Composition Conundrums? Ask here!

[WritersBlock]

Hey, I basically had this idea for a thread where anyone could bring up questions about composing they would like answered. I'd like to think I know enough about the subject to give some informative answers, but if I can't, then maybe someone else can, else I'll probably consult wikipedia for reference, and try and break the topic down for easy comprehension.

I thought this would be handy, because there are probably a fair few people who have trouble with 1 understanding the general point of composition, or they would like to know specifics, but can't understand some concepts, or some people may have a writer's block (LOL) and don't know where to start, and breaking things down can help a lot.

So, to be clear, you can ask questions about the structure and composition of music, this ranges from genres, forms, time and key signatures, playing techniques, phrasing and melody, the flow of the piece, rhythms and harmony, it may be jazz techniques and syncopation, it may be chord progressions and melodies based around them.

A few ground rules to follow:

Keep to the topic, technical things with synths or fruity loops or other program/digital type questions aren't strictly based on composition, so keep that to a minimum and make sure that when you bring up digital software, there is a high relevance to the topic.

Everyone is welcome to ask relevant questions, and it is encouraged, if you have an issue, I'd be more than glad to talk it over, keep in mind that others may have the same or similar issues, and if you do your own research, you might not get a solid or correct answer, and other people might miss out on the information (especially if they're just browsing around, looking for little bits of info here and there).

If you attempt to answer a question, try and make it as detailed and informative as possible, use examples where possible, and keep it understandable.

If you have an idea of what someone is asking, but am unsure, post what you think but state that you're not completely sure. I'll try and rephrase or confirm/deny your comments.

Follow the BBS rules (duh!)

Follow rule 10 (even bigger duh!)

I think that covers all the basics, so, feel free to pose your composition conundrum, and hopefully, we can accumulate some wider musical knowledge! [/cheesy welcome message]

[Nav]

Ok, I'll start this off with a question.

Of course, there are chord progressions, and all of them work.

However, what retrogressions are common, and what does each one sound like. One I know is:
V -> IV -> I and that's the blues.

Are there any other ones, and where are they applicable?

[Nav]

At 1/1/08 12:25 AM, Simon-F wrote: The ear always enjoys movement by fifths; iii - vi - ii - V - I is a good sequence that can be used in a variety of ways, often to end a phrase because the entire movement sets itself up for a strong conclusive resolution. The sequence also sounds fine if you start on vi or ii to make the progression shorter, and there are any number of ways of approaching it (V7/vi - vi - ii - V - I, for example).

Well, that's the most common progression, and I'm looking for alternative ones!

i - VII - VI - V has a classic Spanish folk flair if the V is given emphasis, making it sort of a phrygian scale with a major tonic.

Yeah, that's the kinda stuff I'm talking about! I'll see what that sounds like in a song!

[WritersBlock]

At 1/1/08 12:25 AM, Simon-F wrote:

At 12/31/07 10:08 PM, navij11 wrote: Are there any other ones, and where are they applicable?

Here are two that might be helpful:

The ear always enjoys movement by fifths; iii - vi - ii - V - I is a good sequence that can be used in a variety of ways, often to end a phrase because the entire movement sets itself up for a strong conclusive resolution. The sequence also sounds fine if you start on vi or ii to make the progression shorter, and there are any number of ways of approaching it (V7/vi - vi - ii - V - I, for example).'

Ahh, yes, the "circle of fifths". I've never tried this out but it is a good transitional progression. The same concept can be applied by modulating to the dominant (fifth note) of the scale, then modulating to the dominant of that etc until you get back to the first, I think the principals are the same but with this, you're able to use more notes and change the chords within the modulation, although you should still keep around the first of the scale, using I, IV or vi chords.

i - VII - VI - V has a classic Spanish folk flair if the V is given emphasis, making it sort of a phrygian scale with a major tonic.

I think I have a list of which chords usually lead to which other chords, such as I to V, IV to V, V to vi, but it's at home, and I am not, I'll try and find it when I do get home. Generally speaking, chord vii is not used all that often in classical music because it doesn't fit as well with the other chords.

Blues, as you mentioned, "12 bar blues" goes: I, I, I, I, IV, IV, I, I, V, IV, I, I. Although progressions starting with I, I, IV, V, I, IV, V, I can develop into a similar sounding blues progression.

I don't know a great deal about different types of chord progressions, but I have come across this wikipedia page.

I'll list the progressions from wikipedia, and I'll try and explain the ones I can relate with.

I, vi, IV, V- I remember playing around with this progression when I first started using the piano, it sounds nice when followed by I, vi, ii, V.
A popular one, I am rather fond of is I, V, vi, IV, which is popular for mainstream rock type music.
I, I, IV, V. Short and simple.
i, bVI, bIII, bVII. The b represents a first inversion to those wondering, so the bass would be played as 1, 1, 3, 2. This progression is quite emotive, played at slow speeds, such as in "Pieces".
Any combinations of I, IV and V. Wow, how specific, wikipedia.
I, II, IV, try it out, I'm unfamiliar with it.
I, bVII, IV-as in "Sweet Home Alabama". With progressions like this (as in, 3 chords with the third being twice as long as the first two), it's best put to use with a leading melody to fill out the IV chord, otherwise it'd be kinda boring, but that's just my opinion.
i, bVI, IV- as in "heart shaped box", similar to the previous progression.
i, bIII, bVII, IV. Another progression, can't think of random crap to say about its uses.
I bIII, IV. Try it out.
I-%u266DVI-%u266DVII- I think the %u266D MIGHT mean it's an augmented chord, I don't know.
i, bIII, IV, bVI- as in "house of the rising sun". Bluesy type, there were a few chords to finish the phrase, it was a I, then I think it was a VII in the bass, maybe a V chord, and then back up to the I chord, I'm not sure.
i, bVII, bVI, bVII, I don't know how this one sounds.

I don't exactly find these progressions useful, I find that it's best to shape a progression around a melody and bassline, although the spanish progression is nice.
I think there's one other progression that I know that wasn
t mentioned on wikipedia, it was the riff from "Smells like teen spirit"- F5-Bb5-Ab5-Db5, i, iv, III, VI (I think that's the numeric progression), anyways, I've always remembered that one for its similarities to the theme for "Futurama" with the bass notes.

I know I couldn't be overly helpful here, only really wikipedia information (naming chord progressions has been one of my worst attributes, I sound better on a more general basis, =P )

Also, keep in mind, the cadence. Cadences are our friend, a top way to finish a song, if only I did that more often...
V, I.

[WritersBlock]

At 1/1/08 05:17 AM, Simon-F wrote: The wikipedia article hasn't been completely formatted correctly (hence, some progressions are marked with a 'flat' graphic and others have 'b') but the b is supposed to represent flat, no? That would make a lot more sense given the examples provided.

No, I think that they're using the b to represent inversions. I see you're using the baroque style basso continuo with 6 being a first and 64 being a second inversion. a would be root position, b, first, c second and d (in the case of a 7th chord) for a third inversion. So C maj 7 third inversion would start on the B.

This is true, I meant to imply with a minor 'i' that the scale was minor and therefore VI and VII are flat (and also major and uppercase, as opposed to vii being diminished and vi being minor; sorry if that was unclear).

Yes, same here, I should have clarified that also.

Ahhh gotcha, in that vein here are a few more suggestions (with flats indicated for clarity);
i - bVI - bIII64 - bVII - (i, bVI, etc.): this is a slight variation on the progression in the Wiki article that I've heard as epic/heroic or emotive as mentioned (I recall the soundtrack from Stardust abusing this progression to no end). I prefer it with the inversion because it's a little less blunt but it all depends on context and what you're trying to portray. I consider this progression excessively Hollywood-ized so personally I would think twice about using it because it might come off as more corny than anything else.

Interesting.

ii7 - V7 - I7 - IV7 - (ii7 - V7 - I, or something, plenty of options leading from IV7): slightly jazzier interpretation of movement by fifths (not exclusive to jazz, tho).

You've got a few good progressions up your sleeve.

I - IV64 - iv64 (or ii halfdim42) - I: this is a way to extend a phrase that's already been resolved, basically if you get to I and you still have momentum you want to go with but don't want to move to any other tonal areas per se this is handy because the tonic pedal anchors you.

So these are kind of like little cadences, right?

I - iii - IV - I: I - iii always adds a nice sentimental touch.

I - ii - iii - IV or IV - iii - ii - I: gospel! Generally speaking, uber-parallelisms can sound very gospel.

I'll add more as I think of 'em...

I know a song that starts out with chords I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, and then I think it goes back to IV, I and maybe back to vi, I'm not sure, but that progression has a nice rise and fall effect, a bit like "Hallelujah", except that I can't remember that progression...

[nal1200]

Not to be a stick in the mud, but I doubt a whole lot of people understand what's going on here.

I'm sure there are a ton of people on Newgrounds who would love to improve their music, but perhaps we should focus on this topic also orienting them with basic music theory?

Don't get me wrong, I know the fair majority of people here know their stuff, but those whom are looking for improving from their looped arps from the FL demo are probably going to want to start off simple.

I think the most important thing for a person to know when starting on their journey in music is what a scale is and how it functions in music.

At any rate, this is indeed going to be a very important topic, I just think it should have some more orienting information for the NGers wanting to learn music theory.

So, WritersBlock, if you would do the honors? Or perhaps would you like me to put in my musical two cents..?

[MJTTOMB]

if they don't know what they're talking about, they can just ask. I wouldn't type up a lecture just to explain
theory if there was the slightest chance that all was needed was just why we were using roman numerals to indicate chord values.

But anyway, I found a rather interesting progression the other day. it's very weird, but it sounds good when you fit it into the right ambience.

i, II, i, II, VI, iv dim7, i

idk, play around with it. it's the intro to my new piece. but yeah, the major second works rather nicely in minor scales. I never knew that. :P

[WritersBlock]

At 1/3/08 06:48 AM, MJTTOMB wrote: if they don't know what they're talking about, they can just ask. I wouldn't type up a lecture just to explain
theory if there was the slightest chance that all was needed was just why we were using roman numerals to indicate chord values.

That was my original thought, but I can write up something about scales, since nal1200 brought it up.

But anyway, I found a rather interesting progression the other day. it's very weird, but it sounds good when you fit it into the right ambience.

i, II, i, II, VI, iv dim7, i

idk, play around with it. it's the intro to my new piece. but yeah, the major second works rather nicely in minor scales. I never knew that. :P

Cool.

Scales:
For just starting out, I'll cover major and minor scales, keep it simple. The major and minor scales were invented in the Baroque period (approx 1600 to 1750), as a change away from the modal scales.
The major scale is straight forward, a C major scale consists of only the white keys of the piano, starting on C.
Thus, the notes in C major are C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. I should note down now, that the smallest gap between two notes on any western instrument is called a semitone. There is a pattern for major scales, which follow a pattern of semitones and tones (the distance of two semitones).
This is as follows:
C D E F G A B C
T T S T T T S
T=Tone, S=Semitone.
This means you can pick any note to start on, between A and G, let's say, B.
B C D E F G A B
T T S T T T S
The distance between B and C is a semitone, therefore the C must be raised a semitone, thus making it sharp. Lowering it a semitone would make it flat. But a C flat sounds the same as B, but it is theoretically a different note. C# to D is a semitone, so D must also be sharp. This is the same for F, G and A. So the B major scale has 5 sharps, F, C, G, D and A. It is written in this order, as that is how it should appear if written on manuscript paper. This is known as a key signature.
The order of notes in key signatures is:
----------------> for sharp notes.
F C G D A E B
<--------------- for flat notes.

This goes the same for minor scales, but there are three types of minor scales, natural, harmonic and melodic. The most frequently used is the harmonic minor scale, but they all branch from the natural minor scale.
The A natural minor scale uses only the white notes on the piano.
A B C D E F G A
T S T T S T T
The A minor scale, whether natural, harmonic, or melodic, has the same key signature, which matches that of the C major scale.
Note: The sixth note of a major scale is the first of its "relative minor". This is useful for modulations (key changes).

The A Harmonic minor has a raised seventh note, giving an arabic sort of feel.
A B C D E F G# A
T S T T S T1/2 S
T1/2= A tone and a half, three semitones. It is this three semitone jump that gives the arabic feel.
Even though harmonic minors have the raised seventh note, it is never placed in the key signature, always manually written on the score as an accidental (a sharp flat or natural sign that contradicts the key signature).

The A melodic minor isn't commonly used in compositions, more with instrumental practice, as the melodic minor has the sixth and seventh note of the scale raised a semitone when played upwards, but on the way down, they are played as a normal natural minor scale.
A B C D E F# G# A G F E D C B A
T S T T T T S T T S T T S T
This is good practice, as you have to be aware of finger placement, it's more varied.

Note, with harmonic and melodic minor scales, the raised sixth and seventh either go from a natural to a sharp or a flat to a natural. I don't think there are instances where the seventh is already a sharp and goes to a double sharp, but there are usually ways to keep things simple.

If there's anything else anyone has to add, or anything they don't understand, please say something, as this all sounds clear to me, but to a beginner, it may sound a different language, I try to keep it basic, but I can't always confirm that.

[Chris-V2]

How would you resolve a Diminshed chord? The only real resolutions I know of are (using the key of A harmonic minor for my examples):

D minor 7 - D Dim 7 - C Major

E Major- B Dim 7- E major

G Major- G# Dim - A minor - E Major - A minor

Same but for Augmented chords ....

C - C aug - A minor

C aug - E major

C aug - C major 6

Any ideas?