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At 1/5/08 10:49 PM, TheMason wrote: My problem is that we cannot guarantee their civil rights.

very very good point

Unskilled labour is already available in abundance, even excess, and people with skills can generally immigrate fairly easily. Therefore, generally speaking, illegal immigration is not pragmatically beneficial to a given nation.

At 1/5/08 11:01 PM, I-RULE-OVER-ALL wrote:

no it ruins the economy if you look at any of our arguments and what good is a dollar if no one has one to spend.

if it gets too under inflated, yes

At 1/5/08 11:25 PM, Gunter45 wrote:

At 1/5/08 10:53 PM, fli wrote: So does vacationing in other places other than the United States.

Spending money in other states still helps the United States economy which, consequently, is what I was talking about.

*countries

I meant visiting other countries-- not a visit to the East coast, or something like that.

My mistake.

At 1/5/08 11:25 PM, T-N-T wrote:

My friend, I have to agree with everyone that responded before you said "so you're saying that americans are lazy?"

i was just asking if that is what mesmorize thaught

i dont think americans are lazy

At 1/5/08 11:47 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

At 1/5/08 11:01 PM, I-RULE-OVER-ALL wrote:

no it ruins the economy if you look at any of our arguments and what good is a dollar if no one has one to spend.

if it gets too under inflated, yes

you don't know the half of economics don't you they come here talk LEGAL citizens jobs, and don't get taxes out of their payment. that makes everyone pay and the more it happens the worse the economy gets, and if we allow them to work here all the companies will hire them, and ruin the economy, and every person who has to work for there living will be poor.

Thats why we have to increase border security to prevent that and every illegal immigrant should be deported.

At 1/5/08 11:44 PM, Musician wrote: Interesting idea here guys. how about punishing the companies that hire Illegal immigrants instead of just the immigrants themselves.
I'm crazy I know.

Well, this was an issue a while back, but it subsided when the liberals widely refused the idea of national ID cards that double as drivers licenses. That's really the best way it could be done.

Because the very basis of their life in this country is based on breaking the law, they are here illegally, and they commit enormous amounts of crime on top of that. They disrespect and DEFILE the sovereignty of the very country they demand they be allowed to live in and exploit.

If you put it in context, and realize how many illegals are here, and how many problems they cause (including Americans they kill) it would be better to refer to them as an invasion force rather than immigrants. That's basically what they're are. They are invading and colonizing us, they aren't immigrating and assimilating with our invitation. They are coming here against our will, and in the process they do horrible things while they are here.

Let's take a look:

- Illegal immigrants in the US commit a lot of crime.

- Illegal immigrants commit crime at a much higher rate than the typical US citizen or US resident, we're talking about several crimes per illegal immigrant on record in studies.

- 12 Americans are killed everyday by illegal immigrants. This translates to more Americans being killed by illegal immigrants since 2001 than by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined, by several times.

- Every year illegal immigrants commit 1 million sex crimes in the US. An estimated 100 sex offenders cross into the US illegally EVERY SINGLE DAY!

- Illegal immigrants cause a net deficit to the US due to the fact they don't pay taxes yet at the same time they consume tax-funded resources and services.

- Most Mexicans believe that the South West US belongs to Mexico!!! The vast majority of illegal immigrants come from Mexico... these people that don't even respect our sovereignty, don't believe that the southwest belongs to us, and are invading our country by the millions.

- Oh, and the Mexican government is encouraging their people to come here illegally, and teaching them how.

---------------

That's why illegal immigration is bad. Because it's not immigration, it's invasion.

At 1/6/08 12:21 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

How many times do you make almost this exact argument and it goes ignored?

lol

At 1/6/08 12:32 AM, Christopherr wrote:

At 1/6/08 12:21 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

How many times do you make almost this exact argument and it goes ignored?

how many time do idiots start this argumant

At 1/6/08 12:32 AM, Christopherr wrote:

At 1/6/08 12:21 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

How many times do you make almost this exact argument and it goes ignored?

A lot.

Nobody who wants to defend illegals can address it so it tends to kill the thread.

But it's the truth, and a apparently its a truth that is too detrimental to the liberal argument that they don't even attempt to give me a challenge.

And seriously, I can't blame the Mexicans for thinking that parts of the southern US belong to them. I mean seriously, what was the Mexican war if it wasn't us just being assholes and taking land from them (like we had done with the Native Americans before them).

MANIFEST DESTINY LOL

At 1/6/08 01:02 AM, Musician wrote: And seriously, I can't blame the Mexicans for thinking that parts of the southern US belong to them. I mean seriously, what was the Mexican war if it wasn't us just being assholes and taking land from them (like we had done with the Native Americans before them).

And you further just discredit anything and everything you say.

The southwest belongs to the US.

Just because Mexico is bitter about what happened 150 years doesn't mean we are obligated to be sympathetic to their bitterness and allow it to destroy what is now OUR country.

MANIFEST DESTINY LOL

La RECONQUISTA LOL

At 1/6/08 01:09 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Just because Mexico is bitter about what happened 150 years doesn't mean we are obligated to be sympathetic to their bitterness and allow it to destroy what is now OUR country.

No, but it shows that it's not something you can hold against them. They are justified in their thinking,

At 1/6/08 01:31 AM, Musician wrote:

At 1/6/08 01:09 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: Just because Mexico is bitter about what happened 150 years doesn't mean we are obligated to be sympathetic to their bitterness and allow it to destroy what is now OUR country.

No, but it shows that it's not something you can hold against them. They are justified in their thinking,

And we'd be justified in sending every single one of them back to Mexico if it was possible, as a matter of national security.

Cellar, like I said in that other thread, I found a position I agree with you on!

Breaking the law and undermining the stability of the system is one of the most offensive thing a person may do! Illegals, regardless of pros and cons, do just that, undermine the system. If you Americans start allowing this (again, this is beyond looking at the consequences of illegals but just at the basic "breaking the law" aspect), your whole immigration system may break down.

Why would a Mexican try to legally immigrate to the USA if they could just jump a fence?

At 1/5/08 10:38 PM, Christopherr wrote:

At 1/5/08 10:31 PM, Antimatter500 wrote:

They commit unbelievable amounts of crime, too.

this is a racist, unfunny, untrue, ignorant statement only to be said by someone who has absolutly no tollerance for anything diffrent.

It wasn't racist... it was based on facts and numbers:
"In the population study of a sample of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990."
Source

And you don't think those numbers were affected by racism? Cops can be racist and part of their job is to be on the lookout for undocumented workers. Some places, like LA in the 80's, are famous for their racist cops.

Also, people are most likely to call the cops on someone who they don't like, than on someone who they relate to.

Stop pretending like it's not racism.

One of the constants of American history which nobody acknowledges, there have always been non-citizens.

Periods of emergency cut off those labor supplies. The Red Scare beginning after the Russian Revolution and then the Depression of the 1930s drove Congress to establish tight quotas based on nationality. The bombing of Pearl Harbor and World War II gave Congress the excuse to tighten up Chinese and Japanese immigration.

After World War II, we immediately began importing hundreds of thousands of workers from Mexico, and illegal immigrants followed those jobs. That has been the constant reality on the ground in the country ever since. Mexicans are confused. Employers want them, but the Government doesn't. Oh wait, now Bush says it's ok. Oh shit, now it's not. Make up your mind. Do you really expect a man that makes 4 dollars a day in Mexico to follow the current immigration debate? Stop kidding yourselves.

Federal courts have decreed that localities cannot deny healthcare or education based on citizenship status.

Most times, immigration is used as a scapegoat for many issues. People like the residents of Escondido and Hazleton watched with frustration as their resources were consumed by people they perceived not to be taxpayers at a time when the overall infrastructure was coming apart. They found an impoverished group with no vote and little ability to communicate in the same language, the poorest of the poor, the illegal immigrants living among them.

But even illegal immigrants make some contribution back to the communities in which they live. They do not pay income tax, but they do pay property taxes via their rent, which means they contribute to many local costs. They pay sales tax every time they buy something.

Other factors are at play here. Like fear.

Up front, the 9/11 attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon sent many Americans over the edge of panic. Anti-immigration forces took that fear and wielded it like a cudgel to enforce change.

In a local FOX news report, a local teacher said: "I had 55 classmates killed in the Twin Towers because of 19 illegal immigrants." Again the facts are irrelevant-all of the hijackers entered the country legally, meaning none were illegal immigrants, though a few had some immigration violations.

Again, American history is rife with this kind of fear: The Alien and Sedition Acts were passed back in the first Adams administration, just 10 years after the nation's founding. California passed its share of laws discriminating against Chinese immigrants.

Stop living in fear. Look! An immigrant! He will steal your job!

No doubt about that. In speeches, anti-immigrant groups like the Minutemen frequently refer to the attacks of 9/11, and they often invoke the symbolism of the Twin Towers to make their point. The 700-mile border fence recently funded by Congress has been justified, in part, as a means to stop terrorists from getting into the county.

The military language of the Minutemen offers another paradigm for illegal immigration. The history of Southern California is one of repeated capture. In San Diego, the Kumeyaay natives lived here for centuries before the Spanish established a mission in the 18th century. Mexico took over after achieving independence in 1821, followed by the capture of the territory by the United States after the Mexican-American war in 1848. The area has been a battle ground between white Europeans and locals for hundreds of years.

To Minutemen and people like cellardoor6, the migrant population is just another invasion from the south.

For immigrants, border crossing is a means to economic survival. For Anglo-America, it's a question of cultural survival. Which matters most to you?

But perhaps what you all forget is that the reason undocumented people are here working is the same as the reason the people are being downsized and outsourced. It's a global, brutally competitive, international economy with an increasingly interchangeable work force.

It's all fine and dandy if you want to pay your citizens 8 bucks per hour, but let's see how you compete in the world market.

Let me just add this as an off-topic side note: Stop treating cellardoor6 as the end-all of all arguments. Post your beliefs, and don't let yourself be bullied by him. I know he is smart, I know he has posted here for many years, and I know that he has earned the respect of most of the regulars here.

Still, you treat him as some kind of God. Don't. We are all equal. I'm sick of threads ending because cellardoor6 starts bullying someone and then people grow tired and just leave.

Have you noticed that not a lot of Newgrounds user visit the politics forum? A large group of people don't visit because of the constant arguing.

Let me quote Tri-Nitro-Toluene and Gagsy:

At 1/2/08 09:29 AM, Gagsy wrote: Both is a good mix I find. Otherwise you'll get too many serious educated assholes 'fighting' with each other

:: Heh, you only got to look at the Politics forum to see a prime example of that.

:: As Gagsy says, a mix is the best, though more emphasis on intelligent debate is better in my mind than the childish stuff.

My parents were immergrants. They had to work their asses off, to spend the next 4 years of their lives to become bonified Canadians! through tests, such as Language tests, and knowledge of national history.... The movie "Moscow on the Hudson" with Robin Williams, explains this tediously long process. that accumulates to the Citizenship oath. The rewards to becoming a citizen... is the right to vote, have a passport, and enjoy the hard earned freedoms that immergrants have worked 4 years for.....

How would you like it if some person with dubious loyalties, just came in and didn't learn the language, or even try to be come a productive member of your society?

At 1/6/08 02:30 PM, hongkongexpress wrote: How would you like it if some person with dubious loyalties, just came in and didn't learn the language, or even try to be come a productive member of your society?

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace..."
- John Lennon

Ah the joy of the continued woeful misuse of sources. Seriously guys, I don't think anyone actually bothers to read links that people put up. I've just tabbed al of the sources that cellardoor has used here and four are from "WorldNetDaily", two are from the "Centre of Immigration Studies" and other two quote the same source. It's not exactly a list of high-brow, well-respected and diverse studies, is it?

Let's take a look:

- Illegal immigrants in the US commit a lot of crime.

Jailed illegal immigrants in the US commit a lot of crime. I'm going to guess that any study in the world that looked at the level of crime committed by people in prison would find that a lot of crime was committed by those people.

- Illegal immigrants commit crime at a much higher rate than the typical US citizen or US resident, we're talking about several crimes per illegal immigrant on record in studies.

If you paid any attention to the methodology used then you would know that it does not say that. The report asked jailed illegal immigrants, not the population as a whole, how many crimes they had committed. Therefore it can not be compared with the "typical US citizen" when it comes to levels of crime as it does not profile the typical illegal immigrant.

- 12 Americans are killed everyday by illegal immigrants. This translates to more Americans being killed by illegal immigrants since 2001 than by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined, by several times.

I had a quick look at the links that that link provided and I couldn't actually find the source for those "statistics". For such a well-researched website this is a huge abberation.

- Every year illegal immigrants commit 1 million sex crimes in the US. An estimated 100 sex offenders cross into the US illegally EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Now look at this wonderful bit of statistical trickery.
"Schurman-Kauflin concluded that, based on a figure of 12 million illegal immigrants and the fact that more of this population is male than average, sex offenders among illegals make up a higher percentage than offenders in the general population.

She arrives at the figure of 240,000 offenders - a conservative estimate, she says - through public records showing about 2 percent of illegals apprehended are sex offenders."

So there's 12 million illegals, 2% of illegals apprehended are sex offenders....therefore 240,000. Easy......apart from the fact that it assumes that every single illegal immigrant has been arrested and patently ignores the fact that people get arrested because they commit sex crimes.

- Illegal immigrants cause a net deficit to the US due to the fact they don't pay taxes yet at the same time they consume tax-funded resources and services.

No, according to those statistics they cause a net deficit to the US government, not to the US. The economic impact of immigration is greater than just the use of social services and the payment of taxes. Other than that the methodology that they use is a bit open for discussion. Since they openly admit that
"Those individuals who report that they personally receive Social Security benefits, cash assistance under Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF), Supplemental Security benefits (SSI), or who are enrolled in Medicaid are also assumed not to be illegal aliens. However, other members of a household headed by an illegal alien can receive these programs, mostly the U.S.-born children of illegals."
This would mean that the study is predominantly looking at the children of illegal aliens (who, as all children are, would currently constitute a drain on tax revenues), not illegal aliens themselves.

- Most Mexicans believe that the South West US belongs to Mexico!!! The vast majority of illegal immigrants come from Mexico... these people that don't even respect our sovereignty, don't believe that the southwest belongs to us, and are invading our country by the millions.

The study, commissioned by "Americans for Immigration Control", apparently asked if the South West rightfully belonged to Mexico. This, to many, would be interpreted as a historical question or a nationalist question - based on the right of Mexico to its former land. It's not an issue of them not believing the Southwest belongs to the US, but that it rightfully belongs to the US.

- Oh, and the Mexican government is encouraging their people to come here illegally, and teaching them how.

Actually the booklet is a list of don'ts, instead of dos. It's really a matter of interpretation whether you think it constitutes encouragement or is bourn of a desire to stop Mexicans getting killed when they do try to get into the US.

Since there are so many immigrates, the U.S. simply cannot deport all of them, you have to pay to track these people and it is very time consumming, putting up a fence also does not keep illegals out, therefore I purpose the idea of a local goverment sweep of all employees in all buissness areas, the company that hired the illegal will also found the illegals deportment plus a hefty fee. I know this may sound stupid to some of you, but I'm open to critizism.

At 1/6/08 04:35 PM, ImaSmartass2 wrote: Since there are so many immigrates, the U.S. simply cannot deport all of them, you have to pay to track these people and it is very time consumming, putting up a fence also does not keep illegals out, therefore I purpose the idea of a local goverment sweep of all employees in all buissness areas, the company that hired the illegal will also found the illegals deportment plus a hefty fee. I know this may sound stupid to some of you, but I'm open to critizism.

I don't think it's stupid. In fact, I think it's the most sensible course. You also have to police the border though and keep people from coming in the USA, but the current approach will get us nowhere. I'm all for policing the border, but not for militarizing it. We are not at War with Mexico.

Some people refer to the undocumented migrants as an "invasion" or a "swarm". To me, those words conjure unpleasant vermin or bugs of some sort. It speaks volumes about how they regard Latino immigrants, illegal or otherwise, and it suggests that things are getting out of hand in North America-the fearful are becoming bold enough to stop just short of overtly negative racial commentary in our politically correct society. Storm's a-brewin'.

Remember that all people, criminals or not, are all equal under God.

If you really want to keep Mexicans in Mexico, buy Mexican products and visit Mexico during your vacations. It's a win-win situation.

At 1/6/08 03:26 PM, RommelTJ wrote:

- John Lennon

Why anyone would take advice from a drugged up rockstar, I have no idea.

And allow me to say this before Slizor becomes any more idiotic:

Illegals are illegals, and that's all you need to know to figure out-They don't need to be here.

At 1/6/08 05:13 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 1/6/08 03:26 PM, RommelTJ wrote:

- John Lennon

Why anyone would take advice from a drugged up rockstar, I have no idea.

You don't think we need to give peaceful coexistence a shot? How sad.

But yeah, Mexicans should keep in Mexico, and American should keep in the USA. That's how things should work. Or, we can just knock down all borders....

Proof that the majority of Newgrounds Forum users are nice to undocumented migrants

I don't know what that proves, but it sure made my day.

At 1/6/08 03:32 PM, Slizor wrote: Ah the joy of the continued woeful misuse of sources.

Ah, the joy of being a coward like Slizor who never provides any links himself but instead resorts to mindless semantics as his only way of arguing.

Seriously guys, I don't think anyone actually bothers to read links that people put up. I've just tabbed al of the sources that cellardoor has used here and four are from "WorldNetDaily", two are from the "Centre of Immigration Studies" and other two quote the same source. It's not exactly a list of high-brow, well-respected and diverse studies, is it?

Then provide some "high-brow, well-respected and diverse studies" to back up your argument you feckless coward.

Go.

Go ahead. Quit being a coward and actually provide facts for your argument.

- 12 Americans are killed everyday by illegal immigrants. This translates to more Americans being killed by illegal immigrants since 2001 than by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined, by several times.

I had a quick look at the links that that link provided and I couldn't actually find the source for those "statistics".

Then provide a source for alternate statistics.

Go.

For such a well-researched website this is a huge abberation.

Prove it.

Provide some "well-documented" sources that prove otherwise.

Go.

- Illegal immigrants cause a net deficit to the US due to the fact they don't pay taxes yet at the same time they consume tax-funded resources and services.

No, according to those statistics they cause a net deficit to the US government, not to the US.

And...

The economic impact of immigration is greater than just the use of social services and the payment of taxes.

Prove it.

Go.

This would mean that the study is predominantly looking at the children of illegal aliens (who, as all children are, would currently constitute a drain on tax revenues), not illegal aliens themselves.

Prove it.

The study, commissioned by "Americans for Immigration Control", apparently asked if the South West rightfully belonged to Mexico. This, to many, would be interpreted as a historical question or a nationalist question - based on the right of Mexico to its former land. It's not an issue of them not believing the Southwest belongs to the US, but that it rightfully belongs to the US.

WOW

The most mindless semantics I've ever seen in my life.

The majority of the population of Mexico believe the Southwest of the US belongs to Mexico, period. The fact that the vast majority of the 12-20 million illegal immigrants in the US come from Mexico would scare just about anyone.

No other country in the world would tolerate that.

- Oh, and the Mexican government is encouraging their people to come here illegally, and teaching them how.

Actually the booklet is a list of don'ts, instead of dos.

It's a booklet that assists illegal immigrants in their quest to ILLEGALLY ENTER OUR COUNTRY.

And once again, you've managed to base an entire argument of yours on semantics, while providing zero proof for anything you say and nothing but the whims of your imagination as evidence.

Provide facts for something you say for once in your life.