Pro vs. Anti Israel

[Ranger2]

NG, think of this as a poll.
I want to see what majority of people here are pro/anti israel.
So answer these few questions here please

1. What shoul the world do - Defend Israel or Destroy it?

2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

3. What was it, British Mandate or Palestine?

4. The wall surrounding Israel is - Necessary for defense or A wall to deprive Palestinians.

What are your answers to those questions?

(If you answer the first answer to the questions, then you're Pro Israeli, and vice versa etc.

[BornConsumeDie]

You ask some valid questions, which I will answer to my best ability,

1. What should the world do - Defend Israel or Destroy it?

To damn a country based on the belief of an outsider is always a bad thing to do...unless you are from the particular country you really have no say at all, all you can do is try to broker peace and let the situation resolve. Unfortunately this situation has been going for some time because of the eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth mentality of the people, peace is only going to happen for one country to be the "bigger man" so to speak, but to destroy a country and the numerous people because of a few is stupid. I would protect Israel.

2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

Suicide bombers are both terrorists and martyrs. Plain and simple. In my opinion they are terrorists because they take human life and their own in the process of trying to liberate or retaliate.

3. What was it, British Mandate or Palestine?

I don't know enough about this to form a conclusion.

4. The wall surrounding Israel is - Necessary for defense or A wall to deprive Palestinians.

The wall is necessary defense for Israel and the Israelites, that may deprive certain Palestinians but ultimately protects the citizens. While being a defense structure it is also a target for violence, a challenge to people, so in many ways the wall defeats its purpose.

I am for the protection of Israel because of their liberal democracy, relative free press and ulike the majority of the middle east it is a developed nation.

[Imperator]

I won't be answering them all, just because there are some I don't feel are necessary to answer.

At 12/8/07 09:42 AM, Ranger2 wrote:
1. What shoul the world do - Defend Israel or Destroy it?

How about just letting it alone? What happened to Live and let Live?

2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

Depends on their target. WWII Kamikazi pilots= martyrs.
Dumbfucks hitting public buses= terrorists

4. The wall surrounding Israel is - Necessary for defense or A wall to deprive Palestinians.

Little bit of both. If you look at where the territories split they form long "fingers" which prevents Palestine from forming a solid state.

I have zero problem with Israel. I just wish MY money wasn't going over there. They've fought XYZ wars already, and have trumped just about everyone. How much protection do we really think they need?

[Tony-DarkGrave]

im pro-israel

[zoolrule]

I dont think we should look at the current situation, we should look at how did we get to this situation.
If you look at history, Israel was attacked few times by the surrounding countries, and won.
After the victory (With big help of the US), they brought the lands back to, Egypt, and Jurden which they were attacked by, and made peace with them.
Same thing was offered to the Palestinians (which werent in such bad condition back then), but they were to arrogant, and they would accept anything but the whole land, they brought it on themselves.
even though they not-deliberately hurt civilians, The history proves that they do want peace.
Thats why i support Israel.
reason that people support Palestinians, is because Muslims around the world are doing inciting, in the media, school / universities (Muslim lecturers) etc ...

[Sajberhippien]

At 12/8/07 09:42 AM, Ranger2 wrote: NG, think of this as a poll.
I want to see what majority of people here are pro/anti israel.
So answer these few questions here please

1. What shoul the world do - Defend Israel or Destroy it?

They can make do on their own.

2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

First off, one can be both. I'd say most suicide bombers who kill civilians are terrorists, and that many also become martyrs. That said, someone blowing up a tank with their body isn't a terrorist, it's a soldier.

3. What was it, British Mandate or Palestine?

Palestine.

4. The wall surrounding Israel is - Necessary for defense or A wall to deprive Palestinians.

It's a violation of many human rights. But since when does the US (and Israel, but they're not as democratic) care about what the UN and human right organizations say.

(If you answer the first answer to the questions, then you're Pro Israeli, and vice versa etc.

Eh? I'm not anti-israeli, I'm anti-israelian politics.

[Sajberhippien]

At 12/9/07 08:54 PM, zoolrule wrote: I dont think we should look at the current situation, we should look at how did we get to this situation.
If you look at history, Israel was attacked few times by the surrounding countries, and won.
After the victory (With big help of the US), they brought the lands back to, Egypt, and Jurden which they were attacked by, and made peace with them.

They brought some of the land back and kept some.

Same thing was offered to the Palestinians (which werent in such bad condition back then), but they were to arrogant, and they would accept anything but the whole land, they brought it on themselves.

This is clearly a half-truth. First off, the palestinians never declared war on Israel. They were just caught in the middle between other waring nations. Land that had previously been their own had been given away to people they'd never met, and the first thing that people did was waring (although it was defense, that could be hard for the palestinians to see). So I don't think it was arrogance but rather some feeling of justice; It had been their land before and they wanted it back. Especially since what they were offered weren't their homes, it was basically some random spots of grounds.

even though they not-deliberately hurt civilians, The history proves that they do want peace.
Thats why i support Israel.

Oh, of course they want peace, everyone wants peace, but they don't only want peace. They want a land on their own of a certain shape to, just like the palestinians. I think most of the palestinians want peace, but they also want their homes.

reason that people support Palestinians, is because Muslims around the world are doing inciting, in the media, school / universities (Muslim lecturers) etc ...

I think it's more due to the fact that the ww2-alliance gave away a country that wasn't their own, and that the israeli state is systematically commiting grave crimes against the human rights.

That said, there are violent groups that don't respect human rights on the palestinian side to, of course, but it's not the state as such that commits them. I don't think the optimal solution is for Israel to go away, the ideal situation is where the countries and peoples can coexist. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

[Zorth]

At 12/8/07 09:42 AM, Ranger2 wrote: NG, think of this as a poll.
I want to see what majority of people here are pro/anti israel.
So answer these few questions here please

1. What shoul the world do - Defend Israel or Destroy it?

Defend. It's not because it's a christian holy land according to the bible. It's the willingness of the Israelis to defend it. They won a war in six days. They were outnumbered three to one. They fought of several armies in SIX DAYS. They are willing to defend it to the death.

2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

My opinion: terrorists. They try to terrorize people as a method of warfare. Even though they claim it's not terrorism, its jihad, its terrorism.

3. What was it, British Mandate or Palestine?

4. The wall surrounding Israel is - Necessary for defense or A wall to deprive Palestinians.

If terrorists would try to make an reasonable agreement and stop attacking Israel, the defences might not be so strict. That will probably never happen, but the walls are necessary to protect it's borders from threats. It's not by any means to deprive palestinians. The Israelis don't hate them, they want peace. Border defences are for protection, not deprivation.

What are your answers to those questions?

(If you answer the first answer to the questions, then you're Pro Israeli, and vice versa etc.

[Vert]

At 12/8/07 09:42 AM, Ranger2 wrote: NG, think of this as a poll.
I want to see what majority of people here are pro/anti israel.
So answer these few questions here please

Sure, but I get the feeling you've simplified things too much. These are dificult issues that you raise that can't be simplified into mere "soundbites".

1. What shoul the world do - Defend Israel or Destroy it?

What exactly do you mean by defend? Defend it's (i.e., the goverment's) action? It's existence? I imagine it's the latter, in which case I'll say that, for better or for worse, Israel should exist. I don't think that merely "destroying" it's existence, which would be nigh impossible in any case, would solve anything. But I disagree strongly on most of the policies of the goverment of Israel.

2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

That depends. If a person, suicide bomber or not, attacks civilians targets with political objectives, then they are, by definition, a terrorist. Since many suicide bombers do attack civilians, these should be classified as such. BUT not all do so and these should be classified as something else, possibly something like a "irregular troop" or maybe a "freedom fighter" (MAYBE). I would not, however, call them Martyrs, since, quite simply, I'm not a Muslim.

Since I'm not sure just what percent of attacks that target civilians vs those that attack military troops, I'm unwilling to classify them as either.

3. What was it, British Mandate or Palestine?

I haven't studied the subject suffiently to give an answer I'd feel confortable with, so I won't answer.

4. The wall surrounding Israel is - Necessary for defense or A wall to deprive Palestinians.

Although it may help Israel help defend itself, it's effect on the Palestian people far outway, as far as I can tell, the advantages it brings. So I'll emphaticly say that I'm against the wall.

What are your answers to those questions?

(If you answer the first answer to the questions, then you're Pro Israeli, and vice versa etc.

Just so you have a frame of reference, I'd say that I'm neither pro, nor anti-Israel. I'm pro-peace and pro-ending-suffering above all.

[PantyWipe]

Im a Kahanist, so Im not only gonna cast my vote for Israel, but Ill hang their flag in here to brighten up the room.

[goldenmoon]

destroy israel as all the othe rmiddle eastern counrires HATE it

[Splintered]

:1. What should the world do - Defend Israel or Destroy it?

Tell it, "If you want to be a country, you get to play with the Big Boys, on your own." Let Isreal defend itself. They already have a half-decent military (Israeli Defense Force), weapons manufacturers (Israel Weapon Industries), and are picking fights with other countries (Lebanon). If they can do that, they can handle themselves.

:2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

You assume they have to fall in one or the other. I'd say that they're just troops.

Is it a military or civilian target? If you attack civilian targets, then I'd call you a terrorist, despite whether your a suicide bomber or not. Take the bombing of Dresden. The outskirts of Dresden was a military target. The inside of Dresden wasn't. The first attack was military. The second attack was unnecessary, and hit civilians. (IMHO) The first strike was a military move, and somewhat justified. The second was terrorism.

:3. What was it, British Mandate or Palestine?

Same with most people here. I don't know enough.

:4. The wall surrounding Israel is - Necessary for defense or A wall to deprive Palestinians.

A little bit of both. Walls have worked in the past. Line defenses haven't been that effective recently (Berlin Wall, Maginot Line). However, they can work in some cases (Great Wall of China). Or take Switzerland. Completely surrounded by mountains, and is a strategical nightmare to get in to.

[Zorth]

At 12/11/07 03:22 PM, goldenmoon wrote: destroy israel as all the othe rmiddle eastern counrires HATE it

So you're saying you are an open supporter of Middle eastern jihadist theocracies?

[zoolrule]

At 12/10/07 04:43 PM, Sajberhippien wrote: That said, there are violent groups that don't respect human rights on the palestinian side to, of course.

Respect human rights ?
About 10 years ago before the Palestinians had weapons, they were fighting israel with STONES. Do you think Israel violated human rights? When they fought israel with stones, there were NO palestinian deaths. even though they did suicide-bombings.
After they got weapons (some from Israel - they gave the pales' police weapons, and now they are fighting israel with these weapons), because they wanted the "land".
And when palestinians got weapons - Israel had nothing else to do but shooting fire with live ammunition.
And here we are blaming israel for "human right violations"
And john lennon was on drugs.

[Sajberhippien]

At 12/12/07 04:32 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 12/10/07 04:43 PM, Sajberhippien wrote: That said, there are violent groups that don't respect human rights on the palestinian side to, of course.

Respect human rights ?
About 10 years ago before the Palestinians had weapons, they were fighting israel with STONES. Do you think Israel violated human rights? When they fought israel with stones, there were NO palestinian deaths. even though they did suicide-bombings.
After they got weapons (some from Israel - they gave the pales' police weapons, and now they are fighting israel with these weapons), because they wanted the "land".
And when palestinians got weapons - Israel had nothing else to do but shooting fire with live ammunition.
And here we are blaming israel for "human right violations"
And john lennon was on drugs.

Two wrongs don't make one right. By for example bulldozering (heh, new word?) palestinian villages and building a wall that cuts palestinians off from their jobs, hospitals, and other necessities, Israel is gravely violating human rights, and causing deaths through for example diseases and even more increased poverty. Don't forget that this is the Israeli state; they are chosen in a somewhat democratic election so they have got the people's support in what they are doing. Hamas on the other hand, hasn't (what I know of) been having any military activity aimed at civilians since they got in power (and some year before that), so the palestinian terrorists may not be supported by the palestinian people.

You can't say "It's okay to ignore human rights, they started!". Human rights is something every human being should have, and if Israel just is defending itself against the evil palestinians, then they sure could skip violating those rights.

Also, I don't get what fighting with rocks has to do with anything. The fact that Israeli military in tanks killed people just armed with rocks isn't really in favor of Israel's side.

[Sajberhippien]

At 12/10/07 04:59 PM, Vert wrote:

2. Suicide Bombers- Terrorists or Martyrs?

That depends. If a person, suicide bomber or not, attacks civilians targets with political objectives, then they are, by definition, a terrorist. Since many suicide bombers do attack civilians, these should be classified as such.

Right on the spot!

Also note that regular military shooting civilians is also terrorism.

[zoolrule]

At 12/12/07 08:57 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

palestinian villages and building a wall that cuts palestinians off from their jobs, hospitals, and other

instead of using the ambulances for injured people, they use it to transport weapons, and its a fact.

:Hamas on the other hand, hasn't (what I know of) been having any military activity aimed at civilians since they got in power (and some year before that).

you know WRONG. hah, they were doing suicide bombing ALL the time.
After they got in power the terrorist-attackes stopped a bit because they were too busy fighting Fatah, and killing few civilians of their own.
Actually there were more palestinians death's in this "war" - than Israel have killed in a few years.
Not to mention that Hamas was shooting to KILL, and Fatah was shooting only to intimidate .

Also, I don't get what fighting with rocks has to do with anything. The fact that Israeli military in tanks killed people just armed with rocks isn't really in favor of Israel's side.

I said that before they were fighting Israel with weapons, they were fighting israel with ROCKS, back then when they were fighting were ROCKS, no "human rights" were hurt, and there wasnt any Palestinian casualties. Now that they got weapons, Israel gotta defend itself , its the only way.
*You shouldnt criticize Israel's acts, unless you got a better way of fighting guerilla, and im pretty sure you dont..*

[Sajberhippien]

At 12/12/07 09:17 AM, zoolrule wrote:

At 12/12/07 08:57 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

palestinian villages and building a wall that cuts palestinians off from their jobs, hospitals, and other

instead of using the ambulances for injured people, they use it to transport weapons, and its a fact.

Even if that has happened it does by no mean make it acceptable to deny the civilians the right to health (and life).

:: Hamas on the other hand, hasn't (what I know of) been having any military activity aimed at civilians since they got in power (and some year before that).

you know WRONG. hah, they were doing suicide bombing ALL the time.
After they got in power the terrorist-attackes stopped a bit because they were too busy fighting Fatah, and killing few civilians of their own.

Source me.

Actually there were more palestinians death's in this "war" - than Israel have killed in a few years.
Not to mention that Hamas was shooting to KILL, and Fatah was shooting only to intimidate .

I know this (although It's a case of definition; although they may have killed more, I think Israel is the cause of more people's death. That is only speculation, though).

Also, I don't get what fighting with rocks has to do with anything. The fact that Israeli military in tanks killed people just armed with rocks isn't really in favor of Israel's side.

I said that before they were fighting Israel with weapons, they were fighting israel with ROCKS, back then when they were fighting were ROCKS, no "human rights" were hurt, and there wasnt any Palestinian casualties. Now that they got weapons, Israel gotta defend itself , its the only way.

When do you mean? 'Cause I'm quite sure human rights has been violated for about as long as Israel has existed. I by no mean claim that all israelis are evil or supportive of these violations, but I do claim that Israel has had quite a few bad governments that hasn't given a fuck about the UDoHR.

*You shouldnt criticize Israel's acts, unless you got a better way of fighting guerilla, and im pretty sure you dont..*

"you shouldn't critizise Stalin's acts, unless you've got a better way of fighting Capitalism".
Oh, and I've got a pretty good idea here: Return the size of israel to it's original size, let the palestinians become a represented population within the country given a good self-rule, and share jerusalem (which is a major part of the fight) between the countries (or make it universal ground that doesn't belong to any country).
I'm quite sure the number of terror attacks would drop.
And it's not okay to "fight guerilla" by punishing (directly or indirectly) a whole population or ethnic group (which is what is happening).

And this is also an ethical question, that applies to both sides: Is it okay to ignore the risk of causing the death of innocents to protect your own people?
I, and most human rights organizations in the world, say no. Unfortunately, the Israeli government, Palestinian terrorist organizations, the US government, and random people like you appear to say yes.

[zoolrule]

At 12/13/07 04:56 PM, Sajberhippien wrote:

When do you mean? 'Cause I'm quite sure human rights has been violated for about as long as Israel has existed. I by no mean claim that all israelis are evil or supportive of these violations, but I do claim that Israel has had quite a few bad governments that hasn't given a fuck about the UDoHR.

Im glad you are quite sure, but you are wrong. Why do you think the "world" started supporting Palestinians lately? Its because of their inciting claiming "Israel are killing civilians, human rights blablabla..."
exactly the arguments you use, few years ago there wasnt any "human rights violation" because PALESTINIANS didnt have guns, therefore - Israelis didnt do a THING, No kills, no "violation of human rights", nothing. At that time, like i said before, Palestinians werent in a real bad condition, and they wouldnt accept anything but WHOLE land of Israel. they wanted to achieve that by getting weapons and fighting Israel, that brought them to this situation.

"you shouldn't critizise Stalin's acts, unless you've got a better way of fighting Capitalism".
Oh, and I've got a pretty good idea here: Return the size of israel to it's original size, let the palestinians become a represented population within the country given a good self-rule, and share jerusalem (which is a major part of the fight) between the countries (or make it universal ground that doesn't belong to any country).
I'm quite sure the number of terror attacks would drop.

Israel didnt declare war on the surrounding nations, Israel was attacked. Arabs lost - face it.
When the country of Israel was declared, Some of the Arabs living in Israel accepted it - some didnt.
The ones accepted it - are now living well as Arabs in Israel. The others - Were called "Palestinians" (Another inciting), so actually there isnt even a Palestinian nation. They are just Arabs, that it - Arabs.

And it's not okay to "fight guerilla" by punishing (directly or indirectly) a whole population or ethnic group (which is what is happening).

You still didnt bring any better way of fighting geruilla, again you only criticize.
Ok look at this situation - its a real situation that happens all the time :
A terrorist is hiding in a "innocent civilians" house, inside, (of course they support him). Inside that house there is a Weapons lab. If Israel plain wont bomb this house. Few minutes later that terrorists will shoot a Kassam rocket from this house, in that case - Israeli innocent civilians will die.
Of course the Israel would like it more if there was a way to kill only the terrorist, but there isnt.
This happenes few times a day, But Israel only attackes few, Because some of them may cause many Palestinians casualties.
On the other hand, The Palestinians AIM at Israelis civilians, but people i argue with like to ignore that fact for some reason.

And this is also an ethical question, that applies to both sides: Is it okay to ignore the risk of causing the death of innocents to protect your own people?
I, and most human rights organizations in the world, say no. Unfortunately, the Israeli government, Palestinian terrorist organizations, the US government, and random people like you appear to say yes.

Of course yes! I like that the most of the human rights organizations are so Trilililili lalalala weeeeeeee! our life is so happy we watch Teletubbies. I said it before, stop criticizing without giving a solution. its the only way. And its a fact that its working. The terrorist bombing have reduced significantly. And not because the Palestinians dont want to, its because Israel are stopping them.
Israel did few one sided cease fire. And what happened? You know the answer.
Wouldnt you lose the trust on the Palestinians ?

[n64kid]

At 12/13/07 04:56 PM, Sajberhippien wrote:

At 12/12/07 09:17 AM, zoolrule wrote:

It sounds like Sajberhippien has no clue about this topic. About the pales throwing rocks, the media never reported that israeli soldiers were fatally wounded by these rocks and that many of these rocks were smaller boulders. Israel NEVER started any war with the exception of a preemptive strike against missiles in Syria that were pointed at Israel. Yitzhak Rabin back in the mid 90s offered the pales 97% of the land they demanded and offered to make Jerusalem their capital. What happened? They REFUSED IT because it's not about land. They just want to kill off all the jews. I feel most people who are anti-Israel are really anti-jew. Israel should remain a Jewish state anyways because they need a homeland. Remember WW2? Remember WWI? What about all the progaganda from the middle ages till now? Muslims have over 50 countries where they are the majority, Jews have 1 country the size of Rhode Island. You people talk about human rights? Israeli enemies brought to Israeli hospitals get the same treatment as Israelis in the same manner based on need. Can you say the opposite would happen? Well I've never heard of such a case.

Anyone who is Anti-Israel is simply not for the righteous

[iiREDii]

What if I am not pro or anti? What if I think the government ought to mind its own fucking business and quit supplying both sides with murder money?

[fli]

At 12/14/07 02:23 AM, iiREDii wrote: What if I am not pro or anti? What if I think the government ought to mind its own fucking business and quit supplying both sides with murder money?

Perhaps the best way to describe my position too--
At most,

I don't agree the fashion how Israel got formed.
I agree they have a right to exist, but they got to see that their simultaneously denying another country a right to exist too.

[zoolrule]

At 12/14/07 04:49 AM, fli wrote: I don't agree the fashion how Israel got formed.
I agree they have a right to exist, but they got to see that their simultaneously denying another country a right to exist too.

What way? Way of getting approval from the UN, and UK to do a Jewish country 1/3 of Palestine?
And the Arabs doesnt want to give them even 1% of the land so they declare 5 wars, losing them all, and then whining?
stop believing the muslim inciting ffs.
they believe to their own lies.