though he'll never be a part of the government other parties will feel him breathing down their necks and they'll be forced to take tougher stances. Although I expect Wilders' movie about the Qur'an to be enormously idiotic in terms of content it might serve the purpose of weeding out violent elements in our society and (eventually) forcing the government to move towards a more hardline position, the VVD (classical liberals) is already trying harder to appeal to the far right and the CDA (political Christians) might follow, if I'm not mistaken this is already happening in Germany.

So in addition to most Muslims not being violent today an even larger percentage will be forced to grow some skin and accept the right to free speech in Europe, and I'm seriously getting sick about other Europeans who predict the impeding downfall and Islamisation of Europe, Europe will only fall if we allow it to do so. Every increase in radicalism among Muslims creates an even bigger response, which is probably why Islamist parties hold no seats in our parliament while the party that wants to ban the Qur'an and repeal the first article of our consitution (the non-discrimination principle) has nine seats out of 150 and polls predict even higher numbers in future elections.

Migrating because of these problems is just incredibly weak and excessive.

Overacted "respect" of foreign culture is just stupid. (80%

Errm, that's a percentage you might to source.

of muslim immigrants are living from donations by the state; if you compare this to indian or chinese immigrants, they nearly know no unemployment),

That's a cultural issue and nothing to do with the fact that they're Muslims, in the Netherlands 22% of the Antillians (slave descendants from our colonies in the Caribbean like Aruba and Curacao) are unemployed and 21% of the Turks. It may take a long time before these differences disappear but there is not much you can do about it. Throwing large amounts of money at underachieving minorites has no good precedents of being effective so this is just something we'll have to accept. We just have to make sure that social security is not too high for our countries to maintain.

I'm currently trying to convince my friends of the violent potential in Koran (well, that's not much, but better than nothing), to raise their awareness of the threats of assimilation,

Muh, there's not much wrong with the Qur'an. The 40 lashes for adulterers (eye for an eye in a way), the fact that women only get 50% of what men get in inheritance, that their testimony counts for half of a man's testimony and the allowed beating of women (although this could be restricted using the equal punishment principle, then again there are probably not a lot of `ulamâ' who share this view) are probably the worst aspects about which you can say without any clash in interpretation that they conflict with (some of) our Western values. If you want to show your friends that shari`ah law is not something that we should desire to have imposed on us then you'd better go for ahadith like these ones considering that all of the four prevalent Sunni madhâhib also prescribe these punishments.

Do you have any solutions for notorious criminals, except from getting them out of the county? (in Germany, criminals with more than 50 crimes aren't sent to their home-countrys, wtf?)

Most "immigrants" who cause problems were born here, you can't deport them. But we have this thing called prison, I don't think it should be considered to be obsolete just yet.

Hope that's emough explained.

Yeah, now we at least had somthing to talk about.

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Oh, I forgot tot say that not all those links are in English but I'm posting them anyway to prove that I'm not making stuff up. This online translator won't generate award-winning proze but at least you can use it to verify what I said.

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It reminds me of what happened in Europe before ww2, Germany with their offensive policy, France+England doing nothing.
We gotta stop the Muslims...

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Hey lapis,

thanks for the long answer - I just going to answer your points later (gotta meet a friend to study >.<)

However, I found this nice vid of the riots in Cologne, of which I was already talking about:

Islam is Peace.

*sigh*

However, have a nice day ^^

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At 1/26/08 02:20 PM, Transkar wrote: People need to wake up and realize that we are in the modern age. Islam is going to take over if we lay down and let them fuck the shit out of free speech. Even free speech has its faults and the muslims are exploiting them.

But Islam isn't inherently evil. Many Muslims live in the US, and they like it here. The problem is the extremists who are teaching children that the US has one goal and one goal only: to eradicate Islam.

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Might as well post my errata.

At 1/26/08 08:42 AM, lapis wrote: Errm, that's a percentage you might to source.

you might want to source.

That's a cultural issue and nothing to do with the fact that they're Muslims

That's a cultural issue and it has nothing to do with the fact that they're Muslims

The 40 lashes for adulterers

The 100 lashes for adulterers

Yeah, now we at least had somthing to talk about.

Yeah, now we at least had something to talk about.

At 1/26/08 08:44 AM, lapis wrote: Oh, I forgot tot say

I forgot to say

award-winning proze

award-winning prose.

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move to canada, you get health care.
so if you break a leg or get a heart attack
they cure u free of charge

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At 1/26/08 09:40 PM, Cisco-Delgado wrote: And to think that Occident went to destroy Slobodan Milsosevic, when he, in fact, was fighting against Islam...

Wow. So what you're saying here is "We must stand against the brutal enemies of freedom and democracy, and that's why we should have allied ourselves with a brutal enemy of freedom and democracy".
Nice.

Furthermore:

At 1/26/08 09:32 PM, Cisco-Delgado wrote: If this is true, if in Poland you can't speak against Christian Church without being repressed, then consider your country lucky. Trust me, no peaceful people ever talk bad about other religions just like that.

So you seem to strongly favor religious tradition, cultural identity and national security in detriment of free speech and personal liberties, support police brutality and advocate for a black and white view on world affairs.

Have you ever thought of becoming a high-ranked radical muslim? Because you seem to be cut out just right for the job.

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At 1/26/08 09:06 PM, chocolate-penguin wrote:

At 1/25/08 11:10 PM, VigilanteNighthawk wrote:

But how many violent conflicts in the world are resulting from radical Christians?

I see someone didn't bother reading my reply as to HOW radical Islam got started in that other thread. My point was not that there are not violent Muslims, but that Islam, just like any religion, is open to interpretation, and those interpretations can vary widely between violence and peace.

As for "radical Christianity," you do realize that Christianity was used to justify the Crusades, the expulsion of the Jews (who ran to Islamic countries where they were welcomed), witch hunts both in colonial America and Europe, torture of non Christians in Europe, slavery, and campaigns against Native Americans. So, history has shown Christianity to be a violent religion.

The truth, though, is that Christianity is not inherently violent. In fact, the first Christians were pacifists, even when they were being persecuted and tortured by the Romans. Each of the above events were born out of various circumstances of the time. The same is going on with Islam.

The fact of the matter is that throughout much of the history of Islam that Islamic nations have historically been no more violent than Christian nations, and at times have even shown more tolerance and restraint than their Christian contemporaries. I've explained the series of circumstances that has led us to this point where there is a radical and dangerous strain of Islam. All you have given is quotes taken out of context

If you are going to continue to argue a point, then at least do so from an informed standpoint, instead of using quotes out of context and speculation as a cover for your ignorance.

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At 1/26/08 12:11 AM, Memorize wrote: So basically, you just love shoving things up your ass.

Thats why I was with your mom yesterday, she has a lot of dildos.

Does it feel good when you squeeze your buttcheeks together? Awe...

Yes, especially with your dad fondling my balls and your mom sucking my nipples.

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The amount of fucktards in this thread is very depressing.

'Islam is taking over' 'It's like World War Two'

There are organisations of terror which commit their acts in the name of Islam by lying to and inciting fellow Muslims to kill people. There are also one or two rogue Islamic states, just as there are of other religions.

There is no single body of Islam which is plotting to take over. The people in organisations such as Al-Qaeda want this, yes, but just because idiot newspapers like the Daily Mail give them voice, doesn't mean that they are the majority.

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At 1/27/08 04:44 PM, TheRoyalEnglishman wrote: The amount of fucktards in this thread is very depressing.

Fucktards? Ahh, the left side again, getting personnal. It's interesting to watch that in so many countrys, the left side seems to have leased the values "moral", "peace" and "justice".
Too bad there are still people with different opinions, huh?

There is no single body of Islam which is plotting to take over. The people in organisations such as Al-Qaeda want this, yes, but just because idiot newspapers like the Daily Mail give them voice, doesn't mean that they are the majority.

There is no single body of Islam? Interesting!
So, would you please be so kind and explain the 2006 cartoon-riots, when 1,5 Billion muslims all over the world were acting upset over a bunch of harmless cartoons, and the p.c., whiny press didn't even
show this cartoons, wtf? Out of respect? More out of wet pants.

I don't demand a genocide against muslims, god, no! I just think, that if they move to western countries, they'd have to accept our values - and not force us to accept their. I mean, if I moved to Teheran (which is as likely as to cut my nose off), I'd too made my wife wear a burkha in public (I'd just have to, otherwise there would be some lashing - HOORAY!)
I wouldn't walk around in shorts, forcing my western values up upon them. If the people there want to live that way, fine - but don't export medieval values to the west!

Unfortunately, that's exactly what's happening at this very moment...
Oh and lapis, the german elections in Hessen were fought today - it was a tremendous win for the left side, compared to the last elections... that's a good example for left-wing-green media manipulating the stupid masses (the conservative canidate, Roland Koch, actually dared to choose "violenve amongst immigrants" as his campaign-theme, and got literally ripped apart by the media *sigh* )

However, have a nice day.

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At 1/27/08 04:44 PM, TheRoyalEnglishman wrote: There are organisations of terror which commit their acts in the name of Islam by lying to and inciting fellow Muslims to kill people. There are also one or two rogue Islamic states, just as there are of other religions.
There is no single body of Islam which is plotting to take over. The people in organisations such as Al-Qaeda want this, yes, but just because idiot newspapers like the Daily Mail give them voice, doesn't mean that they are the majority.

I'm with you on that.

If Islam was one big body, the civilians in Iraq would not be thanking our soldiers. They'd harbor ill will towards them, probably.

It's the terrorist groups who tempt young, malleable minds from schools and teach them to hate America. They basically twist the Koran and tell the kids how America has one goal only: to eradicate Islam.

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At 1/27/08 05:11 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote: Fucktards? Ahh, the left side again, getting personnal. It's interesting to watch that in so many countrys, the left side seems to have leased the values "moral", "peace" and "justice".
Too bad there are still people with different opinions, huh?

I don't mind a right-wing point of view. The people here, however, are not representing that view. Most of you are just being ignorant, that's the way it is.

So, would you please be so kind and explain the 2006 cartoon-riots, when 1,5 Billion muslims

LMAO! You realise that that is the exact number of Muslims living on Earth as shown here?

Oh wait no, you don't. Because you just lied.

Again.

all over the world were acting upset over a bunch of harmless cartoons, and the p.c., whiny press didn't even show this cartoons, wtf? Out of respect? More out of wet pants.

How about because they didn't want to cause offence? You wouldn't know anything about the offence this type of thing would cause anyway.

By the way, quite a few across Europe did.

I absolutely hate those people waving those stupid banners and attacking embassies but in the protests they were the minority. Most of the people were simply exercising their right to a peaceful protest because, guess what, the cartoon offended them.

I don't demand a genocide against muslims, god, no! I just think, that if they move to western countries, they'd have to accept our values - and not force us to accept their.

Our values? Drinking, smoking, drugs? No, they can stick to traditional Islam for all I care as long as it isn't breaking the law.

And since when have ANYONE forced you to accept their values?

I wouldn't walk around in shorts, forcing my western values up upon them. If the people there want to live that way, fine - but don't export medieval values to the west!

Hang on, I thought we were supposed to be the free society. Let them wear whatever they want.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what's happening at this very moment...

Like I said, you're a bullshitter.

Everything you have said in this thread is pure rubbish. Either old wives' tales or untrue rumours has propped up your baseless claims.

Oh and lapis, the german elections in Hessen were fought today - it was a tremendous win for the left side, compared to the last elections... that's a good example for left-wing-green media manipulating the stupid masses

OH NO, FREE PRESS!

What will they think of next?

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At 1/27/08 05:11 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote: Fucktards? Ahh, the left side again, getting personnal.

Dude, if you genuinely abhor using slurs when describing people you disagree with then calling your opponents "left-wing, apologizing pacifistic faggots" isn't going to make people take your all-encompassing feeling of disgust seriously.

Oh and lapis, the german elections in Hessen were fought today - it was a tremendous win for the left side, compared to the last elections... that's a good example for left-wing-green media manipulating the stupid masses

I haven't really been following the elections in the länder, but people in Hessen are probably not as affected by the problems that you consider to bring about the downfall of Europe as you think you are. That's democracy: if people are really suffering due to the actions of Muslim immigrants then they'll vote for parties that they expect to do something about it. And there are no laws in Germany that forbid the founding of a conservative privately-held broadcasting agency that could counter this vast left-wing media conspiracy. So that's capitalism: if people are really suffering due to the actions of Muslim immigrants then they'll want to tune in to a news channel that doesn't forcefeed them pacifist, apologising propaganda. I can't say that I see what you're getting at here.

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No! Stay over there! We have enough ignorant, Islam-hating, racist, intolerant pigs over here already.

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Yes, he did go to a Muslim School. But he is not Muslim in faith whatsoever. I don't know why everyone is on him for going to a Muslim School! It's not like it was something he could control at that age.

Seriously it's no different than going to a Catholic School in the US.

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Wait, wut?

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At 1/27/08 03:42 PM, chocolate-penguin wrote: Yes Vigilante, let's bring up problems that happened centuries ago to try to put Islam and Christianity on the same level of violence.

Wow, you completely missed the point. The point in bringing up Christianity was to show that religions themselves can be interpreted as both promoting and opposing violence depending on the situation of the day, with Christianity as a case study. It was NOT an attempt to simply state that Christianity was just as bad at some point. This was explicitly spelled out in my post. I even gave an example where Christianity was completely nonviolent and even encouraged one to be tortured to death before striking a blow at others.

The overall point was the Islam has had periods where the predominant interpretation was one that was tolerant, which entirely disproves your point about Islam itself being inherently violent. In a different thread, I gave an outline of how radical Islam came to be. You have done nothing to disprove any of my points.

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At 1/27/08 11:35 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Wait, wut?

That's a photoshop. I posted the original one on the first page.

But I guess the point still stands. Some Muslims react to criticism that Islam is violent... by becoming violent or calling for violence. Thus simultaneously validating the criticism while objecting to it.

It's hilarious irony.

"How dare you say we are barbaric? We will now behead you and your whole family for saying such things!"

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At 1/26/08 10:51 PM, Empanado wrote:

So you seem to strongly favor religious tradition, cultural identity and national security in detriment of free speech and personal liberties, support police brutality and advocate for a black and white view on world affairs.

Have you ever thought of becoming a high-ranked radical muslim? Because you seem to be cut out just right for the job.

I think the guy has a point, though. Giving these radical people democratic rights in the West is accomplishing nothing but to the eventual collapse of the West.

If two kids are front to front, and one is allowed to punch, and the other isn't, well, guess what? The kid giving the punches will win.

You can't really expect to democratically convince people whose only and one track mind is "Destroy Christianity.", "Kill infidel women.", "Burn churches.", "Occident is the Devil.", "Europe will have its 9/11 too.", "Christian kids are the seeds of evil." Face it, when these guys get repressed in countries such as Poland, they were asking for it.

You speak shit about he wanting to defend cultural traditions. Don't Muslim nations do the same? How the fuck do you think Iranian people would react if some European girls went to Iran and went out in bikinis? These people don't have any intentions of peacefully coexisting with the rest of the people. They already have got their nations, where they are free to practice their religion freely and in the best way they see fit, but yet all they do is threaten to invade and destroy European nations / other nations just because they don't worship Allah and Prophet Mohammed.

And don't ever think that I am a fan of Bush or anything. Bush is essentially one money hungry bastard. But still, I am seeing things for what they are.

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At 1/27/08 05:26 PM, TheRoyalEnglishman wrote:
I don't mind a right-wing point of view. The people here, however, are not representing that view. Most of you are just being ignorant, that's the way it is.

Look, if you want your mother, your sister, and your girlfriend being forced to wear a burkha and being lashed, thats your problem. But there are plenty of people out here (like me), who don't. So stop using your leftist tactis of calling people ignorant when they don't agree with you. You are the one with a cock in the eyes, not us. It hasn't been us Christians / other religions who said that Islam should be destroyed. It has been the other way around. Islam threatens non-Islamic nations everytime they can, for no legitimate reason.

Muslims hate the fact that women in Europe / other such nations don't wear burkhas and don't get lashed everytime there is a doubt about them. They will never accept that the World is a different place from Iran, Egyp, Sirya, etc, because Prophet Mohammed pretty much taught them that non-Muslims, sooner or later, have got to dissappear.

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Has anyone ever looked at the root cause of what has been going on here? In the United States, we aren't having nearly the amount of problems Europeans are having with Muslim populations. I'll admit that I'm not very well informed about the current situation in Europe, but it is my understanding that Muslim populations have never been very well integrated into European society, and that they form an underclass for the most part or are at least not accepted socially (and any information anyone has on to that end either way would be appreciated). In the United States, Muslims have pretty much the same opportunity for advancement as other groups in this nation, so there isn't the barrier.

The problem I believe is the fact that this group isn't integrated, and like many groups in the past is now organizing around what it is that makes them different, which in this case would be Islam. This has a tendency to radicalize the marginalized group, and often, to compensate, the group in question amplifies those differences and fights to assert them when before they wouldn't have bothered thinking about them. This is how radical Islam came to be in the Middle East in the first place. If I am right, the proposed solutions by many in this thread are not going to fix the situation but will instead further radicalize the dissidents.

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At 1/28/08 01:49 AM, SomeNick wrote: I think the guy has a point, though. Giving these radical people democratic rights in the West is accomplishing nothing but to the eventual collapse of the West.

You mean, just like any other hate group who has abused free speech has brought Western civilization to its downfall by now? I mean, the Black Panthers, Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam, and their preaching against "blue-eyed white devils" 30 years ago -- boy, did those guys completely bring America to its knees, as we can clearly see today. The KKK and the Aryan nation exercise their right to call for the slaughtering of ni'ers, kikes and spics, and hell, they've completely taken over the entire country! Huge followings! The everlasting respect and reverence of public opinion! Let's not forget those radical anarcho-communists in Western Bloc nations during the Cold War, advocating for a bloody revolution and the destruction of bourgois culture- So MANY developed nations switched over to the red side.

This isn't the first time that a minority of any kind goes violent -- and it will follow the exact same logic that it has followed before in any developed country with a functional democracy - the general population is at first dumbfounded, then confused, then scared, and then everything dies off because the benefits of the Free World > stupid radicalism and sectarianism. Islamic radicalism in the west is, quite simply, a minority hate group. And these things are quite straight-forward: offer these minorities a simple, non-violent way to assimilate into the main culture, and (dangerous) radicals will be shunned.

If two kids are front to front, and one is allowed to punch, and the other isn't, well, guess what? The kid giving the punches will win.

Except that, in reality, none of these kids are allowed to punch. They are allowed, at most, to say naughty words. Crime is illegal, remember? And it's illegal both for Muslims and for dirty kuffãr. If there are stupid judges who are willing to let murderers or sociopaths on the loose, then that's a completely different issue.

You can't really expect to democratically convince people whose only and one track mind is "Destroy Christianity.", "Kill infidel women.", "Burn churches.", "Occident is the Devil.", "Europe will have its 9/11 too.", "Christian kids are the seeds of evil." Face it, when these guys get repressed in countries such as Poland, they were asking for it.

They'll get repressed for what they need to be repressed - bombing and burning shit up, punching and stabbing people, et cetera. These things are repressed because they are repressable things. But it's pretty obvious that it's only a small fraction of muslims commiting heinous acts, or else Europe would have been obliterated by now. Why are those other muslims not burning cars or people? Either because they are doing okay or because they're not fucking insane. Considering that every immigrant group in history, by simple logic, eventually starts faring better, not worse, logic dictates that muslims will become less violent. If crazy muslim fringe groups weren't allowed to yell about beheading people or whatever (let's differentiate between saying and doing) they'd become even crazier than they are.

You speak shit about he wanting to defend cultural traditions. Don't Muslim nations do the same?

And that was exactly my point. I don't defend the governments of muslim nations- these places showcase an endless parade of crazy warmongering muslims with AK's and nasty signs because they're mostly governed by people on the insane side of mental health. Therefore, the 10% of maniacs in the population is encouraged to be as mind-boggingly fanatical as they can be, and the remaining 90% of normal people is beaten down into fear and submission. How is this any different than any other dictatorship?

This guy in question suggested that the West should have supported Slobodan Milosevic because the man wanted to ethnically cleanse his land from (i.e. commit a barbaric genocide on) muslims, amongst other groups. That, in my book, is called being a fuckin nutjob. A fucking nutjob not unlike those appearing on the media calling for the destruction of Western civilization.

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At 1/27/08 05:26 PM, TheRoyalEnglishman wrote:

I don't mind a right-wing point of view. The people here, however, are not representing that view. Most of you are just being ignorant, that's the way it is.

Aww, sure. Evil right-wings, all ignorant bastards. Ironically, I don't even consider me right wing - to be that around here, you've got to hate America, Israel and the evil, evil Jews.
Nah, I even appreciate immigration, they're a value in our countrys I wouldn't want to miss - if they accept our values, like I said.

LMAO! You realise that that is the exact number of Muslims living on Earth as shown here?

Oh wait no, you don't. Because you just lied.

Again.

Your statement should have made me laught, but it didn't.
However, I just wanted to take out "Hurra, wir kapitulieren" by Henrik M. Broder, to source my statement, but hey, just type in "1.5 billion muslims upset" in Google, you'll get a whole lot of statements claiming that they're upset as an entity, among others articles in the "Times" and "BBC".
Sure, that's a ridiculous idea - 1 500 000 000 people upset about a bunch of cartoons, I mean, wtf? Anyways, our medias and politics are bowing down to the muslim officials, just not to offend them. I highly doubt that it's even possible to offend all of them, but interestingly, our media is fearing exactly this.

How about because they didn't want to cause offence? You wouldn't know anything about the offence this type of thing would cause anyway.

As I said. So you say "Omg let's stay quiet, or the evil evil extremists (which got nothing to do with Islam) will be even angrier and bomb us!!"
You know what's that called? Appeasement. It didn't work with Hitler, and it won't work now.
As Churchill said: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

Why should't we insist on free speach? If we bow down to the demands of the Islamists, they'll demand even more, it's only natural. No wonder that they see the West as decadent and weak.

By the way, quite a few across Europe did.

I absolutely hate those people waving those stupid banners and attacking embassies but in the protests they were the minority. Most of the people were simply exercising their right to a peaceful protest because, guess what, the cartoon offended them.

You mean this protesters?
Sure, they suck. But where were the peaceful ones? Please, be so kind and show them to me.

Our values? Drinking, smoking, drugs? No, they can stick to traditional Islam for all I care as long as it isn't breaking the law.

XD
Yeah, sure! Evil smokers! Bastards! Let's join all the Islam and be free of all bondages of vice and - no wait, why are then 2,8% of the Iranian population addicted to the oh-so-harmless heroine? (that's the highest rate in the world)
According to this source, a shot of healthy heroine in Teheran costs less than a package of evil zigarettes - great!
Furthermore, out of the 250 000 addicted Iranians, 25% are HIV-positive.

Yes, I agree, we should introduce their superior culture as fast as possible over here. Let's have some lashing!

And since when have ANYONE forced you to accept their values?

If you'd take a look onto certain german "cultural enriched" areas, like the districts "Neukölln" and "Kreuzberg" - there, for exampe?
80% of the families there are migrants - now the police is protecting 29 schools from extremely violent turish/arabic youth-gangs, where discrimination against germans and

Oh, you believe there's no ethnic connection between the rioting in Berlin's schools and ethnic background? Well, then take a look at

this (in German, pdf, here's a cited html-version, so you can translate)

Senior prosecutor Roman Reusch, publisher of this statement, was banned from appearing in TV by his superiors and lateron "moved" from his post, for submitting this. (his superiors were socialists, of course)

The union of the police in Berlin went as far as claiming, that certain parts of the metropole are already "lost" - means cannot be savely approached, especially at night, by non-immigrants.

Churches are already transformed into Mosques there, and a judge even adjudicated upon a case of abusent in a muslim family that way, that the husband had, according to muslim law, the right to beat his wife.

Umm... no, I can't see mulsim values being forved upon us anywhere. *cough*

Hang on, I thought we were supposed to be the free society. Let them wear whatever they want.

Yeah. Let's let them beat theit wives and kids, mutilate them. Sure - why the fuck did you care about the jews in The Third Reich, anyways?
OHH, sorry. An exaggerated comparison. Islam has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Nazis or antisemitism. Silly me.

Like I said, you're a bullshitter.

Uh-hu.

Everything you have said in this thread is pure rubbish. Either old wives' tales or untrue rumours has propped up your baseless claims.

Yep.

OH NO, FREE PRESS!

What will they think of next?

Yeah, free press, horray! Fueling modern socialist's heads with the values of yesterday!
If you follow a few conservative blogs over the time, you'll make out your own opinion out of the established media.
But that's only my opinion.

However, pity that most sources are in German. But I'm sure you can translate them.
Oh and, let's keep the personal offenses out of this, mkay? I'm sure you're a nice person, and this is a politics forum.
And yeah, I also made mistakes or got to personal - I'm apologizing for that.

However, have a nice day.

---

Whoops, just realized I didn't finish a sentence...

:"80% of the families there are migrants - now the police is protecting 29 schools from extremely violent turish/arabic youth-gangs, where discrimination against germans and"
harrasment happen on a daily base.

So, that would be it.

Have a nice day.

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At 1/28/08 07:52 AM, Austrian-Mats wrote: Aww, sure. Evil right-wings, all ignorant bastards. Ironically, I don't even consider me right wing - to be that around here, you've got to hate America, Israel and the evil, evil Jews.

You're right. You're not right-wing, you're just fifty years behind the times.

However, I just wanted to take out "Hurra, wir kapitulieren" by Henrik M. Broder

Who, by the looks of things, is an extreme-right Jew.

to source my statement, but hey, just type in "1.5 billion muslims upset" in Google, you'll get a whole lot of statements claiming that they're upset as an entity, among others articles in the "Times" and "BBC".

Yes, but why would anyone write about the people who aren't upset?

Besides, I was right. You just made that figure up. A lot more Muslims didn't march, but that's a boring story.

Sure, that's a ridiculous idea - 1 500 000 000 people upset about a bunch of cartoons, I mean, wtf? Anyways, our medias and politics are bowing down to the muslim officials, just not to offend them. I highly doubt that it's even possible to offend all of them, but interestingly, our media is fearing exactly this.

While you are willing to plough right on and offend as many as you can.

As I said. So you say "Omg let's stay quiet, or the evil evil extremists (which got nothing to do with Islam) will be even angrier and bomb us!!"
You know what's that called? Appeasement.

Hahahahaha, no it isn't. It's not because of fear, it's because they don't want to alienate possible customers. And I'd say that the extremer section of Muslims would have been pushed into terrorism after seeing those cartoons.

Why should't we insist on free speach? If we bow down to the demands of the Islamists, they'll demand even more, it's only natural. No wonder that they see the West as decadent and weak.

Not Islamists, Muslims. There's a difference.

They can print whatever they like. But they won't want to print crude images which offend people for no reason.

You mean this protesters?
Sure, they suck. But where were the peaceful ones? Please, be so kind and show them to me.

Hahaha, you won't be seeing them in newspapers, if that's what you mean. But that's not a shocking image so what editor would include it?

If it makes you happy, there you are.

Yeah, sure! Evil smokers! Bastards! Let's join all the Islam and be free of all bondages of vice and - no wait, why are then 2,8% of the Iranian population addicted to the oh-so-harmless heroine? (that's the highest rate in the world)
According to this source, a shot of healthy heroine in Teheran costs less than a package of evil zigarettes - great!
Furthermore, out of the 250 000 addicted Iranians, 25% are HIV-positive.
Yes, I agree, we should introduce their superior culture as fast as possible over here. Let's have some lashing!

Totally missed the point.

Our values are different.

If you'd take a look onto certain german "cultural enriched" areas, like the districts "Neukölln" and "Kreuzberg" - there, for exampe?

Immigrants who live there? What does that say about an Islamic takeover?

80% of the families there are migrants - now the police is protecting 29 schools from extremely violent turish/arabic youth-gangs, where discrimination against germans and

Hahaha, they're not doing it in the name of Islam.

Again, totally unrelated.

Oh, you believe there's no ethnic connection between the rioting in Berlin's schools and ethnic background? Well, then take a look at
this (in German, pdf, here's a cited html-version, so you can translate)

'Ethnic background', nothing about Muslims or indeed Islam.

Anyway, it's because they're poorer areas of the community.

Senior prosecutor Roman Reusch, publisher of this statement, was banned from appearing in TV by his superiors and lateron "moved" from his post, for submitting this. (his superiors were socialists, of course)

Because he is a Nazi who was probably trying to create a link between race and crime.

The union of the police in Berlin went as far as claiming, that certain parts of the metropole are already "lost" - means cannot be savely approached, especially at night, by non-immigrants.

By everyone, because Berlin, like most cities, has its rough bits.

You are adding two and two to make five.

Churches are already transformed into Mosques there, and a judge even adjudicated upon a case of abusent in a muslim family that way, that the husband had, according to muslim law, the right to beat his wife.

Wow, one pin-up case. I suppose that's all you have, isn't it?

Umm... no, I can't see mulsim values being forved upon us anywhere. *cough*

So you just said that Muslim values are violence and rioting.

If a Muslim was reading this, you would have just offended them. Good job!

Yeah. Let's let them beat theit wives and kids, mutilate them. Sure - why the fuck did you care about the jews in The Third Reich, anyways?

How is Hitler's birthplace these days?

By the way, I said as long as they comply to our laws, but you only read what you want to.

OHH, sorry. An exaggerated comparison. Islam has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Nazis or antisemitism. Silly me.

Hahahahaha, so Hitler was secretly Muslim?

If you follow a few conservative blogs over the time, you'll make out your own opinion out of the established media.

Aha, the internet.

Home of the weird, the wonderful and the extreme.

This is where you've been getting your rubbish from.

But that's only my opinion.

Oh and, let's keep the personal offenses out of this, mkay? I'm sure you're a nice person, and this is a politics forum.

OK, from now on. Even if you're wrong.

But I can't be arsed to trawl through this post to correct any 'offenses', because I can't be bothered to do that for you.

From now on, sure.

---

Well, while I kind of disagree, Empanado gave a somewhat decent reply. At least it doesn't seem to be full of a one side point of view.

But the RoyalEnglishman is a different story. He is basically defending Muslims on every possible front, and has basically criticized the West of being too harsh. Geez, he even called that Police Officer a Nazi for saying they had lost an area in Berlin.

Well, it certainly is not my problem, RoyalEnglishman. Your sisters and your daughters can wear a burkha for all I care, these women are probably not good looking anyways.

Anyways, I have met at least 5 people from Iran, and none of them seemed friendly at all, and all seemed rather arrogant or even somewhat violent.

1- Zhinous: This was an Iranian girl. I had to do a joint work with her at university. While I was just focused on getting the job done, she was all arrogant towards me all the time. Telling me that everything I made was wrong, that she knew better, that Persians had created math, when other cultures were in its infancy, and so on. Finally she had it her way. The score obtained in said work? C-.

2- Amin: A 15 year old kid that was (somehow) invited to a party where I was. All he said is that he dreamt to learn how to make bombs to fight against USA, Israel, Europe, and so on. Apparently he was born to a Swiss woman, but to an Iranian father. He said Europe was boring and flat, that he wanted to go to Iran that it was cool to be with his father and join an anti-West militia.

3- Hassan: Another arrogant prick I met in college, he said that Islam and Communism rocked because they cared about people. One day he wanted to kiss me, I pushed him away, he said he was black belt in Tae Kwondo and at that point I managed to grab a long bar from somewhere. He quited down. He was also very, very, very pro-Persian to the point of being annoying. Luckily, I didn't have to endure this person for a long time, he had toleave from colleged due to extremely low grades.

4-Latiffa: Another Iranian girl, she accused me of being a racist because some of MY FRIENDS hated Persia (Iran today).

5-Nasira: Probably the least annoying of the five, this Iranian woman constantly told me that European women had nos tyle and that they were all sluts.

I know I should not base my feelings towards an entire population because of 5 people, but hell, then it happened that I met all of the pricks from the group myself. That, coupled with what is constantly is said in the news, is enough to make me feel distrust towards Iranian people. Maybe they would do better in their own country?

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At 1/29/08 03:28 PM, SomeNick wrote: But the RoyalEnglishman is a different story. He is basically defending Muslims on every possible front, and has basically criticized the West of being too harsh. Geez, he even called that Police Officer a Nazi for saying they had lost an area in Berlin.

Wrong. What a liar.

Well, it certainly is not my problem, RoyalEnglishman. Your sisters and your daughters can wear a burkha for all I care, these women are probably not good looking anyways.

Hahahaha, was that supposed to be an insult?

Anyways, I have met at least 5 people from Iran, and none of them seemed friendly at all, and all seemed rather arrogant or even somewhat violent.

I don't give a fuck.

You probably met each other on an arsehole forum, where arseholes meet.

That, coupled with what is constantly is said in the news, is enough to make me feel distrust towards Iranian people.

Hahahaha, a supreme example of stupidity.

I won't bother explaining why.