America a fascist state?

Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, wrote an article about fascism which appeared in Free Inquiry magazine -- a journal of humanist thought. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). He found the regimes all had 14 things in common, and he calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The article is "Fascism Anyone?," Lawrence Britt, Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. 6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[poxpower]

He forgot to mention the last ingredient:

Roasting people in huge ovens

He's just wasting his time trying to prove something no one will really believe anyways. I don't think that the americans are as bad because they already rule the earth, so they wouldn't need to start a war etc etc.

And as long as facist is just that, I don't care.

[JMHX]

Okay, we had one bad election in 2000 and suddenly we classify as a fascist nation? Bush may be rough around the edges, but he's not like Mussolini.

Who said anything about Bush?

[dudeitsallama]

At 7/28/03 06:12 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: Okay, we had one bad election in 2000 and suddenly we classify as a fascist nation? Bush may be rough around the edges, but he's not like Mussolini.

You're right. Bush isn't like Mussolini. Mussolini was a competent dictator.

The US does seem to meet all the criteria in the list except for the sexism and homophobia. That seems to be dying down. The US isn't a fascist nation, yet. I don't think it will be as long as people like Bill Maher and Howard Stern are allowed to have their say. But, government policies and the general attitude of most Americans are becoming increasingly fascist. If the trend continues, the US will be a fascist state within the next decade. I doubt that this will happen. It's much more likely that the blind nationalism will die down soon and things will, more or less, return to the way there were. But what if that doesn't happen? We have to face the fact that fascism is a possibility in the near future.

[TheShrike]

I'm not even going to talk about what's wrong with some of the other examples. Instead, we'll start off with the simple stuff.

At 7/28/03 12:55 AM, _crossbreed_ wrote: 5. Rampant Sexism

Doesn't fit.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Here's another that doesn't fit.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

And another.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

And another.

That's at least a quarter of the total argument down the drain (feel free to argue that), without even starting to truly debate it.

At 7/28/03 04:31 PM, TheShrike wrote: I'm not even going to talk about what's wrong with some of the other examples. Instead, we'll start off with the simple stuff.

At 7/28/03 12:55 AM, _crossbreed_ wrote: 5. Rampant Sexism

Doesn't fit.

Compare and contrast the number of female CEOs versus the number of male CEOs.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Here's another that doesn't fit.

"God bless America" "One nation, under god, blah blah blah."

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

And another.

How so?

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

And another.

MTV.

That's at least a quarter of the total argument down the drain (feel free to argue that), without even starting to truly debate it.

Saying "doesn't fit" doesn't really shatter those arguments. You could've explained HOW they don't relate to America.

[luckoftheirish]

o i hafta piss on this fire, that topic just makes no sense, do you see us attempting to conquer or repressing our people? no

At 7/29/03 02:55 AM, luckoftheirish wrote: o i hafta piss on this fire, that topic just makes no sense, do you see us attempting to conquer or repressing our people?

Yes. One might recall the dixie chicks and the total control of Iraq. There's your conquest and repression of people.

[luckoftheirish]

o dear god, you dont deserve what i want to say back to that,

[TheShrike]

At 7/29/03 01:49 AM, _crossbreed_ wrote:

5. Rampant Sexism

Compare and contrast the number of female CEOs versus the number of male CEOs.

So CEOs are an acurate measure of rampant sexism? Odd. I hadn't heard that, and I highly question it's validity as an accurate measurement.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

"God bless America" "One nation, under god, blah blah blah."

Did they say Jesus? No. God is a rather vague term. And if most of your population is religious, why would a simple word like god matter? America is pretty damn secular, and the christians most definately are in the lead right now. If we were all athiests or agnostics, we probably wouldn't mention god so much. Besides, God Bless America isn't the national anthem. That would be "The Star Spangled Banner". And as far as the pledge of allegance, then you'd already know there is a movement to replace or remove "God" from that. I favor "One Nation, under Canada".

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

How so?

You tell me why it does fit. I'm curious.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

MTV.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHaaaaaaaaaaa...

Ok, c'mon, gimme a real comeback this time, Mr Mary Manson Fan.

Saying "doesn't fit" doesn't really shatter those arguments. You could've explained HOW they don't relate to America.

I could, but I point these out because I do not see how they could possibly fit the description of America as a nation. If you would be so kind as to explain to me why they do fit, it would make it a lot easier for me to see where you are comming from.

[JMHX]

At 7/29/03 03:06 AM, _crossbreed_ wrote:

At 7/29/03 02:55 AM, luckoftheirish wrote:

Yes. One might recall the dixie chicks and the total control of Iraq. There's your conquest and repression of people.

We occupy Iraq because we're the bastards who started it. It'll be awhile before we leave it a shell of a nation as we did Afghanistan. Also, the Dixie Chicks used their freedom of speech, and the American public used theirs in a resounding "You just want to be JMHX."

[TheTio]

At 7/28/03 12:55 AM, _crossbreed_ wrote: The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

This one is definitely used, the American flag is emblazoned everywhere it shouldnt be, little American flags are put on desktops and even on cars.
This isnt totally related, but worthy of comment, putting the American flag around the head of Saddams statue demeaned the whole situation, it was the people victory and freedom from the oppression which suddenly became cheapened by one little flag, it then became G.I. Joe and Action Man save the day

:2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

This one happens all the time, political prisoners are held by America without charge, without trial and without hope for in some cases the period of their natural lives

:3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Can anybody say "Axis of Evil"

:4. Supremacy of the Military

How many TRILLIONS of dollars has been put into Military funding by your country?

:5. Rampant Sexism

Yes, women recieve less pay, men dominate the higher jobs, and America is still one of the most homophobic nations of the 1st world

7. Obsession with National Security

This one is undeniable, "Its a matter of National Security" has become a cliche for fucks sake its used to often

:8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Not so much this one, there is some of this one, but not enough to warrant this as a mark toward facism

:9. Corporate Power is Protected

Most definitely, the money to run ALL presedential campaigns comes from CORPORATIONS or the obscenely rich, new laws are being passed weekly to give the employer new rights OVER the employee

:10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Not so much this one, while labour power is slightly waning in America, it is still quite strong

:11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Once you get beyond high school this one just doesnt hold water in America, Intellectuals and the Arts seem to be respected in adult society

:12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

God yes, millions upon millions of Americans are in prison...also a coward hiding behind a badge can get away with almost anything, be it murder, rape or theft

:13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Yes this is true, the upper crust seems to be an old boys club, but show me an estabilshed country where this isnt true, it seems to be inevitable in a capitilism

:14. Fraudulent Elections

Your elections always involve smear campaigns, and you may have only had one blatantly fraudulant campaign, but the fact you swallowed it and gave him the seat of power for his ingenuity says more than enough

America may not have the front of a fascist state, but it certainly has a great many of the machinations of one running behind the veil

[TheShrike]

At 7/29/03 04:53 AM, TheTio wrote:

5. Rampant Sexism

Yes, women recieve less pay, men dominate the higher jobs, and America is still one of the most homophobic nations of the 1st world

True, but aren't things getting better? I'd say this symptom is near gone.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Not so much this one, there is some of this one, but not enough to warrant this as a mark toward facism

Exactly. The use of God anywhere in american lit is a product of a mostly religious society. Take away the religious, and this goes, too. There isn't any state church or forced worship, and christians take assault from everyone else here daily. And visa versa.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Not so much this one, while labour power is slightly waning in America, it is still quite strong

Cycles... it's going to be on the rise, soon.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Once you get beyond high school this one just doesnt hold water in America, Intellectuals and the Arts seem to be respected in adult society

Exactly.

Sooooo.... can these four be definitely proven, or not? I doubt they can, but i'm all ears.

At 7/29/03 05:31 AM, TheShrike wrote:

True, but aren't things getting better? I'd say this symptom is near gone.

Yes, things have improved since the last 100 years: women are actually allowed to get a job and vote but i'd say it'll take another 100 years for women to be treated completely as equals. Not just to give them the opportunity they deserve and the jobs they deserve but also to erase the discriminations attached to the stigma of certain jobs. (i.e. a woman, not a man, should be a nurse, secretary, lunch lady, and so on.)

As for those other arguments, I still think that true arts have been replaced by manufactured music that is psread on MTV and the intellectuals get no recognition comapred to hollywood actors.
Are church and state separated? Certainly not with Bush in office.

[TheShrike]

At 7/29/03 03:13 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: I still think that true arts have been replaced by manufactured music that is psread on MTV and the intellectuals get no recognition comapred to hollywood actors.

You're right. Manson does suck ass.

At 7/29/03 06:19 PM, TheShrike wrote:

You're right. Manson does suck ass.

Literaly? I'm guessing he does. He seems very sexually frustrated. Ha! The first thing that he said at his show Monday was "It feels good to be out of America! In America they're so god damned worried about what causes violence but then they want you to join the army!" then he played "rock is dead" good times.

Back to the original topic at hand. A lot of you seem to disagree that America is far from from being a fascist state. Perhaps. Wouldn't you say that it's on its way though? All the signs are there.

[TheShrike]

At 7/30/03 11:21 AM, _crossbreed_ wrote: Literaly? I'm guessing he does. He seems very sexually frustrated. Ha!

Perhaps he does in a literal fashion, but I was refering to the fact that his "music" is an affront to talented musicians all over the world.

...And there's also the fact that if it weren't for Mtv, you'd probably never had heard of him. And you say Mtv is dissrespectful of the arts? pffft... I'm no fan of Mtv, and quite honestly it's been about a year since I watched it for longer than 2 minutes, yet I think it's really funny how your only argument for the oppression of the arts is the source of at least one of your favorite performers. I don't think Mtv is being disrespectful of the arts because they air his music, I think they're being fair by letting him and every other half-witted performer have a shot.

The first thing that he said at his show Monday was "It feels good to be out of America! In America they're so god damned worried about what causes violence but then they want you to join the army!"

Heh.. I'm sure the same can be said about so many other countless numbers of countries on this planet. How very original and witty of him.

Back to the original topic at hand. A lot of you seem to disagree that America is far from from being a fascist state. Perhaps. Wouldn't you say that it's on its way though? All the signs are there.

No, we've established that at the very least four of those symptoms are invalid right off the bat. And the situation seems to be improving to me. You even said it's improving, yourself. So why not explain to me why you think things aren't improving.

[Alejandro1]

At 7/29/03 04:53 AM, TheTio wrote:

:12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

God yes, millions upon millions of Americans are in prison...also a coward hiding behind a badge can get away with almost anything, be it murder, rape or theft

2 million actually. I think you're overexaggerating though when you say that cops can get away with anything; I've never heard a white cop who killed a black man (while on drugs reaching for a weapon) not called racist. In fact, cops are abused every time they kill suspects; the media takes control of these situations and hypes them up; the cop is usually tried and sometimes sentenced. Here's another one: cop chases guy on motorcycle; guy on motorcycle crashes and is killed; people in community blame cop for doing his job; people start riots in the streets.

I think you better relook that one and tell me exactly why you think the US police force has unlimited power.

At 7/30/03 12:08 PM, TheShrike wrote:

Perhaps he does in a literal fashion, but I was refering to the fact that his "music" is an affront to talented musicians all over the world.

Please learn how to phrase an opinion, k? thanks.

...And there's also the fact that if it weren't for Mtv, you'd probably never had heard of him.

Yeah, I don't have cable, therefore I don't have MTV. How can I have heard of him on MTV if I don't even have MTV?

And you say Mtv is dissrespectful of the arts?

Yes.

pffft... I'm no fan of Mtv, and quite honestly it's been about a year since I watched it for longer than 2 minutes, yet I think it's really funny how your only argument for the oppression of the arts is the source of at least one of your favorite performers.

HA! MANSON IS ONLY PLAYED ON MTV 2! NOT "MTV" By the way, he was one of my favorite performers during the columbine days, when they refused to play him anywhere. By the way, MTV 2 plays "alternative" bands because they don't want to alienate the market of "alternative" youth.

I don't think Mtv is being disrespectful of the arts because they air his music, I think they're being fair by letting him and every other half-witted performer have a shot.

They're airing his music because of the demand for it. You sure as fuck don't see Immortal, Dimmu Borgir or Children of Bodom on MTV. They're not fair, they're airing the most popular artists.

Heh.. I'm sure the same can be said about so many other countless numbers of countries on this planet. How very original and witty of him.

Actually, most countries already figured out that it's the glorification of the military, the disponibility of firearms, the censorship of news and desensitization to human death that causes a violent society.

No, we've established that at the very least four of those symptoms are invalid right off the bat.

If by "we" you mean "you" then you are correct.

And the situation seems to be improving to me. You even said it's improving, yourself.

No, I said that it has improved, not that it's improving.

So why not explain to me why you think things aren't improving.

Fear and death are a part of your daily life. I don't mean it like "grandma died today" and "I'm affraid you failed your math exam" I mean it like the deaths of soldiers for reasons that hold no grounds and the utter paranopia that George W. Bush has you living in so that you'll agree with him invading other countries. He waves his terrorism flag and everyone sides with him. Then we realize that Iraq wasn't a threat and he switches his terrorism flag to a freedom flag.

At 7/30/03 12:37 PM, alejandro1 wrote:

I think you better relook that one and tell me exactly why you think the US police force has unlimited power.

http://truthout.org/docs_03/040903A.shtml

[Alejandro1]

At 7/29/03 03:13 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: Yes, things have improved since the last 100 years: women are actually allowed to get a job and vote but i'd say it'll take another 100 years for women to be treated completely as equals. Not just to give them the opportunity they deserve and the jobs they deserve but also to erase the discriminations attached to the stigma of certain jobs. (i.e. a woman, not a man, should be a nurse, secretary, lunch lady, and so on.)

That oppertunity is now. Women have the same oppertunities as men do; things have come a long ways. The only way for men and women to be completely equals is to remove the unfair advantages given to some groups in today's society (affirmative action).

Are church and state separated? Certainly not with Bush in office.

That's pretty broad. Please tell me how church and state are intertwined.

[Alejandro1]

At 7/30/03 12:48 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote:

At 7/30/03 12:37 PM, alejandro1 wrote:

I think you better relook that one and tell me exactly why you think the US police force has unlimited power.

http://truthout.org/docs_03/040903A.shtml

And how does this prove that the police have unlimited power? So they shot people with wooden slugs to break up a protest that was getting out of control; what's wrong with that?

[TheShrike]

At 7/30/03 12:42 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: Please learn how to phrase an opinion, k? thanks.

Well, that is what I did. You misunderstood, or pretended to misunderstand me the first time, so I clarified. If you would like it a bit more bluntly: Mr Mary Manso is a no-talent hack.

Yeah, I don't have cable, therefore I don't have MTV. How can I have heard of him on MTV if I don't even have MTV?

That doesn't mean that Mtv wasn't a key part of his superstar status. It was.

HA! MANSON IS ONLY PLAYED ON MTV 2! NOT "MTV"

Well, I hate to break it to ya, but his BREAK was on Mtv. Before Mtv2.

By the way, he was one of my favorite performers during the columbine days, when they refused to play him anywhere.

Except for Mtv.

By the way, MTV 2 plays "alternative" bands because they don't want to alienate the market of "alternative" youth.

No, Mtv2 plays the shit they don't have time for on Mtv because of all the damn sitcoms they have now. I've watched Mtv2, and it is just like pre-bubble Mtv. But for someone who never watches, you sure do claim to know a lot about it. In case you plan on trying to turn that on me, guess what? I said it's been more than a year since I watched Mtv for more than two minutes. I was in highschool with a lot of free time on my hands, once upon a time. So I do know about Mtv, what they do and don't do. Virtually no one had heard of Manson before Mtv gave him air.

So next time you listen to him, thank Mtv, k?

They're airing his music because of the demand for it.

The demand that they created.

You sure as fuck don't see Immortal, Dimmu Borgir or Children of Bodom on MTV. They're not fair, they're airing the most popular artists.

Imagine that... highlighting the popular stuf, and pushing the crap aside. Hell, even Newgrounds doesn't do that

Actually, most countries already figured out that it's the glorification of the military, the disponibility of firearms, the censorship of news and desensitization to human death that causes a violent society.

Really? Wow... I must have missed that collective press statement.

No, we've established that at the very least four of those symptoms are invalid right off the bat.

If by "we" you mean "you" then you are correct.

Of course, of course. And by "me", I also mean "anyone who can look at this objectively"

No, I said that it has improved, not that it's improving.

Ahh, but you did imply that it is improving. Go back and see for yourself. Well, we'll let it slip, anyway. No big deal.
Since things are going down the shitter, would you care to let me know how/why? Some sort of explanation is in line, here, and I am all ears.

Fear and death are a part of your daily life. I don't mean it like "grandma died today" and "I'm affraid you failed your math exam" I mean it like the deaths of soldiers for reasons that hold no grounds and the utter paranopia that George W. Bush has you living in so that you'll agree with him invading other countries.

If you mean "you" as a generalization of Americans, I'd just like to remind you that we don't all support him. Fear and Death a part of everyday life???? Holy shit! That's been going on at least since... what.. hmm... the dawn of humankind!

He waves his terrorism flag and everyone sides with him. Then we realize that Iraq wasn't a threat and he switches his terrorism flag to a freedom flag.

Again, more generalizations. "We" don't all "agree" with "him".

[Sonic-Youth]

How could it be with all the Liberal institutions? It is no more Facist than any other country if that's what would constitute a Facist state.

At least America isn't Communist.

[JMHX]

At 7/30/03 04:06 PM, simply_forgotten wrote: How could it be with all the Liberal institutions? It is no more Facist than any other country if that's what would constitute a Facist state.

At least America isn't Communist.

Agreed. America is still far from fascism. As long as Ted Kennedy is still existing in American politics, or any Kennedy for that matter, there can be no pure fascism in this country. Fill it up with John Ashcrofts, though, and you've come pretty close to total Nazism.

[FUNKbrs]

Damnit, why must Fascism always be a bad thing? Fascists (particularly Germany) can get serious work done in the areas of science and research. Fascisms make everyone happy, they just don't do it by kissing the asses of a bunch of minority interest lobbiests (ie, people who don't work for a living because they obviously have time to lobby). Imagine if everytime you felt depressed, you saw a propaganda that said "Smile, your building a new era of prosperity!". Yeah, it's purely there to motivate me to work harder, but hard work is necessary to make things WORTH having. Fascists always focus on productivity, prosperity and brotherhood. These are all good things. The trick is to keep the fascists from losing their accountability. As long as the government is kept honest, a fascism would be a great way to live.

BTW, I'm totally not kidding.

[Commander-K25]

Funk is right. The hard part is finding an honest, fascist dicatator that truly wants to work for the good of the nation.

[Sonic-Youth]

I hope my post wasn't misunderstood, Facism is good. It makes your country strong.

[FlyingAce]

At 7/28/03 09:52 AM, BaKsHi wrote: I agree 100% with Poxpower and Judge.

You just can't judge America because of Bush.

Ditto. And since when does starting a war make someone fascist? What's FASCIST about America are fucking sexual harrassment laws that regulate what people can say and do, but in the words of Southpark "It's not fascism because we don't call it fascism".