Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 10/31/09 01:52 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: If my choosing bulwarkmannshaft is a result of initial conditions and a bunch of differential equations I would be very surprised, even if I were to take incertainty into the equation.

You're arguing from incredulity. All you're saying is that you think it's silly without giving a reason why. If I throw a die with a hundred sides, there's still physical laws that decide which side it's going to land on.

At 10/31/09 01:57 PM, Elfer wrote:
You're arguing from incredulity. All you're saying is that you think it's silly without giving a reason why. If I throw a die with a hundred sides, there's still physical laws that decide which side it's going to land on.

One can predict the outcome of the die by analising the dynamics of it. Chaos effects or not. Of course, we're not physically able to do so, but in theory, the throw of a die is determined as soon as it leaves my hand.
But if I were to choose for a leaded die, my choice should not be affected by physics of the outside world. Even if I have a goal to go for and my motives may be to win a game, that motive means nothing on the scale of the universe

This should be in the general forum you asshat mods, why is this in the political forum? This website is based in America and Americas state is separated from religion.

At 10/31/09 02:05 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

But if I were to choose for a leaded die, my choice should not be affected by physics of the outside world.

Huuuh... why?

At 10/31/09 03:43 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/31/09 02:05 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

But if I were to choose for a leaded die, my choice should not be affected by physics of the outside world.

Huuuh... why?

Even according to the laws of physics, stochastics and chaos is merely a result of us not being able to fully estimate all initial positions and all applied forces in an event, but thye result is predetermined anyway.

But there is no natural law that tells me which random decisions I consciously make.
Laws of physics can tell me I will fall if I lose my balance, but they can not tell me to go to the kitchen and make me a tuna sandwich.

At 10/31/09 01:02 AM, Bacchanalian wrote: Worshiping a divine force isn't all that original. It's just an application of sentience, something very near and dear to us.

This, and for omnicient, omnipotent and eternally benevolent beings, gods tend to act a lot like people for no good reason. It is also no coincidence that most gods are usually regarded as the man in the sky or something of the sort. They always have an anthropomorphic personification of some sort. More abstract views like Deism and Gnosticism come along when the religion has been kicking around for a while and someone questions why the god should restrict itslef in a humanoid form, when they can be anything.

At 10/31/09 03:55 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: But there is no natural law
Laws of physics

Well hey now. Are you asking for a single law or a collection of laws?

Laws of physics can tell me I will fall if I lose my balance, but they can not tell me to go to the kitchen and make me a tuna sandwich.

No on is disputing that we can't accurately apply the laws of physics to decision making.

The argument is whether, regardless of our ability to apply the laws, they are intrinsically involved in decision making.

And I really really really don't understand how your reply explains how, in theory, switching from a normal die to a weighted die suddenly renders one's choice [about what anyway? you weren't very clear on this] as unaffected by the physical world. Better yet... what relation does that have to being able to predict what the dice does [you know... what you'd opened the very same paragraph with]? If anything, weighting the die simplifies the chaos in the hypothetical example, making a physical model MORE applicable.

At 10/31/09 03:55 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

But there is no natural law that tells me which random decisions I consciously make.

And this is based on what?
The only possible way that could be true is if your brain was composed of some element that wasn't part of the physical world.

Seeing as its not, I could use your reasoning to say that, say, computers who make random decisions do so not based on the laws of physics, which anyone can plainly see is false.

At 10/31/09 02:05 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: But if I were to choose for a leaded die, my choice should not be affected by physics of the outside world.

No? You would lead the die by using your hands to put weights in. What are your muscles connected to?
Nerves. Whata re your nerves connected to? Your brain.
What in you brain decides how to send signals to the nerves to tell them what to do? Neurons.
What feeds signals to the neurons in your brain that causes them to fire? Your eyes, skin, etc.
What are those organs connected to?
The outside world

You can't separate your mind from your brain, and you can't separate your brain from the physical world. Too bad.

At 11/1/09 12:23 AM, poxpower wrote:

At 10/31/09 03:55 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

Seeing as its not, I could use your reasoning to say that, say, computers who make random decisions do so not based on the laws of physics, which anyone can plainly see is false.

Computers are incapable of random decisions. It all boils down to an algorithm. The only thing that makes them seem more random is the outcome is generally determined by a number that is constantly changing, IE the clock.

At 11/1/09 12:23 AM, poxpower wrote:
Seeing as its not, I could use your reasoning to say that, say, computers who make random decisions do so not based on the laws of physics, which anyone can plainly see is false.

Computers who work randomly are based upon a mathematical algoritm, using simple (mathematic) picking methods. They don't make their decisions out of a conscious intention.

At 11/1/09 12:33 AM, Elfer wrote:

At 10/31/09 02:05 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: But if I were to choose for a leaded die, my choice should not be affected by physics of the outside world.

No? You would lead the die by using your hands to put weights in. What are your muscles connected to?
Nerves. Whata re your nerves connected to? Your brain.
What in you brain decides how to send signals to the nerves to tell them what to do? Neurons.
What feeds signals to the neurons in your brain that causes them to fire? Your eyes, skin, etc.
What are those organs connected to?
The outside world

You can't separate your mind from your brain, and you can't separate your brain from the physical world. Too bad.

Tell me then, what stimulation causes me to date that one girl, stay faithful to her and not date some other girl I met. What physics stimulus prevents me from going to the kitchen now and instead type this here? What stimulus makes me stand up now, jump in the air twice and dance around Russian style.

It's hard to imagine that the word I'm typing now in the discussion I'm participating in now are predetermined by the position of all the particles in the universe 20 minutes ago.

At 11/1/09 06:12 AM, RubberTrucky wrote:
Computers who work randomly are based upon a mathematical algoritm, using simple (mathematic) picking methods. They don't make their decisions out of a conscious intention.

And what makes you think the brain is any different?
Undoubtedly, the random number generator in the brain is extremely sophisticated, but I doubt it's anywhere close to perfect.

Tell me then, what stimulation causes me to date that one girl, stay faithful to her and not date some other girl I met. What physics stimulus prevents me from going to the kitchen now and instead type this here? What stimulus makes me stand up now, jump in the air twice and dance around Russian style.

It's hard to imagine that the word I'm typing now in the discussion I'm participating in now are predetermined by the position of all the particles in the universe 20 minutes ago.

It's no one stimulus, but a complex interaction of an uncountable number of stimuli. Your choice of women is determined by genetics, nurture, interactions with other women over the years, and so on. Asking us to figure out what makes you like X or do Y is like asking the position of any given atom in 20 minutes time: pretty much impossible, but it doesn't mean there aren't physics behind it.

As for predetermination, physics doesn't imply that. The universe is inherently stochastic thanks to quantum mechanics. There is inherent uncertainty in everything.

At 11/1/09 07:54 AM, IETFB wrote:

At 11/1/09 06:12 AM, RubberTrucky wrote:
Computers who work randomly are based upon a mathematical algoritm, using simple (mathematic) picking methods. They don't make their decisions out of a conscious intention.

And what makes you think the brain is any different?

I hold on that the way we pick our choices is to benefit ourself or to benefit some other beings. Our actions and intentions are not random, nor according to a preset natural law.

Tell me then, what stimulation causes me to date that one girl, stay faithful to her and not date some other girl I met. What physics stimulus prevents me from going to the kitchen now and instead type this here? What stimulus makes me stand up now, jump in the air twice and dance around Russian style.

It's hard to imagine that the word I'm typing now in the discussion I'm participating in now are predetermined by the position of all the particles in the universe 20 minutes ago.

It's no one stimulus, but a complex interaction of an uncountable number of stimuli. Your choice of women is determined by genetics, nurture, interactions with other women over the years, and so on.

All these variables are not dependent on fundamental laws of physics.

I still feel it's far from logical to assume that even within quantum uncertainty the exact deliberate thought I'm having right now is not steered by myself, but by the dynamics of the universe. That assumption, I feel is as likely as saying that God put those thoughts in my head.

At 11/1/09 09:10 AM, RubberTrucky wrote:
I hold on that the way we pick our choices is to benefit ourself or to benefit some other beings. Our actions and intentions are not random, nor according to a preset natural law.

I thought we were talking about apparently random decisions, like typing a nonsensical word?
Oh well, decisions for benefit are even easier to reason. All the brain needs is an (admittedly complex) algorithm for weighing the benefits of various courses of actions to determine what's best, and it doesn't have to be random (though it probably have random variables in the algorithm somewhere).

All these variables are not dependent on fundamental laws of physics.

What makes you so sure?

I still feel it's far from logical to assume that even within quantum uncertainty the exact deliberate thought I'm having right now is not steered by myself, but by the dynamics of the universe. That assumption, I feel is as likely as saying that God put those thoughts in my head.

It's entirely logical to assume that one kind of electronic machine, like a computer, works in a similar way to another, like the brain, without the need to invoke supernatural forces.

At 11/1/09 09:10 AM, RubberTrucky wrote: All these variables are not dependent on fundamental laws of physics.

Could you maybe explain how any stimuli your brain receives are not dependent on physical laws? Keep in mind that people's brains run on physics.

Atheism is thinking.Not being stuck in a single theory."Thinking people" scares Christians and other religions.

At 10/31/09 01:02 AM, Bacchanalian wrote: Worshiping a divine force isn't all that original. It's just an application of sentience, something very near and dear to us. It's not that difficult to get from water to a personification-of-water.

I'm confused. Your theory doesn't exactly strike me as a response or alternative to the multiplicity of theism. It seems like one could believe in one god and still hold to your theory... unless I'm misunderstanding something?

Exactly. The theory itself isn't Atheism. It's based around God being the sum of all matter and energy, controlled by consciousness. That means that an area whose majority believes in a certain religion will manipulate their surroundings in addition to their perception to find evidence supporting their beliefs.

Just like other planets have different physics depending on its mass, gravity, etc. certain areas of the Earth may or may not be prone to certain situations, depending on religions demographics.

At 11/3/09 11:19 PM, Kwing wrote: controlled by consciousness.

I can't tell from your post if you mean that in...

sense 1) I am conscious of my intent to open a door, and so I extend my hand, turn the knob, and open the door (with my hand/arm/body).

sense 2) I am conscious of my intent to open a door, so I concentrate and the door opens (by the sheer power of my will).

the power of god is in all of us, because god is everything. human thought has the power to create, and affect our reality. there is so much we don't know about the brain... we only use a very small percentage of it.

At 11/11/09 12:48 AM, luddite wrote: we only use a very small percentage of it.

Bullshit. We use the whole brain.

At 11/11/09 08:59 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

At 11/11/09 12:48 AM, luddite wrote: we only use a very small percentage of it.

Bullshit. We use the whole brain.

It's true. Take a look here. I talked to my biology teacher about how this was true, but she doesn't think it was true. I guess it is something few people know about.