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lol look what happens when you google dead fetus.

The one in the jar looks SO COOL! I want one.

At 1/15/08 06:47 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: Sorry, but what even makes an unwanted life form worth saving?

Using your logic, if you yourself is unwanted, we should have the right to kill you as you're "getting in the way" of the rest of our lives. You might as well go and use that same sentence to justify the Holocaust.

"Jew, gypsies, gays, other races? All just inferior lifeforms that are taking up our space, wasting our time and cause all our problems. Lets get rid of them since we are self-proclaiming ourselves to be superior to all others for no justifiable reason other then our own social stigmas and ignorance!"

At 1/15/08 08:14 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/15/08 06:47 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: Sorry, but what even makes an unwanted life form worth saving?

Using your logic, if you yourself is unwanted, we should have the right to kill you as you're "getting in the way" of the rest of our lives. You might as well go and use that same sentence to justify the Holocaust.

"Jew, gypsies, gays, other races? All just inferior lifeforms that are taking up our space, wasting our time and cause all our problems. Lets get rid of them since we are self-proclaiming ourselves to be superior to all others for no justifiable reason other then our own social stigmas and ignorance!"

Cute, but giving a woman the right to terminate her pregnancy isn't endorsing the murder of people who society considers undesirable.

Although I respect the way you shut down that moron :3

At 1/15/08 08:31 PM, Kazuhiro wrote: Cute, but giving a woman the right to terminate her pregnancy isn't endorsing the murder of people who society considers undesirable.

I never said it was. I was just pointing out that his phrase, like many others before it, can be used to justify any killing. Brother, sister, parents, cousins, teachers, classmates, neighbors, a random joe?
"Yea I killed them, but they were unwanted lifeforms so its okay."

Also, most abortions (as I showed in my one of my earlier posts) are caused by social reasons. The baby is unwanted or inconvenient, "What will my family/friends/neighbors/that guy think?", etc.

Although I respect the way you shut down that moron :3

Thanks.

Where does this stop though? Is my sperm now half a person, thus entitled to partial rights (what those would be, I don't know).

I'll make a claim for abortion that has nothing to do with the fetus at all.

Population control.

There are about 46 million abortions each year. Lets divide that by eight to account for people that have multiple abortions in a year (why 8, I don't know). We are now at 5,750,000. If all of those were born each year, every year we would run out of room on this planet so quick, it would be insane.

"But why don't they just not get pregnant" you say? The only way to 100% guarantee a women doesn't get pregnant is to not have sex. Condom failure is 12%, the lowest failure rates are about 1%. If all of the people that had an abortion used those 1% methods that is still 575,000 more people on Earth each year. That number would only grow as those extra people got to the age of giving birth.

At 1/15/08 08:14 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/15/08 06:47 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: Sorry, but what even makes an unwanted life form worth saving?

Using your logic, if you yourself is unwanted, we should have the right to kill you as you're "getting in the way" of the rest of our lives. You might as well go and use that same sentence to justify the Holocaust.

"Jew, gypsies, gays, other races? All just inferior lifeforms that are taking up our space, wasting our time and cause all our problems. Lets get rid of them since we are self-proclaiming ourselves to be superior to all others for no justifiable reason other then our own social stigmas and ignorance!"

Um... Yeh?

I mean, You can TRY to kill something if you need to, but if they fight back; well... You made a dumb descision; But neither is more evil than the other; it's evolution.

Infanticide has been praticed since before even agriculture came about; as a result of population control.

Slavery and genocide are all the result of a natural human desire to want to establish a genetic prominence, if not dominance, in the world.

im pro abortion myself because why bring a child into this world if you dont think you can giv it a good life

The bottom line is, some people need abortions, be it rape victims, or pregnancies that risk the mother's life and so on, but trying to create a system to make abortions available to only these situations is completely infeasible, and as such, they need to be made available to everyone.

At 1/15/08 09:44 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: The bottom line is, some people need abortions, be it rape victims, or pregnancies that risk the mother's life and so on, but trying to create a system to make abortions available to only these situations is completely infeasible, and as such, they need to be made available to everyone.

Oh don't sugar coat it, you know that there's no reason to spare a fetus in the first place.

At 1/15/08 09:20 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:

At 1/15/08 08:14 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/15/08 06:47 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: Sorry, but what even makes an unwanted life form worth saving?

Using your logic, if you yourself is unwanted, we should have the right to kill you as you're "getting in the way" of the rest of our lives. You might as well go and use that same sentence to justify the Holocaust.

"Jew, gypsies, gays, other races? All just inferior lifeforms that are taking up our space, wasting our time and cause all our problems. Lets get rid of them since we are self-proclaiming ourselves to be superior to all others for no justifiable reason other then our own social stigmas and ignorance!"

Um... Yeh?

Okay. Just keep that in mind.

I mean, You can TRY to kill something if you need to, but if they fight back; well... You made a dumb descision; But neither is more evil than the other; it's evolution.

The thing is, in most cases, you don't need to kill the fetus, you want to. Evolution is survival of the fittest; where the strong live and the weak die. Killing babies before your even able to tell if its strong or weak isn't evolution, nor is it natural selection.

Infanticide has been praticed since before even agriculture came about; as a result of population control.

And for ritualistic, social and personal purposes. Doesn't make it the best option. A better option to solve the population problem is to stop having sex or only have sex during the time woman aren't fertile.

Child molestation has been around for quite along time too. Does that make it justifiable?

Slavery and genocide are all the result of a natural human desire to want to establish a genetic prominence, if not dominance, in the world.

And political and social. Are you saying that if they are truly a result from natural human desires we should allow such acts?

I'm a pro-life person. Its more about situational than anything.

If you had a girlfriend, or you had a boyfriend, and your girlfriend got pregnant, or your boyfriend got you pregnant, and they told you, you told him that you wanted an abortion, would you allow him to have a decision in it? Or not? For the guys, If she says she wants an abortion. If she says she wants to end a life that you have helped create, how would you feel? Its just a rhetorical question that one should ask themselves. Its a real mind-frag.

At 1/15/08 09:44 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: The bottom line is, some people need abortions, be it rape victims, or pregnancies that risk the mother's life and so on, but trying to create a system to make abortions available to only these situations is completely infeasible, and as such, they need to be made available to everyone.

Oh, its quite feasible. Rape victims should report to the police that they were raped and at the same time report their assailant(s) if they can. And if they get pregnant from the assailant/one of the assailants, then they'll be a candidate for an abortion if still within the legal time limit.

Yea, I know that most rapes go unreported, but if they're unreported, then there is no more proof that they got the kid from consensual sex. The wise thing to do is to go and report it asap. It would get the rapist behind bars and its said that the victims may feel a little better from it.

If the pregnancy risks the mother's life, the mother may choose to have an abortion or not as they may (in the case that the mother may die in the process of birth) feel that they would rather have the baby live at the expense of theirs as in this case they are risking their own body and life for another.

At 1/15/08 09:49 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote:
Oh don't sugar coat it, you know that there's no reason to spare a fetus in the first place.

Umm... How about continuing our races existence for one.

At 1/13/08 08:25 PM, JOEBIALEK wrote: On this 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would like to share my views on the issue of abortion.

Life begins at the point of conception.

wrong, at hte point of conception cells start to devide. it is not yet human.

until a fetus develops independent heart and brain function, it is basicly a tumor, just a peice of tissue growing inside someones body.

and what if someone gets raped, should they be forced to have a baby? it wasn't their choice tpo get raped

At 1/15/08 10:09 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

Umm... How about continuing our races existence for one.

well, if the baby where to have a horible life if it was born, it would be more mercyfull to abort it

I mean, You can TRY to kill something if you need to, but if they fight back; well... You made a dumb descision; But neither is more evil than the other; it's evolution.

The thing is, in most cases, you don't need to kill the fetus, you want to. Evolution is survival of the fittest; where the strong live and the weak die. Killing babies before your even able to tell if its strong or weak isn't evolution, nor is it natural selection.

Let it be known that Royale was probably half joking, or possibly an idiot.

EZgamer, what's your opinion on women who are raped, or for whom childbirth would be dangerous? Or, to put a different spin on it, do you value the fetus' rights more than the mother's?

I've actually thought of a plan on adoption and abortion but I'm not going to write it out.
This topic is already in a thread.
Anyway I don't believe everyone should be able to get abortions just certain people.
And for the people who say there pro-choice how pro-choice are you?
And for the pro-life people how pro-life are you when you start a thread like this you should set a standard like for saving a life rape and incest being okay for a pro-life to support abortion and still be called pro-life.
It depends on how you word the question because if you word it one way someone who you would usually consider pro-choice could be put down as pro-life. i.e. "Do you support killing babies?"
Ugh I'm done with ranting

At 1/15/08 10:40 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

At 1/15/08 10:09 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

Umm... How about continuing our races existence for one.

well, if the baby where to have a horible life if it was born, it would be more mercyfull to abort it

If you want to do that, we might as well herd everyone that is living in poverty and drop a nuke on them to be merciful.

The baby should still have a right to live so then it can choose for itself if its living a horrible life. Also, its not like its impossible to get out of poverty and such.

Here's one middle ground proposal for you: When the baby becomes old enough to logically choose for itself if its living a horrible life, it can report to the government that they are and they can give a mercy killing for them if they so choose. We'll give this choice to people born into "horrible places".

At 1/15/08 11:00 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

.

Here's one middle ground proposal for you: When the baby becomes old enough to logically choose for itself if its living a horrible life, it can report to the government that they are and they can give a mercy killing for them if they so choose. We'll give this choice to people born into "horrible places".

okay, what if the baby's parents where abusive alchaholics, the baby was to be born in extremely impoverished war torn country, and had verry little chance of living past childhood. Would you want to live in those conditions?

At 1/15/08 11:09 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:00 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

.

Here's one middle ground proposal for you: When the baby becomes old enough to logically choose for itself if its living a horrible life, it can report to the government that they are and they can give a mercy killing for them if they so choose. We'll give this choice to people born into "horrible places".

okay, what if the baby's parents where abusive alchaholics, the baby was to be born in extremely impoverished war torn country, and had verry little chance of living past childhood. Would you want to live in those conditions?

Probably not. I really doubt anyone does, but thats just a generalization as there's some weird people out there that may want to live in those conditions...

Another proposal: We kill all the kids in that country (since they won't live past childhood, you might as well cut out the middleman (time) and end their misery now, eh?) and sterilize all the adults so they won't make anymore kids that will suffer and probably not live past childhood.

OR

Us in the developed world can try to do something about the shit going on in said country (for the good coughcough) so that said child would be able to live and grow up in much better conditions.

At 1/15/08 10:52 PM, Kazuhiro wrote:

I mean, You can TRY to kill something if you need to, but if they fight back; well... You made a dumb descision; But neither is more evil than the other; it's evolution.

The thing is, in most cases, you don't need to kill the fetus, you want to. Evolution is survival of the fittest; where the strong live and the weak die. Killing babies before your even able to tell if its strong or weak isn't evolution, nor is it natural selection.

Let it be known that Royale was probably half joking, or possibly an idiot.

EZgamer, what's your opinion on women who are raped, or for whom childbirth would be dangerous? Or, to put a different spin on it, do you value the fetus' rights more than the mother's?

In rape cases, if the victims report their rape to the police and she get pregnant, she may have an abortion if its in the first trimester. Personally, I feel that the fetus should not have to pay for the sins/actions of their parents (rapists in this case). If anyone should get killed, it should be the rapist.

In the case of dangerous childbirth, I believe that, as I stated in an earlier post, the mother may choose to have an abortion or not as they may feel that they would rather have the baby live at the expense of theirs as they are risking their own body and life for another.

I believe that everyone should have the same rights and liberties as everyone else (besides those who gave up there own because they infringed the rights of another's (ex: criminals, rapists, murderers, etc.)), fetuses included.

At 1/15/08 11:38 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:09 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

okay, I understand your views on abortion and even though they differ from mine, i respect them. if

someone is stupid enough not to youse birth control, the pregnancy is their fault and therefore should not be terminated. but lets say someone got raped, should they be forced to have the baby?

Us in the developed world can try to do something about the shit going on in said country (for the good coughcough) so that said child would be able to live and grow up in much better conditions.

very very good idea

At 1/16/08 12:00 AM, Antimatter500 wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:38 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:09 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

okay, I understand your views on abortion and even though they differ from mine, i respect them.

Thank you. I respect yours as well.

if someone is stupid enough not to youse birth control, the pregnancy is their fault and therefore should not be terminated.

I agree.

but lets say someone got raped, should they be forced to have the baby?

No they shouldn't be forced, even though I personally find that the baby shouldn't have to pay for the rapist's crime and if one of the 2 of them had to be "terminated", it should be the rapist instead of the baby as the baby did nothing wrong.

Us in the developed world can try to do something about the shit going on in said country (for the good coughcough) so that said child would be able to live and grow up in much better conditions.

very very good idea

Too bad no one seems to be picking up on this...

At 1/16/08 10:09 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/16/08 12:00 AM, Antimatter500 wrote:

very very good idea

Too bad no one seems to be picking up on this...

indeed

At 1/16/08 10:09 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/16/08 12:00 AM, Antimatter500 wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:38 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:09 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

No they shouldn't be forced, even though I personally find that the baby shouldn't have to pay for the rapist's crime and if one of the 2 of them had to be "terminated", it should be the rapist instead of the baby as the baby did nothing wrong.

yes but that dosent solve anything. the woman is still pregnant, why should she have a baby she dosent want?
\

At 1/16/08 10:36 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

At 1/16/08 10:09 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/16/08 12:00 AM, Antimatter500 wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:38 PM, Ezgamer wrote:

At 1/15/08 11:09 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

No they shouldn't be forced, even though I personally find that the baby shouldn't have to pay for the rapist's crime and if one of the 2 of them had to be "terminated", it should be the rapist instead of the baby as the baby did nothing wrong.

yes but that dosent solve anything. the woman is still pregnant, why should she have a baby she dosent want?
\

I'm not saying she has to keep it, I'm just saying making the baby pay for the actions of the rapist to me seems unethical. In one of my earlier posts, I proposed a system for rape victims if they want to abort the kid:

Rape victims should report to the police that they were raped and at the same time report their assailant(s) if they can. And if they get pregnant from the assailant/one of the assailants, then they'll be a candidate for an abortion if still within the legal time limit.

Yea, I know that most rapes go unreported, but if they're unreported, then there is no more proof that they got the kid from consensual sex. The wise thing to do is to go and report it asap. It would get the rapist behind bars and its said that the victims may feel a little better from it.

And to add to the last paragraph, It would also be wise to report the rape to the police asap because if you wait too long, it could be to late to have an abortion it they wanted one.

At 1/15/08 08:31 PM, Kazuhiro wrote: Cute, but giving a woman the right to terminate her pregnancy isn't endorsing the murder of people who society considers undesirable.

Of course it is. Abortion is the removal of an inconvenient human.

There is no way to justify abortion and deny eugenics.

At 1/17/08 03:40 AM, WolvenBear wrote:

At 1/15/08 08:31 PM, Kazuhiro wrote: Cute, but giving a woman the right to terminate her pregnancy isn't endorsing the murder of people who society considers undesirable.

Of course it is. Abortion is the removal of an inconvenient human.

There is no way to justify abortion and deny eugenics.

You do realize that it's possible to have an abortion for other reasons?

It could be something as simple as the mother's life being in danger.

At 1/17/08 04:46 AM, Drakim wrote: You do realize that it's possible to have an abortion for other reasons?

It could be something as simple as the mother's life being in danger.

Abortion got the life of the mother happens in less than .1% of all abortions. And most of those abortions can be avoided by other procedures such as C Section.

Abortion isn't neccessary. And by bringing up the "health of the mother issue", you're trying to muddy the waters.

At 1/17/08 05:07 AM, WolvenBear wrote:

At 1/17/08 04:46 AM, Drakim wrote: You do realize that it's possible to have an abortion for other reasons?

It could be something as simple as the mother's life being in danger.

Abortion got the life of the mother happens in less than .1% of all abortions. And most of those abortions can be avoided by other procedures such as C Section.

Abortion isn't neccessary. And by bringing up the "health of the mother issue", you're trying to muddy the waters.

Don't even try it. You know very well what I was saying. Here, let me point it out to you anyway:

WolvenBear: There is no way to justify abortion and deny eugenics.

You are claiming that there is NO WAY to justify abortion and deny eugenics. I just pointed out a way, if the mother's life is in danger. Eugenics has nothing to do with it then, at all.

At 1/15/08 11:43 AM, Musician wrote:

Guess what? abortions are already illegal in the third trimester. And as for the possible :consciousness at 10 weeks? even your own link suggests that a fetus feeling pain in that period is :unlikely.

Third Trimester is 28+ weeks. (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fetal-
development/PR00114)

Many of the underlying neural networks associated with consciousness begin to develop at 10 weeks.

Also, on the topic of fetal pain:

1. Pain requires consciousness
2. Therefore pain -> consciousness
3. !conscious -> !pain

However, that doesn't imply that !pain -> !conscious

Let's use another example. Let's say I go to the library every sunday:

Sunday -> library
!library -> !sunday

This second extrapolation makes sense, since I must go to the library if its sunday, and if I'm not at the library, it can't be sunday

!sunday -> !library however is untrue, since I can go to the library on monday, tuesday, wensday, etc.

Likewise, a person can be conscious without feeling pain, but consciousness is required for pain.

while it is unlikely the fetus can feel anything before 13 weeks, "after 26 weeks it is quite probable.

I know.

Funny seeing as you've been pushing for 10 weeks. So yeah I guess you're right, anything is :debatable if you're ignorant enough.

Read the link from the journal of obstetrics and gynecology.

Most pro-choice advocates realize that there is a limit on abortion (AKA the third trimester). Whether :or not there is fetal pain before 24 to 26 weeks is disputable, however there is certainly no real :scientific proof to suggest that a fetus can feel pain before 24 to 26 weeks.

Yes, but there is still good evidence for consciousness. Also, many pro-choice groups don't believe in any restrictions - our restrictions have rather come about through Pro-Life activism.

Which means that MORE THAN HALF (approx 68%) are before the ten week period you originally :suggested. Another 10 percent before the 13 weeks that you're currently suggesting. Another 6 :percent before the nervous system starts to become active. And finally, the rest all before the time :period where there is any significant evidence that the fetus can feel pain.

Nervous system becomes active? Is that a joke? 10 weeks is the best figure given the known evidence, it is when the advanced nervous system begins to develop. And fetal pain shows consciousness, but it is not necessary for consciousness.

So basically all those abortions are "ethical" by your standards.

Those before 10 weeks, yes.

There are cases where the child can live if the mother dies and vice versa. You're dodging the point. :Should the mother be allowed to live or the child? You have to believe that one is more important :than the other in a situation like that.

What situation is that? Can you cite an example?

What's so important about a beating heart, that's more symbolic than it is significant.

The emphasis is on functioning brain, however the presence of a beating heart is significant since it shows a high degree of specialization and advanced function, which can already be seen in the brain.

It could make interpreting deadlines much simpler.