Unions Cost American Jobs

[BeFell]

The United Auto Workers have just shut down GM.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/24/news/com panies/gm_uaw_strikedeadline/index.htm?c nn=yes

Now it's now secret to anyone that GM hasn't been doing well for the last couple of years, in fact they have been doing downright shitty as evidenced by these Income Statements and the fact that Toyota (a Japanese Company) has surpassed them as the world's largest auto maker. For those of you who have majored in unemployment (English, History, Political Science, Native American Studies, etc.) the use of parenthesis in the Net Income row indicates a loss, which is bad. A big reason for these losses and piss poor margins is the fact that GM has made such generous concessions to its employees over the years that every car it produces has an extra few thousand dollars of cost tacked on to it. For a company that produces 12,200 new cars everyday, that's a lot of extra cost. So with their employer getting its ass kicked around by the Japanese and remaining crippled in terms of producing a decent margin the GM employees have decided that the best course of action is demand guarantees that GM will not attempt any obvious cost cutting changes or they will stop making cars.

Essentially GM laying on the ground struggling to breathe while its employees kick it in the head.

It simply occurs to me that someone who is concerned about losing their job to oversees workers should not force their employer out of business especially when the nearest competitor is an overseas firm.

Thoughts?

[Ornithorynque]

Thats because Toyota Gets things done right and fast,while GM sits around taking a shit on the floor.

[BeFell]

At 9/24/07 04:08 PM, Ornithorynque wrote: Thats because Toyota Gets things done right and fast,while GM sits around taking a shit on the floor.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the union fought for that right because they deemed the 20 feet to walk to the restroom was too much effort for any of its members. GM management asked the union if they could at least have some employees clean up the shit but they were refused. When GM tried to hire some Puerto Ricans to come in and clean up the mess the union threw a literal shit storm asphyxiating the poor souls in the abundant feces.

[Ornithorynque]

At 9/24/07 04:18 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 9/24/07 04:08 PM, Ornithorynque wrote: Thats because Toyota Gets things done right and fast,while GM sits around taking a shit on the floor.

When GM tried to hire some Puerto Ricans to come in and clean up the mess the union threw a literal shit storm asphyxiating the poor souls in the abundant feces.

Poor,lazy bastards,expecting to have work in a job,where someone could do their job 3x as fast and at half the price.

[Ornithorynque]

At 9/24/07 04:31 PM, WillDouglas wrote: Unions are necessary, or else the bosses would do as they please. Wasn't it for unions, the bosses would pay late, withhold benefits as much as possible, and fire people whenever they felt like so.

Good Point

[JakeHero]

At 9/24/07 04:31 PM, WillDouglas wrote: Unions are necessary,

Yeah, because I enjoy the prospect of paying more for products due to asshole union.

or else the bosses would do as they please.

Complete horseshiite.

Wasn't it for unions,

If it wasn't for unions thousands of people wouldn't be losing their jobs and overall stifling the economy.

the bosses would pay late,

No they wouldn't, considering this is illegal and would likely be fined to oblivion by a state or federal government. Quit embellishing shit, man.

withhold benefits as much as possible,

Umm, incase you didn't realize, benefits are just that, benefits. No employer is required to give benefits, but do so anyways because it is better for capitalism. If you want skilled laborers you give them benefits because their job is in high-demand. If you're unskilled you don't get jackshit. There's something fucked up about a part-time burger flipper dental coverage, but maybe I'm just old fashion like that.

and fire people whenever they felt like so.

They can do this now.

stupid brick

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 9/24/07 04:31 PM, WillDouglas wrote: Unions are necessary, or else the bosses would do as they please. Wasn't it for unions, the bosses would pay late, withhold benefits as much as possible, and fire people whenever they felt like so.

Which would then force the workers to quit and go find better jobs and once word of how the workers were treated got round the company would go bust.

Seriously mate, I'm quite left wing, and even I recognize that unions having such power is a BAD thing. Just look at the UK during the 70's when the unions practically ran the place.

[Elfer]

At 9/24/07 06:26 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote:

At 9/24/07 04:31 PM, WillDouglas wrote: Unions are necessary, or else the bosses would do as they please. Wasn't it for unions, the bosses would pay late, withhold benefits as much as possible, and fire people whenever they felt like so.

Which would then force the workers to quit and go find better jobs and once word of how the workers were treated got round the company would go bust.

That's the basic idea behind a union.

What we need to do is get rid of stupid union leaders who don't know how to negotiate.

[BeFell]

At 9/24/07 07:22 PM, Elfer wrote: That's the basic idea behind a union.

What we need to do is get rid of stupid union leaders who don't know how to negotiate.

How do you account for the fact that most intelligent people don't belong to unions because they were not smart enough to specialize and make themselves a valuable asset negating their need to belong to union?

Of course this is not true of all unions, electricians and plumbers have fairly successful unions which don't cut the throats of their workers but the the members of these unions are specialized highly skilled individuals who could command a high salary with or without the union.

In other words unions only work when they make sense, such as when highly skilled individuals exploit their scarcity, but unions are idiotic when they try to inflate the value of unskilled laborers such as our friends in the UAW.

[ShitstormLX]

If this crap keeps up GM is dead... along with all the jobs the union was trying to "protect" in the first place. Damn it just when they started to get back on their feet product-wise.

[Elfer]

At 9/24/07 07:53 PM, BeFell wrote: In other words unions only work when they make sense, such as when highly skilled individuals exploit their scarcity, but unions are idiotic when they try to inflate the value of unskilled laborers such as our friends in the UAW.

Oh, I know that. Unskilled labour unions are stupid, because the premise behind a union is to have leverage against the employer. All that the unskilled unions can say is "Oh yeah? Where do you think you're going to find a bunch of people with no specific skills or qualifications?"

[Joe67]

Dude people in the U.S.A just can't get enough money for themselfs.

Even if they have enough money they ask for more and more.

[BeFell]

At 9/24/07 08:44 PM, Joe67 wrote: Dude people in the U.S.A just can't get enough money for themselfs.

Even if they have enough money they ask for more and more.

It's the American way, although we would generally prefer if one were willing to work for it.

[animehater]

At 9/24/07 08:38 PM, ShitstormLX wrote: If this crap keeps up GM is dead... along with all the jobs the union was trying to "protect" in the first place.

Not working for a strike leading to no work to come back to by the time you're done striking.

[Ravariel]

At 9/24/07 08:40 PM, Elfer wrote: All that the unskilled unions can say is "Oh yeah? Where do you think you're going to find a bunch of people with no specific skills or qualifications?"

Considering the rampant unemployment in Michigan right now, that'd probably be pretty easy...

[Elfer]

At 9/24/07 10:52 PM, Ravariel wrote:

At 9/24/07 08:40 PM, Elfer wrote: All that the unskilled unions can say is "Oh yeah? Where do you think you're going to find a bunch of people with no specific skills or qualifications?"

Considering the rampant unemployment in Michigan right now, that'd probably be pretty easy...

Yeah, that's the problem with unskilled unions.

On the other hand, if an employer suddenly needs to find ten new nuclear technicians, they're fucked.

[NuttyJuggalo27]

I love all the anti union sentiment here I wonder how man of you union bashers actually work btw. Slim to none knowing the internet. To the fool who doesn't think the the bosses wouldnt screw the worker every chance they got if their werent any unions or labor laws. Well your an idiot simply put. Ever pick up a history book and read about what it was like for workers before labor laws and unionization? 16 hr work weeks no safety standards children working in coal mines. We have unions and labor laws to thank for these not existing. Labor laws alone will not gaurd against these things however. Inspectors can be bribed and politicians can be bought to eradicate said laws. Wake up people the bosses all make out like bandits and the companies suffer. The execs get insane bonus and ungodly huge paychecks even if the company doesnt preform well. Even if it tanks these assholes still make HUGE sums of money. You wanna know why companies are preforming badly look at health care costs. Look at how we can't compete with foreign auto companies health care costs;. However look mostly at the bastards at the top who run the company they are the ones who run it into the ground not the workers.

[BeFell]

At 9/24/07 11:02 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote: I love all the anti union sentiment here I wonder how man of you union bashers actually work btw. Slim to none knowing the internet.

Most of us are busy specializing so we won't have to rely on the generosity of a corporation to have a pleasant existence.

To the fool who doesn't think the the bosses wouldnt screw the worker every chance they got if their werent any unions or labor laws. Well your an idiot simply put. Ever pick up a history book and read about what it was like for workers before labor laws and unionization?

Things change after several decades, unions may have been necessary a hundred years ago but in today's global market they are another obstacle for the American worker.

Your assumption that mandatory 16 hours workdays would return with the death of unions is kind of like saying slavery would start up again if Jesse Jackson died.

However look mostly at the bastards at the top who run the company they are the ones who run it into the ground not the workers.

Indeed, those morons conceded to the union demands in the first place when the prudent thing to do would have been to close down the whiner's plants and rebuild in Mexico.

[Imperator]

At 9/24/07 10:56 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 9/24/07 10:52 PM, Ravariel wrote:

At 9/24/07 08:40 PM, Elfer wrote: All that the unskilled unions can say is "Oh yeah? Where do you think you're going to find a bunch of people with no specific skills or qualifications?"

Considering the rampant unemployment in Michigan right now, that'd probably be pretty easy...

Yeah, that's the problem with unskilled unions.

On the other hand, if an employer suddenly needs to find ten new nuclear technicians, they're fucked.

Eh....they're fucked anyways, at least in this state. Granholm's all about turning our youth into rocket scientists, but they're rocket scientists, so they're not dumb enough to stick around and die with Michigan.

some unions just grow too large and end up choking the company, some are actually ok though.

I don't know much about economics, nor math, nor business, or any hard science, but there's two things I know, hopefully Rav can confirm their authenticity.

1.) Michigan is getting absolutely squeezed dry by the teacher's union, and the UAW. They have absolutely slaughtered this state's economy.

2.) Unless I get into Umich's Ph.D program in Classics or Ancient History, I'm takin my degree and gettin the fuck out quick. There ain't shit here, and I'm not dumb enough to stick around....I AM a wolverine after all.....

[Bolo]

At 9/24/07 07:53 PM, BeFell wrote: How do you account for the fact that most intelligent people don't belong to unions because they were not smart enough to specialize and make themselves a valuable asset negating their need to belong to union?

Unions are for the unskilled laborers. It's hard to make yourself a valuable asset when all you have the ability to do is punch car door frames from sheet metal.

Often, they don't have enough money to become a skilled laborer -- to receive the education requires time and funding. In order to get the money to accomplish this task, they need to work at unskilled jobs. However, they also have to support themselves, and possibly a family, so most of the take-home pay is scattered away to various purposes.

I think it's not really possible for most of them to rise out of the low-income lifestyle, and become a specialized, skilled laborer for the workforce.

[BeFell]

At 9/25/07 01:00 AM, Bolo wrote:

At 9/24/07 07:53 PM, BeFell wrote: How do you account for the fact that most intelligent people don't belong to unions because they were not smart enough to specialize and make themselves a valuable asset negating their need to belong to union?

Unions are for the unskilled laborers. It's hard to make yourself a valuable asset when all you have the ability to do is punch car door frames from sheet metal.

Traditionally unions have only included skilled craftsmen who could manage their scarce resource, labor unions built on unskilled labor didn't come around until the 1930's to much protest from the skilled labor unions.

Often, they don't have enough money to become a skilled laborer -- to receive the education requires time and funding. In order to get the money to accomplish this task, they need to work at unskilled jobs. However, they also have to support themselves, and possibly a family, so most of the take-home pay is scattered away to various purposes.

I think it's not really possible for most of them to rise out of the low-income lifestyle, and become a specialized, skilled laborer for the workforce.

That's complete nonsense spoon fed to the American people by the Democrat presidential hopefuls. I was offered $18,000 in financial aid to attend college this semester. Combine this with a part time job and you're looking at the mid 20s for yearly income, if you have a spouse who works this number jumps into the 30s. Lack of income is not an excuse for a lack of a college education in this country. If college isn't your cup of tea then the only requirements for the military are a high school diploma and reasonable physical fitness. If these possibilities don't float your boat there are several apprenticeship programs one could join. These include careers in electrician and plumbing where one works as they learn and thus make income while becoming skilled. A friend of mine is two years into the electrician program, he is earning enough that he just bought a new house, and car and he's putting his wife through college.

There are plenty of opportunities for one to become skilled in American society and damn few excuses not to pursue them. Lack of income is certainly isn't a reason to be unskilled, laziness on the other hand...

[Ravariel]

At 9/25/07 12:26 AM, Imperator wrote: 1.) Michigan is getting absolutely squeezed dry by the teacher's union, and the UAW. They have absolutely slaughtered this state's economy.

Among other things, yeah... they're a HUGE factor in our economic slump. The reason that the big 3 can't compete with the likes of Toyota and Honda are for this very reason... the unions just make it too damn expensive. If they sell their cars for much more then they can't compete on the world market... if they pay their workers a little less or cut benefits a bit the UAW shuts them down. Look at Chrysler... and now GM... I think even Ford has been buck.ling under the pressure of the unions. If they're not careful they're not going to hav anything to leverage.

UAW: "Pay us $20.00 an hour or we strike!"
Big3: "Sorry, we're bankrupt and shutting down all the factories... strike all you want."

2.) Unless I get into Umich's Ph.D program in Classics or Ancient History, I'm takin my degree and gettin the fuck out quick. There ain't shit here, and I'm not dumb enough to stick around....I AM a wolverine after all.....

Same. There ain't shit here. Even my parents are looking out of state for work and they've lived and made a reasonable living here for almost 30 years. My mother's business was decimated by the housing slump (and the tourism/auto slump) and she's had to close up shop and declare bankruptcy.

Unemployment statewide is at 7.5%... in the northern counties it's pushing 10-11%.

Once I get done with school, I. Am. Gone.

And anyone with any sense is doing the same... these rats know when to abandon a sinking ship. Once the Teachers union and the UAW figure out that a lower-paying job is better then no job, maybe it'll get better. I'm not about to hold my breath, though.

[NuttyJuggalo27]

At 9/24/07 11:40 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 9/24/07 11:02 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote: I love all the anti union sentiment here I wonder how man of you union bashers actually work btw. Slim to none knowing the internet.

Most of us are busy specializing so we won't have to rely on the generosity of a corporation to have a pleasant existence.

If your not paid well enough to make a decent living what they hell other choice does one have. Don't give me that goto college and get educated shit either when you busy paying off the loan for your house supporting a family and paying the bills college isnt exactly possible.

To the fool who doesn't think the the bosses wouldnt screw the worker every chance they got if their werent any unions or labor laws. Well your an idiot simply put. Ever pick up a history book and read about what it was like for workers before labor laws and unionization?

Things change after several decades, unions may have been necessary a hundred years ago but in today's global market they are another obstacle for the American worker.

Yes organizing to stand up for your rights hold you back because the corparations are always benevolent enough to look out for the littel man. Yeah right and what planet do you come from btw?

Your assumption that mandatory 16 hours workdays would return with the death of unions is kind of like saying slavery would start up again if Jesse Jackson died.

No Jesse Jackson is one man. Organization of the workers is slightly different.

However look mostly at the bastards at the top who run the company they are the ones who run it into the ground not the workers.

Indeed, those morons conceded to the union demands in the first place when the prudent thing to do would have been to close down the whiner's plants and rebuild in Mexico.

No its not they sometimes concede to the demand of the work force. Its because the execs are over paid. I didnthear of them not taking fat bonus checks while the company wasn't doing well.

Seems your quite the happy corp. whore. But with that crack you made about sending all the plants down to mexico it's quite obvious to anyone you've never worked a day in your life. I guess in your eyes us mere mortal working stuff should just bow down and do what ever the execs tell them,

[Elfer]

At 9/25/07 01:00 AM, Bolo wrote: Often, they don't have enough money to become a skilled laborer -- to receive the education requires time and funding.

A lot of trades have apprenticeship programs where you earn money and learn your trade at the same time.

[AapoJoki]

At 9/24/07 10:56 PM, Elfer wrote:

Considering the rampant unemployment in Michigan right now, that'd probably be pretty easy...

Yeah, that's the problem with unskilled unions.

Unless the unskilled unions are fucking huge. Like no matter where you go to look for unskilled labour, they're always unionized. I wish that was the case globally.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 9/25/07 06:13 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote:

At 9/24/07 11:40 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 9/24/07 11:02 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote:

If your not paid well enough to make a decent living what they hell other choice does one have. Don't give me that goto college and get educated shit either when you busy paying off the loan for your house supporting a family and paying the bills college isnt exactly possible.

Military enlistment, which also covers your healthcare as well. As a military based history, thats how my family progressed and advanced. I've had three generations of Colby's use the GI Bill for a college education.

Yes organizing to stand up for your rights hold you back because the corparations are always benevolent enough to look out for the littel man. Yeah right and what planet do you come from btw?

And the corporations are looking out for thier own self interest, just like every other person in society.

No its not they sometimes concede to the demand of the work force. Its because the execs are over paid. I didnthear of them not taking fat bonus checks while the company wasn't doing well.

There's no such thing as overpaid. The market will set the wages as seen.

Seems your quite the happy corp. whore. But with that crack you made about sending all the plants down to mexico it's quite obvious to anyone you've never worked a day in your life. I guess in your eyes us mere mortal working stuff should just bow down and do what ever the execs tell them,

Or that the execs should follow the basic tenents of capitalism.

[NuttyJuggalo27]

At 9/25/07 09:48 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/25/07 06:13 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote:

At 9/24/07 11:40 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 9/24/07 11:02 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote:

If your not paid well enough to make a decent living what they hell other choice does one have. Don't give me that goto college and get educated shit either when you busy paying off the loan for your house supporting a family and paying the bills college isnt exactly possible.

Military enlistment, which also covers your healthcare as well. As a military based history, thats how my family progressed and advanced. I've had three generations of Colby's use the GI Bill for a college education.

You do know that not everyone wants to join the military? My dad was also in the military as was my sevral of my uncles and a couplke of my cousins. Doesn't mean its the right choice for me or everyone else. Anyway your still missing the point.Even if you do join the military what is your family going to do while they wait for you to get that training anf education? The bank don't care if you start a new job and cant get that mortgage payment off.

Yes organizing to stand up for your rights hold you back because the corparations are always benevolent enough to look out for the littel man. Yeah right and what planet do you come from btw?

And the corporations are looking out for thier own self interest, just like every other person in society.
It's in their best interest to treat their workers well a happy worker is a good worker.

No its not they sometimes concede to the demand of the work force. Its because the execs are over paid. I didnthear of them not taking fat bonus checks while the company wasn't doing well.

There's no such thing as overpaid. The market will set the wages as seen.

The free market is not going to always take care of everything. Seems you republicans would rather let the free market decide everything then just do whats right.

Seems your quite the happy corp. whore. But with that crack you made about sending all the plants down to mexico it's quite obvious to anyone you've never worked a day in your life. I guess in your eyes us mere mortal working stuff should just bow down and do what ever the execs tell them,

Or that the execs should follow the basic tenents of capitalism.

I've got no problem with captialism however you should still have some form of ethics that tells yopu to do the right thing not just what makes you the best profit. Just like anything else MP you have to keep on eye on any economic system. Otherwise it will fall prey to corruption. Nothing is above being corrupted in this world these days.

[NuttyJuggalo27]

At 9/25/07 06:43 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 9/25/07 01:00 AM, Bolo wrote: Often, they don't have enough money to become a skilled laborer -- to receive the education requires time and funding.

A lot of trades have apprenticeship programs where you earn money and learn your trade at the same time.

Yes these do exist but they a far and few inbetween and many do want you to have some kind of experience.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 9/25/07 10:19 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote:

At 9/25/07 09:48 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 9/25/07 06:13 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote:

At 9/24/07 11:40 PM, BeFell wrote:

At 9/24/07 11:02 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote:

Even if you do join the military what is your family going to do while they wait for you to get that training anf education? The bank don't care if you start a new job and cant get that mortgage payment off.

A. You still get a paid salary in the military that is livable in any family enviroment.
B. Most banks in the US would be more then willing to cut some slack to a military family with guarrenteed income and a job, such as the military

It's in their best interest to treat their workers well a happy worker is a good worker.

When a worker is expendable labor, it doesn't really matter if he's happy or not. Being happy or not doesn't do squat when the workers skills are bolting car doors.

And no, it would be more in the corporations interest's to look towards minimizing labor costs.

The free market is not going to always take care of everything. Seems you republicans would rather let the free market decide everything then just do whats right.

More often then not, the free market does take care of itself, thus the reason for the Invisible Hand.

I've got no problem with captialism however you should still have some form of ethics that tells yopu to do the right thing not just what makes you the best profit. Just like anything else MP you have to keep on eye on any economic system. Otherwise it will fall prey to corruption. Nothing is above being corrupted in this world these days.

Whats right is arbitrary to an individual, country and law.

What is profitable is universal, and since a companies goals are of profit, the answer is easy.

[BeFell]

At 9/25/07 06:13 PM, NuttyJuggalo27 wrote: If your not paid well enough to make a decent living what they hell other choice does one have. Don't give me that goto college and get educated shit either when you busy paying off the loan for your house supporting a family and paying the bills college isnt exactly possible.

It looks to me like you just don't have the slightest idea how to manage money, its not a very easy thing to do, I'm in my fifth year of learning how to do it. Given all of your comments about overpaid executives and whatnot I have to ask, do you really think you deserve as much compensation as GM executives who have the skill set to manage over $300,000,000,000 in annual revenue when your skill set is limited to tightening lug nuts? Actually come to think of it, I bet they have a robot that does that, but I'm sure somebody needs to load the lug nuts into the robot.

Seems your quite the happy corp. whore. But with that crack you made about sending all the plants down to mexico it's quite obvious to anyone you've never worked a day in your life. I guess in your eyes us mere mortal working stuff should just bow down and do what ever the execs tell them,

You apparently are not very good at identifying "obvious" things. Perhaps this is why you can't understand the fact that when your employer is taking losses in the billions of dollars it probably isn't the best time to ask for a raise or block cost cutting measures?