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whatever feels right and whatever the law will let you do.

thats why they don't get any fun time childrens cartoons that look like they were made by a russian animation company in thailand (for some reason)

At 12/3/07 02:32 AM, fli wrote: Where do Atheists get them?
From living with people and doing what they do...

But.. where do those people get their 'moral/ethical' standards from?

As an Atheist, I think my morality was influenced by religion to an extent, but with the possibility of SOME biological morality, and I"m a secular one at that(No Buddhism or anything). I'm one of the few that doesn't bash religion.

At 12/3/07 03:48 AM, HeavenDuff wrote: robot, vegetable? not really, just what they are.

Ok then...

The real problem is that the world is leaded by people who can't think by themselves due to the fact that they are a bunch of people like that.

But why is that a problem?

The worst is that when a person just doesn't think about what he's doing, he tend to judge people a lot more, can't say why

Oh don't be silly. People who think judge just as much as people who don't. The thinkers just shroud their judgments behind logic and nicety.

but people with ideas and real opinions often get insulted or mistreated by those who follow the norm... and that is probably why I tend to be a little impatient with that kind of "robotic" persons.

People! We have a source of animosity! *fanfare*

then why did you cared when I said some people are vegetables if your gonna doubt about equality for all?

Equality was not my interest in either case.

I know what your trying to do... I know you don't really believe those things you say... you talk exactly like Socrate used to do :P

You're right. My moral code disagrees with some of the things I've said. It's not my morality that's under scrutiny here, it's the origin of it.

if it helps making a better world for everyone I doubt anybody could bring up any good points againt it.

Well what's a better world?

The fact that the points show you one of the many ways to make yourself a good opinion, which is great. I doubt that learning more, can make your dumber

Are you implying that learning is good (even great)?

I meant: How can you think without information?

You have a brain, maded just for that.

The brain thinks with the aid of information. Without information, there's nothing to think about. Therefore no idea is entirely your own or purely independant from your environment.

but the difference between doing everything like everybody without thinking about it and knowing why your doing something like everybody else, is very important.

I'll drink to that.

laws and inner peace

I don't believe in God at all, but I do believe in being a good person. I think it's an important lesson in life. Besides we are taught by our parents to be good people that is why we continue to do it. It's what we know to do.

Treat others as you want to be treated. No part of that needs god to be true. If you want to be left alone, leave others alone. If you don't want to be treated like dirt, don't treat others like dirt. Seriously its the golden rule, not the godly rule.

So being in general a good person for no benefit to the self is somehow detrimental? So I guess Christians aren't really good people, and the ones who do follow morals only do it because they are afraid of Hell

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote:

If you start a religion war.. well I'll start crying. Yeah.

For people who believe there is no higher power, no great authority, no God, etc, etc, why do you have morals? In fact, how did morality come about?

If you believe you just 'happened', then why the hell can't you do what you want, instead of following 'morals' set out by man?

I'm continuously confused about this, someone explain.

its simple -

everybody alive today is part of an unbroken chain of survivors going back thousand and thousands of years. "morality" if you will, is basically a little voice in our head telling us to do the right thing. if our ancestors we all self absorbed, self destructive assholes, we wouldnt be alive today. THERE YA GO.

the bible isn't giving you that, natural selection is.

At 12/3/07 10:15 PM, Lagatag wrote: So being in general a good person for no benefit to the self is somehow detrimental?

No. Not at all.

So I guess Christians aren't really good people, and the ones who do follow morals only do it because they are afraid of Hell

Christians are supposed to good things for the sake of doing them, not in fear of going to Hell.

For instance, I don't have to think about God every ten seconds to do the right thing, and it doesn't make me any less of a Christian. The people who do it in fear of going to Hell are either nervous people by nature, or are somehow scared that they aren't good enough.

At 12/3/07 10:21 PM, Xtesh wrote:

At 12/3/07 10:15 PM, Lagatag wrote: So being in general a good person for no benefit to the self is somehow detrimental?

No. Not at all.

Not according to the TC apparantly from my impressions

So I guess Christians aren't really good people, and the ones who do follow morals only do it because they are afraid of Hell

Christians are supposed to good things for the sake of doing them, not in fear of going to Hell.

For instance, I don't have to think about God every ten seconds to do the right thing, and it doesn't make me any less of a Christian. The people who do it in fear of going to Hell are either nervous people by nature, or are somehow scared that they aren't good enough.

Yes I know this, after all ~90% of America is Christian, plus I went to church and sunday school when I was younger. But still, if an Atheist by nature shouldn't follow a moral code, then by nature shouldn't a Christian only follow the moral code for the reward of getting into Heaven?

At 12/3/07 10:24 PM, Lagatag wrote: Not according to the TC apparantly from my impressions

But it's not what he thinks that matters so much as what your conscience tells you, right? Other people can think whatever they like, it makes no difference to you or me.

Yes I know this, after all ~90% of America is Christian, plus I went to church and sunday school when I was younger. But still, if an Atheist by nature shouldn't follow a moral code, then by nature shouldn't a Christian only follow the moral code for the reward of getting into Heaven?

Like I said in my last post, Christians are supposed to do it out of the good of their hearts. I have no idea what happens to people who do it in fear of going to Hell.

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote: For people who believe there is no higher power, no great authority, no God, etc, etc, why do you
have morals? In fact, how did morality come about?

morality was just sory of built in.

If you believe you just 'happened', then why the hell can't you do what you want, instead of
following 'morals' set out by man?

i don't follow anything set out by man, i just only do things that i don't think are "wrong."

the atheists are the same as the religionists in that they claim that they know something

this is a very foolish belief

At 12/3/07 10:44 PM, JackPhantasm wrote: the atheists are the same as the religionists in that they claim that they know something

Silly, aren't we all?

this is a very foolish belief

I really, really love how it's a leap of faith both ways.

I don't believe that religion is tied to good moral values. My parents raised me to be polite, friendly, ect, and I am. Even more importantly, I know plenty of religious assholes with bad morals.

nobody gets their morals from the bible NOBODY DOES

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Thats right GO SELL EVERYTHING because jesus says so

5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"

Kill everyone?

yeah go kill people because they arnt the same as you

A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!

Better keep your swords nice and bloody to please thy lord

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes, even his own life-he cannot be my disciple

JESUS COMMANDS YOU TO HATE

20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

God condones slavery

Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

i dont know about you but i would NEVER kill my own brother or son or any other family member.

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Rape is A OKAY so commands GOD

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

your god commands you to kill all gays

At 12/3/07 10:57 PM, Shawtey wrote: nobody gets their morals from the bible NOBODY DOES

Thats right GO SELL EVERYTHING because jesus says so

You took that out of context. He didn't say sell everything, he said to sell his possessions and to give to the poor. Which is exactly what a very charitable person does.

Kill everyone?
yeah go kill people because they arnt the same as you

Too bad that that was written in the form of a guy telling other guys to do all of that, and not God telling them to do that. Once again, you take it out of context.

Better keep your swords nice and bloody to please thy lord

Same as above. People like you really are a stain on Atheism.

JESUS COMMANDS YOU TO HATE

Give me the book, page, and verse. Because I'm fairly sure that He meant in relation to the devotion shown to Him, which would entail ove towards all.

God condones slavery

Not in Christianity. And I can tell just by reading it that it's from the Old Testament. Which means you should start yelling at the Jews, since that's their entire bible.

i dont know about you but i would NEVER kill my own brother or son or any other family member.

Are you stupid enough to think that one event that happened thousands of years ago is a regularly practiced thing by Christians? Yet again, you take things out of context to serve your prejudice.

Rape is A OKAY so commands GOD

Apparently the punishment involved(marrying someone who will very likely kill you for what you did) is nothing. And we have this fancy guy called Christ. He reformed Jusdaism into what it should be, AKA Christianity.

Christianity follows Christ's words and the Ten Comandments, so you have nothing on Christians(yet you say nothing to the Jews again).

your god commands you to kill all gays

At one time, he did. And not to Christians. To Hebrews.
Now you're taking a specific order that God gave to a select group of people as a rule that all Christians must follow because told ONE group of people to do at one period in time.

Good day, sir.

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote:

If you start a religion war.. well I'll start crying. Yeah.

For people who believe there is no higher power, no great authority, no God, etc, etc, why do you have morals? In fact, how did morality come about?

I tried asking this question in Paltalk before everyone turned out to be retarded, but I had to probe for an answer for like 10 minutes before I finally deduced atheist's morals come from social norms. Of course, I already knew that, but Mastermind didn't want to admit and would much rather said I "need" The Bible to tell me what's wrong.

You all need to face it, much of the western world uses Judeo-Christian philosophy, and you know it. Even if you think Jesus wasn't god you have to admit his impact on how we live our lives today.

You can't escape moral laws and virtues.

I would explain in detail, but I don't know how to translate some of the terms in my notes...

At 12/3/07 11:50 PM, Xtesh wrote:

At 12/3/07 10:57 PM, Shawtey wrote: nobody gets their morals from the bible NOBODY DOES

Thats right GO SELL EVERYTHING because jesus says so

You took that out of context. He didn't say sell everything, he said to sell his possessions and to give to the poor. Which is exactly what a very charitable person does.

yes he says to sell your possessions ... what have you given to chairty lately?

Jesus says you need to do 8 things to get into heaven accepting him as your savior is only 1

Kill everyone?
yeah go kill people because they arnt the same as you

Too bad that that was written in the form of a guy telling other guys to do all of that, and not God telling them to do that. Once again, you take it out of context.

a guy who was command and told by god

JESUS COMMANDS YOU TO HATE

Give me the book, page, and verse. Because I'm fairly sure that He meant in relation to the devotion shown to Him, which would entail ove towards all.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea rch=luke+14:26

Luke 14:26

God condones slavery

Not in Christianity. And I can tell just by reading it that it's from the Old Testament. Which means you should start yelling at the Jews, since that's their entire bible.

yet its in the bible... if only the new testament is for Christians why do Christians quote passages from the old testament?

i dont know about you but i would NEVER kill my own brother or son or any other family member.

Are you stupid enough to think that one event that happened thousands of years ago is a regularly practiced thing by Christians? Yet again, you take things out of context to serve your prejudice.

Rape is A OKAY so commands GOD

Apparently the punishment involved(marrying someone who will very likely kill you for what you did) is nothing. And we have this fancy guy called Christ. He reformed Jusdaism into what it should be, AKA Christianity.

the subject at hand is morals not truth or validation of the bible

Christianity follows Christ's words and the Ten Comandments, so you have nothing on Christians(yet you say nothing to the Jews again).

Yet Every Christian who has "morals" from the bible AND is against homosexuality always quotes the old testament verse about how a man should not sleep with another man as man sleeps with a woman

but oh wait old testament my bad thats the jew's book

but then why are Christians quoting it?

your god commands you to kill all gays

At one time, he did. And not to Christians. To Hebrews.

No actually that was one of like a billion laws set in the old testament

At 12/4/07 12:30 AM, Shawtey wrote:

yes he says to sell your possessions ... what have you given to chairty lately?

Not counting the work I did this weekend, I donated a good $80 out of my own pocket.

Jesus says you need to do 8 things to get into heaven accepting him as your savior is only 1

A Christian is not a man who says he a Christian, and then does nothing to help others. It makes as much sense as being a hardcore Buddhist and going on a killing spree. Same goes with Fred Phelps, because you are not what you claim to be unless you actually act like what you say you are.

a guy who was command and told by god

At one specific point in time. Which is not now.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea rch=luke+14:26
Luke 14:26

Now that I see it in it's context, I can assure you that He was using it as an example of not doing something unless you are fully committed to finishing it. Any other interpretation is laughable when you see the other examples(yes, examples, not laws or rules) given which help explain His message.

yet its in the bible... if only the new testament is for Christians why do Christians quote passages from the old testament?

Jesus was a reformer, you know. To us, the only incredibly important thing outside of the stories are the Ten Commandments. He did away with all of the needless laws(basically anything trivial or not needed was taken out). It is un-Christian to own a slave when one of the most treasured tenets is that all are equal in the eyes of God.

the subject at hand is morals not truth or validation of the bible

Again, I bring up Jesus being a reformer. He took out inane things that had no place in a righteous person's life(or from your perspective, a selfless person that happens to believe in God).

Yet Every Christian who has "morals" from the bible AND is against homosexuality always quotes the old testament verse about how a man should not sleep with another man as man sleeps with a woman

And? Those people are hypocrites. There is no such thing as a Christian who hates. Like I said above, you are not what you claim to be unless you actually do what what you're supposed to be does.

They are merely hypocrites with axes to grind in my mind, and although I wish they would stop, I can't do anything about it.

but oh wait old testament my bad thats the jew's book

You guys collectively never seem to knock them for it. Just taking notice.

but then why are Christians quoting it?

I don't know. Most of the rules of the Old Testament were abolished by Christ, so I can't speak for them any more than you can speak for Hitler. So we'll leave what others do these days out of this, unless you want to explain the actions of the Hutu participants of the Rwandan genocide while I cross-examine the motives of the LRA in Uganda.

No actually that was one of like a billion laws set in the old testament

But like I said above, Jesus was a reformer. He got rid of what was unnecessary in Judaism. Hating people based on what they are born with is one of them, just like how killing and rape is utterly unnecessary in a good person's life.

What I'm basically trying to say is that the logic you show towards these laws was something like Jesus' logic shown towards them. He thought that they had no place in Judaism, so He elected to remove that which was hateful, useless, or both.