Christians Can't Deny This

[jfella91]

If God created us exactly the way we are, with all our specific personalities and problems, likes and dislikes, and put us in the environment we live in, would it not be entirely be God's fault if we sin?

For instance, If God created someone with a criminal mind and made them meet criminal friends and they committed crimes with them, isn't that God's fault? If God made someone a psychopathic, heartless murderer and they mass-murdered people, would that not be God's fault? So how can the Bible say that anyone who sins and doesn't repent will go to hell? If someone doesn't believe in God and can't repent, isn't that God's fault for putting them in a situation which makes them not believe in God? But yet, the Bible says if you don't believe or if you sin but don't repent to God, you go to Hell.

Essentially, it's God's fault if you go to hell. Does that make any sense to you? Which will lead me to ask, does the Bible really make any sense to you?

[Harakashi]

If you ''sin'' then thats your fault.

I don't believe in god but my guess is (if there is one) that he likes it just the way the world is
he loves to see his ''children'' suffer, have sex, and enjoy life.

hell is a human invention to get the masses into religion :P

[RedGlare]

Christians can't deny this? what about all the other religions, presumably they must be able to deny it. So whats stopping the Christians from taking there ability to deny?

[Lizardcoolz]

You do know as it is stated in the bible that humans have free will? God just makes them first hand...

[Draconias]

At 10/7/07 12:41 PM, Lizardcoolz wrote: You do know as it is stated in the bible that humans have free will? God just makes them first hand...

And by making them with free will, he is ultimately responsible for their ability to commit sins. He could just as easily have made it so that it wasn't possible to commit sins, either by taking away the ability or making the act impossible (i.e. humans can't be killed, so you can't murder each other). It's his failure one way or another.

[Sajberhippien]

At 10/7/07 12:41 PM, Lizardcoolz wrote: You do know as it is stated in the bible that humans have free will? God just makes them first hand...

But free will isn't without it's limits. God gave us SOME free will (for example, I can't dematerialize or for that matter see god just because it's my will), but chose what limits there should be. So he made it impossible for us to dematerialize, but not to sin. See where I'm going?
Also, read the following:
Exodus 7:3-4 (New International Version)
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

So basically, we have free will when God wants us to. Other times he takes it away and punishes us for the sinning he force us into (like the pharao). And if we only have free will when God likes what we do, then he would logically like seeing us kill each other.

At 10/7/07 12:39 PM, RedGlare wrote: Christians can't deny this? what about all the other religions, presumably they must be able to deny it. So whats stopping the Christians from taking there ability to deny?

Religions that don't claim to have a god (such as Buddhism) or that don't claim to have omnipotent god(s) (such as the Norse mythology) don't have that problem. If you take away omniscience then the problem is also solved.

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 12:47 PM, Draconias wrote:

At 10/7/07 12:41 PM, Lizardcoolz wrote: You do know as it is stated in the bible that humans have free will? God just makes them first hand...

And by making them with free will, he is ultimately responsible for their ability to commit sins. He could just as easily have made it so that it wasn't possible to commit sins, either by taking away the ability or making the act impossible (i.e. humans can't be killed, so you can't murder each other). It's his failure one way or another.

Even with free will though, you will always do what you want to do, based on what you know and what you like. What you know and what you like is because of the way your brain is and your environment, so if God made your brain the way it is and put you in the environment you are in, then it's his fault.

[Brick-top]

At 10/7/07 12:41 PM, Lizardcoolz wrote: You do know as it is stated in the bible that humans have free will?

No we don't

read my blog to find out more.

[Thread-Killer]

At 10/7/07 12:47 PM, Draconias wrote: And by making them with free will, he is ultimately responsible for their ability to commit sins. He could just as easily have made it so that it wasn't possible to commit sins, either by taking away the ability or making the act impossible (i.e. humans can't be killed, so you can't murder each other). It's his failure one way or another.

Then it would be impossible to choose to do good.

And by your logic, parents are responsible for the crimes committed by their children. After all, they "created" children knowing that their children had the ability to commit crimes.

[PhoenixTails]

Another point similar to this I have heard many times-
If God created us with free will and with the ability to deny his existence, then he cannot fairly condemn anyone to hell, because its his fault we can deny him in the first place.

I really don't want to hear the comeback "Oh but he gave you that ability so you could have free will...."
Listen, if there was a god, and he cared about me, he wouldn't make it possible for me to damn myself to hell.

[Thread-Killer]

At 10/7/07 02:29 PM, jfella91 wrote: Even with free will though, you will always do what you want to do, based on what you know and what you like. What you know and what you like is because of the way your brain is and your environment, so if God made your brain the way it is and put you in the environment you are in, then it's his fault.

Actions arent predetermined like that unless you lack free will. Hence you "Even with free will" clause makes no sense.

[Thread-Killer]

At 10/7/07 02:47 PM, PhoenixTails wrote: Listen, if there was a god, and he cared about me, he wouldn't make it possible for me to damn myself to hell.

Actually if he didnt care about you, he would never give you the option of salvation. He would send you to Hell directly. The fact that he does offer that option proves that he does care about you.

If you refuse to take that option, then you shouldn't blame anyone but yourself.

[PhoenixTails]

Under your logic, its okay for me to put somebody in a bathtub, and then give them the option of bathing either with/without a plugged-in hairdryer. It's obviously not my fault if the take a bath and electrocute themselves, because they did it of their own free will.

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 02:33 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 10/7/07 11:38 AM, jfella91 wrote: If God created us exactly the way we are, with all our specific personalities and problems,

But he didn't. Therefore, I deny any conclusions you came up with with your erroneous assumptions.

Good day, sir.

Christians have told me many times around, that God made you just the way you are and he has a specific purpose for you.

[Thread-Killer]

At 10/7/07 02:41 PM, Brick-top wrote:

At 10/7/07 12:41 PM, Lizardcoolz wrote: You do know as it is stated in the bible that humans have free will?

No we don't

read my blog to find out more.

That argument is not new to philosophy, and there are techniques for refuting it. Visit me source for a basic discussion and some sources for further reading.

Source: http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/foreknow.htm

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 02:45 PM, Thread-Killer wrote:

At 10/7/07 12:47 PM, Draconias wrote: And by making them with free will, he is ultimately responsible for their ability to commit sins. He could just as easily have made it so that it wasn't possible to commit sins, either by taking away the ability or making the act impossible (i.e. humans can't be killed, so you can't murder each other). It's his failure one way or another.

Then it would be impossible to choose to do good.

And by your logic, parents are responsible for the crimes committed by their children. After all, they "created" children knowing that their children had the ability to commit crimes.

Actually, not at all. I'm saying, apparently Christians claim God created each person the way they are. Obviously, its because of your parents' genes, but the Bible was made up as best as they could imagine before science.

[PhoenixTails]

Thats why its absolutely ridiculous to take the bible literally, whether you believe in God or not. Back then if they couldn't explain it, it was obviously magic.

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 02:56 PM, PhoenixTails wrote: Under your logic, its okay for me to put somebody in a bathtub, and then give them the option of bathing either with/without a plugged-in hairdryer. It's obviously not my fault if the take a bath and electrocute themselves, because they did it of their own free will.

Well actually, under Christianity's logic, its God's plan for you to put someone in a bathtub and give them a hairdryer, that's why he made you the way you are. And if that person chooses to bath with the plugged-in hairdryer, it was God's plan to make them suicidal. Both of you are sinning, and would supposedly go to Hell, even when it's apparently God's plan to make you both do that.

[PhoenixTails]

I never understood why it was supposedly a sin to off yourself.

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 03:07 PM, PhoenixTails wrote: Thats why its absolutely ridiculous to take the bible literally, whether you believe in God or not. Back then if they couldn't explain it, it was obviously magic.

It is absolutely ridiculous to take the Bible literally. I agree with you 100%. Which is exactly what Christians are supposed to do, and what many Christians do. Then there's the laid-back Christians, like yourself I assume. who just like the comfort of God, so you assume, without reasoning, that some of the Bible is fake, like the Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve stories, because it is complete ludacris, but you justify by trying to say they are just stories that were just put in for whatever reason.

[Thread-Killer]

At 10/7/07 03:09 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 10/7/07 03:02 PM, jfella91 wrote: Christians have told me many times around, that God made you just the way you are

I would like to see The Bible passage that says this.

Personally, I'd settle for meet any of those Christians that supposedly said that. I doubt that part is even true.

[notld224]

At 10/7/07 11:38 AM, jfella91 wrote: If God created us exactly the way we are, with all our specific personalities and problems, likes and dislikes, and put us in the environment we live in, would it not be entirely be God's fault if we sin?

For instance, If God created someone with a criminal mind and made them meet criminal friends and they committed crimes with them, isn't that God's fault? If God made someone a psychopathic, heartless murderer and they mass-murdered people, would that not be God's fault? So how can the Bible say that anyone who sins and doesn't repent will go to hell? If someone doesn't believe in God and can't repent, isn't that God's fault for putting them in a situation which makes them not believe in God? But yet, the Bible says if you don't believe or if you sin but don't repent to God, you go to Hell.

Essentially, it's God's fault if you go to hell. Does that make any sense to you? Which will lead me to ask, does the Bible really make any sense to you?

YOU are bound for HELL!.
Please see http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/The_holy_Ch urch-Christ_Army_of_Protest for more information on just WHY you're bound for hell...

But yeah... that's true. Although the Christians call it a 'test' (even if God knows the future and what you'll do and does nothing about it).

[SiriusTerna]

Wouldnt that mean that if we have free will that we can believe God himself is not real and that other religions makes more sense and feel the need to join them therefore condeming ourselves because we dont believe in God?

Why would he want that?

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 03:16 PM, Thread-Killer wrote:

At 10/7/07 03:09 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 10/7/07 03:02 PM, jfella91 wrote: Christians have told me many times around, that God made you just the way you are

I would like to see The Bible passage that says this.

Personally, I'd settle for meet any of those Christians that supposedly said that. I doubt that part is even true.

In fact, that's why you are who you are. He has made you unique. Your gifts, passions, abilities, personality, and experiences make you uniquely you. You are designed by God "to do good works, which God prepared in advance for [you] to do." (Ephesians 2:10)

Happy? It's a common teaching in Christianity. You're not putting up a very good argument...

[Tomsan]

At 10/7/07 02:33 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 10/7/07 11:38 AM, jfella91 wrote: If God created us exactly the way we are, with all our specific personalities and problems,

But he didn't. Therefore, I deny any conclusions you came up with with your erroneous assumptions.

Good day, sir.

I just knew I would see a grammer post here! yeah
but for once I agree with you in this case

sorry for useless post

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 03:43 PM, Tomsan wrote:

At 10/7/07 02:33 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 10/7/07 11:38 AM, jfella91 wrote: If God created us exactly the way we are, with all our specific personalities and problems,

But he didn't. Therefore, I deny any conclusions you came up with with your erroneous assumptions.

Good day, sir.

I just knew I would see a grammer post here! yeah
but for once I agree with you in this case

sorry for useless post

Oh right, I forgot to mention that this (In fact, that's why you are who you are. He has made you unique. Your gifts, passions, abilities, personality, and experiences make you uniquely you. You are designed by God "to do good works, which God prepared in advance for [you] to do." (Ephesians 2:10)) quote disproves Grammer, also.

At 10/7/07 03:32 PM, SiriusTerna wrote: Wouldnt that mean that if we have free will that we can believe God himself is not real and that other religions makes more sense and feel the need to join them therefore condeming ourselves because we dont believe in God?

Why would he want that?

I know, it's a huge contradiction, which Christians seem to manage to ignore.

[Q-Pac]

At 10/7/07 11:38 AM, jfella91 wrote:

Gotta love the non-christian mentallity; God gave us freedom, therefor it's totally not our faults when we commit sin.

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 03:58 PM, Q-Pac wrote:

At 10/7/07 11:38 AM, jfella91 wrote:

Gotta love the non-christian mentallity; God gave us freedom, therefor it's totally not our faults when we commit sin.

On top of that, he apparently made people the way they are. So certain people are sinners/evil by God's creation AND gave them free-will and freedom, so essentially it would be God's fault for their sins, but yet apparently they are going to go to hell. See where I am coming from?

[Q-Pac]

At 10/7/07 12:56 PM, Sajberhippien wrote:

But free will isn't without it's limits. God gave us SOME free will (for example, I can't dematerialize or for that matter see god just because it's my will), but chose what limits there should be. So he made it impossible for us to dematerialize, but not to sin. See where I'm going?
Also, read the following:

...Are you fucking daft? Go look up 'Free Will", come back, and write me a 1 paragraph essay on how stupid it was of you to think that you can't dematerialize do to "Free Will" as opposed to "basic fucking physics".

[jfella91]

At 10/7/07 04:06 PM, Q-Pac wrote:

At 10/7/07 12:56 PM, Sajberhippien wrote:

But free will isn't without it's limits. God gave us SOME free will (for example, I can't dematerialize or for that matter see god just because it's my will), but chose what limits there should be. So he made it impossible for us to dematerialize, but not to sin. See where I'm going?
Also, read the following:

...Are you fucking daft? Go look up 'Free Will", come back, and write me a 1 paragraph essay on how stupid it was of you to think that you can't dematerialize do to "Free Will" as opposed to "basic fucking physics".

LMFAO, I just ignored that post because I didn't understand it at the time, but I just realized that he thought free will was the power to do literally anything.

Christians.