Forum Topic: "official" atheism vs. non atheism

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Gobblemeister

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Posted at: 10/27/09 01:37 AM

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At 10/27/09 01:20 AM, Warforger wrote:
At 10/27/09 01:08 AM, Gobblemeister wrote:

Now, you sort of missed the point of what I was trying to say, both Unicorns and God have the same amount of evidence to back them up; none, so why would you say Unicorns don't exist when you believe in God? That's like laughing at a Scietnologists beliefs if your Christian.
Then please, enlighten me, what are the origins of what we call science, what created the atoms upon which all matter is formed, give me a plausible explanation that does not at all include God

Good Luck
Its a WIP, but its probably some crazy shit which would blow your mind, but I do not like Science all that much.

You seem to believe that the concept of God is above other imaginary concepts, tell me a plausible explanation about how God is real instead of texts making excuses.

Everyday I see diagrams of our respiratory system, or hear of miracles, people who survive accidents by the faintest of margins. Isee these things and think that something must have had the intelligent design to see it all and create it so that it worked so well in tandem. To see a man just escape a car crash alive by a hair, one cannot truly believe this happens by chance when you hear of it so often.


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darkrchaos

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Posted at: 10/27/09 02:57 AM

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But still, if he is the god of good, and all knowing, he should understand why you did that. he shouldn't send you hell to suffer forever just because you were trying to help the world. that's messed up


He doesn't send you to Hell for not believing in him, he sends you to Hell for rejecting him and trying to sway the hearts of his loyal believers
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2good2b4goten

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Posted at: 10/27/09 04:24 AM

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At 10/27/09 01:17 AM, Warforger wrote: If there is a high power, can we detect it?

No. The Agnostic side believes that even if there were a higher power then we could never actually prove it.

Then how would we know if we can't find it? I mean using this logic Unicorns are real, if a God where real, wouldn't you think he would try and stop religious conflicts?

Difference is the concept of 'Unicorns' themselves are mythical creatures that once/do live on our planet. The fact is that majority of our planet is explored. Not all of it, but enough to warrant a very strong amount of evidence to prove that in no time 'Unicorns' existed.

Now, a higher power? The only way to really know that a higher power exists is to die and stay dead. Hell, even then you mightn't find out. What if there's a higher power that's simply flawed and doesn't care about us? You simply cannot detect that, ever. Thus, we won't know. Thus, I'll keep the concept of a higher power open, even if I don't technically believe in him.

So if someone claims to have spoken with God and he goes and burns down a abortion clinic during day light and kills 20 people, how is that different then when a pastor says he's spoken with God? Both claim too have spoken with him, but neither can prove they have actually spoken with someone no one can find.

Because we still need to respect the rights and laws of mankind. If God were as benevolent and kind as he is made out to be, or any higher power for that matter then he'd respect those rights of ours, they work both ways.

Now trust me on this, not everyone believes in a higher power. If someone were to say they'd talked to God then that is their opinion. If somebody were to say they talked to God and killed 20 people because of it then I believe they should be arrested. Simply because the laws of humanity outweigh that of God's when you're down here.

Keep 'em coming if you want.

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SolInvictus

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Posted at: 10/27/09 09:05 AM

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At 10/27/09 12:22 AM, Gobblemeister wrote: ... not an afterlife dumbass

you may want to look into Buddhist beliefs before insulting people.

VESTRUM BARDUSIS MIHI EXTASUM
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morefngdbs

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Posted at: 10/27/09 09:34 AM

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At 10/27/09 04:24 AM, 2good2b4goten wrote:
If God were as benevolent and kind as he is made out to be,

;;;;
"benevolent & kind" , I'm just asking , but where do you get that from ?
I mean this is the one who sentences you to hell & damnation for ALL ETERNITY, for going against the writings of ...the book !
Even if there are many instances of a 180 degree about face, wwhere in one part it say honour thy mother & father...& off elsewhere it says obtaining enterence to be a disciple one must hate their father & mother....

Someone who condemns someone to eternal suffering...IMO , should never be mentioned in the same sentence as kind...or benevolent !

Those who have only the religious opinions & thoughts of others in their head. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either.- More


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JohnnyWang

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Posted at: 10/27/09 05:12 PM

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@2good2be4gotten: So unicorns are out (for whatever reason), what religions do you rank as equally unlikely/equally likely as other faiths/nonfaith?

Are scientology and Hinduism equally likely? Wicca and buddhism? Universal Pantheism and Westboro Baptist Christianity?

Like I said, I'm ana theist, but I don't dismiss the possibility of some higher power, I just think it's unlikely, and that it's unlkely that said power is anything like most of the gods portrayed in religions.

@Gobblemeister: Be quiet when grownups are talking. Also, just because science cannot explain everything to the minute detail (and even if they tried, you lot keep moving the goalposts*), that doesn't mean your version is right.

* "Where's the missing link?" "Right here, we found it in Africa" "Uh... there's still a hole before that, explain that" "The fossil record is incomplete, because it takes specific conditions to bones to preserve" "QED, God did it".

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2good2b4goten

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Posted at: 10/27/09 08:50 PM

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At 10/27/09 09:34 AM, morefngdbs wrote: "benevolent & kind" , I'm just asking , but where do you get that from ?
Someone who condemns someone to eternal suffering...IMO , should never be mentioned in the same sentence as kind...or benevolent !

Just as mentioned by every Christian I've come across.

At 10/27/09 05:12 PM, JohnnyWang wrote: what religions do you rank as equally unlikely/equally likely as other faiths/nonfaith?

Well that doesn't boil down to being Agnostic, that's more personal preference. Even though we understand there's no way to prove either side it doesn't mean we mightn't have preferences.

I believe that there may be a higher power, but he is nothing like he is made out to be. I believe that if there is a higher power that he is not perfect. I don't know whether he intended to create life or if we're just some chain from his creation, whatever that might be.

Are scientology and Hinduism equally likely? Wicca and buddhism? Universal Pantheism and Westboro Baptist Christianity?

No, I rank them differently. But remember this is simply due to personal preference. I rank Scientology out mainly because of it's origins, it's creator being a mad science fiction writer. Remember that the concept of being agnostic isn't about beliefs but instead understanding that there's no way to prove higher powers exist.

Mind you, I rank a lot of religions in the same vein, simply because I have my own theories and legitimacy cannot be proved in any way.

Like I said, I'm ana theist, but I don't dismiss the possibility of some higher power, I just think it's unlikely, and that it's unlkely that said power is anything like most of the gods portrayed in religions.

I'm in the same boat on that one.

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Gobblemeister

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Posted at: 10/27/09 09:23 PM

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At 10/27/09 09:05 AM, SolInvictus wrote:
At 10/27/09 12:22 AM, Gobblemeister wrote: ... not an afterlife dumbass
you may want to look into Buddhist beliefs before insulting people.

THERE IS NO BUDDHIST AFTERLIFE

Assimilation into energy is not an afterlife, its not even an existence, it is just an end, there is a significant theological difference

Reincarnation is not an afterlife it is rebirth of a cycle, you know like water or laundry.

There is no Buddhist afterlife


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Warforger

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Posted at: 10/27/09 10:07 PM

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At 10/27/09 01:37 AM, Gobblemeister wrote:
At 10/27/09 01:20 AM, Warforger wrote:
At 10/27/09 01:08 AM, Gobblemeister wrote:

Now, you sort of missed the point of what I was trying to say, both Unicorns and God have the same amount of evidence to back them up; none, so why would you say Unicorns don't exist when you believe in God? That's like laughing at a Scietnologists beliefs if your Christian.
Then please, enlighten me, what are the origins of what we call science, what created the atoms upon which all matter is formed, give me a plausible explanation that does not at all include God

Good Luck
Its a WIP, but its probably some crazy shit which would blow your mind, but I do not like Science all that much.

You seem to believe that the concept of God is above other imaginary concepts, tell me a plausible explanation about how God is real instead of texts making excuses.
Everyday I see diagrams of our respiratory system, or hear of miracles, people who survive accidents by the faintest of margins. Isee these things and think that something must have had the intelligent design to see it all and create it so that it worked so well in tandem. To see a man just escape a car crash alive by a hair, one cannot truly believe this happens by chance when you hear of it so often.

Can you provide a scientific explanation not a explanation through denial of Evolution. As after all, emotion does not factor into science other then study of animals (including Humans). What most creationists fail to realize, is how fucking long 2 million years is, thus making it hard for them too understand Evolution.


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Warforger

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Posted at: 10/27/09 10:15 PM

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At 10/27/09 04:24 AM, 2good2b4goten wrote:
Because we still need to respect the rights and laws of mankind. If God were as benevolent and kind as he is made out to be, or any higher power for that matter then he'd respect those rights of ours, they work both ways.

Again, thats ignoring the part where I pointed out religion and its texts are manipulated to make itself look better, that's just like the pastor the last time I went to church said God wouldn't kill a town or city just because they displeased him, from what I've read of the Old Testament, he is more like Hitler then Jesus


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poxpower

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Posted at: 10/27/09 10:33 PM

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At 10/27/09 01:37 AM, Gobblemeister wrote:
To see a man just escape a car crash alive by a hair, one cannot truly believe this happens by chance when you hear of it so often.

There are so many things wrong, insane and nonsensical about this statement and this idea in general that I can't possibly imagine you as a thinking person.

First and foremost the fact that THE GUY IS IN A FUCKING CAR CRASH. What is this bullshit? You're amazed that a disaster wasn't WORSE? Wow, the Titanic sank, but some people survived! What a miracle!
Oh wait, no, it was a horrible tragedy. A giant boat sank, dragging hundreds to an icy cold death. That's not a miracle, that's the plot to a Michal Bay movie.

If you're in a car crash, you're already unluckier than everyone else who ISN'T. The fact that you survive it doesn't make you lucky. It's like having to eat a hamburger made of poo but not catching a disease. Are you lucky? No, you just ate a sandwich of shit.

By your logic, you should be amazed by anyone just standing around not constantly getting shot at by aliens and/or mauled by bears.


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Crumption

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Posted at: 10/27/09 11:02 PM

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At 10/27/09 09:23 PM, Gobblemeister wrote:
At 10/27/09 09:05 AM, SolInvictus wrote:
At 10/27/09 12:22 AM, Gobblemeister wrote: ... not an afterlife dumbass
you may want to look into Buddhist beliefs before insulting people.
THERE IS NO BUDDHIST AFTERLIFE

Assimilation into energy is not an afterlife, its not even an existence, it is just an end, there is a significant theological difference

Reincarnation is not an afterlife it is rebirth of a cycle, you know like water or laundry.

There is no Buddhist afterlife

http://www.experiencefestival.com/afterl ife_-_afterlife_as_reincarnation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife#E astern_Religions

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2good2b4goten

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Posted at: 10/28/09 04:14 AM

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At 10/27/09 10:33 PM, poxpower wrote: First and foremost the fact that THE GUY IS IN A FUCKING CAR CRASH. What is this bullshit? You're amazed that a disaster wasn't WORSE? Wow, the Titanic sank, but some people survived! What a miracle!
Oh wait, no, it was a horrible tragedy. A giant boat sank, dragging hundreds to an icy cold death. That's not a miracle, that's the plot to a Michal Bay movie.

more things...

God damnit, I fucking love you.

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Ericho

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Posted at: 10/28/09 12:40 PM

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Atheism by its nature is simply people who do not believe in God. "Non atheism" could in its broadest sense mean people who believe in a God of any kind (not one associated with a religious affiliatioin), so people like Albert Einstein would be one of these. That being said, I am a religious person.

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JohnnyWang

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Posted at: 10/28/09 01:13 PM

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At 10/27/09 01:37 AM, Gobblemeister wrote: To see a man just escape a car crash alive by a hair, one cannot truly believe this happens by chance when you hear of it so often.

Say, arguments sake, that I shot you. Maybe with 22 cal, because the bullets are small. What decides if you live or you die? In the end, my aim, and how you are standing. Maybe the bullet doesn't hit any vital organs, but that has in the endn nothing to do but with the angle in which the gunn is pointed, the bulets trajectory, and the position of your body at the point of imapct.

And that kind of philophy, that you demostrate, is extremely worrying in my view. So, god interferes to save people (random people, as well) from car crashes, but does nothing to stop genosides, natural disasters and epidemics?

And yes, it happens by chance. You have selection bias. You may hear of these survivals often, but how often do you hear about people dying horribly in car accidents? Well, the news prefer to report the survivors because it's more uplifting than talking about peeling some guys corpse from the dashboard. You claim these miracles are caused by god (in stead, of say, imporved car traffic safety and stronger built cars). Where's the proof? Is there any linking factor between those who survive? Do atheists or other heathens die more often in crashes than christians (also, what kind a fucked up god...)?

Note that I have been in two car accidents, neither of them fatal to anyone (one did have our grandma's car flip over a few times). I survived. Was it gods work, or was it just because the speeds in both cases were low, or that Volvo really knows how to build cars? Nope, must have been god.

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Elfer

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Posted at: 10/28/09 01:25 PM

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At 10/27/09 01:37 AM, Gobblemeister wrote: To see a man just escape a car crash alive by a hair, one cannot truly believe this happens by chance when you hear of it so often.

Actually, you pretty much can believe that it happens by chance when you consider that there's like 6.3 million car accidents every year in the US alone. Sure, if you ignore all the ones that are fatal and clear-cut non-fatal, it looks like you have a collection of very unlikely incidents. However, in a large enough sample size, these sorts of things are statistically bound to happen.

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TheStonePilot

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Posted at: 10/28/09 01:30 PM

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The problem I have with religious 'God totally did it guyz' is that they blindly pick and choose. Sure, when someone kills 6 million jews it's not Gods fault, but when a premmy baby survives it's a 'miracle'. It's that pure religious ignorance that drove me away from the Church in the first place.

That, and the blatant indoctrination they put the kids through.

I do believe that if kids were free to choose their own religion, once all the facts are present, then there would be no more religion. That, or it'd be a dying thing.


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Schmalucard

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Posted at: 10/28/09 03:39 PM

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Ehhhh.

Sorry, I'm sorta new here, but can I just express my view on religion?

'Cause, well this ain't really replying to any of your posts.

Mmkay. Well, being a born and bred Hindu (don't flame! :L), I'm sorta religious. Infact, I'm very religious, but my parents don't restrict me from questioning the religion, or indeed the idea of religion itself. My idea of God is that he is in fact a sort of divine and ethereal force :P
There's simply no way that he could actually be a person IMO.
g> IMO.

So yeah.

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SolInvictus

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At 10/27/09 09:23 PM, Gobblemeister wrote: Assimilation into energy is not an afterlife, its not even an existence, it is just an end, there is a significant theological difference

if the sole is not eternal or conscious according to Buddhist beliefs, explain how Buddhas (anyone who has reached enlightenment) may willing be reincarnated (remember, they've already reached the end of the road, they should be "assimilated" at this point) if they weren't aware and conscious (i.e. an afterlife)?

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RubberTrucky

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Posted at: 10/28/09 06:59 PM

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At 10/27/09 05:12 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:
@Gobblemeister: Be quiet when grownups are talking. Also, just because science cannot explain everything to the minute detail (and even if they tried, you lot keep moving the goalposts*), that doesn't mean your version is right.

For certain not, but we still need to be reminded that we are still in a box o which we can't make full predictions of what's out there. What is out there might even contradict the very core we have scientifically postulated.

And who knows, maybe divine magic has ever happened.

Amani tum sifu Bwana Yesu.

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Warforger

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Posted at: 10/28/09 07:37 PM

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At 10/28/09 01:30 PM, TheStonePilot wrote: The problem I have with religious 'God totally did it guyz' is that they blindly pick and choose. Sure, when someone kills 6 million jews it's not Gods fault, but when a premmy baby survives it's a 'miracle'. It's that pure religious ignorance that drove me away from the Church in the first place.

That, and the blatant indoctrination they put the kids through.

I do believe that if kids were free to choose their own religion, once all the facts are present, then there would be no more religion. That, or it'd be a dying thing.

I hate how people think only the Jews died in the Holocaust, when there were 5 Million more people who weren't Jews who went through the same.

Again, the idea of a greater power is man's idea, just like unicorns and Loch Ness Monster


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RubberTrucky

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At 10/28/09 07:37 PM, Warforger wrote:
Again, the idea of a greater power is man's idea, just like unicorns and Loch Ness Monster

And QED.

Amani tum sifu Bwana Yesu.

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Kwing

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Posted at: 10/30/09 11:44 PM

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Pasted from my locked thread:

I know a lot of people on here are atheist, but I'd like to strike an interesting point about religion. When you think about it, humanity has never been very original. We've worshiped food, water, fire, animals, our sun, and all sorts of openly existent things whom we owe our life to, so why would we worship a divine force or power if it was only a hypothesis?

Then again, if there's over a billion people all with slightly different views of this divine power, how can only one be right? Obviously, if there is a divine force out there, it's nothing like the conventional stuff we worship.

What I find most likely is that there are two states of existence; consciousness and matter. Matter is bound to principles created by the consciousness, meaning that a conscious creature with little intelligence or ability to perceive scientific principles will only accept physics as they are, which enforces the laws that bind matter together.

This would mean that if we were all to stop believing in gravity and inertia, it wouldn't happen immediately; we would have to sustain this belief for a percentage of time that we have cumulatively believed in the history of mankind and possibly life on Earth, which is impossible because our minds are bound to the logistics of our current environment.


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Bacchanalian

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Posted at: 10/31/09 01:02 AM

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At 10/30/09 11:44 PM, Kwing wrote: I know a lot of people on here are atheist, but I'd like to strike an interesting point about religion. When you think about it, humanity has never been very original. We've worshiped food, water, fire, animals, our sun, and all sorts of openly existent things whom we owe our life to, so why would we worship a divine force or power if it was only a hypothesis?

Worshiping a divine force isn't all that original. It's just an application of sentience, something very near and dear to us. It's not that difficult to get from water to a personification-of-water.

What I find most likely is that there are two states of existence; consciousness and matter. [...]

I'm confused. Your theory doesn't exactly strike me as a response or alternative to the multiplicity of theism. It seems like one could believe in one god and still hold to your theory... unless I'm misunderstanding something?


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satanbrain

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Posted at: 10/31/09 02:08 AM

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there is no morale, right or wrong. its all chemicals that make us feel better or worse.

>:) ... brain !

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Bacchanalian

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Posted at: 10/31/09 02:15 AM

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At 10/31/09 02:08 AM, satanbrain wrote: there is no morale, right or wrong. its all chemicals that make us feel better or worse.

What a delightfully misaligned dichotomy. Law and judge are not mutually exclusive.


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RubberTrucky

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At 10/31/09 02:08 AM, satanbrain wrote: there is no morale, right or wrong. its all chemicals that make us feel better or worse.

It's what I find most confusing about the concepts of reality.

Physics should force us to act upon external influences only, whereas we experience some deliberate randomness.

There is a priory no external agent that forces me to type flabberghost or nadermouthsphere. This doesn't work with our theory that we are a bunch of particles in interaction with the environment.

I can't conclude though that a wizard did it all then. But I can conclude that we are not able to hinge a soulless explanation to everything.

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Bacchanalian

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Posted at: 10/31/09 01:28 PM

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At 10/31/09 12:34 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: This doesn't work with our theory that we are a bunch of particles in interaction with the environment.

One is perfectly compatible with the other as long as people can't know or be aware of every single thing at any given moment. And guess what. People can't know or be aware of every single thing at any given moment.


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aides

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Posted at: 10/31/09 01:31 PM

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im an atheist.

i think we should bully christians until they convert to our ways because religion is really reactionary and if the whole world was atheist thered be no more war

All wars are fought over Religion. Fact.


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RubberTrucky

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At 10/31/09 01:28 PM, Bacchanalian wrote:
At 10/31/09 12:34 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: This doesn't work with our theory that we are a bunch of particles in interaction with the environment.
One is perfectly compatible with the other as long as people can't know or be aware of every single thing at any given moment. And guess what. People can't know or be aware of every single thing at any given moment.

If my choosing bulwarkmannshaft is a result of initial conditions and a bunch of differential equations I would be very surprised, even if I were to take incertainty into the equation.

Amani tum sifu Bwana Yesu.

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