Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

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At 10/15/07 03:55 PM, therealsylvos wrote:
Please enlighten me

Your mind is already closed. At least open your mind to the fact that your beliefs may be wrong. After you hear him out, you then have the right to agree or disagree.

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Actually, the US health system is better, kind of. I guess in the UK people of any social standing can get the treatment they need.

But in reality, there are only so many doctors, and the budget can only be so high (fuck Iraq), so what happens is very long lines, during which you die.

It's a shame.

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At 10/15/07 05:48 PM, SlithVampir wrote:

At 10/15/07 03:55 PM, therealsylvos wrote:
Please enlighten me

Your mind is already closed. At least open your mind to the fact that your beliefs may be wrong. After you hear him out, you then have the right to agree or disagree.

How do you know how open my mind is. i merely asked to explain his opinion.

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At 10/15/07 11:13 AM, ImmoralLibertarian wrote: Bullshit. My workmate, Rob's mother comes from Arizona. I went to School with a girl called Mhari whose family immigrated from Washington State. One of my best friends is half Philippino, half American and has a Scottish accent. Another friend of mine use to date a girl from the States...don't know where, i didn't like her so never got to know her.

First of all, I don't believe you.

Secondly, I know from my own experience that Americans living in the UK is common, yet Americans wanting to become citizens is not. Having Americans in your country doesn't mean they are becoming citizens and moved there fore a better life.

A lot of Americans live in other English speaking countries as well, that doesn't mean they become citizens or moved their with the intent and purpose of immigrating.

I could go on...you'd be surprised how many American accents you hear walking down my city's main streets...and no, their not tourists, we all can tell a tourist a mile off.

Lol that's ridiculous. So you have some magical ability to spot tourists huh?

Any American who isn't loud and doesn't skip around town laughing and smiling arm-in-arm with with his/her companions, is automatically someone who lives there permanently and is pursuing or is a citizen of the UK?

All tourists act the same huh? All tourists, irregardless of the fact people have different personalities, act the same and anyone else who doesn't act that way can't be an American tourist right? The American tourist stereotype is identifying a single personality trait that is exclusive to Americans, and is representative of all Americans who go on vacation I guess.

So you've gained a better understanding with two days than other people acquire during their whole lives? Cellardoor, you've made some arrogant statements in the past but i think this one takes the biscuit.

I think I have a better feel for the differing views in the UK compared to some people who have only lived in a single town their whole lives, yes.

Meanwhile, it's hilarious you claim this as arrogant, because you've just claimed you have the ability to spot American tourists, and differentiate them between Americans who aren't tourists. Arrogance is only arrogance to you if it's now your own right?

I forgot that British people can claim anything with certainty about Americans based on television and stereotypes, that's totally acceptable and valid to you. But an American that makes an assessment of British views based on having actually met them in several areas of the country is just arrogant for doing so right?

US healthcare is better in quality, it's just more expensive

It's better if you compare Private American healthcare with public British. but we also have private healthcare.

and doesn't cover everyone.

Oh well then, as long as those who can afford it are okay, that's all that matters right?

1) Most Americans are covered.
2) Most Americans who aren't covered are eligible government assistance.
3) Most who aren't eligible for coverage are that way because they are criminals or illegal immigrants (synonymous actually) and therefore don't deserve benefiting from a tax-funded system that they themselves don't contribute to.
D) Even if the US healthcare doesn't cover everyone, this doesn't matter, because essential care is not denied if people aren't covered. US healthcare is still so much better that regardless of the socioeconomic status of Americans, the nation-wide survivability from treatable diseases is still higher than in countries where everyone is covered by inferior medical care.

I know allot of Americans see the NHS as a socialist machine, but even though it was created by a Labour government (and Old Labour government...back when they actually were socialists) it was created by an outpouring of nationalism after WW2, not socialism.

It doesn't matter how it was created. It's still an example of the socialist, overbearing government policies.

The US is a highly decentralized country. The founding principle of our country revolves around small government and more individual responsibility and individual freedom for private parties, both companies/corporations and individuals themselves. Forcing Americans to pay into a system in which they can't even choose what doctor they go to, how much coverage they get, can't personalize their medical plans, thus basically taking the medical destiny out of their hands and into the hands of bureacrats... that's going to cause problems.

And, even the intended purpose of nationalizing healthcare would be counterproductive in the US, and would squander the huge advantages the US has in the quality of care, the survivability from treatable diseases, the chance to be treated quickly and effectively. This would all be squandered and destroyed if the government intervenes, squashes competition, and creates a nightmare with rationing and and budget restrictions causing shortages of equipment, lower frequency of operations, waiting lines etc...

I think more needs to be done to control costs a bit and to provide programs so that people who can't afford healthcare can get supplemental income to make it so they can. But this should be done within the free market. The government shot help private people afford PRIVATE insurance, so that the individual people still have a direct relationship with their medical providers rather than having to go through the government. But nationalizing healthcare and putting the whole industry in the hands of the government would be a huge fucking mistake.

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At 10/15/07 10:53 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

I could go on...you'd be surprised how many American accents you hear walking down my city's main streets...and no, their not tourists, we all can tell a tourist a mile off.

Lol that's ridiculous. So you have some magical ability to spot tourists huh?

Actually, when one lives in a place where there are a lot of tourists, one can spot a tourist a mile away. I'm from Martha's Vineyard, MA, and I can tell someone from mainland MA immediately (Cape Cod possibly not included), not to mention someone from a different state and even more so someone from a different country. Just the subtle characteristics, such as the way people walk, the style of dress, the way people take interest in certain things, the slight loudness of the way a person talks or carries themselves, how drunk they are; all make it horrendously obvious as to who is a tourist and who isn't. If you don't understand what I mean, you have obviously not lived in a place where there are tons of tourists.

Something to keep in mind is that Martha's Vineyard, as well as most places in the UK, is very rural. Most of the inhabitants know most of the other inhabitants. I'm sure in an urban environment it's much different. In fact, I can say that from experience: After spending a large amount of time in San Francisco, I still cannot tell who is from there and who isn't. This could largely be due to the enormous amount of Mexicans that have lived there since it was conquered.

Perhaps in a rural area with less diversities than San Francisco and New York City (which is the other urban area I'm well acquainted with) would be different. For instance Moscow or Warsaw, I'm sure that most Americans would stand out.

All tourists act the same huh? All tourists, irregardless of the fact people have different personalities, act the same and anyone else who doesn't act that way can't be an American tourist right? The American tourist stereotype is identifying a single personality trait that is exclusive to Americans, and is representative of all Americans who go on vacation I guess.

They don't act the same, but they all act similarly in that they all act differently from the norm. And this isn't even saying that everyone in a rural area acts the same, as those that I know from Martha's Vineyard are very much so individuals. It's like a gaydar. You can't explain it, but you can tell immediately who is a tourist and who isn't by the subtle complexities.

D) Even if the US healthcare doesn't cover everyone, this doesn't matter, because essential care is not denied if people aren't covered.

Sure. It just means that someone poor and suffering of a gunshot wound will have to wait for hours in a packed free clinic.

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At 10/16/07 12:13 AM, Tancrisism wrote: Perhaps in a rural area with less diversities than San Francisco and New York City (which is the other urban area I'm well acquainted with) would be different. For instance Moscow or Warsaw, I'm sure that most Americans would stand out.

If this part of my statement wasn't clear, I meant that in New York City and San Francisco, both which are ridiculously ethnically diverse, it isn't as easy to tell who hails from there and who has recently immigrated; thus it also makes it very difficult to tell who is a tourist (unless they wear the stereotypical camera and palm-tree shirts, or dress warmly in the summer).

This differs with a place like Warsaw. Poland, in case you don't know, has become extremely Polish since the end of World War II, and since the Warsaw Pact. Most Germans were kicked out at the end of WWII, and there hasn't been too much immigration due to the economic difficulties they've experienced since becoming suddenly capitalist states. Thus, most Americans would stand out all too much.

Not that there aren't exceptions. But there are very, very, very few.

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At 10/16/07 12:13 AM, Tancrisism wrote:

All tourists act the same huh? All tourists, irregardless of the fact people have different personalities, act the same and anyone else who doesn't act that way can't be an American tourist right? The American tourist stereotype is identifying a single personality trait that is exclusive to Americans, and is representative of all Americans who go on vacation I guess.

They don't act the same, but they all act similarly in that they all act differently from the norm.

I don't think so. Seattle gets loads of tourists from Asia and although the there are occasionally the stereotypical groups of 15-20 of them laughing and taking pictures, I'm sure I've spotted small groups and didn't think they were tourists.

And even then, people visit other countries on a temporary basis for reasons other than tourism. It's not like every single American who isn't wide eyed, wandering out a town is automatically a permanent resident or citizen.

D) Even if the US healthcare doesn't cover everyone, this doesn't matter, because essential care is not denied if people aren't covered.

Sure. It just means that someone poor and suffering of a gunshot wound will have to wait for hours in a packed free clinic.

First of all, at many emergency rooms, in every country, people have to wait based on the urgency of the situation. Secondly, if the hospital intentionally delayed treating a life-threatening condition because the patient couldn't pay, they would be breaking the law.

My dad is a doctor, an OBGYN, he delivers babies mostly. He is required by law to prioritize his patients based on their need. He can't even ask for payment or assess their insurance situation until after they are treated. My dad has to devote hours, sometimes weeks worth of work for free (usually on illegal immigrants), and I'm sure the ER doctors aren't any different.

They aren't going to fix someone with a broken arm who is paying, while someone with gunshot wound in their torso bleeds to death just because they can't pay. If they did, they'd be breaking the law.

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At 10/16/07 12:38 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: I don't think so. Seattle gets loads of tourists from Asia and although the there are occasionally the stereotypical groups of 15-20 of them laughing and taking pictures, I'm sure I've spotted small groups and didn't think they were tourists.

Did you intentionally disregard the majority of my post? As I definitely covered that area that you just attempted to refute. Go back and reread it, and then post again.

Or, if you don't want to, I'll explain that urban areas are different, and so are American cities (perhaps I wasn't that clear enough with you?). Seattle is a very diverse city, as well as the other two I specifically mentioned. So no, it's not going to be as easy to spot tourists as a place like Martha's Vineyard, which has a total population (when the populations of the six towns are added together) of about 10,000, and in the summer the population swells to about 100,000.

And if that seems like it's too obvious that we'd be able to spot tourists, I could say the same for my time living on Cape Cod. I lived in two towns in Cape Cod, one in Bourne, which I didn't spot any tourists in. This is largely because I lived on an Air Force Base (Otis). The second, Harwich, I did spot quite a few tourists in, even though the tourist population wasn't even close to MV's. And then when I went to the beaches in Truro, I could spot tons and tons.

And even then, people visit other countries on a temporary basis for reasons other than tourism. It's not like every single American who isn't wide eyed, wandering out a town is automatically a permanent resident or citizen.

You can tell who is a tourist over other things, usually. Some tourists are very respectful and modest, but you can still tell they are tourists. If someone is there for business, they tend to show the same level of indifference as most residents (often even more indifference), so they wouldn't be quite as obvious. But tourists are.

They aren't going to fix someone with a broken arm who is paying, while someone with gunshot wound in their torso bleeds to death just because they can't pay. If they did, they'd be breaking the law.

Fair enough. I've got nothing else to say about this at the moment.

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At 10/16/07 12:50 AM, Tancrisism wrote:

At 10/16/07 12:38 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: I don't think so. Seattle gets loads of tourists from Asia and although the there are occasionally the stereotypical groups of 15-20 of them laughing and taking pictures, I'm sure I've spotted small groups and didn't think they were tourists.

Did you intentionally disregard the majority of my post?

Um no.

As I definitely covered that area that you just attempted to refute. Go back and reread it, and then post again.

When I said Seattle I should probably have been more specific in that I have experience with tourists in the surrounding Seattle area which includes suburbs, and even some rural areas. I used to live in Everett (where Boeing, a huge tourist destination), which is 30 miles north of Seattle, and is RIGHT near farm land. Tourists don't behave that much differently there than they do in Seattle, in that I don't notice tourists everywhere except when they are at tourist attractions.

And you're not quite accurate about the idea that the UK is more rural, it's not. I think you're under the impression that it's like the Shire, with random shacks every 3 acres. And your point becomes moot when you consider that it's rare that Americans would visit rural places anyway.

You say that a city is more diverse, there are less chances to spot tourists, but I doubt many British people just stumble across Americans in the middle of the sticks as much as they are likely to see Americans in city areas.

You can tell who is a tourist over other things, usually. Some tourists are very respectful and modest, but you can still tell they are tourists. If someone is there for business, they tend to show the same level of indifference as most residents (often even more indifference), so they wouldn't be quite as obvious. But tourists are.

I don't think so. First of all, Immorallibertarian is pretending he can spot the difference between AMERICAN tourists, and therefore differentiate them from AMERICAN residents/new UK citizens. In order for his observations to be accurate, the only people who act that way would be tourists, the only tourists would be Americans, and the only people who don't act like idiots are therefore either not American, or not tourists.

They aren't going to fix someone with a broken arm who is paying, while someone with gunshot wound in their torso bleeds to death just because they can't pay. If they did, they'd be breaking the law.

Fair enough. I've got nothing else to say about this at the moment.

Bah

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At 10/15/07 10:53 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Secondly, I know from my own experience that Americans living in the UK is common, yet Americans wanting to become citizens is not. Having Americans in your country doesn't mean they are becoming citizens and moved there fore a better life.

I don't believe you, as i know from my own experience that you're wrong. You've said it yourself, you've only spent two months here. Whilst I've spent 22 years.

You've essentially called me a liar because what i've experienced in my life doesn't fall into your argument that surely there can't be a significant number of American ex-pats in Britain because the UK is so shit while the US is amazing.

Lol that's ridiculous. So you have some magical ability to spot tourists huh?

There's nothing magical about being observant. The clothes they wear, the things they buy and the tourist attractions they crowd around all make it easy to tell them a mile off.

Any American who isn't loud and doesn't skip around town laughing and smiling arm-in-arm with with his/her companions, is automatically someone who lives there permanently and is pursuing or is a citizen of the UK?

All tourists act the same huh? All tourists, irregardless of the fact people have different personalities, act the same and anyone else who doesn't act that way can't be an American tourist right? The American tourist stereotype is identifying a single personality trait that is exclusive to Americans, and is representative of all Americans who go on vacation I guess.

I didn't single out American tourists - other than saying it would be pretty difficult to not distinguish the difference between and American tourist and an American ex-pat. i was talking about tourists in general, be they American, Japanese, or English, as a Scot ( a Scot who lives near the shores of Loch Ness no less, probably one of the biggest tourist attractions in my country) whose nation's economy is partly dependent on them coming here I've gained a pretty acute sense of who they are.

There is no such thing as an American Tourist stereotype, only a Tourist Stereotype. How many ex-pat Americans do you think go around with a camera constantly taking snaps of what to other UK citizens is just an old building? How many ex-pats ask for directions to the city's Castle when you can actually see it from any point in town. "What, that's a castle? but wheres the battlements?"

I think I have a better feel for the differing views in the UK compared to some people who have only lived in a single town their whole lives, yes.

I've spent some time in the states, and will spend more time there in the future. I've been to New England, New York city, Washington DC, then another time i went to California. Now, i'm sure you'd agree with me there's a certain amount of difference between East and West coasts? But i wouldn't dare have the arrogance to suggest i know about those differences more than even some trailer park trash from Alabama who've never left their one horse town. Why? because they would have spent their entire lives watching American TV, talking to other Americans from both coasts and hell, maybe even reading a few books and magazines. They are totally immersed in American culture, and part of that culture is the internal differences between areas within the States.

Meanwhile, it's hilarious you claim this as arrogant, because you've just claimed you have the ability to spot American tourists, and differentiate them between Americans who aren't tourists. Arrogance is only arrogance to you if it's now your own right?

Again, what i said (or meant) was that it's easy to tell tourists from non-tourists. Telling an American Tourist from a Canadian, or Australian by looking at them would be nigh on impossible. And once you've identified them as tourists, it is them possible to separate them from the large amount of American ex-pats.

Oh, and on the differences between US and UK healthcare; I think each nation probably has the best system for itself. Much like the gun laws. I was just pointing out the the very best healthcare available in each country is probably more or less on par with each other.

Finally, I never claimed that the UK was a better place to live than the US...all you need to do is look at
the 2006 Human Development Index to see this is false. The UK is ranked 18 whilst the US is number 8. After all, i'm a Scottish Nationalist, partly because i think the UK is so shit and thus, Scotland would be better of out of it.

My main point raised was against your irrational belief that American ex-pats who've become British citizens are all but non-existent. Something i know for a fact to be false. After all, sites like this would be unnecessary if you were right.

But of course, you've already called me a liar with regards to my own personal experience of this so there's nothing more to argue about.

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Cellardoors right, the UK is shit. I'd much rather live in America. Howether There are many places I'd rather live than America.

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also

http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsperform ance/story/0,,1085249,00.html

6 years ago America was only ahead by two countries in the WHO.

I have a feeling Britains higher up now. ( I haven't got time to find an up to date link, have alook for yourself)

But anyway It shows that the US hasn't got the best Healthcare in the world.

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At 10/14/07 01:46 PM, PhoenixTails wrote: Socialism sucks.

Capitalism sucks.

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At 10/16/07 12:16 PM, tawc wrote: also

http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsperform ance/story/0,,1085249,00.html

6 years ago America was only ahead by two countries in the WHO.

Yeah but that's not gauging the quality of the care itself, its another analysis of the systems as a whole. Some of the factors that are being assessed are arbitrary and irrelevant if you consider "best" healthcare system to be the one that saves the most lives.

I have a feeling Britains higher up now. ( I haven't got time to find an up to date link, have alook for yourself)

The UK is higher up now in the studies I've seen. But its survivability from treatable diseases and quality of care is still a lot lower. Those studies are always different and have different ways of prioritizing and measuring for superiority. They emphasize things like "fairness", "financial efficiency" and things like that which are irrelevant if someone's highest priority is the ability to save lives first and foremost.

If you're gauging the quality and advancement of the actual healthcare, and the ability of the system to SAVE LIVES.

But anyway It shows that the US hasn't got the best Healthcare in the world.

Um, almost all of those countries score lower than the US in cancer survival. I'm not saying this is the only criteria for determining healthcare quality but it seems that in high-end medicine, in the ability to care for people, the US has the best healthcare.

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At 10/16/07 10:39 AM, ImmoralLibertarian wrote:

At 10/15/07 10:53 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Secondly, I know from my own experience that Americans living in the UK is common, yet Americans wanting to become citizens is not. Having Americans in your country doesn't mean they are becoming citizens and moved there fore a better life.

I don't believe you, as i know from my own experience that you're wrong. You've said it yourself, you've only spent two months here. Whilst I've spent 22 years.

So you're saying once again, you're suggesting that every American in the UK that doesn't act like a tourist is an expatriate and is there an a permanent basis or is a citizen?

You've essentially called me a liar because what i've experienced in my life doesn't fall into your argument that surely there can't be a significant number of American ex-pats in Britain because the UK is so shit while the US is amazing.

I don't believe you because I think you just claimed something to add credibility to your argument, yep. I'm not saying the UK is shit compared to the US, I'm saying that it is odd for Americans to make a conscious decision to become UK citizens. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is rare compared to the opposite.

Lol that's ridiculous. So you have some magical ability to spot tourists huh?

There's nothing magical about being observant. The clothes they wear, the things they buy and the tourist attractions they crowd around all make it easy to tell them a mile off.

And yet you automatically think they are all Americans? You automatically think Americans who don't act like that are in the UK specifically because they desire to live there permanently and want to become citizens?

That's where I think your "observations" are just ridiculous.

I didn't single out American tourists - other than saying it would be pretty difficult to not distinguish the difference between and American tourist and an American ex-pat.

And yet you don't acknowledge the fact that Americans who are not part of either category may still not appear like tourists? I was technically a tourist, yet as I'm sure you'll try and claim otherwise, I don't think people saw me and thought "AMERICAN!. In fact people were surprised when I would reveal it.

I got called Paki a few times. Then had to explain to people that 1) Paki is a term for Pakistani people, who are most Punjabi 2) I'm half-Arab, therefore not Pakistani 3) I'm not Muslim 4) I'm not an immigrant coming to steal your jobs, I'm an American tourist 4) No, I'm not a terrorist and it is not an oxymoron for there to such a thing as Arab Americans.

There is no such thing as an American Tourist stereotype, only a Tourist Stereotype.

And your assumption is that any American who doesn't fill that stereotype is automatically an expatriate...

I've spent some time in the states, and will spend more time there in the future. I've been to New England, New York city, Washington DC, then another time i went to California. Now, i'm sure you'd agree with me there's a certain amount of difference between East and West coasts? But i wouldn't dare have the arrogance to suggest i know about those differences more than even some trailer park trash from Alabama who've never left their one horse town. Why? because they would have spent their entire lives watching American TV, talking to other Americans from both coasts and hell, maybe even reading a few books and magazines. They are totally immersed in American culture, and part of that culture is the internal differences between areas within the States.

First of all, in my observation, the US is more diverse than the UK. Mainstream British people tend to be more homogenous than what can be considered to be Mainstream Americans which crosses more socioeconomic, demographic, and political boundaries.

My point is that based on the general consensus I seemed to get, Brits have an overwhelmingly negative and distorted view of American healthcare. They tend to defend their healthcare as more fair, and of better quality. That was my point.

I think that this is a larger a societal view, and therefore someone from a certain, tiny area of the UK who hasn't traversed the before mentioned differentiating boundaries does not have as much of a point of reference compared to someone who has travelled and spoken to different people, in different areas. Yes, even if the time this took place was around 2 months.

What you discount as arrogant, I claim to be a point of reference. If you spent a certain amount of time traveling the US, and it was in more frequency and over a longer time than I did in the UK (to account for population difference, size, diversity etc...) I WOULD believe that if you were honest and observant, you'd have a wider feel about what Americans think about a certain issue than some farm boy in Nebraska who hasn't left his tiny community his entire life.

Besides, I find it odd that'd you'd criticize me for that. Yet it seems that people in the UK whose only knowledge of Americans comes from TV shows, news, and movies tend to be confident in their perceptions of Americans.

Hell look at your fucking profile quote:

I don't hate Americans, I just dislike fat, religious, polluting gun nuts.

It seems you're alluding that you're not against Americans, you just happen to appear so because Americans happen to fill those criteria more so than people of other nationalities. Such a thing is ridiculous if context is applied anyway, considering some EU countries are fatter, religion is just not that less widespread in many other countries, and the US is no longer the largest polluter, China is, and Americans actually created modern environmentalism and spend more on pollution control than a lot of other countries in % of GDP.

It seems that your narrow view of what you see, and hear in your country about the US gives you enough confidence to say such a thing.

Oh, and on the differences between US and UK healthcare; I think each nation probably has the best system for itself. Much like the gun laws. I was just pointing out the the very best healthcare available in each country is probably more or less on par with each other.

Depends on how you define "best". If you consider a system to be superior based on its ability to successfully treat people then the US system is better. If you consider a system to be superior based on its supposed fairness and financial efficiency then the UK system is better.

Finally, I never claimed that the UK was a better place to live than the US...all you need to do is look at
the 2006 Human Development Index to see this is false. The UK is ranked 18 whilst the US is number 8.

You know, I've used that before to disprove things British people have said. But a higher score on the HDI doesn't automatically mean "better", especially when such a thing is relative to the criteria.

After all, i'm a Scottish Nationalist, partly because i think the UK is so shit and thus, Scotland would be better of out of it.

Do you think Scotland would score higher on the HDI if it was separated from the UK?

My main point raised was against your irrational belief that American ex-pats who've become British citizens are all but non-existent. Something i know for a fact to be false. After all, sites like this would be unnecessary if you were right.

The existence of a website doesn't mean that the people who make it represent a more than minuscule group of people.

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At 10/14/07 01:13 PM, barkskin wrote:

America has flourished under capitalism. It's still shit though.

Not a flambait, right.

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At 10/16/07 10:38 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Do you think Scotland would score higher on the HDI if it was separated from the UK?

I know I said I'd refrain from further debate because the basis of my argument is my own personal experience of people i know as a fact to be expat Americans becoming British citizens, something you refuse to believe.

But on this point, yes, I surely do. Just look at the HDI; Sweden, Iceland, Norway, Ireland; All nations with a similar geographical position, population, size and culture to Scotland. All in the top 5.