Muslim Influence in Europe

[Euroc]

I know that Newgrounds is composed of a majority of individuals who are in countries that are free to think and express their own opinions without the fear of legislated penalty. I also try to stay open-minded about various religions and try to take a live and let live philosophy. I say that to state that I am not anti-anyone else, but I have heard rumors and I wanted to see if there is any validity to them, and I understand that this discussion may be a little one-sided.

I have read that Muslims in European Nations are forming segregated sub-societies and are even trying to get protection to enact and enforce their own laws in sovereign nations.

Is there anyone who has any personal experience concerning this? I have even read that many of these Muslim societies are 'off limits' to outsiders. Is there anyone actually living in Europe who can confirm or deny this?

In the United States there has been a small section of the Arian Nation that wishes to segregate and has asked the government for a 'white only' piece of property. This seems to be on par with what I have heard is happening in Europe, but I wanted to get some personal testimony or insider information.

Thanks!

[RedSkunk]

Good, different topic.

At 11/27/07 02:59 PM, Euroc wrote: I have read that Muslims in European Nations are forming segregated sub-societies and are even trying to get protection to enact and enforce their own laws in sovereign nations.

Is there anyone who has any personal experience concerning this? I have even read that many of these Muslim societies are 'off limits' to outsiders. Is there anyone actually living in Europe who can confirm or deny this?

I believe the problem in Europe regarding Muslim (largely Arab) immigrants is not particularly special. Immigrant populations have always tended to self-segregate initially, before acclimating and becoming a part of the larger society. The issue here is that some countries are finding 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants still not latching onto the host country's society / norms.

This was what the riots in France two years ago were. They were Muslim "immigrants" who were born and raised in France. I read a good article giving an explanation, can't remember much of it.

On the face value, the French "immigrants" were rioting because of poor living conditions or lack of jobs, eh? The article I read went on to say the real prob was that they didn't have any stake in their new lives in France. They lived in public housing and relied on governmental programs. You know that quote from William Levitt (creator of modern-day suburbs)?

No man who owns his own house and lot can be a Communist. He has too much to do.

You get an economic and personal stake in a country you've moved into, and you'll tend to become planted much more quickly.

Germany had a huge influx of Turkish and Arabic immigrants in the '60s. From my experience, they're better socialized than the French who were rioting, but there is still an achievement gap - in income, education, language skills, and relations between them and the majority.

I don't think religion plays a very large role at all. Religion (speaking religious extremism here) comes into play when the situation seems hopeless - ie. all of these problems are already compounding. They are self-segregating and lagging in income / education already before latching onto religion.

Solutions? Why does it seem the immigrant populations aren't adapting as quickly as seen in the past? Or are they going at the same pace? Thinking America and Irish, Italian, Chinese immigrants. I don't know.

[Euroc]

At 11/27/07 03:29 PM, RedSkunk wrote: I believe the problem in Europe regarding Muslim (largely Arab) immigrants is not particularly special. Immigrant populations have always tended to self-segregate initially, before acclimating and becoming a part of the larger society. The issue here is that some countries are finding 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants still not latching onto the host country's society / norms.

Good point... I suppose we have had our own problems with European immigrants melting into society. That would explain mafia families. I am fourth generation Austrian and I feel no ties whatsoever to Austria. Hell, I don't even know if I could point it out on a blank map (but I'd get close). So you think that given time... maybe a 70 years or so, we will not have a segregation problem? Or do you think the Muslim culture is too strong to allow a melting into American Society? To be honest, I would enjoy some Americanized versions of Muslim culture... or at least I think I would. I love mexican/american and chinese/american food... But I'm not sure if that is going to be able to happen.

[RedSkunk]

Before I forget. "Americanized versions of Muslim culture." Middle Eastern food rawks.

.
From what I've read and heard and thought about, the difference (and problem) between Europe now and America then is the nature of the host nation. Europe today is much more socialized than America 100-200 years ago. America also is much more focused on the individual. "Pull yourself up by the boot strings and make yourself a life." It's the American dream. When you've grown up in the ghettos surrounding Paris, don't own your own house, have a shitty job, live with prejudice, and live and interact with people just like you, you can get pessimistic, blame the Others, and turn to alternatives (religion).

I didn't think the Aryan comparison was valid at all, but maybe. In both instances, some of the disaffected populace are blaming the Others for their woes. How widespread in Europe with Muslims?

[Euroc]

At 11/27/07 04:03 PM, RedSkunk wrote: Before I forget. "Americanized versions of Muslim culture." Middle Eastern food rawks.

I have smoked at a hookah bar, but thats about as far as Middle Eastern Culture goes for me.

From what I've read and heard and thought about, the difference (and problem) between Europe now and America then is the nature of the host nation. Europe today is much more socialized than America 100-200 years ago.

But there is a push to become more socialized... do you think this would cause more disenfranchisement among immigrants and set up problems like those in Europe?

I didn't think the Aryan comparison was valid at all, but maybe. In both instances, some of the disaffected populace are blaming the Others for their woes. How widespread in Europe with Muslims?

Well, there are definitely areas that can be compared and contrasted. I was comparing the idea that two sub-cultures want to set up a segregated society within a diversified Nation. From the statistics I am familiar with, I think Muslims account for about 25 percent.

[RedSkunk]

At 11/27/07 04:11 PM, Euroc wrote: But there is a push to become more socialized... do you think this would cause more disenfranchisement among immigrants and set up problems like those in Europe?

I don't think there is a push for more socialization in Europe. Others can feel free to chime in. Eastern Europe has mostly gone radically laissez-faire after the iron curtain lifted. Some nations there have flat taxes, little welfare, etc. Libertarian wet dream.

France and Germany have aging populations, similar to the baby boomer phenom in the US. This puts more of a strain on the economy as more people retire. They're seriously reconsidering government - check Angela Merkel being elected prime minister of Germany. She's very conservative by German politician standards.

Well, there are definitely areas that can be compared and contrasted. I was comparing the idea that two sub-cultures want to set up a segregated society within a diversified Nation. From the statistics I am familiar with, I think Muslims account for about 25 percent.

As I said though, sub-cultures tend to segregate initially. Regardless of the group. Maybe a better comparison would be black nationalism movements in the US in the 50s-60s. There we have a disenfranchised (and not recently immigrated) minority group trying to break away. The comparison is still weak though.

Statistics about Muslims in Europe (and N. America) vary widely, but they aren't 25% anywhere. Here's a quick link I googled. As I said, estimates vary.
http://www.islamicpopulation.com/europe_
islam.html

[Euroc]

At 11/27/07 04:19 PM, RedSkunk wrote: I don't think there is a push for more socialization in Europe. Others can feel free to chime in. Eastern Europe has mostly gone radically laissez-faire after the iron curtain lifted. Some nations there have flat taxes, little welfare, etc. Libertarian wet dream.

I meant in the United States

:: As I said though, sub-cultures tend to segregate initially. Regardless of the group. Maybe a better comparison would be black nationalism movements in the US in the 50s-60s. There we have a disenfranchised (and not recently immigrated) minority group trying to break away. The comparison is still weak though.

Sure, but they wanted (and succeeded by some measure) to move back to Africa. I was trying to think of a group that wanted to form almost a seperate nation within a nation. Also, I cant think of any period or cases where the european immigrants tried to force the US government to allow them to keep their own laws. Sure, they would do it anyway and pay off cops, but at least it was illegal.

Statistics about Muslims in Europe (and N. America) vary widely, but they aren't 25% anywhere. Here's a quick link I googled. As I said, estimates vary.
http://www.islamicpopulation.com/europe_
islam.html

Thats quite a bit lower than what I have heard, or at least what I remember hearing.

[Tomsan]

At 11/27/07 04:42 PM, Euroc wrote:

Statistics about Muslims in Europe (and N. America) vary widely, but they aren't 25% anywhere. Here's a quick link I googled. As I said, estimates vary.
http://www.islamicpopulation.com/europe_
islam.html

Thats quite a bit lower than what I have heard, or at least what I remember hearing.

25% is way to much, but the percentages are higher then the earlier link when you look at a cities. About 13% in the large cities in the Netherlands.
My expectations are that, since muslim women on average have 3.5 kids, in the future this percentage will rise. They do not spread around the countries, they tend to stay in the cities for several reasons.
While the average west-european women only gets an average of 1.5 children this difference will surely be noticed in the near future. Especially when you consider that the average childbirth rate of western european women in the rural areas are way higher, meaning that in large cities the muslim percentage will rise fast. I think by 2020 in Amsterdam (now 13% muslim) the muslim population will be around 40-50% and the non-western population will be even higher.
such a rise in ethnic groups will probably also cause the migration of western-europeans out of the cities causing a snowball effect.

I wonder how many white americans live in atlanta for example, because when I was there for an afternoon this summer I didnt see a single one in the centre of the city.
I could imagine the great percentage of black people causes the white people to move out of the city.

[LordJaric]

At 11/27/07 04:43 PM, KemCab wrote: There's a very small, closed Muslim community in my area. They even go to mosque and everything. There are even sub-divisions of that, too. I'm not a part of it, mostly because I'm not religious, and partly because I don't want my name on an FBI terrorist database.

Yes becaus all muslims are terrorist.

sarcasm

[Sajberhippien]

At 11/27/07 05:23 PM, Tomsan wrote: My expectations are that, since muslim women on average have 3.5 kids,

Just a quick note: That has more to do with the wellfare of the society. If you look at catholic families in southern Africa, they've got plenty of children to.

[LithEUM]

At 11/27/07 04:19 PM, RedSkunk wrote: Sure, but they wanted (and succeeded by some measure) to move back to Africa. I was trying to think of a group that wanted to form almost a seperate nation within a nation. Also, I cant think of any period or cases where the european immigrants tried to force the US government to allow them to keep their own laws. Sure, they would do it anyway and pay off cops, but at least it was illegal.

A pretty good example of that is the separatist movement in Quebec in Canada. It has since lost a lot of steam but has been a consistent issue since the country has existed.

All the fuss about Muslim immigrants in Europe I think comes from the birthrate statistics that show they will eventually make up the majority of the population. Combine that with cases where Muslims want their beliefs/laws to be imposed on society and you have a situation where they may actually be able to accomplish those reforms.