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After hearing such things, I'm beginning to think so. Do you?

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I'm pretty sure China does. Why else would they be sending us all of those defective products?

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At 12/27/07 06:35 PM, Bookman60 wrote: I'm pretty sure China does. Why else would they be sending us all of those defective products?

That's more of a private industry is lazy sort of thing. I'm pretty sure its not hate, rather, greed.

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In case you didn't notice the mood of my post I was just kidding around.

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At 12/27/07 06:55 PM, Al6200 wrote:

At 12/27/07 06:35 PM, Bookman60 wrote: I'm pretty sure China does. Why else would they be sending us all of those defective products?

That's more of a private industry is lazy sort of thing. I'm pretty sure its not hate, rather, greed.

We have to watch them carefully, or else they will cut costs by selling us crap for the same prices.

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At 12/27/07 05:22 PM, VGmasters wrote: After hearing such things, I'm beginning to think so. Do you?

Absolutely.

China and Russia both have aspirations and want to be superpowers. The US stands in their way and is currently the world's premiere force; economically, politically, militarily, and even culturally.

We're an obstacle to their ambitions. They hate us because we have what they want in terms of power and influence. But we also represent a form of government and a political philosophy that they don't want, that is the antithesis to their vision of what the world should be like. The powers that be in both Russia and China are totalitarian and authoritarian in nature. The US is a liberal democracy and has influenced and the supported the spread of democratic ideals that have taken root in Russia's and China's neighbors, and even with people inside their country.

This pisses them off.

Hell, look at Russia, it and Belarus are the ONLY former Soviet Republics that haven't become capitalist, democratic, US-allies after the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia's former sphere of influence consists of countries that willingly (and giddily) began to model themselves after the US the moment they got independence from Moscow.

It's no wonder that they hate us.

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At 12/27/07 08:02 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Hell, look at Russia, it and Belarus are the ONLY former Soviet Republics that haven't become capitalist, democratic, US-allies after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Not to rejoice in nitpicking, but I'd say that those Central Asia nations with the funny names are still pretty big on the despotism and russophilia.
Eastern Europe is aptly learning how to keep on rockin' in the free world and all, but all in all there's about 55+ million people within the so-called Turkestan whose lives haven't really improved since the fall of the wall.

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I'm not entirely sure about Russia, but China definitely does.

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I actually agree with you. There's a book written by on of Ronald Reagan's aides that goes into detail about why China hates us. They want to be the superpower that we are. I wouldn't be surprised if thirty years from now we have armed conflict with them.

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Russia yes. China could care less about the USA.

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At 12/27/07 10:40 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: I'm not entirely sure about Russia, but China definitely does.

We oughtta change that...somehow...I'd rather not get my ass kicked by a tidal wave off a gazillion pissed off chinese troopers.

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Depends on your and theirs definition of "hate".

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At 12/27/07 10:47 PM, AngelaStar wrote: Russia yes. China could care less about the USA.

On the contrary, the economies of the US and China are deeply linked. China does 21% of its trade with the US, and over 55% with American allies.

Use some reasoning and sources next time instead of just randomly jotting the first thing that comes to your head.

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At 12/27/07 08:02 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

China and Russia both have aspirations and want to be superpowers.

But mostly they want to improve the standard of living in their respective nations, which China has done quite well. If your definition of American success is an America that stays #1 by holding other nations down, then I'd say that's the greatest American failure.

:The US stands in their way and is currently the world's premiere force; economically, politically, :militarily, and even culturally.

Economically? How do we stand in their way? In fact, cooperation and trading with the American economy has been the greatest asset to a growing China. Why on Earth do you think the existence of one superpower necessarily stands in the way of another? And besides, why do you think its an American right to deny basic economic necessities to China on the grounds of our hegemony?

We're an obstacle to their ambitions.

Intelligent and competent Americans have tried to not be an obstacle. Only the block-headed leaders have attempted such a thing, to a great deal of suffering in China and America. Even Reagen worked to improve relations with China, taking a state visit.

:They hate us because we have what they want in terms of power and influence.

Why would they hate us? You're treating wealth like its something that nations fight over, not something that nations work together to achieve. American and Chinese cooperation has led to our mutual success, as over 50% of China's trade is with US allies. Indeed, the trade between the US and China has played a key role in both our nation's economic growth.

:But we also represent a form of government and a political philosophy that they don't want, that is :the antithesis to their vision of what the world should be like.

You use "they" a lot. Who is this "they"? The communist party? China's communist party has actually adopted many aspects of US government policy, including a freer market and non-government regulated prices.

:The powers that be in both Russia and China are totalitarian and authoritarian in nature.

Agreed.

:The US is a liberal democracy and has influenced and the supported the spread of democratic ideals :that have taken root in Russia's and China's neighbors, and even with people inside their country.

This pisses them off.

The democracy movements in China and Russia aren't serious enough to be threats to the regimes in power. You over-estimate the degree to which it "pisses them off".

Hell, look at Russia, it and Belarus are the ONLY former Soviet Republics that haven't become capitalist, democratic, US-allies after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Russia has become capitalist, and to a degree a US ally.

:Russia's former sphere of influence consists of countries that willingly (and giddily) began to model :themselves after the US the moment they got independence from Moscow.

Agreed.

It's no wonder that they hate us.

I agree that there exists a certain amount of hatred and distrust in a small sect of radical hard-liners. But to say that its all hatred and disgust is pure ignorance.

Former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin says:

"The Chinese government thinks China and the U.S. should develop a constructive relationship of cooperation"

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/jiang_zemin /3.html

But then again, you might say "Well, those are just words. Its the actions that matter. And I'd agree.

Also, do you have any sources for any of your claims? (BTW, you're proposing the theory, so the burden of proof lies on you to prove it. So far you've just thrown your opinion out, hoping that a spare bit of it will be right)

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At 12/28/07 01:57 AM, SapphireLight wrote: Depends on your and theirs definition of "hate".

Because we always need more confusing half definitions on the political forum.

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At 12/27/07 08:02 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Absolutely.

if china did hate America, wouldn't they be calling in the BILLIONS of debt that the treasury OWES china?

http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/bernank e_china_yuan

china is already too powerful for the US to stop, except in a war, if, china did not export the goods it did to the US, the inflation in america would be a lot higher.

As of russia, i don't think we could blame russia, since americas being so provocative, building military bases as close as possible.

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I don't know...

do the people of china and russia hate us?
Does the government of russia and china hate us?
Do the rocks and dirt and plants that make up the geographic region of russia and china hate us?

perhaps... we'll never know.

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I would suppose...javascript:MakeSmileySelection (14);
Expressionless

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China won't call in the debt because it would wreck the American economy and would in turn wreck their own economy. considering that VERY few if any country has no debt, China probably has debts with other countries that are allied with America and could call in their debts against China in retaliation. Also most of China's trade comes from America and its allies in the first place, an embargo against China would kill the country. America has plenty of tools to keep China in place.

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At 12/28/07 10:12 AM, Al6200 wrote:

At 12/27/07 08:02 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

China and Russia both have aspirations and want to be superpowers.

But mostly they want to improve the standard of living in their respective nations

And want power and influence.

The US stands in their way and is currently the world's premiere force; economically, politically, :militarily, and even culturally.

Economically? How do we stand in their way?

The US holds sway in every major financial center in the world. The US has the most influence on the WTO, the World Bank, the IMF etc...

China was held back from entering the WTO because of the US, it was the US that allowed them to enter it.

The US stands in their way beacuse despite China's growth, despite the fact that China will eventually have a bigger economy, the US will still have more economic clout because of the influence the US has, not only in international financial and trading blocs but also in the countries that China would need to win over to ever gain the amount of influence the US has.

In fact, cooperation and trading with the American economy has been the greatest asset to a growing China. Why on Earth do you think the existence of one superpower necessarily stands in the way of another?

Because that is not only the nature of politics, but it is human nature. There can't be two bullies on the same bloc for long, either one will crumble, or a war will break out between the two (could be economically, politically, militarily) until one comes out dominant.

And besides, why do you think its an American right to deny basic economic necessities to China on the grounds of our hegemony?

Sounds like you're quoting the Chinese themselves.

What are you, their mouthpiece?

Why don't you ask yourself this question; "Who gives Beijing the right to deny basic human rights and political necessities to the Chinese people on the grounds of them SUPPOSEDLY helping the economy?"

I never said the Chinese should be denied "economic necessities".

What I don't like is the fact that their government is a brutal, oppressive, unelected authoritarian government and has not made meaningful political strides to liberalize their GOVERNMENT and their actual political fabric to parallel their advancements in economic liberalization.

China's economy is becoming liberalized, it's definitely "freer" than it once was, but it's still not free. And their people aren't free either. Having more money, and being able to throw it around in ways you used to not be able to doesn't mean you have a freer society. The economy is still centrally controlled, but they loosened a few things up because upon observation of the world, they came to find that capitalism is much better for an economy.

They've made no political improvements.

If China was a democracy, and their government was more transparent, allowed for their to be free anf fair elections and quit brainwashing their people by censoring their media, I'd have no problem with China.

I admire the Chinese culture, for fuck sake my apartment is entirely Feng Shui.

I don't want to deprive the Chinese people of anything, I just don't like the fact that a brutal, communist country is gaining enormous economic power, but is not making any real progress in the areas that should come FIRST, namely democratization.

We're an obstacle to their ambitions.

Intelligent and competent Americans have tried to not be an obstacle.

Intelligent, competent, and educated Americans know that the Chinese government's ambitions in the world put them at odds with the US, which WILL accumulate into a conflict unless the political differences in the US and China go away.

China and the US have two entirely dissimilar forms of government, and this doesn't only put Beijing at odds with the US, it puts them at odds with the other major economies in the world.

Even Reagen worked to improve relations with China, taking a state visit.

Yeah and that was with the hope that the Chinese could be prevented form joining the Soviets union in a larger political bloc.

It was statesmanship, it was due to necessity. It didn't mean that Reagan approved of China's government's actions.

They hate us because we have what they want in terms of power and influence.

Why would they hate us

For the same reason that the poor, stinky emo kid in the class hates the good-looking, rich, cocky jock.

Envy.

To suggest that China isn't envious of the power the US has would be ludicrous.

You're treating wealth like its something that nations fight over, not something that nations work together to achieve.

Wealth is only a byproduct of economic and political power, that really has nothing to do with it.

People don't achieve power through equal cooperation, they achieve it through domination. That is how it works in the world. The difference is, the dominance the US gained came mostly from soft power, economic and political influence in the world which aligned it with similarly-minded countries in the rest of the world, creating a sphere of influence which the US leads.

China doesn't have this, they want it. Russia wants it probably more so.

China historically hasn't been aggressive to other countries (well except Taiwan, India and Tibet). But their growing influence will cause conflicts, because their interests are different than Us interests.

American and Chinese cooperation has led to our mutual success, as over 50% of China's trade is with US allies.

Which is a bad thing right now given how their government is. We're creating a monster. We're throwing money at them while they throw reasonably-priced, lead-contaminated squeeky toys at us, lol.

But we also represent a form of government and a political philosophy that they don't want, that is :the antithesis to their vision of what the world should be like.

You use "they" a lot. Who is this "they"? The communist party?

China.

Regardless of the fact that not everyone in China thinks the way their government does, because it doesn't matter given the fact that the will of the Chinese people isn't reflected in the policies of the Chinese government, the other way around is true actually.

China is a threat, regardless of the fact that Chinese people are mostly good people. This is because their government calls the shots mostly, and is has shown itself willing to CRUSH any attempt at democracy made by the Chinese people.

As exemplified by the Tienanmen square massacre,

China's communist party has actually adopted many aspects of US government policy, including a freer market and non-government regulated prices.

Those are economic policies.

They are irrelevant given the fact that their political and fundamental mindset of the world is completely dissimilar from ours. They aren't a democracy, the people have very little say. Their country is controlled by the communists whose ambitions put them at odds with the US.

The powers that be in both Russia and China are totalitarian and authoritarian in nature.

Agreed.

Then quit touting the economic progress in China.

I think you put it up as a smokescreen.

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The US is a liberal democracy and has influenced and the supported the spread of democratic ideals :that have taken root in Russia's and China's neighbors, and even with people inside their country.

This pisses them off.

The democracy movements in China and Russia aren't serious enough to be threats to the regimes in power.

Apparently they are given the fact that both the Kremlin and Beijing have crushed and/or silenced all opposition in their country.

Apparently they saw it as a threat, apparently they think that dissenting views are something that should be feared rather than respected. They want power, they want the country to be united under the few people that control the government. Differing ideas are not giving equal credence, in fact, differing ideas and the people that have them are given bullets to the brainstem and have their organs harvested.

Hell, look at Russia, it and Belarus are the ONLY former Soviet Republics that haven't become capitalist, democratic, US-allies after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Russia has become capitalist, and to a degree a US ally.

Capitalist, yes.

Ally, absolutely not.

There are SOME similar interests, but Russia has made it clear that it has absolutely no desire to fall in line with the US, even in cooperation as long as it isn't completely necessary.

The moment the US employed military sanctions on Iran, Russia sells them surface-to-air missiles.

Russia's former sphere of influence consists of countries that willingly (and giddily) began to model :themselves after the US the moment they got independence from Moscow.

Agreed.

Yes, and you don't see that at to be a source of animosity at all?

Imagine if most of NATO (including Canada, who borders the US) all of a sudden jumped ship and allied themselves to Russians, who invited them to do so.

Americans would be incredibly pissed off, we might have invaded Canada by now. Russia might have invaded countries like Poland by now if it weren't for the fact that their military was in shambles after the fall of the Soviet Union.

It's no wonder that they hate us.

I agree that there exists a certain amount of hatred and distrust in a small sect of radical hard-liners. But to say that its all hatred and disgust is pure ignorance.

It's pure ignorance to discount the motives of the powers that be in Russia just because you have an overly optimistic view of the world.

Russians hate us, they have every reason to short of us fucking their sisters, which we essentially did by putting military bases in and cozying up with their former subject nations.

Former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin says:

"The Chinese government thinks China and the U.S. should develop a constructive relationship of cooperation"

Political rhetoric at such a level is simply just that.

The Soviets said the same thing about the US during the height of the Cold War.

It doesn't mean much, it's just words.

Also, do you have any sources for any of your claims? (BTW, you're proposing the theory, so the burden of proof lies on you to prove it. So far you've just thrown your opinion out, hoping that a spare bit of it will be right)

First off, your sources don't really fortify your claims at all. Secondly, what claims do you want me to provide sources for? That the Chinese want power? Pfft.

Meanwhile, I already provided sources for most of my harshest criticisms about China here:

http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/8325 60/2

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Well chinees are douchebags when it comes to making shit in sweatshops. Lol. That is the defective products. As for russia I don't really care unless they go back to communism.

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At 12/28/07 08:39 PM, Cheekyvincent wrote:

At 12/27/07 08:02 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Absolutely.

if china did hate America, wouldn't they be calling in the BILLIONS of debt that the treasury OWES china?

That article is misleading.

The US doesn't owe China money, this is an enormous misconception, or a simplified term for something that does not really mean that. The situation is that China continues to buy, and hold, our bonds even though we rack up an account deficit. They are purchasing our debt basically.

China CANNOT say "give us our money now". It doesn't work that way at all.

What they could do is sell the US treasury bonds they own on the open market at going rates (which the US may or may not buy). This would end up with them getting some of their money back, but it would make the price of the US dollar (and therefore the price of US bonds) go down rapidly due to the sell-off, which would reduce demand and therefore reduce the value.

This would do bad things to the US economy, enormous inflation most notably.

However, China would never do this because it would sabotage their own economy. China relies on the US economy and the American consumer market for their own industrial/export based economy to keep going. They depend on the continued low price of their artificially cheap products that are purchased in the US. They depend on Americans being able to buy loads and loads of Chinese goods for cheap prices.

If they sold off our bonds they own, Americans would stop buying Chinese goods because they wouldn't be able to afford as much of it, and there would be a recession in US imports, which would put a recession in Chinese exports. This would damage their economy, and stunt, if not reverse, their economic growth.

China has the ability to damage our economy, but we don't owe them money. And if they did use the bonds they own against us by selling them off, this would not only hurt them due to the direct economic repercussions, but the US would take intentional retaliatory measures.

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At 12/28/07 09:04 PM, MickTheChampion wrote: I can see why Russians would resent the West.

After the Cold War instead of going:

"God, you poor bunch, that must have been horrible... Have some aide"

We went:

"Haha, losers! Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah! We won!"

Hehehe...gloating ftw...
Ehm...anyways, why didn't we help them after they got done with their crazy ass "communist" dictators? We helped the Japs after they beat the shit out of us at Pearl Harbor (yes folks, I know it was a surprise attack), so why not help the Russians?

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[spam]Well at least Jesus still loves you[/spam]

But I think that China's Government hates America, but not the Chinese population

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At 12/29/07 06:20 AM, Kaspoogle wrote: [spam]Well at least Jesus still loves you[/spam]

But I think that China's Government hates America, but not the Chinese population

Well that's comforting, especially knowing the the government has more then enough power to keep the populace from deciding they love us. Then of course there's always propaganda if they want to make them hate us.

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At 12/29/07 02:26 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: This would do bad things to the US economy, enormous inflation most notably.

However, China would never do this because it would sabotage their own economy. China relies on the US economy and the American consumer market for their own industrial/export based economy to keep going. They depend on the continued low price of their artificially cheap products that are purchased in the US. They depend on Americans being able to buy loads and loads of Chinese goods for cheap prices.

yes thats true, 21% of its exports goes to the US, but, thats only over a fifth. Fine, it would fall out with america and maybe other friendly nations of america like japan but, it still would have atleast 60-70%, and its total exports value according to the cia factbook thingy, was 969 billion US$ in 2006, which would have increased this year. i would agree china wouldn't do as well without the US, BUT it could still thrive without the US. it can survive without america, but it still wants america, and we can see that because china did try to fix the exchange rate.

If they sold off our bonds they own, Americans would stop buying Chinese goods because they wouldn't be able to afford as much of it, and there would be a recession in US imports, which would put a recession in Chinese exports. This would damage their economy, and stunt, if not reverse, their economic growth.

true, and then indias economy would boom, but china does export to other countries

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At 12/29/07 08:57 AM, Cheekyvincent wrote: yes thats true, 21% of its exports goes to the US, but, thats only over a fifth.

Yes, but exports make up a much bigger portion of their economy than our imports make up of ours. Trade is more important to their economy than trade is for ours.

In fact, trade with Mexico for the US is more extensive than with China.

Fine, it would fall out with america and maybe other friendly nations of america like japan but, it still would have atleast 60-70%

Um, not really, because much of their exports come from factories and companies that are invested in by US companies. If that ended, their exports to other countries would be disrupted considering much of their exports are simply goods that although they physically make, they make under employment from American companies that exploit cheap labor in China.

China is incredibly dependent on the US.

and its total exports value according to the cia factbook thingy, was 969 billion US$ in 2006, which would have increased this year. i would agree china wouldn't do as well without the US, BUT it could still thrive without the US.

Nope. In fact the US market, and US investors are probably the largest reason for their success.

true, and then indias economy would boom

Better that India's economy booms than China's. India is a democracy.

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China? Hell no. The People's Republic loves us, and we love them right back. Our economies are too intertwined to screw with each other, so we're very close pals.

Russia? They hate everyone right now; just picture Germany in post-World War I but with more crime and no one is even trying to make the government more open and democratic.

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I heard that we are in a cyber cold war with them and their EMP or electromagnetic pulse weapons which can wipe out a countries electonics system in a given radius.