Free will?

[Drakim]

I want to talk about the free will argument.

From what I've heard, free will is used to explain why there is evil in the world. For God to allow us to have free will and control of our own actions, he must allow evil to exist. Evil, in this case, is simply a action of free will that is not geared towards God's morality.

Now, I think this argument doesn't hold up. I'll explain why.

I cannot erase you with my mind. It's beyond my power. Erasing people with your mind is not part of how reality works. If God exists, being omnipotent, he would be able to make it so that you and I could erase people with our minds. This however, as you can see, would create a world of chaos and evil. If anybody could erase anyone for not liking them, you could never live safely, and all forms of attempts to create control would utterly fail.

I think we can all agree that such a reality would be very bad, and we absolutely don't want such a world to live in. Now, ask yourself, does this hinder your free will? Does the fact that you cannot erase people with your mind limit your free will?

Now, look at the actions we can do in our world. We can eat, sleep, run, jump and much more. But we can also hurt, murder, rape and destroy.

Again, the free will argument goes that these bad things must exist for free will to exist, but I don't see why. Can anybody explain to me exactly why not being able to erase people with my mind does not remove my free will, but not being able to rape, murder and destroy would remove my free will?

If erasing people with your mind can be prevented (as God has done), why cannot rape and murder be prevented in the same way? That would still leave evil actions like lying, stealing and deceiving. But those don't destroy lives like rape and murder does. The victim can recover from a lie, but not a murder.

Wouldn't it be very easy for God to create a reality were, say, violence cannot be done to children? Would not being able to hurt children remove your free will? You could still lie, deceive, or generally be rude, but why does things such as murder and rape have to exists in order for free will to exist? We already see that complete evil isn't needed (there are quite a few evil things we can't do) for free will to exist, but I don't see why every evil we have in this world is needed.

Man, this was kinda hard to explain. Tell me if you don't understand and I'll try better.

Answers? Comments?

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Nice the millionth religious topic, kudos.

On free will its quite simple people are capable of doing what they wish period the fact that god could affect free will dose not mean that he dose or for that matter the deity of any other faith. In fact considering how many people have converted away from Christianity that kind of proves that "god" doesn't interfere with it.

[Drakim]

At 10/8/07 12:55 PM, GaiusIuliusTaberna wrote: Nice the millionth religious topic, kudos.

On free will its quite simple people are capable of doing what they wish period the fact that god could affect free will dose not mean that he dose or for that matter the deity of any other faith. In fact considering how many people have converted away from Christianity that kind of proves that "god" doesn't interfere with it.

Did you read more of the topic other than the title? :S

Because, I talked about this in the OP. God does not allow us to do anything we wish. I cannot erase you with my mind, because God decided to not let humans have that ability.

However, at what point did God decide that rape is part of reality? Remember, we are talking about God. He is supposed to be able to do anything. To create a world without rape, would be no biggie for him.

Why did he allow such great evil when lesser evil seems to have done the trick? He already limits some evils. Why not all of those that ends people's lives or destorys them?

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Know I read that I was trying to ignore it but since you are so keen on this idea.

We can't erase people's with our minds because its impossible just like we cant fly on our own power or break any other law of physics it has nothing to do with god. Think about it if people could do that than civilization would collapse. Free will means being able to do whatever's possible not being able to do any thing imaginable. To be able to turn thought into reality is to be a god and the bible as well as most religions clearly have a prejudice against people being gods (Greco-roman paganism or Buddhism aside).

[Sajberhippien]

At 10/8/07 01:47 PM, GaiusIuliusTaberna wrote: Know I read that I was trying to ignore it but since you are so keen on this idea.

We can't erase people's with our minds because its impossible just like we cant fly on our own power or break any other law of physics it has nothing to do with god. Think about it if people could do that than civilization would collapse. Free will means being able to do whatever's possible not being able to do any thing imaginable. To be able to turn thought into reality is to be a god and the bible as well as most religions clearly have a prejudice against people being gods (Greco-roman paganism or Buddhism aside).

But that's excactly the point! Who decided what is possible for us to do? God. God decided we it should be impossible for us to fly. Thus free will doesn't include that. Also, he decided it should be impossible to survive having your head cut of. But he didn't decide that cutting peoples heads of should be impossible, thus it is included in free will.

So free will is limited, and God has decided that killing each other should be inside the limits. Thus it's God's fault that people are killed.

[Sajberhippien]

Also, as a side note, free will doesn't work well with God's supposed omniscience. If he knows the future, it's already decided and we can't change it, and if we have free will and thus the ability to change our future, God can only know of the possible futures (and then I'd also be omniscient, because I can say that "Tomorrow, someone will either die or he won't").

[Tomsan]

this post cracked me up, what a ridiculous comparison.

[SmilezRoyale]

Drakim wants to know why Earth is not heaven if god can make it so; and why earth is earth.

[Sajberhippien]

At 10/8/07 02:22 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: Drakim wants to know why Earth is not heaven if god can make it so; and why earth is earth.

That is not correct. Read the post again. He's wondering why people say that God doesn't have a responsibility for what we do.

God is often reffered to as a loving parent. Then I'd make a comparission. If I was a loving parent, I wouldn't give my son a gun. And I wouldn't say to him "Okay, no you can kill people. But don't do that, it's evil.". But if I did, would you think that I have no responsibility? I just gave my son some free will. No harm in that.

[Drakim]

sign...some people can't even think the slightest outside the box without you holding their hand on the way.

For those of you that arguments about God allowing you to do anything within your phycial limits. That's just stupid. God made man, and God decided what man could and could not do. That means, God gave man the ability to rape somebody.

It could have been well within God's unlimited power to make man able to erase other men by using nothing but the power of their minds. However, this is not the case (luckily). However, God made man able to rape.

Why did not God simply make rape impossible, just like how he made erasing people with your mind impossible?

[iEatFood]

What? We're limited by our physical forms. In other words, God created the physical realm. In this realm we can do whatever we want as guided by the physical laws that God created. There's nothing stoping me from doing anything as long as it's plausable within the laws of physics. That's free will.

Being able to erase people from existance with my mind would mean also having the ability to create people with my mind. Which, in turn, would be giving me the power of God himself. And if we could all be God, there would be no need for life. I guess it's reasonable to say that God could have given us all the power of God but why would he do that? Even you know that's a terrible idea.

[TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID]

I stopped believing in an omnipotent god, but for the sake of the argument, I'll defend the chase from a Biblical point of view.

What if God has the power to do anything, and make the world how he wishes, but cannot undo his last wishes by the swing of a rod? In other words, what if god has unlimited power to introduce new phenomena but not to erase old phenomena entirely?

This would mean that God does not know what the future brings, or that he does not know what mankind will do, because there is free will?
Maybe God has only limited sight into the future, and he can only see what will happen up to five years or so?

[Drakim]

At 10/8/07 03:34 PM, iEatFood wrote: What? We're limited by our physical forms. In other words, God created the physical realm. In this realm we can do whatever we want as guided by the physical laws that God created. There's nothing stoping me from doing anything as long as it's plausable within the laws of physics. That's free will.

Being able to erase people from existance with my mind would mean also having the ability to create people with my mind. Which, in turn, would be giving me the power of God himself. And if we could all be God, there would be no need for life. I guess it's reasonable to say that God could have given us all the power of God but why would he do that? Even you know that's a terrible idea.

That power was just an example.

We have physical limitations too. Which thing I compare it to shouldn't change the point I was trying to make, so your post is pretty irrelevant.

Also, you still don't think outside the box :p

Because, God decides what is part of the physical world and not. Thus, killing people with your mind could be the most normal thing in the world should God wish so, and rape could be an mind numbing impossibility as a matter of physical laws.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Drakim I have a question for you. You're an atheist you don't believe in religion and I understand why. However why do you feel it's necessary to attack anyone with religion and attempt to convert them to your way of thinking, if memory serves that was a favorite tactic of Dark Age religious leaders. Do you feel it's your mission to destroy the beliefs of others? Or do you just have a lot of free time?

[AapoJoki]

At 10/8/07 05:35 PM, GaiusIuliusTaberna wrote: Drakim I have a question for you. You're an atheist you don't believe in religion and I understand why. However why do you feel it's necessary to attack anyone with religion and attempt to convert them to your way of thinking, if memory serves that was a favorite tactic of Dark Age religious leaders. Do you feel it's your mission to destroy the beliefs of others? Or do you just have a lot of free time?

He's not "attacking" anyone. He has every right to bring other people's religious views into question, just like he can question others' political views and other opinions. I think he is acting very civilized and his points are legitimate. Anyone who finds him to be "attacking" religion in an offensive way is an oversensitive little pussy. If he challenges your beliefs, then you should defend those beliefs with reasonable arguments, not by pulling the "oh I'm so offended that you attacked my religion" card.

[ssjskipp]

I read the first post, then skimmed through the rest of the garble.

(Please note, I will not use the word 'God' in this argument other than this note.)

What is "Free Will"? Is it the ability to make decisions? Is it being able to have control over your own life?
Well, here's what I think:

You have Free Will....that doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, it means you can THINK whatever you want! Will is not the action -- it is the thought behind it. Now, you seemed to think that by "Free Will", it meant that we're able to do what we want, and somehow, 'good and evil' got tossed in with Free Will. You have to understand that everyone can think what they want -- and that's free will. No one can take that away from you (unless technology advances and mind control comes about). People can, however, kill each other. Now, killing other because they act in a different way than you is called oppression. That's TRYING to control people's thoughts, and get rid of their free will. The thing is, you can only control so much about a person.

Now, why can't we just "erase" people? Well, you're thinking in a fantasy world, my friend...oh, and we can -- it's called a "gun", all you have to do is see someone, and you can 'erase' them. Permanently. Now, it may not be as easy as just 'thinking' it, but it's pretty damn close. So, why isn't the world in complete chaos, with people killing each other left and right? We have free will, don't we? If we wanted to, we could decide to go get a gun, and start shooting people, why don't we? Well, there's people that do. There's people who say 'I want people to die -- I want to end their lives'. And they go through with it. Now, why did they do that?

Here's the thing: There has to be a generally accepted 'good' about the world -- and there is! That's the beauty of Free Will, you have the ability to decide. You can say "I want to HELP the race I belong to -- I want to do GOOD for society!"

...well, this probably doesn't answer anything, but it sure as hell was fun to type.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Actually I could care less. To be honest I'm far from religious myself I don't consider myself an atheist manly because it's not important enough of an issue for me and I feel publicly announcing or renouncing my faith is a waist of effort.

I am just curious why he cares so much about this to continuously debate religion. The only time I attack someone's belief is when its extreme for instance religions like Mormonism, Jehovah's witnesses, Satanism, scientology, jihadsim, ect.

I have to say I love south parks out look on a future with out religion. "They have the wrong science kill them!" hehehe

[iEatFood]

At 10/8/07 03:58 PM, Drakim wrote: We have physical limitations too. Which thing I compare it to shouldn't change the point I was trying to make, so your post is pretty irrelevant.

We do? Like what? I'm able to move my arm in any direction at any time I want it to. Just because I'm not able to rip it off, throw it across the room like a boomerang, and reatach it without consequence doesn't prove anything.

But the fact is... I could. Man has the ability to learn, build, and create and when technology reaches the point where I'm able to reatach my arm correctly there is nothing stoping me from doing the above. But just because God didn't give me that ability at birth doesn't mean that it can't be done.

Also, you still don't think outside the box :p

You're the one not thinking outside of the box. If I, as a 3 dimensional being, draw a 2 dimensional person on a peice of paper I can draw him however I want and give him the ability to do whatever he pleases. But just because I didn't draw my cartoon as a 70 foot tall robot man that has the ability shoot fireballs out of his eyes doesn't prove that I don't exist. It just proves that I didn't see any reason for my character in question to have such an ability so I didn't give it to him.

On the other hand, let's say I write a computer program that contains said character. But I program a sub routine that allows my character to change and grow over time depending on the way he interacts with his environment. He still can't shoot fireballs out of his eyes and he's still not 70 feet tall but that doesn't mean he won't be able to find the power up that enables him to do so. Who's to say that he's not going to develop it on his own because, for whatever reason, he thinks it's something that will help him survive. Who knows, if I code it well enough I might even be able to code in evolution at which point any and all options can become plausable and it's no longer a question of can he, it's a question of will he and if so, when.

Because, God decides what is part of the physical world and not. Thus, killing people with your mind could be the most normal thing in the world should God wish so

Obviously God did not wish so, so it is not.

and rape could be an mind numbing impossibility as a matter of physical laws.

But then so would sex... which is how we populate the planet. Making rap an impossibility of physics would make reproduction an impossibility of physics. There is nothing evil that man does that doesn't also double as a very needed condition in the world. I can make a fist. But that doesn't mean I have to hit somebody with it. I can make a fist because I need to in order to hold objects. If I choose to take this tool and use it to cause harm to another person that's free will.

[SmilezRoyale]

Is the idea that this hypathetical god wanted humans to make mistakes even remotely plausible. As to the parent analogy, if your child was riding a Bicycle and he/she fell over and injured him/herself, asuming that they could ride a bike again, and asuming you [And as a parent, you can] Descide it would be in they're best interest never to ride a bike.

[Brick-top]

What amazes me is God can have eternal knowledge and power yet still give humans free will. Isn't that a contradiction?

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

Oh god, another.

FREE WILL DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS.

Free will exists; fact. If I want to punch someo one, I can chose to. If I want to eat a donut, I can. I have the mental ability to control my mind and my physical presence. This is free will.

I can't shrink people with my mind. Is this because I can't try to shrink people with my mind? Of course not, don't be an idiot. I can't do it because I'm physically limited. That's evolution, not free will.

[K-RadPie]

At 10/8/07 06:50 PM, Brick-top wrote: What amazes me is God can have eternal knowledge and power yet still give humans free will. Isn't that a contradiction?

Um... No.

[iEatFood]

At 10/8/07 06:50 PM, Brick-top wrote: What amazes me is God can have eternal knowledge and power yet still give humans free will. Isn't that a contradiction?

No. Because if we didn't have free will we wouldn't really be alive. We'd just be mindless zombies that he would have to control every second of every day... and why create that? That's like saying you don't need friends because you can draw a stick figure on a peice of paper. Draw all the stick figures you want, you'll still be lonely.

Give that stick figure the ability to think and act on his own, and then you have a friend. But you run the risk of that stick figure doing things on his own that invovle things you don't approve of. Be it killing other stick figures or just chosing not to talk to you.

[Imperator]

At 10/8/07 12:48 PM, Drakim wrote: I want to talk about the free will argument.

S'alright.

From what I've heard, free will is used to explain why there is evil in the world. For God to allow us to have free will and control of our own actions, he must allow evil to exist. Evil, in this case, is simply a action of free will that is not geared towards God's morality.

Free Will in part explained evil in the world. The people who base it entirely off of Free Will tend to get stuck in their own logic loops....

Now, I think this argument doesn't hold up. I'll explain why.

Of which you're about to expose said loops.

I cannot erase you with my mind. It's beyond my power. Erasing people with your mind is not part of how reality works. If God exists, being omnipotent, he would be able to make it so that you and I could erase people with our minds. This however, as you can see, would create a world of chaos and evil. If anybody could erase anyone for not liking them, you could never live safely, and all forms of attempts to create control would utterly fail.

Well to an extent, you CAN erase someone with your mind. Forgetting happens on a frequent basis. Unfortunately, I think this argument isn't very good. The mind was not designed to do such a task, therefore it's not necessarily a matter of Free Will that prevents us from doing so, but the sheer mechanics of it.

I think we can all agree that such a reality would be very bad, and we absolutely don't want such a world to live in. Now, ask yourself, does this hinder your free will? Does the fact that you cannot erase people with your mind limit your free will?

No. Free Will is not the ability to do whatever you want, whenever, however, etc. Well it IS, but we're bound by our society, culture, and genetic makeup upon birth, which "limits" the amount of Free Will one possesses. I think one of the problems with talking about Free Will is we never sit back and examine just what we mean by it. I can't fly, although I'd LOVE to fly around Ann Arbor like Superman. I don't necessarily see this as a hindrance to Free Will, because I think Free Will applies more to your options after taking all the physics and mechanics of the human into consideration.

Physically I cannot fly, but I can dream about it, envision it, imagine it, and describe how it would all work. Does this mean that my Free Will isn't actually being hindered, since even though I can't physically fly, my mind can still "convince" me of such things?

Free Will's kinda a sticky thing to get in to.....

Again, the free will argument goes that these bad things must exist for free will to exist, but I don't see why. Can anybody explain to me exactly why not being able to erase people with my mind does not remove my free will, but not being able to rape, murder and destroy would remove my free will?

I think it's the other way around. Free Will exists so that humans can do those bad things, but I think they would be in existence regardless. For instance, in the OT and other holy texts the deity is often seen performing a lot of those bad things. God in a sense kills in the same way we kill, albeit there are important differences (such as the mediation between God and Man).

If erasing people with your mind can be prevented (as God has done), why cannot rape and murder be prevented in the same way? That would still leave evil actions like lying, stealing and deceiving. But those don't destroy lives like rape and murder does. The victim can recover from a lie, but not a murder.

Maybe they can't be prevented in the same way because the mechanics are different? The eyes weren't designed to shoot lasers, but is that really a prevention of Free Will, or simply a matter of the base mechanics of our bodies prior to Free Will coming into play?

Wouldn't it be very easy for God to create a reality were, say, violence cannot be done to children?

Maybe, I don't really know. Maybe violence is done to children because there is a hidden good as a result? The whole "what doesn't kill you" aspect of life. If you notice human history, the biggest gains in humanitarianism occur after some of the worst disasters.

After WWI chem weapons were banned after seeing just how nasty gas was. The Geneva convention was established after such a horrific war. Humanitarian conventions were set up after WWII. Torture and genocide were "outlawed" as a result of seeing them happen.

Even our own Constitution and Bill of Rights are a result of not having them before hand.

We're an evolving species, and unfortuately for us, we learn through seeing our mistakes. We cannot learn if there are no more mistakes though....

Would not being able to hurt children remove your free will? You could still lie, deceive, or generally be rude, but why does things such as murder and rape have to exists in order for free will to exist?

Well if you want to play semantics, which hurts more? Being lied to, or being slapped?

Man, this was kinda hard to explain. Tell me if you don't understand and I'll try better.

It's even harder to answer.....

BLAH!

[poxpower]

At 10/8/07 02:57 PM, Drakim wrote: sign...some people can't even think the slightest outside the box without you holding their hand on the way.

Yeah it's pretty sad.

And of course, you're right. I had never thought of it that way though, even if I had though about all the ways free will makes no sense.

[Tomsan]

At 10/8/07 06:50 PM, Brick-top wrote: What amazes me is God can have eternal knowledge and power yet still give humans free will. Isn't that a contradiction?

no its not, you what is?

if god is omnipotent and all knowing, as well as the past as the future, can he then alter his own destiny?
if one knows his own future one can change it meaning it didnt really knew its own future. Or when you state he can only travel in his own set future (not able to change it) meaning he is not omnipotent.

[EndGameOmega]

At 10/9/07 05:57 AM, Tomsan wrote:

At 10/8/07 06:50 PM, Brick-top wrote: What amazes me is God can have eternal knowledge and power yet still give humans free will. Isn't that a contradiction?

no its not, you what is?

???

if god is omnipotent and all knowing, as well as the past as the future, can he then alter his own destiny?

No. If something is all knowing then it's impossible for something to exist which is unknown, other wise you're not omniscient. Being omnipotent means you can do anything, you are all powerful. Obviously this contradicts omniscience as there is something you can't do, namely make something unknown to your self. The whole concepts of perfection are just one huge mess of flogic (false logic).

if one knows his own future one can change it meaning it didnt really knew its own future. Or when you state he can only travel in his own set future (not able to change it) meaning he is not omnipotent.

More or less correct.

[Drakim]

.....

People.

For all you late posters, I so NO point that hasn't been answered by me earlier.

But, I'll answer them again for you, but this is the last time I tell you! :0

Erasing people with your mind is not a physical thing, that's why you can't do it.
God decides what is physical and not. He could have made rape collide with the laws of physics, and let erasing people with your mind be a natural thing like jumping. Remember, he is God.

Preventing rape would stop sex, and doom the human race
Yet again, we are talking about God. It should be well within God's power to make it simply impossible to have sex unless both people agree.

Rape can't be prevented in the same way as mind erasing because the mechanics are different
Yet again, God. Omnipotent. By definition, nothing can be too hard for him.

We're limited by our physical forms
God defines what is physical and what is not. He could have made rape and murder impossibilities.

Free will is just about thinking, not action
Thinking is an action too. By thinking of a math problem, I use energy of my body. Thinking also changes your mind slowly, making your person. So, it isn't a "non-physical" action that you are hinting at. And, we do act our other actions, such as jumping, based on what we have been thinking.

-----

I shall await a deserving reply, I know you are out there. ;)

[pimpbiscuit]

Honestly, what does god have to do with free will?
Our brains are programmed to do things to keep us alive. They are also programmed to defend yourself, whether or not you're doing something malicious. Erasing someone from your mind is like trying to fly without an airplane, it can't happen. So this whole arguement thing is kind of ridiculous, since God has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[poxpower]

But couldn't you also say that giving us even ONE choice qualifies as free will?

He couldn't have given us all the possible choices without making us omnipotent and omniscient like himself, but if you take the definition of free will to the other extreme and assume that simply having one simple choice at one point qualifies us as free, then it works.

If I can choose between eating a banana and an apple, do I not have some form of free will?