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Synth guitars in metal section

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Billtog
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 27th, 2007 @ 12:09 AM Reply

I guess I'll go spend the thousands of dollars I have lying around to buy a guitar, amp, recording equipment, and guitar lessons. Thanks for opening my eyes!

Yes, I think you should get some recognition for your actual performance of the music. But does that make your song any better? Not in the least. If it was made by a kid running Finale in Windows 3.1 and it sounds better than Superman ripping it on a $10,000 guitar that was blessed by the Pope and knighted by the Queen of fucking England, it's still better. End of story.

Also, rule 10 at this topic. The audio forum is always exciting.


Hell yeah, motherfucker.

Bad-Man-Incorporated
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 27th, 2007 @ 12:22 AM Reply

Well, Well, Well. Welcome back Gore, ya drunken fuck. Man your rants are always fun to read.

For NG, synthed guitars are ok. To call it METAL..and expect a headbanger to really enjoy it like enjoying Cannibal Corpse, Slayer, Pantera, or hell even Metallica...for that matter...is reaching. I've quite liked some synthed guitar songs here, but always imagining the outcome, if a real guitar had been used. Some just make it easier to actually listen to. A lot of times, I just re classify, in my own mind, as "industrial". That helps. I know there are a shitload of subgenres of heavy metal, but last I checked...fruity loops wasn't included.

The thing that can be really dis heartening sometimes...
I know that a lot of people have come to NG looking for artists or songs, for projects outside of NG. I have known Ultimate Fighters, who have come here looking for metal stuff/artists to write entrance theme music, and when they check the top songs and find synthed guitars, they don't come back.

But for NG flash artists, I'm sure its great, it doesn't really matter to them..as they are used to it, now.
I've always appreciated the time people put into their songs, and let them know. The flip side, James Bond N64 would love some of the stuff here. haha.

Also, from what I understand...Lashmush uses real guitar samples, that were recorded in midi...and then tweaks the fuck out of them to get the chugging, palm mute, etc... but at some point, his stuff was made with a real guitar somewhere. Wasn't computer generated like flslayer.

Anyways...Metal?

Synth guitars in metal section


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EchozAurora
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 27th, 2007 @ 03:41 AM Reply

At 12/26/07 10:58 PM, GoreBastard wrote:
At 12/25/07 03:42 PM, jrayteam6 wrote: Do all guitar players just get drunk and babble dumb shit on these forums?
Welcome to the Audio Forum! hahaha

Indeed.

As much as I would like to throw weight to either side... considering I'm on both.. lol

I would rather talk about the idea it reminds me of..

Ya see.. here in a few weeks.. I will have a new computer.. I have the money, the parts selected.. all I need to do is order and wait. What this means.. is.. I will finally have a good computer for this garbage.

I have a friend that is a ridiculous metal guitar player.. who has an internal metronome that would rival a big-band conductor, and we have been planning a synth/metal/jazz fuzion band.

Dunno what that will sound like.. but I like the idea. He already has a track planned that lays metal over chopped up samples of The Exorcist, with jazzy percussion, and synth choirs.. damn scary. I've got all sorts of ideas.. hell... EVEN a synth/real guitar duel.

Speakin of which, jray... I'll have to get to you on that slayer teaching.. because I don't have the slightest clue of how to make it chug good... well I have ideas.. but nothing like you can produce.


At 1/16/12 03:08 AM, Xyresic wrote: EchozAurora: The SEXY Audio Mod.
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jrayteam6
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 28th, 2007 @ 04:42 AM Reply

Badman, I see where your coming from on Lashmush's samples, but Lashmush's stuff has no dynamics, I'm not saying my method is any more realistic, I'm just saying the reason I dont use samples is because ever chug sounds the same as the last, which I assume is the exact opposite of a really hot metal distortion setup. Slayer, with enough time spent can be 1,000 times more versitale and dynamic than samples. I think we'll never be eye to eye here, but if i write a symphony digitally is that less classical than a real symphony?

Echo, pm me and I'll show you how to crunch it.

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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 28th, 2007 @ 06:31 AM Reply

sent.

Yeah, you are definitely the best I have heard working slayer.


At 1/16/12 03:08 AM, Xyresic wrote: EchozAurora: The SEXY Audio Mod.
Check out soundcloud.com/echozaurora for more recent songs and DJ mixes!

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FlameMesial
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 28th, 2007 @ 07:52 AM Reply

Right, I think I've only read like halfway down the first page, and if somebody else has already said this, you have backup.

Programming takes patience and knowledge, instrument playing takes skill, patience and knowledge. When you program a guitar, it's like the majority of the NG 'Metal Portal' programming Acoustica Beatcraft or Drumkit From Hell (is that it?). First we want to the absolute perfect sound for drums that fit with the song, and then it takes patience to program it all.
I play drums aswell, but the reason why I don't usually play the drum tracks in my NG songs is because of sound quality (if I could seperate all the different mics in the mix and edit them seperately, every song on here would be recorded drum tracks).
We all understand the process of programming instruments, and it can only be harder when the instrument needs musical notes, but it also says to me that people programming synth guitars are too fucking lazy to pick up the real thing, and they're oblivious to the benefits.

For the guy who was mentioning that it takes 10 minutes to write the riff before programming, you clearly assume that we can just wing anything out on guitar over a drum track and call it metal. It makes no difference, except that careless people can get carried away with their synth guitar programming and execute what is impossible to play on a real guitar. Composition skills are exactly the same whether programming or not, the reason why I say both needs knowledge of music. Another thing that makes a difference, is that when the guitars are programmed, they are played perfectly. Writing a difficult song on real guitar is going to be difficult to record, hence the patience and skill.

Also, most synth guitars are just poor... I'm a perfectionist with music, and anyone like me will instantly detect a synth guitar, and for people like me it's just annoying to know that such a high scoring song was made with something that takes no significant form of skill, just something that anyone can do.

And don't fucking say "Programming synth guitar does take skill to get the levels, sound and equalization to make it sound real, and then we have to write the song aswell, whereas playing guitar is just hit record and play" because that's all fucking bullshit. Levels, tone, equalization is all the same with recording the real thing, except it's a little easier because IT'S THE REAL INSTRUMENT that has taken me four years to learn up to this point. Synth guitar programs are like video cameras, once you know where everything is, you know exactly what to do.
Call me musically prejudiced, but for me, a well written song can be completely ruined by using fake guitars.

Learning the instrument gives you so much more.

EchozAurora
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 02:01 AM Reply

True, but honestly, I do a bit of both... and I find it much harder to get the right sound out of synth guitars than a real one... but hell, I've got a natural aptitude for picking up instruments...

Let's just say both have their own strengths and weaknesses...

and whereas one part may be easy with the real thing, it can be a bitch with synth.. and the other way around.


At 1/16/12 03:08 AM, Xyresic wrote: EchozAurora: The SEXY Audio Mod.
Check out soundcloud.com/echozaurora for more recent songs and DJ mixes!

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jrayteam6
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 03:44 AM Reply

Flame, you just made yourself look like an idiot. First of all, if your going to expect me to read your novel, read mine. Dont come babbling your bullshit and slamming if your not going to read the post. In reference to this whole "it takes 10 minutes to write a riff" fucking a, lets pick apart my phrasing, I meant it takes ten minutes to INPUT A SERIES OF NOTES INTO A SEQUENCER.

Calling me lazy? Buy a drum mic kit. Cry me a river dude. I laughed out loud when you said that you were a perfectionist with music and that "anyone" like you could instantly detect a synth guitar.

Congratulations.

I guess since your guitar is so much more real then mine your music is more perfect too, huh. And the dumbest most 16 year old screaming statment was when you said

" takes no significant form of skill, just something that anyone can do. "

Fine dude, since you have a real guitar, and your a perfectionist, and your music is better and more perfect than me, and your 16 year old musical taste is so much greater than mine, and you have an understanding of metal - put your money where your mouth is and program somthing that sounds like my shit. Anyone? That no skill to program arguement is over.

Oh, and I uploaded a brand new track jabout 10 minutes ago just for you guys that think synth guitar sucks. I was thinking I shouldnt put it in the metal section because I dont want to make the real musicians mad by intruding their territory, but then I accidently clicked "submt" I'm really sorry guys.

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/1 14015

Now flame, you and your infinate wisdom - I expect a full critique, because someday when I get to be your age, I want to have the perfectionist intuition that you have. (I dont really try to write music i just use the randomizer)

DarKsidE555
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 06:51 AM Reply

At 12/29/07 03:44 AM, jrayteam6 wrote: a lot of Rule 10

Seriously...I laughed out loud as well when I saw your soo wise comment about age/skill and all that other stuff you let loose here so far. I only can say "concerned dogs bark". It's funny to read all your comments about how "long" it takes to program and all that bla bla bla. You're always whining about that it's soo much harder to program synth and all that kind of shit but did you ever realize how hard it is to actually play the real thing? No, because you're just comming from your side. "OH shit, bubhauah, it's soo hard to program my stuff, have teh mercy and if you say anything bad about it, I'm gunna lol at ya >;("

Why are over 70 % of all the NG AP songs synth programmed? Because it's hard? LMAO! Even 13 year olds can do it! ;)

Think a little bit about it oh wise and all knowing synth programmer!

"I laughed out loud when you said that you were a perfectionist with music and that "anyone" like you could instantly detect a synth guitar."

Sorry sir but it's the truth. Saying that a synth guitar can sound just like a real guitar is unreal...no it's just dumb. I like a couple of synth guitar tracks here on NG but it's not the real thing and never will be. Face the facts.

But you're totally right about that "this entire fight is dumber than all the "why dont hip hop artists get more respect?" thingy. Right...so why haven't you pm'd Rucklo then and asked for a lock of this thread then?

Oh yeah...I forgot...concerned dogs bark...


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Chronamut
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 12:56 PM Reply

rule 10 at this thread

and rule 12 for me!

muhahaha :P

Kor-Rune
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 01:19 PM Reply

I think this whole fight is just ridiculous.

Synth guitars will never be as impressive, will never sound real no matter how expensive or complex the programming is, and will never get the feeling of playing live or just simply jamming with the band.

They will probably get high ratings on a website, and are useful to those who don't have the kind of equipment or patience for a real guitar (although, it seems their patience is unlimited for programming a synth guitar on and expensive guitar replicating program or plugin, because apparently it takes a lot of effort too).

Really the advantages lie with the real guitar in the long run, but the composition can still be good. Granted it won't actually sound as good, but the idea will be there.


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bobsmovie
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 04:04 PM Reply

At 12/23/07 04:34 PM, jrayteam6 wrote: Sigh.

Maybe one day I'll post a video of how long it takes, how LONG it takes to program a fucking guitar part. You guys that just plug up and hit record. Congratulations. I wish it was that easy for all of us who dont play guitar.

Take the amount of time it takes for you to program a guitar part for a song... times that length by 4000 and you will have less time than it takes for somebody to learn to play guitar REALLY well. You can't seriously complain about the length of time it takes when you take into consideration how much time metal guitarist actually take just practicing.

I've got nothing against people using synthesised guitars... i think its a godsend for people who can't actually play them, but in MY opinion... a real guitar played well will always beat a synthesised guitar... because you just cant... and i mean CAN'T... properly convey emotion on a guitar through using a computer (no matter what length of time you spend trying). Because, unfortanutely, no matter what technology arises, you just can't beat an improvised solo from a Led Zeppelin song (to give just one example) with a synthesised guitar. You can't now and you never will be able to.

Having said that though, I'm not trying to suggest that you cant create a cracking track WITH a synthesized guitar.

CyriltheWolf
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 04:05 PM Reply

Guess what guys? I used to program guitar, because I couldn't play it... that idea blew because I didn't have the patience to program it properly, so I decided to learn guitar instead. XD

NemesisTheory
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 29th, 2007 @ 07:07 PM Reply

As long as it sounds good, who the hell cares, honestly?

Kudos for the people who go the extra mile for authenticity, but that doesn't mean anyone who uses a real guitar should get roses, praises and young virgins thrown at them just for playing a real guitar and not using synths; songs can still suck when a real guitar is used, and songs can still be good when synths are being used.

What matters is that you know how to use the tools at your disposal effectively.


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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 30th, 2007 @ 02:18 AM Reply

Uhh darkside, check your quotes dude, I didnt say that rule number 10 bullshit lol line. And if you really want to get down to quoting me, I pm'd Rucklo and asked him to keep this thread open, as you guitar players have yet to say really anything that backs up your arguement except that its not real in general. Why dont you go bitch at the classical guys for programming pianos, and trumpets, and claim that they dont make real classical. Its EXACTLY the same as me not recording myself playing a trumpet for any trumpet parts. Wow, yeah, I can play brass, and piano, and I marched snare and quads, but do you see me fucking recording it? No, I dont have a full orchestra at my disposal. Get off my ass because I dont have a real guitar. You dont see my roaming all of your submissions, looking for instruments that you dont know how to play and then calling you out on it do you?

This whole fight was about some synth guitar being in the metal section, if you dont think any synth deserves to be there, then fuck you too. You jackasses assume that we just plug some notes in and add some distortion. Fuck you.

Go program a symphony, can you metalheads do that? Do I think that makes you less of a musician? No. Fucking a, the metal section requires the most skill and the least amount of work on NG. Synthetic metal is a nice balance of both. No, I dont have to practice, but I have to make a computer do the same things that you can move your palm a 10th of an inch in order to achieve. Does my synth sound like shit? No. Do I upload single channels of Slayer? No.

Stop generalizing it.

Oh and darkside, your inability to detect sarcasm isnt my problem. Anyone knows whats real and whats not, on most instrumets for that matter. That was my entire point. Stop picking apart my phrasing. I mean, if you really want to get technical, all you deal with is drums and guitar. You practice, you record, you master your done. Wow. Two instuments. Some of you purists are as boring as you are stereotypical.

My whole point is that if your concerned about scores, you may as well go somewhere where your real guitar is elevated, because here, your just another dude who plays guitar with some recording software, as I'm just another dude who plays piano and percussion with an understanding of symphonic metal with some sequencing software.

jarrydn
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 30th, 2007 @ 08:38 AM Reply

Meh, I'm with jayray.

Billtog
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 30th, 2007 @ 04:29 PM Reply

At 12/30/07 08:38 AM, jarrydn wrote: Meh, I'm with jayray.

As am I. This whole argument is fucking stupid.


Hell yeah, motherfucker.

GoreBastard
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 30th, 2007 @ 07:57 PM Reply

All hail the drunken thread starter!!

n00bz!

And Badman, your comment was very wise indeed.
You are a true wise old man!!

lools.

Bad-Man-Incorporated
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 30th, 2007 @ 10:24 PM Reply

At 12/30/07 07:57 PM, GoreBastard wrote: All hail the drunken thread starter!!

n00bz!

And Badman, your comment was very wise indeed.
You are a true wise old man!!

lools.

You are lucky, I was gonna steal a pic of you from "gayspace" and use that, instead of Randy. And it would have been a draw, as to how many fuckers actually know who the fuck Randy is, compared to what the hell the Mighty Gorebastard looks like. A BIG PENOR. LOOLERGAGGER!!.


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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 12:25 AM Reply

I sees resistance to change, as long as no ones trying to pass synth off as real I don't really think should be be a problem.

GoreBastard
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 01:47 AM Reply

At 12/30/07 10:24 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:
At 12/30/07 07:57 PM, GoreBastard wrote: All hail the drunken thread starter!!

n00bz!

And Badman, your comment was very wise indeed.
You are a true wise old man!!

lools.
You are lucky, I was gonna steal a pic of you from "gayspace" and use that, instead of Randy. And it would have been a draw, as to how many fuckers actually know who the fuck Randy is, compared to what the hell the Mighty Gorebastard looks like. A BIG PENOR. LOOLERGAGGER!!.

Haha, that would have been funny shit if you edited a pic of me. You could have done the one when I'm playing my red Randy Rhodes Jackson... But I don't think my nose would fit on the screen :/

Rig
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 02:32 AM Reply

At 12/30/07 02:18 AM, jrayteam6 wrote: Why dont you go bitch at the classical guys for programming pianos, and trumpets, and claim that they dont make real classical. Its EXACTLY the same as me not recording myself playing a trumpet for any trumpet parts.

You have a good point. But it's not QUITE the same...

I think that the whole controversy is the "authentic" songwriting experience of the metal musician. There's nothing quite like getting together with some friends, setting up your stuff, and rocking out till you're covered in sweat and have a brand new track recorded. Proponents of this process WILL look down upon the composer who synthesizes a track just as good with (what they perceive to be) relatively little effort. Those kinds of people will always be there.
I do see their point. It IS harder to be in a band and practice and perform and compose together than it is to do everything by yourself with your computer. I'm not trying to offend you or anything, man - I've experienced both situations.
And about the classical reference. Metal and orchestral are NOT done the same way, and I'm not just talking about the obvious instrumental differences. An orchestral score is usually written by one person, who keeps on refining it and refining it until it's perfect in their eyes. They then conduct the orchestra, which plays everything according to said score - they don't question the composer's work. A METAL band, on the other hand, is a lot smaller. They write their songs by themselves as a group, and constantly re-write it as they go, mostly on the fly. They all work together as a team to create their music, while an orchestra just follows the leader.
See what I'm getting at? By writing metal songs by yourself with your computer, you're seen as cheating in the metalheads' eyes. Using a "fake" guitar only heightens it. Writing and performing an orchestral song with your computer, however, is no different than writing an orchestral song on paper and having a real orchestra play it (orchestral VSTs are ultra-real nowadays).

I may be wildly off topic, but I had to say that. :)


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CyriltheWolf
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 10:35 AM Reply

Rig you are my hero.

Phoog
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 11:38 AM Reply

At 12/31/07 10:35 AM, CyriltheWolf wrote: Rig you are my hero.

Seconded.

And also. Synth guitars don't sound anything like a real guitar, is almost every case.
It sounds more electrical. Electronic = not metal.
Something along them lines.

Although, have you guys heard this new "electro metal" thing? Well, it's not new, but, yeah. >:C

DarKsidE555
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 12:23 PM Reply

At 12/30/07 02:18 AM, jrayteam6 wrote:
Oh and darkside, your inability to detect sarcasm isnt my problem.

Same right at ya man. :)

I just wanted to give you a little taste of your own medicine with my first post. Tastes good, doesn't it? ;)

Anyways, I've never said something about composition in the first place. I've quite reviewed some synth guitar pieces around here and a couple of them are kick ass. Also, I don't see what argument the "real" guitar players have to provide here...Is it that hard for you to understand that synth guitars will never ever sound like a real guitar? It seems so. What I get from all this babbling is that you like to rant and swear a lot while trying to be wise and smart at the same time. Irony anyone? ;)

I'm also with Rig on this matter.

Soo in conclusion...

Do your thing, we do our thing

End of story!


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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 02:23 PM Reply

Darkside, look man, you can call me out and wink at that audience all you want. This doesnt bother me, you guys can think that I'm some hot headed synth programmer with FL and a passion for metal. The only reason I'm still fighting with you guys is that the majority of my stuff has some synth guitar in it and I'm basically defending my entire compositional career.

Rig, I see where your coming from, but I dont think the experience of the song is going to make somthing better or worse for that matter. It can be appreciated more, but realistically it doesnt change the way it sounds. If you didnt know that someone wrote a song on a coffee can with strings in vietnam, it wouldnt make the song any better. To second that, how many songs are here on the portal with a live drummer. A live bass? Yeah, so the same people that defend their precious metal do it all themselves as well. Dont get me wrong, I've been in several garage bands and all that - its fun, but can be a pain in the ass to finally get stuff laid down.

Still, this is going in another direction than you guys thinking that the music is better because it has a real guitar. I just dont want to be generalized.

Rig
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 02:48 PM Reply

At 12/31/07 02:23 PM, jrayteam6 wrote: The only reason I'm still fighting with you guys is that the majority of my stuff has some synth guitar in it and I'm basically defending my entire compositional career.
Rig, I see where your coming from, but I dont think the experience of the song is going to make somthing better or worse for that matter.

What I was saying is that by writing metal with your computer, you're seen as intruding on the "real" metalhead's turf. If synthesized metal appeared BEFORE the real-electric-guitar kind of metal, it would be the other way around. :)

Yeah, so the same people that defend their precious metal do it all themselves as well.

That's true. And once you synthesize a perfect-sounding guitar part, this whole issue will fade away. But face the facts - synth guitars nowadays don't sound authentic. You're trying to capture the unique tone of a guitar with a completely different tool. It just isn't as rock-out-able when you know that the composer was trying to emulate something else.

I've written a metal song completely on the computer, WITHOUT trying to emulate the guitar. It doesn't sound like a guitar at all. And you know what? People rock out. They know it's not a guitar, but it sounds heavy and raw anyways. I put the burden of trying to copy a specific sound aside, and the results are still metal-y.

I commend you for exploring the intricacies of Slayer and other guitar programs. But honestly, they don't sound like what they're supposed to sound...yet. In a few years, they'll catch up - and you can shine without being picked on. :D


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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 02:50 PM Reply

At 12/23/07 01:00 PM, GoreBastard wrote: Is anyone else pissed off that the majority of the more "popular" songs in the metal section are made with shitty fruity loops guitars? Why are these songs so popular when REAL guitarist get their work shit on as soon as they upload it.

In other words...

GET A REAL GUITAR YOU NOOBZ!!!

(drunken rant of the day)

i must say, i am dissapointed. GoreB. It's NEW YEARS. You should be drunk-r

loogiesquared
loogiesquared
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 02:51 PM Reply

At 12/27/07 12:09 AM, Billtog wrote:
Yes, I think you should get some recognition for your actual performance of the music. But does that make your song any better? Not in the least. If it was made by a kid running Finale in Windows 3.1 and it sounds better than Superman ripping it on a $10,000 guitar, it's still better. End of story.

I use Finale Notpad on Windows 3.1...thank you.

GoreBastard
GoreBastard
  • Member since: Feb. 6, 2005
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Response to Synth guitars in metal section Dec. 31st, 2007 @ 03:53 PM Reply

At 12/31/07 02:50 PM, loogiesquared wrote:
i must say, i am dissapointed. GoreB. It's NEW YEARS. You should be drunk-r

I'm working on that right now! haha