Israel & the Palestinians

[coycash]

This new 'road map' to peace between Israel and the Palestinians is a complete joke.

First of all, the Palestinians have no claim to this land in the West Bank or Gaza Strip.
Jews have lived in the area continuously for 3,700 years, while arabs (a.k.a the Palestinians) became the dominant population for the first time in the 7th century A.D. as a result of Muslim invasions.

Radical Islamic factions have continuously to this day said that they will not stop until the Jewish people are swept into the sea. They're simply rebuilding during the ceasefire, while taking away more Jewish land, in effect weakening Israel. Abbas is simply Arafat's puppet and his intentions the same, only unrevealed.

At 8/16/03 11:20 PM, coycash wrote:

First of all, the Palestinians have no claim to this land in the West Bank or Gaza Strip.
Jews have lived in the area continuously for 3,700 years, while arabs (a.k.a the Palestinians) became the dominant population for the first time in the 7th century A.D. as a result of Muslim invasions.

Yes, but Judaism is a religion, not a race. And bulldozing people just because they're Palestiians isn't nice either.

Radical Islamic factions have continuously to this day said that they will not stop until the Jewish people are swept into the sea.

and the Jews have said that they're not stopping until allthose Palestinians are dead or out of their country.

They're simply rebuilding during the ceasefire, while taking away more Jewish land, in effect weakening Israel.

..Jews, are demolishing Palestinians land for their colonies, not the other way around.

Abbas is simply Arafat's puppet and his intentions the same, only unrevealed.

Take a look at your promised land.
Your deed is that gun in your hand.
-Propagandhi.
Nothing's better than explaining politics in rhymes.

[EvilGovernmentAgents]

This is total bullshit. The Jews have a claim to the land. The Palestinians have claims to the land. CHRISTIANS have claims to the land. The result? No one wants to admit they're wrong. Instead, they just want to fight. All this "claim to Israel" is bullshit, plain and simple, and the road map to peace is never going to happen. The two sides have been having at each other for over a couple thousand years, nonstop. What makes anyone think that it'll change?

[Sonic-Youth]

The Jews can really set up shop. They were unwanted in Germany so they created this homeland where their people once lived (thousands of years ago) and because it is promised to them in the Bible, they think they have a right to it (not willing to share). The Jews are constantly settling in Palestinian territory.

Know what's funny? When the Jews were supposedly being persecuted by Germany, several ships of Jewish refugees were not allowed into the U.S. and some went back to Germany while others went to Britian. An excuse for a homeland.

They are trouble makers and are just plain unwanted.

[Slizor]

Jews have lived in the area continuously for 3,700 years

This claim is true, but gives an inaccurate picture. A few Jews have lived inthe area, before the 19th Century Zionist movement there were very few Jews in the area, certainly not the 4 million or so there are now.

while arabs (a.k.a the Palestinians) became the dominant population for the first time in the 7th century A.D. as a result of Muslim invasions.

Again this is wrong. I do believe that the Philistines (a semitic tribe, now known as the Palestinians) are mentioned as coming around the same time as the Jews....in the Bible.

Radical Islamic factions have continuously to this day said that they will not stop until the Jewish people are swept into the sea.

Radical Zionists have said they will not stop until they get the whole of "Greater Israel" (ie the area King David conquered.) Infact, the first Prime Minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion said that.

Abbas is simply Arafat's puppet and his intentions the same, only unrevealed.

And George Bush is being controlled by Martians.....Strangely enough my statement is as qualified as yours.

I would like to point out that the land Zionists claim is what was conquered by an ancient kingdom. It's like Britain claiming India, or the US.

[TheWakingDeath]

let's get a few things straight
Jew- some one who ascribes to the Jewish faith, (religion!) usually though not neccesarily a hebrew
Israeli- a citizen of israel
just so that people understand what i mean when i say israeli (yes most isrealis are jews, but not all jews are israelis) because a lot of people are getting things confused
while both parties share responsibilty for this unrest, it is my humble opinion that it is largely up to israel (and her supporters) to rectify the situation. after the holocaust, it was agreed by the un that jewish natives of germany could not return to their home country, blah blah blah, we gave them israel, we all know the story. the palestinian land alotted to them did not include the gaza strip. it can be logically expected that the palestinians, especially those who were displaced, would be angry, and some would react violently. if someone turned, say, half of the northern east coast over to, say, australians, or whoever, and i had to move, or else, i would be pissed. seriously. i would be one of those people with the bomb strapped to her back and a machine gun in her hand. this can be understood, and the need for the israelis to have a homeland can also be understood. however, the israeli military aggression, their arrogance, and the millions of us dollars going into the support of this country's belicosity has only further enraged those palestinians. the israelites need to understand and be grateful for the fact that if those palestinians hadn't been moved for THEM that they probably wouldn't have ever been born because their ancestors would have returned to germany and probably wouldn't have lived very long. they need to understand this and accept that they do not have the right to further antagonize there impoverished, and albeit hostile neighbor with their arrogance and greed. return the gaza strip, end the hostility and know your place. you have no more right, if less of a right, to the land you squat on then the palestinians. ok i'll shut up now

[coycash]

At 8/17/03 03:53 AM, punk_disease wrote: Yes, but Judaism is a religion, not a race. And bulldozing people just because they're Palestiians isn't nice either.

Actually, to be Jewish does not mean observing the faith of Judaism.

and the Jews have said that they're not stopping until allthose Palestinians are dead or out of their country.

Yes, they won't stop until all those Palestinians who continue to strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent women and children are dealt with and out of their country, hence the new fence.

..Jews, are demolishing Palestinians land for their colonies, not the other way around.

actually now they're ceding their colonies, while the Palestinians are doing nothing about their own terrorist groups.

[TheWakingDeath]

At 8/17/03 01:20 PM, coycash wrote:
Actually, to be Jewish does not mean observing the faith of Judaism.

actually it does. the race is hebrew, commonly and incorrectly referred to a "jewish". not all hebrews are jewish not all jews are hebrew. it's even in the bible for god's sakes. ew, the bible. and while we're at it, hebrew isn't even technically a race... technically.
why again am i bothering?

[Slizor]

Am I the only person who recognises that Israel was created due in part to Zionist terrorists?

And to be Jewish you do have to follow Judaism, not the crappy Israeli definition (one "Jewish" grandparent (same one the Nazis used actually.)

[coycash]

At 8/17/03 01:01 PM, Slizor wrote:

Radical Zionists have said they will not stop until they get the whole of "Greater Israel" (ie the area King David conquered.) Infact, the first Prime Minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion said that.

ah yes, let us all fear a "greater israel". let me remind you that "radical zionists" are not in control of Israel. this should be obvious seeing as how israel has not grown is the past 50 or so years, but rather shrunk. on the other hand, arafat, leader of the palestinians, is a known sponsor of "radical islamists"

Abbas is simply Arafat's puppet and his intentions the same, only unrevealed.

And George Bush is being controlled by Martians.....Strangely enough my statement is as qualified as yours.

hmmm, seeing as how Arafat still has all the power, it's hard to see how abbas could really do anything against his wishes... or why he would try...
strangely enough my statement is backed by logic...

I would like to point out that the land Zionists claim is what was conquered by an ancient kingdom. It's like Britain claiming India, or the US.

...maybe you could explain what this means...

Before Israel was created, the Palestinian people lived in great numbers in what was then called Transjordan. during hundreds of years living in the area, not once did they request a state of their own. only when a small sliver (about the size of New Hampshire) of land was given to Jewish 'infidels' did their unholy rage unleash.

Also, while many Palestinians do live in Israel, Transjordan (now Jordan) was closed to Jewish settlement. In the past, whenever Israel has ceded land to its neighboring countries (Syria, Egypt, etc.), it has always been followed by these countries waging war. hence their continued desire to weaken the state of Israel by shrinking it: to attack it.

clearly, a people as civilized (nail-bombing Jewish children, anyone?) as the Palestinians deserves a state of their own. No one can -or should- deal or bargain with someone so fanatic and disillusioned as these groups.

[Commander-K25]

At 8/17/03 03:53 AM, punk_disease wrote: and the Jews have said that they're not stopping until allthose Palestinians are dead or out of their country.

And the Palestinians have said the same.

[coycash]

At 8/17/03 01:26 PM, Slizor wrote: Am I the only person who recognises that Israel was created due in part to Zionist terrorists?

Ah, yes. Those damn Jews have always resorted to unprovoked violence. Clearly, through my broad statements and false propaganda I am the smartest man alive, knowing things that others are too blind to see. (<--Sarcasm-->) And now I will attempt to indirectly liken Jews to the Nazis! Observe my masterful technique of blurring reality...

And to be Jewish you do have to follow Judaism, not the crappy Israeli definition (one "Jewish" grandparent (same one the Nazis used actually.)

crappy Israeli definition... or stupid dictionary defintion?

Jew·ish ( P ) adj.
-Of or relating to the Jews or their culture or religion.

[Zalbun]

Ive been following this thuing since it started and obviously the biggest problem is Jeruselam. The way I see it, it could only workr out if the U.N. takes it over and regualted or if we nuke the damn thing

[Zalbun]

Oh...and also A jew is someone who ascribes to the jewish faith,according to the Reform,Conservative, and Reconstructionist movement. And also israel doesn't use the 1/8 rule. If i wanted to use the thing where any jew can move and get full citizenship because even though my fathers entire family is Jewish, my mom converted so the Frummies wouldn't count it.

oh yeah....Ill you anti-semites.....Piss off

[Slizor]

ah yes, let us all fear a "greater israel". let me remind you that "radical zionists" are not in control of Israel. this should be obvious seeing as how israel has not grown is the past 50 or so years

Not grown? Not grown!? Are you fucking mad, or ignorant?
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/EART/maps/isra-4.jpg
http://www.mideastweb.org/misrael.htm

on the other hand, arafat, leader of the palestinians

Is a highly disputed figure, who people claim is a sponser of Palestinian terrorism. This however, is an unproven assertion.

Abbas is simply Arafat's puppet and his intentions the same, only unrevealed.

And George Bush is being controlled by Martians.....Strangely enough my statement is as qualified as yours.

hmmm, seeing as how Arafat still has all the power, it's hard to see how abbas could really do anything against his wishes... or why he would try...
strangely enough my statement is backed by logic...

Actually it's not. Arafat has little power from his beseiged compound (it's still beseiged right?) And you still haven't proven that Abbas has the same (this assumes Arafat has non-peaceful intentions, another area of contention) intentions.

I would like to point out that the land Zionists claim is what was conquered by an ancient kingdom. It's like Britain claiming India, or the US.

...maybe you could explain what this means...

Well, Greater Israel is the land conquered by King David and the like, even smaller Israel was land conquered. You said yourself that the Jews moved there. Surely the people who were there before have more of a claim? Anyhow, the point. The modern state of Israel is founded on what was an old kingdom. Because it was an old kingdom you assert the right to the land. India was part of the British empire/kingdom, thus they have a right to the land.

Understand?

Before Israel was created, the Palestinian people lived in great numbers in what was then called Transjordan. during hundreds of years living in the area, not once did they request a state of their own.

Well actually they were promised a state by the British durig the First World War if they rose up against the Ottoman Empire.

clearly, a people as civilized (nail-bombing Jewish children, anyone?) as the Palestinians

Ah, you judge a people by the actions of militas in their name? I would then come to the conclusion that the Israelis are indeed a blood thirsty lot (random bombings, taking over parts of countries, etc, etc.)

Man, this is why I stopped doing the whole Israel thing. It's so boring having to "debate" ream after ream of cookie-cutter arguments riddled with inaccuracies.

[OpIvy420]

Maybe someone could just poison the water supply or dump radiation in the "Holy Land". Then no one would want to live there.

This war is never going to end, the way it's going. The higher-ups can agree and make peace all they want, but one man with a bomb tied to his back can break the truce all over again. There's a cycle of violence that just keeps repeating itself there:
One maniac blows up a bus, the zealot Isrealites bust up his village with tanks, an underground Palestinian organization blows up a dance club, the U.S. president goes over to Isreal and they make peace, then some other maniac ties a bomb to his back, and it all starts over again.

Why do they want this land so much? This is why religion shouldn't exist. It's just another division. Societies are already divided enough, by race, gender, sexual preferance, things that you can't change. One thing we as a civilization don't need is people killing each other over some poorly translated sheaperd's tales from 2000 years ago.

[coycash]

At 8/17/03 05:42 PM, Slizor wrote:

Is a highly disputed figure, who people claim is a sponser of Palestinian terrorism. This however, is an unproven assertion.

Yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night...

I would like to point out that the land Zionists claim is what was conquered by an ancient kingdom. It's like Britain claiming India, or the US.

...maybe you could explain what this means...

Well, Greater Israel is the land conquered by King David and the like, even smaller Israel was land conquered. You said yourself that the Jews moved there. Surely the people who were there before have more of a claim?

Actually I didn't say Israelis moved there. What I said, in fact, was that the Jews had been there conintuously for 3,700 years.

Well actually they were promised a state by the British durig the First World War if they rose up against the Ottoman Empire.

And just by coincidence the wanted the all the land Israel got, as soon as they got it. For now I'll ignore that their goal is to sweep the Jews into the sea...

clearly, a people as civilized (nail-bombing Jewish children, anyone?) as the Palestinians

Ah, you judge a people by the actions of militas in their name? I would then come to the conclusion that the Israelis are indeed a blood thirsty lot (random bombings, taking over parts of countries, etc, etc.)

Random bombings? Another coincidence that these "random" bombings turn up dead terrorists? Oh, and the taking over of parts of countries has always been provoked by wars, or the taking back of stolen land. I don't believe there is an etc. etc.

Man, this is why I stopped doing the whole Israel thing. It's so boring having to "debate" ream after ream of cookie-cutter arguments riddled with inaccuracies.

And obviously you know everything there is to know. I bow to you!

[Slizor]

Yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night...

What? My adherence to the innocent until proven guilty route? You of course prefer to assume that all anti-Zionists are guilty until proven innocent....or shot, or bombed....or bulldozed.

Actually I didn't say Israelis moved there. What I said, in fact, was that the Jews had been there conintuously for 3,700 years.

Well unless the world is only 3'700 years old then you implied that they moved there.

Well actually they were promised a state by the British durig the First World War if they rose up against the Ottoman Empire.

And just by coincidence the wanted the all the land Israel got, as soon as they got it.

Well no, they wanted the land they were living in. Strange that.

For now I'll ignore that their goal is to sweep the Jews into the sea...

So I should ignore the blatent Zionist expansionism? Actually you're already doing that.

Ah, you judge a people by the actions of militas in their name? I would then come to the conclusion that the Israelis are indeed a blood thirsty lot (random bombings, taking over parts of countries, etc, etc.)

Random bombings? Another coincidence that these "random" bombings turn up dead terrorists?

And dead children and dead mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts.......dead people!

Oh, and the taking over of parts of countries has always been provoked by wars, or the taking back of stolen land.

Yes! Of course, all of Israel's wars were justified. They've never done anything wrong. You are aware that taking over land is illegal in international law? Like Iraq took over Kuwait?

And obviously you know everything there is to know. I bow to you!

While you're at it could you fix my shoes. You're not good with your mind, I'll assume you're good with your hands.

[dudeitsallama]

At 8/18/03 07:38 AM, Slizor wrote:

Yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night...

What? My adherence to the innocent until proven guilty route? You of course prefer to assume that all anti-Zionists are guilty until proven innocent....or shot, or bombed....or bulldozed.

You're confused. Palestinians aren't anti-Zionist. They're anti-Israeli. Wanting to drive the Israeis into the sea has nothing to do with Zionism.

Actually I didn't say Israelis moved there. What I said, in fact, was that the Jews had been there conintuously for 3,700 years.

Well unless the world is only 3'700 years old then you implied that they moved there.

By that arguement, EVERYONE moved there. What the hell does your statement prove? That you can nit-pick everything someone else says? Good job.

Well actually they were promised a state by the British durig the First World War if they rose up against the Ottoman Empire.

And just by coincidence the wanted the all the land Israel got, as soon as they got it.

Well no, they wanted the land they were living in. Strange that.

Strange that the Israelis would want the same thing. It's not like those Jews deserve equal treatment or anything.

For now I'll ignore that their goal is to sweep the Jews into the sea...

So I should ignore the blatent Zionist expansionism? Actually you're already doing that.

Blatent Zionist expantion!?! What the hell are you talking about? Building settlments around Palestinian territories? That's not expantion. That called surrounding hostile people who are living on WITHIN ISRAELI BORDERS.

Random bombings? Another coincidence that these "random" bombings turn up dead terrorists?

And dead children and dead mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts.......dead people!

Those damn Israelis. The only people in the history of the world to cause civilian casualties in the course of defensive military operations.

Yes! Of course, all of Israel's wars were justified. They've never done anything wrong.

I'm glad that you agree.

You are aware that taking over land is illegal in international law? Like Iraq took over Kuwait?

So what if it's international law? Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right in every situation. Israel is a tiny nation surrounded by hostile countries. Obtaining buffer zones is a matter of survival. And, they gave most of that land back. Besides, you're from England. You have officially lost your right to criticize people for taking over land.

[dudeitsallama]

At 8/18/03 03:14 PM, BaKsHi wrote: words of infinite wisdom

Yes. Yes to everything. This is the most intelligent, unbiased view of the conflict I've heard yet.

[JMHX]

At 8/18/03 04:12 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

At 8/18/03 03:14 PM, BaKsHi wrote: words of infinite wisdom

Yes. Yes to everything. This is the most intelligent, unbiased view of the conflict I've heard yet.

I'll second that motion.

[Slizor]

What? My adherence to the innocent until proven guilty route? You of course prefer to assume that all anti-Zionists are guilty until proven innocent....or shot, or bombed....or bulldozed.

You're confused. Palestinians aren't anti-Zionist. They're anti-Israeli. Wanting to drive the Israeis into the sea has nothing to do with Zionism.

Now this is an example of a nitpick. And again is full of ignorance. Did you not read the bit about not judging an entire people by extremists?

See, the ignorance is continual!

Actually I didn't say Israelis moved there. What I said, in fact, was that the Jews had been there conintuously for 3,700 years.

Well unless the world is only 3'700 years old then you implied that they moved there.

By that arguement, EVERYONE moved there.

Indeed. Which is my point, just because Jews lived in Israel thousands of years ago does not mean they have a right to it now. Or we would get into very very strange ideas about who deserves what in the world.

And just by coincidence the wanted the all the land Israel got, as soon as they got it.

Well no, they wanted the land they were living in. Strange that.

Strange that the Israelis would want the same thing.

Well no, they actually wanted more and they wanted to bring more and more people in from other countries. That is not equal treatment.

So I should ignore the blatent Zionist expansionism? Actually you're already doing that.

Blatent Zionist expantion!?! What the hell are you talking about? Building settlments around Palestinian territories? That's not expantion. That called surrounding hostile people who are living on WITHIN ISRAELI BORDERS.

You mean the DISPUTED territories? And what about the Golan Heights?

And dead children and dead mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts.......dead people!

Those damn Israelis. The only people in the history of the world to cause civilian casualties in the course of defensive military operations.

Defensive? Hmm. I don't quite think that you can claim that they are defensive. I mean it's like me going out in the street and shooting someone and justifying it with "They could have come and shot me."

Occupation is not a defensive move.

Yes! Of course, all of Israel's wars were justified. They've never done anything wrong.

I'm glad that you agree.

Ah, you value my opinion. I do not value yours.

You are aware that taking over land is illegal in international law? Like Iraq took over Kuwait?

So what if it's international law? Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right in every situation.

You do understand the logical implications of this, don't you? And you saying that doesn't even mean that Israel was justified in doing it. So the point remains. Israel is in breach of international law.

Obtaining buffer zones is a matter of survival.

Heh, that's the argument Stalin used when taking Eastern Europe. And everyone knows Israel is heavily funded and supplied with superior US arms (not to mention the fact they have nuclear weapons.)

And, they gave most of that land back.

They gave the Sinai back after intense pressure.

Besides, you're from England. You have officially lost your right to criticize people for taking over land.

Well no, I haven't. A few things. I am not my country, I am not my country's history either, I just live here. Secondly, I'm Irish. See just because there wasn't an overt Irish Holocaust (the potato famine was caused by England) people forget NINA (No Irish Need Apply.)

[Slizor]

we offered to let palestine become a state years ago, buit yassir rejected. why?

http://www.fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html

[coycash]

Israeli Jews have shown they can live beside Palestinians.
Most Palestinians have shown they can live beside Israeli Jews.

The only problem is the radical Palestinians who want the Jews dead. Without their bombings of women and children, the Israeli Jews would not be blowing up suspect buildings. The Palestinian people, if truly in want of peace, must crack down on these murderous animals.

[Slizor]

Israeli Jews have shown they can live beside Palestinians.

No, Most Israelis have shown they can live beside Palestinians.

The only problem is the radical Palestinians who want the Jews dead.

What about the current rejectionist Israeli government? And the rejectionist stance of the USA (the USA is making progress actually.)

Without their bombings of women and children, the Israeli Jews would not be blowing up suspect buildings.

The IDF is aggressive. Surely you have heard the stories of little children being shot because they threw rocks.

The Palestinian people, if truly in want of peace, must crack down on these murderous animals.

What chance do the Palestinian people have on cracking down on unelected, unaccountable people with guns?

The fact of the matter is that the situation requires Israel to make concessions if they truely want to achieve peace. They must offer a fully autonomous state. This is the only way to get rid of the terrorists, the Palestinian people can not do shit, the IDF only enrages them further but the PDF (Palestinian Defence Force) would be able to.

Both sides are at fault, but the Israelis have the position of power.

[coycash]

At 8/19/03 04:57 PM, Slizor wrote:
The fact of the matter is that the situation requires Israel to make concessions if they truely want to achieve peace. They must offer a fully autonomous state. This is the only way to get rid of the terrorists, the Palestinian people can not do shit, the IDF only enrages them further but the PDF (Palestinian Defence Force) would be able to.

Both sides are at fault, but the Israelis have the position of power.

You honestly believe this? Why would the terrorists stop there? The radical groups will not stop until all the Jews are dead, and they've said so. And Israel is not being overly aggressive. They're adequately defending themselves by being preemptive.

Do the Palestinians honestly think they'll get a state by committing murder over and over again? This shows that either they don't really want a state (they just want to kill the Jews) or they're extremely stupid.

And please give the web-links a rest. You could find a hundred sites backing either side of the argument. I could right now go find some anti-Semitic site proclaiming that the Jews in Israel have underground concentration camps where they secretly slaughter Palestinians. give me a break.

[coycash]

At 8/19/03 04:57 PM, Slizor wrote:

Both sides are at fault, but the Israelis have the position of power.

You make it sound like the Palestinian groups are helpless kittens and not nail-bomb packing sociopaths killing women and children. Powerless? Not according to reality.

Do you honestly believe that if the Palestinian radicals simply stopped killing people, that Israel would continue to kill Palestinians? Probably not.
On the other hand, if Israelis suddenly stopped defending themselves, do you think the Palestinians would stop killing Jewish civilians? I doubt it. They are not at equal fault.

The Palestinians can live wherever they'd like. They can visit all the holy sites they want. But the idea of the Jews controlling part of it enrages them. It's just how they were raised. No matter how much you want to believe they think like you, they don't.

[dudeitsallama]

At 8/18/03 05:48 PM, Slizor wrote:

Well unless the world is only 3'700 years old then you implied that they moved there.

By that arguement, EVERYONE moved there.

Indeed. Which is my point, just because Jews lived in Israel thousands of years ago does not mean they have a right to it now. Or we would get into very very strange ideas about who deserves what in the world.

Same goes for the Palestinians.

Strange that the Israelis would want the same thing.

Well no, they actually wanted more and they wanted to bring more and more people in from other countries. That is not equal treatment.

The Israelis settled with the land they were given. The Palestinians rejected it and attacked Israel. Israel didn't take Palestinian land until it became apparent they had to to help prevent more attacks.

Blatent Zionist expantion!?! What the hell are you talking about? Building settlments around Palestinian territories? That's not expantion. That called surrounding hostile people who are living on WITHIN ISRAELI BORDERS.

You mean the DISPUTED territories?

Disputed means that two people have laid claim to them. If I say that I own Paris, that makes it a disputed territory. So by your logic, the French are expantionists.

Those damn Israelis. The only people in the history of the world to cause civilian casualties in the course of defensive military operations.

Defensive? Hmm. I don't quite think that you can claim that they are defensive. I mean it's like me going out in the street and shooting someone and justifying it with "They could have come and shot me."

That is the dumbest arguement you've made yet. No, it's not like that unless the person you shot had a gun pointed at you and was yelling, "I'm gonna shoot you!"

Occupation is not a defensive move.

Yes it is.

You are aware that taking over land is illegal in international law? Like Iraq took over Kuwait?

So what if it's international law? Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's right in every situation.

You do understand the logical implications of this, don't you? And you saying that doesn't even mean that Israel was justified in doing it. So the point remains. Israel is in breach of international law.

So? Who isn't these days?

Obtaining buffer zones is a matter of survival.

Heh, that's the argument Stalin used when taking Eastern Europe. And everyone knows Israel is heavily funded and supplied with superior US arms (not to mention the fact they have nuclear weapons.)

Stalin wasn't an idiot. Being heavily armed doesn't change the fact that you have a small population. Who cares about nuclear weapons? No one uses them anyway.

[goTricE9989]

lol, jews and palestinians need to get along and stop bitching

[JMHX]

At 8/19/03 10:18 PM, goTricE9989 wrote: lol, jews and palestinians need to get along and stop bitching

Well, that solves everything.