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At 9/7/03 05:13 PM, UniversalConstant wrote: Don't ya think it a little hipacritical that country which was founded under the belief that all men are created equal destroyed a whole race of people to do it ??

According to the thought of the day, they weren't "men". They were savages. And women. And witches. And slaves.

Yeah.

"Men" is an archaic word meaning "WASP males".

Jeers,
ShubNiggurath

Yeah, the indians arent extinct, but their good as fucked

America is all for equality, as long as you agree with them...the moment you dont, then your a heathan and a terrorist

Freedom of speech is dead, you cant even voice your own opinions without being torn down

But back to the topic, why does everyone hate America, well, because your country is the biggest pile of fuck around at the moment, sure other countries have done just as bad things, but they are trying to make up for their mistakes...America is just steaming on ahead

There

Couldn't agree more.

And by the way I agree I am not glad that 9/11 happened although the towers needed to fall. I wish it was done in a different manner. happy?

1- having an incompetent persident that didnt even win the elections
2- start wars for oil using reasons unprooved (such as weapons of mass destrucion - may i remind you WHO has more weapons of mass destruction? hint- its not iraq...) and then, realising they messed up, blame it on the UN
3- use power to threat countrys and explore third world nation's natural resources for payment of a help "given by good will
4- (this is personal) allow the destruction and pillage of one of the world's most important museums (in bagdad). some of the pieces stolen are lost forever - world history!
5- impose christianism above all other religions- we hear the president saying "god bless america", maybe forgetting that the president must not follow any religion what so ever
6- force minor countrys to accept theyr way of life - the "american way of life" - not showing any respect for each people's differences
7- murdering innocents in a war that they cannot fight alone (compare the number of victims of the american slaughter in the middle-east with the number of victims in the 9/11 - with all due respect for the victims and their familys)
8- trying to teach europeans how to have a healthy alimentation, when more then a half of the american people are overwheighted
9- showing their democracy as the best democracy in the world, acusing anyone that disagrees of being radical, and "communist"- im anarkist, and may i tell you that communist, not stalinism, is one of the most perfect political systems in the world
10- america doesnt have any history (at least not like europe, no culture (at least not like europe), no quality of life (at least not like europe), no education (at least not like europe), and still they show their guns, forcing coward weak countrys to admit their supposed superiority
etc, etc, etc

why does anyone hate america?

PS: by the way, in europe we ARE pacifists. may i remind you that countrys like switzerland dont even HAVE an army....

PPS: sorry for my english

At 9/8/03 02:55 PM, ceelar wrote: PS: by the way, in europe we ARE pacifists. may i remind you that countrys like switzerland dont even HAVE an army....

We're not ALL pacifists. A good proportion of the UK supported the war, but more pacifist than America I think.

PPS: sorry for my english

Fair enough. Where are you from?

Something just hit me, does a 250 years civilization really think that they can show the "right" way to do things to one that is 5,000 years old?

Makes you think, dosen't it?

Welcome to this world, imputed identity. Born, tagged, tattooed, pacified. Generously bestowed my rights and priveleges replete. Arbitrary values been ascribed. There's nothing I can tell you, there's nothing I can say. Stunted conversation, censored thought. Completely free, at liberty, guaranteed unless of course you decide I'm not.
-Propagandhi

The land of the free, but who controls your freedom? Think about it.

You guys, stop arguing. Let's just face the facts: if our president really cared about civilians and the victims of 9/11, he would have used the money he wasted I MEAN used in the "war on Iraq" to help them. Deficit my ass. I think our tax dollars should go to something else other than his ego and his lack of penis.

America actually had a surplus when Bush got into office... BUT HE'S SO PATRIOTIC!!!

Damn all you idiots. You think that there is no freedom of speech, yet you are all so open about hating the government. You are using the first amendment!

Popnfresh-when a government kills and rapes its citizens,
I don't give a rat's ass how old their culture is. We aren't out to destroy their culture. We mean to eliminate those who try to destroy our lives. The same goes for Al-Quaida in Afghanistan.

And for all of you who quote punk-rockers in their "infinite wisdom" are misguided. There's a reason why loud harsh music has such an appeal to angry teenagers, and not to most adults who have grown up.

Ceelar-- Listen to what you are saying, and then try to rationalize it. You can't, so don't just rant out all your anti-government, democratic bs. If you actually looked at the world, you'd find that the most powerful countries like the US, Britain, Russia, and others are democratic republics. You'll find all the anarchists in Africa, starving to death, fighting over grain, while we pleasantly eat a steak. Which system of government seems to be more successful?

Why do so many of you insist on posting the same anti-bush crap over and over again. You use half-truths, and every other day there's another loser with 1 post who just bitches about Bush. At least conceptualize your arguments.

At 9/8/03 11:04 PM, adrshepard wrote: Damn all you idiots. You think that there is no freedom of speech, yet you are all so open about hating the government. You are using the first amendment!

I have been hereby damned.

Sonny, you don't have free speech. Your speech is limited by the freedoms of others to live their lives peacefully. You do not have the right to walk into an elementary school and say "I'm gonna fucking blow this goddamn shithole up by sticking a timebomb right underneath that there drinking fountain!" Now, that doesn't mean you're gonna go out and do it, but I'll be damned (hehe, I already have been, thanks!) if children who are seven and eight years old have to go to school and learn nothing except that the very place they're in has been marked for unlawful demolition and there isn't fuck all they can do about it.

I don't have the right to give you a black feather and tell you you'll be a dead man tomorrow. I shouldn't have that right, and I don't.

We do not have free speech simply because we have the right to dissent. Serious dissidents are suppressed. Can we say Kent State? That isn't the only instance of this, but that's what popped in my head first. Clicking the link's gonna bring up a quick Google search on the subject, in case you're interested in learning about it.

And for all of you who quote punk-rockers in their "infinite wisdom" are misguided. There's a reason why loud harsh music has such an appeal to angry teenagers, and not to most adults who have grown up.

Give Ani DiFranco a listen, or perhaps some serious electronica. Minor Threat screaming at a wall isn't all there is to "punk".

Which system of government seems to be more successful?

Anarchy counts as a government? :)

At least conceptualize your arguments.

I do agree with you there. Thank you.

Cheers,
ShubNiggurath

You'll find all the anarchists in Africa, starving to death, fighting over grain, while we pleasantly eat a steak.

my point exactly.

If you actually looked at the world, you'd find that the most powerful countries like the US, Britain, Russia, and others are democratic republics.

russia is powerful, but at what cost?
the britain government (spetially Tony Blair) licks USA's ass. so does portugal, my country, and others.
i am not against democracy. i am against a government that fights terrorism blowing up entire countrys, murdering innocents, bringing caos and hatred, and then stands up in front of those that try to solve their problems without involving "collateral damage" and trys to teach them their way of solving things, showing it as the most humain.

Which system of government seems to be more successful?

i never said that the american system didnt succeed. i just dont like power abusers.

PS- i dont mean to disrespect british, american or other people. i fight the government, not the people.

PPS- sorry for my english (although i understand english, im not much of a writer)

At 9/9/03 01:55 PM, ceelar wrote: i am against a government that fights terrorism blowing up entire countrys, murdering innocents, bringing caos and hatred, and then stands up in front of those that try to solve their problems without involving "collateral damage" and trys to teach them their way of solving things, showing it as the most humain.

i dont think that the US trys to blow up civilians, its just that their troops are triggr happy gung ho buckaroos. america practically invented friendly fire.

also, the 'smart' bombs seem to hit more red cross mine clearing centres than terrorist bases

"war is far too a serious matter to be entrusted to the military"

At 9/9/03 02:01 PM, Jafit-Man wrote:

At 9/9/03 01:55 PM, ceelar wrote: i am against a government that fights terrorism blowing up entire countrys, murdering innocents, bringing caos and hatred, and then stands up in front of those that try to solve their problems without involving "collateral damage" and trys to teach them their way of solving things, showing it as the most humain.

i dont think that the US trys to blow up civilians, its just that their troops are triggr happy gung ho buckaroos. america practically invented friendly fire.

also, the 'smart' bombs seem to hit more red cross mine clearing centres than terrorist bases

"war is far too a serious matter to be entrusted to the military"

What is your basis for all these remarks? If smart bombs were ineffective we wouldn't use them, because I'm not sure but I would think that they would be more expensive than conventional bombs.

I also wouldn't say that they invented friendly fire. It has been always been a problem in every war throughout human history. I'm sure in ancient and medieval battles, people became disoriented and accidentally attacked friendlies.
Besides, civilian casualties aren't the same as friendly-fire. There are very non-combat deaths in Iraq that are a result on accidental shooting; they are usually equipment failures and collisions.

At 9/8/03 11:04 PM, adrshepard wrote: Damn all you idiots. You think that there is no freedom of speech, yet you are all so open about hating the government. You are using the first amendment!

Remember what happened to Michael Moore and the Dixie Chicks? They were silenced. Freedom of speech is granted in certain places at a certain time.

We mean to eliminate those who try to destroy our lives.

Iraq never attacked America or posed a threat to America.

The same goes for Al-Quaida in Afghanistan.

But America fuinded that organizations and even trained them and sent them money. O_o

And for all of you who quote punk-rockers in their "infinite wisdom" are misguided. There's a reason why loud harsh music has such an appeal to angry teenagers, and not to most adults who have grown up.

Excuse me, death metal is loud harsh music. Punk is punk. Perhaps you could answer me this then. WHY IS IT ADULTS WHO ARE IN THE MOST PROMINENT PUNK BANDS? Also you know nothing of Jello Biafra or Propagandhi and their work so your claims hold no ground.

Ceelar-- Listen to what you are saying, and then try to rationalize it. You can't, so don't just rant out all your anti-government, democratic bs. If you actually looked at the world, you'd find that the most powerful countries like the US, Britain, Russia, and others are democratic republics. You'll find all the anarchists in Africa, starving to death, fighting over grain, while we pleasantly eat a steak. Which system of government seems to be more successful?

Uhm, africa is in such a shitty condition because capitalism was thrown upon them by colonial forces. There wasn't any famine when they were hunting and gathering societies.

Why do so many of you insist on posting the same anti-bush crap over and over again. You use half-truths, and every other day there's another loser with 1 post who just bitches about Bush. At least conceptualize your arguments.

I dare you to find some examples of these half-truths.

First off, Europe isn't being "peaceful" or "cowardly", they just don't want a part in this war because they don't have anything to do with it. Simple as that.

Second, the reason we "interfere" in other conflicts is because everybody (such as a certain Canadian that replied) seems to think America is the "Big guy that could stop the fight". We tried to live up to it. And what did everybody else do? Said we "murdered" everything. Really now? How......."educated" of you.

Third, don't even start about Saddam. He's a cowardly mass murderer.

Now that I've countered your "points", to my points.

People hate America because.....

1. Think about Europe. All the time that they've sat and warred over this and that, trying to establish something useful, and they happened to try to get more land by colonization. And then what happened? The colonies revolted, became a much larger country than the ones from Europe, and became the "superpower" of the world in about two and a half hundred years.
2. We always seem to have it good. All the industry, all the money, and they got nothing.
3. We, unlike everybody else, decided that our citizens SHOULD matter. That pissed off the other countries...we suddenly had all these patriots.
4. We have such a powerful military. Over a million dollars spent on training a single Marine, the world's best snipers.
5. We "interfere". Interfere my ass. We tried to do what was right. We weren't even involved until WW2 when Japan came over and attacked Hawaii. Then we nuked 'em. Suddenly the world seems to think we're "barbarians" or something.
6. We're easy to hate. Look at us. Nice, big country with high population, all of those patriots, big guns, money. A target.
7. Naturally, we had so much success. We invented the automobile. (Btw...we aren't backwards for driving on the right side of the road. The rest of the world is backwards for driving on the left---we made the machine, guys) Cars are important little fkers.

Now I close. What I said about Europe...I don't hate Europe. Except those fuckers with little Bush Swastikas. Oh, REAL mature. Compare Bush to Hitler...the leader of the country that fucking destroyed the Nazis. Anyway...Britain's usually pretty cool. I hate France, so does everybody else though. Irish and Scottish have awesome accents. Cool. Whatever.

At 9/9/03 08:53 PM, SteelSeraphim wrote: First off, Europe isn't being "peaceful" or "cowardly", they just don't want a part in this war because they don't have anything to do with it. Simple as that.

England isn't a part of Europe?

Second, the reason we "interfere" in other conflicts is because everybody (such as a certain Canadian that replied) seems to think America is the "Big guy that could stop the fight". We tried to live up to it. And what did everybody else do? Said we "murdered" everything. Really now? How......."educated" of you.

1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala.
200,000 civilians killed.
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/gmala.php

1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador.
70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/elsalvador.php

Third, don't even start about Saddam. He's a cowardly mass murderer.

1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/iraq.php

Now that I've countered your "points", to my points.

uh...

1. Think about Europe. All the time that they've sat and warred over this and that, trying to establish something useful, and they happened to try to get more land by colonization. And then what happened? The colonies revolted, became a much larger country than the ones from Europe, and became the "superpower" of the world in about two and a half hundred years.

Ok, ask any European in here if they actually care about the colonies revolting. Also, you didn't mention Native Americans, nice.

2. We always seem to have it good. All the industry, all the money, and they got nothing.

Because you took it all from "them".

3. We, unlike everybody else, decided that our citizens SHOULD matter. That pissed off the other countries...we suddenly had all these patriots.

Yes, your citizens do matter (unless of course they're native) but if someone isn't a citizen fo America, it really doesn't matter does it? Oh and, Canada or England or Japan doesn't care about its citizens?

4. We have such a powerful military. Over a million dollars spent on training a single Marine, the world's best snipers.

Guess what it's used for.
September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.

5. We "interfere". Interfere my ass. We tried to do what was right. We weren't even involved until WW2 when Japan came over and attacked Hawaii. Then we nuked 'em. Suddenly the world seems to think we're "barbarians" or something.

See the above links.

6. We're easy to hate. Look at us. Nice, big country with high population, all of those patriots, big guns, money. A target.

please remove that flag from your ass, it's blocking your ego.

7. Naturally, we had so much success. We invented the automobile. (Btw...we aren't backwards for driving on the right side of the road. The rest of the world is backwards for driving on the left---we made the machine, guys) Cars are important little fkers.

And I thought it was an individual who invented the automobile.

Now I close. What I said about Europe...I don't hate Europe. Except those fuckers with little Bush Swastikas. Oh, REAL mature. Compare Bush to Hitler...the leader of the country that fucking destroyed the Nazis. Anyway...Britain's usually pretty cool. I hate France, so does everybody else though. Irish and Scottish have awesome accents. Cool. Whatever.

Why do you hate France? Because it's the patriotic thing to do?

At 9/9/03 09:21 PM, punk_disease wrote: Why do you hate France? Because it's the patriotic thing to do?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, if you MUST know, I myself have French blood. Too bad. I dislike the French because they refuse to do anything. Don't reply and say that I'm enslaving France, you know that's not what I said. What I'm saying is that the only way France will stop their trash-talking about America is if we saved their asses AGAIN. And a week later, they'd start it up again. I'm not meaning to stereotype, not EVERY French person is like that, but it seems a good enough majority of them are. They have actually made "smelly" American tourists illegal in restaurants.

U.S.A. sucks

At 9/10/03 05:12 AM, Reclaw wrote: U.S.A. sucks

Thank you, Reclaw, for your amazingly unintelligent contribution to an otherwise moderately intellectually stimulating thread. I congratulate you on your dastardly achievement of lowering the mean substance level of this thread by such a slight, miniscule amount. I compel you to remove yourself from the gene pool in a most ignominious and theatrically pleasing way, that we may gain at least something (even if it is your severance) from your departure. Make haste, time to win a Darwin Award is running out.

Cheers,
ShubNiggurath.

Second, the reason we "interfere" in other conflicts is because everybody (such as a certain Canadian that replied) seems to think America is the "Big guy that could stop the fight".

No, America thought of itself like that. "The world policeman". Which is actually a load of bollocks, it's just modern imperialism.

Third, don't even start about Saddam. He's a cowardly mass murderer.

So like George Bush?

1. Think about Europe. All the time that they've sat and warred over this and that, trying to establish something useful, and they happened to try to get more land by colonization. And then what happened? The colonies revolted, became a much larger country than the ones from Europe, and became the "superpower" of the world in about two and a half hundred years.

Europe did not control the US. Most of the US was controlled by Britain. Why this even matters I'm not quite sure. Do you think people are shamed by things that happened 200 years ago?

2. We always seem to have it good. All the industry, all the money, and they got nothing.

Who have nothing? Europe? The Middle East? Africa?

3. We, unlike everybody else, decided that our citizens SHOULD matter. That pissed off the other countries...we suddenly had all these patriots.

This point is actually counter to the truth. If the US cared about its citizens then it would provide for them, like all the European countries do.

4. We have such a powerful military. Over a million dollars spent on training a single Marine, the world's best snipers.

Britain has the world's best snipers. People are sent over here to be trained.

5. We "interfere". Interfere my ass. We tried to do what was right. We weren't even involved until WW2 when Japan came over and attacked Hawaii. Then we nuked 'em. Suddenly the world seems to think we're "barbarians" or something.

What about all the Latin America dirty wars? How about involvement in Vietnam, Korea, etc, etc?

6. We're easy to hate. Look at us. Nice, big country with high population, all of those patriots, big guns, money. A target.

You just have no idea.

(Btw...we aren't backwards for driving on the right side of the road. The rest of the world is backwards for driving on the left---we made the machine, guys)

You didn't invent roads. And you are backwards because it was the established tradition of driving on the left, after the US broke free it decided to be defient.

Cars are important little fkers.

Your point? The British invented the jet engine, the TV, the computer, the internet, etc, etc (watch how many replies this gets, people always quarrel over this. The truth of the matter is that most things are invented by one or more people (some ideas, like the internet are just stolen.))

Compare Bush to Hitler...the leader of the country that fucking destroyed the Nazis.

The US did not destroy Hitler.

At 9/10/03 09:24 AM, Slizor wrote: Your point? The British invented the jet engine, the TV, the computer, the internet, etc, etc

No, Germany invented the jet engine. And Al Gore invented the internet.

i think ther is a little misunderstanding here.
noone can say usa is incompetent. alot of inventions were and are useful to mankind. usa is a beautiful and interesting country, such as many others. they have smart men, advanced research centres and is a very economicly evolved country.
what i dont like in the usa is the government. but not only the usa's.

my opinion about iraq:
saddam was a ruthless (thats how you write it?) dictator, and his reign should be stopped, i agree on that. what i dont agree is that stupid "cowboy" attitude of marching in without any athorization from the UN and start shooting everything.
if the UN had taken over this affair, you should be certain that there would not be the slaughter that was this war. the usa would have the support of other contrys, and everything would have gone smooth and with the minimum of casualties.

but no. the usa thought that they dont need any UN. and they went, along with the UK, thinking that it would be like afganistan (thats how you write it?), just march in, mass bomb the place and the problem is solved. i think anyone can see that it was not that easy.
why did they ignore the UN?, you ask. i have a few suggestions... (greed?)

PS- sorry for my english

At 9/10/03 02:32 PM, ceelar wrote:

I find it hard to believe that if money was the only US goal why we would bother to spend so much to help rebuild other parts of the country besides oil production. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars just for some oil sounds pretty stupid to me.

If the UN had taken over, there wouldn't be a war. I don't understand how they expected to find anything in the first place with so few inspectors just wandering around the country.
And we didn't mass bomb Iraq. If we didn't care about collateral damage, we wouldn't be spending so much money to help rebuild the country.

Also, Africa was screwed up way before European involvement.
Other remarks: Yes, we once helped Al-Quaida because they were fighting off the Soviets. We haven't helped them since then.
And I'm sure Afghanistan wasn't considered a major threat before 9/11, even though we knew Osama was there and hated us.
Would everyone please stop quoting statistics from Bowling for Columbine! I have seen it and support its position against guns, but I'm willing to bet that you could come up with plenty of other casualty statistics about probably Britain, France, Russia, Spain, and probably several other countries that were once involved in numerous bloody wars, though not as recent as Korea and Vietnam.

And if capitalism is so bad, why has it worked so well for us, Britain, and several other European countries including Russia, where communism failed. Command economies and dictatorships aren't very effective compared to free enterprise.

At 8/25/03 08:58 PM, Jafit-Man wrote: i think everyone hates america because it has the perfect mixture of arrogance, ignorance and hypocracy.

basicly, america keeps telling everyone how great it is while the average american knows and cares not what happens to the rest of the world, like in a survey before the war 9/100 americans didnt know where iraq was (when asked to point it out on a map, among the failures someone actually pointed to the caspian sea! and about 8 people pointed to france.) i'v also heard that about 50% of americans dont even know where new york is.

also, another reason for people hating america (particularly poor people) is that it is so incredibly rich. its people have everything they could need, but they still bitch to their analists.

why do u think everyone hates america?

I live in Australia and i can honestly say it's those damn TV shows like SVU and Law and Order and CSI there's just too many of them and they're all the same god i hate american television.

I don't know about that 9/100 thing statistics are a tricky business especially polls like that. Most people who have the time to do them are unemployed and uneducated or won't take it seriously.

Well, on 9/11 2003 (why does that sound like the Superbowl?), it appears Americans hate themselves. Bush can't be bothered to go down to Ground Zero to lead the minutes silence...sorry, both of them. Or four, I forget. And when Cheney was going to go, the Mayor of New York told him to stay in Washington, claiming "security advice."

Another example of The Bush Leadership Skool - Be there in spirit. On a TV screen. Because you have naptime scheduled.

I know it sounds like a potshot, but it's ridiculous that he thinks Ossie's Gang will join the celebrations two years along. No, they'll be blowing up the Hoover Dam next Tuesday, of course...

At 9/10/03 05:35 PM, adrshepard wrote:

I find it hard to believe that if money was the only US goal why we would bother to spend so much to help rebuild other parts of the country besides oil production. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars just for some oil sounds pretty stupid to me.

the rebuilding of iraq is being done by alot of american enterprises, and one specificly (i dont recall its name) is or was owned by usa's vice president (i saw this on the news)

If the UN had taken over, there wouldn't be a war. I don't understand how they expected to find anything in the first place with so few inspectors just wandering around the country.

of course there wouldnt be a war. the UN would try to solve things peacefully.

so few inspectors just wandering around the country.

yes and we see now houndreds of soldiers in iraq that find exacly the same thing - nothing

And we didn't mass bomb Iraq. If we didn't care about collateral damage, we wouldn't be spending so much money to help rebuild the country.

of course usa didnt mass bomb iraq. they wanted the oil tanks secured.

And if capitalism is so bad, why has it worked so well for us, Britain, and several other European countries including Russia, where communism failed.

communism in russia didnt fail. russia started to fall when other politics have been applied. now russia is a complete chaos.

At 9/11/03 01:37 PM, ceelar wrote:

At 9/10/03 05:35 PM, adrshepard wrote: And if capitalism is so bad, why has it worked so well for us, Britain, and several other European countries including Russia, where communism failed.

communism in russia didnt fail. russia started to fall when other politics have been applied. now russia is a complete chaos.

Communism in Russia did in fact fail. Nice try on avoiding adrshepard's point.

You guys realize that your president is fucked.
I went to see A Perfect Circle yesterday, and Maynard apoligized on the U.S's behalf for being such a fucked up country : )

Well, Bush is going to have a hard time being re-elected.