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The "Hunting for Bambi" thing is a joke,and the owner of the company admitted it.
As far as upskirt porn, do you REALLY think any of it is real?
The women know they are being filmed and they are being paid for it.

At 7/19/03 03:55 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

You probably think I am a hearltess mysoginist after reading my posts. However, please understand that I think rape and molestation are the most horrible things that could ever happen to a woman (or man for that matter)......

No no. I am talking about even the consentual abuse. I'm saying that, regardless how much you'd like to believe that you can seperate body and mind, allowing yourself to be injured by another human being for money does affect you though you may not realize it.

I just don't think that a woman, any woman, can "choose" to not to let being beat bother her. @_o'

Even allowing yourself to be molested could be negotiable as how it affected affects the woman.....but not being physically hurt.

At 7/19/03 04:37 PM, THE_HULKSTER wrote: The "Hunting for Bambi" thing is a joke,and the owner of the company admitted it.
As far as upskirt porn, do you REALLY think any of it is real?
The women know they are being filmed and they are being paid for it.

Oh my god. Are you joking? @_o' The hunting for bambi thing IS REAL! @_o' And it's legal, to boot. The owner never said it was a joke. Did you even read the site? It was also on the news. They even have a petition you can sign to stop it.

ALSO, the women in upskirting crimes DON'T KNOW THAT THEY'RE BEING FILMED. Do you also think that women who are spied on in bathrooms "know that they are being filmed?" Did you even visit that link, either? That was on the news, too. In fact, that's legal, too, unfortunatly due to loopholes. However, that is being changed, thankfully. Also, if the women knew they were being filmed, then I don't think that they would try to send these men to prison, don't you?

Visit the sight before you judge these women. You're really coming off as a sexist freak. @_o'

At 7/19/03 07:57 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/19/03 03:55 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

You probably think I am a hearltess mysoginist after reading my posts. However, please understand that I think rape and molestation are the most horrible things that could ever happen to a woman (or man for that matter)......

No no. I am talking about even the consentual abuse. I'm saying that, regardless how much you'd like to believe that you can seperate body and mind, allowing yourself to be injured by another human being for money does affect you though you may not realize it.

I just don't think that a woman, any woman, can "choose" to not to let being beat bother her. @_o'

Even allowing yourself to be molested could be negotiable as how it affected affects the woman.....but not being physically hurt.

ok then, what about S&M? what about people who pay other people (especially women) to beat them? does that cause permanent mental scarring? i think that it differs person to person. i think you can be completely normal and participate in non-traditional sexual things such as S&M, hunting, whatever.

At 7/19/03 08:02 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

ok then, what about S&M? what about people who pay other people (especially women) to beat them? does that cause permanent mental scarring? i think that it differs person to person. i think you can be completely normal and participate in non-traditional sexual things such as S&M, hunting, whatever.

lol. Um....I'm pretty sure that the people who want to get beat already have issues to begin with. Just like women that want to sell themselves or be strippers, etc. But continuing the fetish can make it worse, and in some cases, cause it to leak into the person's personal life and "logic." That's my point. ^_-

Sorry ladies, just wanted to butt in and say something. It a relative issue. It is experienced and percieved differently from person A to person B. One can see that it for what it is, and the other, well, could be a neanderthal-man who thinks they ought mimic it. Its just that its a relative issue and therefore has different pshychological effects.

Eh anyway the men who do this are sad men who can't get booty.

At 7/19/03 08:11 PM, BWS wrote: Sorry ladies, just wanted to butt in and say something. It a relative issue. It is experienced and percieved differently from person A to person B. One can see that it for what it is, and the other, well, could be a neanderthal-man who thinks they ought mimic it. Its just that its a relative issue and therefore has different pshychological effects.

thank you, BWS. please ninja, from what you are saying, it sounds like you think that people with a nontraditional approach to sexuality are "sick" and "wrong", i'm afraid i can never agree with that.

At 7/19/03 01:50 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: What about prostitution? Many women who do that claim that they don't find it degrading, but.......well, often that's not really the case. But, whatever. What do you think about it?

I'm ok with legit prostitution (i.e. Nevada brothels) as long as the brothel takes good care of their employees and to ensure the customer doesn't get out of line and knows what's permissable and what isn't. Street prostitution is an unsafe practice and it's good that's illegal. Not only is it degrading to women, it's degrading to legit prostitution.

It's a shame most women has such low self esteem (not all, plenty of women who do these kinds of things not only don't not find what they choose to do degrading, but take pride in doing it also). However, I question if degradation is the key to it all. I think of all that low self esteem women has over their appearence and how they feel men would see them and I point my blame finger primarily at Cosmopolitan. "What's in? What's out? What's hot? What's not? 10 thing guys find sexy." Let the woman be herself and shut the fuck up, okay Cosmo??

BTW, I picked Cosmo as it was the first mag to pop in my mind.

Thanks Brotha!! Its needs to be said more often. There are so many debates that ignore such a fact. Relativity is certainly an aspect when morality is a variable to an argument...oh, and blah-ba-beda (that means schizzel:)

At 7/19/03 04:37 PM, THE_HULKSTER wrote: The "Hunting for Bambi" thing is a joke,and the owner of the company admitted it.

it started as a joke on hunting, then people emailed him saying they wanted to do that... in fact 80% of the emails they get from women are women sending in their pics wanting to do this...

As far as upskirt porn, do you REALLY think any of it is real?
The women know they are being filmed and they are being paid for it.

how could you possibly know this???

At 7/20/03 12:35 AM, OSC wrote: I'm ok with legit prostitution (i.e. Nevada brothels) as long as the brothel takes good care of their employees and to ensure the customer doesn't get out of line and knows what's permissable and what isn't. Street prostitution is an unsafe practice and it's good that's illegal. Not only is it degrading to women, it's degrading to legit prostitution.

So you're saying it's fine for girls to sell their bodies as long as there is a third party taking the money and watching over things? The girls on the streets do it because they have to. Most people only work because they have to. I bet 1,000,000 people won't wake up tomorrow thinking 'YES! I get to go to work now!'

It's a shame most women has such low self esteem (not all, plenty of women who do these kinds of things not only don't not find what they choose to do degrading, but take pride in doing it also). However, I question if degradation is the key to it all. I think of all that low self esteem women has over their appearence and how they feel men would see them and I point my blame finger primarily at Cosmopolitan. "What's in? What's out? What's hot? What's not? 10 thing guys find sexy." Let the woman be herself and shut the fuck up, okay Cosmo??

It is a shame that some women need to look at magazines such as Cosmo to find out what to wear. I wear what I want to. Sometimes it isn't 'This Seasons Color' but i don't actually care. Some women don't care either, and no man notices. So whats the point?

BTW, I picked Cosmo as it was the first mag to pop in my mind.

Fair Enough.

You people need to check out www.snopes.com more often.
The hunting for bambi thing is a JOKE made to sell porn videos. They put on a cheap "show" for the news to try and convince them that it was real and legal.

And as for upskirt porn, I went to college with a guy who is now a photographer for a large porn website, and we get together and talk from time to time. Of course, his odd line of work generally finds it's way into our conversations.
Upskirt porn is NOT real. Trust me. The women not only know they are being filmed, but they are being paid very well for their troubles.

At 7/20/03 04:41 PM, THE_HULKSTER wrote: Upskirt porn is NOT real. Trust me. The women not only know they are being filmed, but they are being paid very well for their troubles.

What about the people that go out and do it in ametur style, and try to sell it to sites?

At 7/20/03 04:41 PM, THE_HULKSTER wrote: You people need to check out www.snopes.com more often.
The hunting for bambi thing is a JOKE made to sell porn videos. They put on a cheap "show" for the news to try and convince them that it was real and legal.

Why is some stupid little site with no real validity more valid that a news show? lol. I wouldn't exactly get debating information from snopes.com. Heh heh.

This is how it works. They do have hunting for bambi videos. True. But, on the video's site, you can also sign up to do it yourself and "star" in the new videos they churn out for a rather large fee. Also, true. And, this is getting more popular.

And as for upskirt porn, I went to college with a guy who is now a photographer for a large porn website, and we get together and talk from time to time. Of course, his odd line of work generally finds it's way into our conversations.
Upskirt porn is NOT real. Trust me. The women not only know they are being filmed, but they are being paid very well for their troubles.

lol. If it's "not real" then why are men from these sites being prosecuted and sent to prison for it in some states? I realize that there are women who are paid to do it, to credit your friend.....but there are just as many women who aren't and have it happen against their will.

BaKsHi wrote:

And how do they ever find out if they are on the web? This is a topic, that wouldn't go anywhere, because they never know if they get victimized. My point is, it rarely happens, and people can't get arrested because the person taken the pic can never be found. People have to live with it, and spend more money funding our children's education.

*sigh* Um, women do find out they are being victimized all the time. They catch the guy behind them doing it. If you even went to the link I provided, you would see the story of one woman who caught the guy who worked for a site, and he didn't go to prison for it.

Also, police are finding the sites, and are trying to shut them down. True, unfortunately by doing this, they can't find all the women who were victimized. But that doesn't make it any less of a big web business. Also, police are finding more and more of these sites by the guys who are caught "coming foward" about it.

So, because these poor victimized women can't find the guys sometimes, they should "just live with it?" Jeez. I hope you don't feel that way about sexual abuse or rape.

PS. Where the heck did that "children's funds" thing come from? Not only is that not related to this topic in the slightest way, but I didn't even mention it to be able to disagree with it in the first place. @_o'

At 7/19/03 11:39 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

At 7/19/03 08:11 PM, BWS wrote: Sorry ladies, just wanted to butt in and say something. It a relative issue. It is experienced and percieved differently from person A to person B. One can see that it for what it is, and the other, well, could be a neanderthal-man who thinks they ought mimic it. Its just that its a relative issue and therefore has different pshychological effects.

thank you, BWS. please ninja, from what you are saying, it sounds like you think that people with a nontraditional approach to sexuality are "sick" and "wrong", i'm afraid i can never agree with that.

It's not about it being "right or wrong." It's about how it affects people in the long run. Didn't you read all I wrote about that? @_o' If you really did read all my posts, you'd understand my logic on this. Men who get hooked on these fetishes more often than not have their views of sexualilty and women warped, which often causes this to leak into their normal lives.

As in, when you teach some men to view women as animals and get off on their pain, this is dangerous because you can't ensure that they will take their newfound feelings and logic to "the street." Just like the upskirting and spying phenominon. Once this became big on the internet (which was legal, because it was consentual at the time), afterwards we had swarms of men trying to act out their fantasies or contribute to the sites by victimizing innocent women.

Also, it's not just contributing to this particular type of porn. It's the teaching that women are "less than human, and therefore it's OK to hurt or abuse them for your sexual pleasure" that bothers me the most (and both the sites literally teach this exact thing. @_o' Almost word for word in some cases.). When men get off on this and learn this, this can affect how they view women and how they treat women for the rest of their lives (and not just including their spouses or family members).

While the game itself may or may not be "wrong," I was more concerned with this being another of the many internet fetishes that have wound up repeatedly hurting other women as an indirect result. That was my point.
---------------
And, to some men who took this the wrong way, please note that I am not talking about "all men" as being perverts or anything. Sheesh. I'm saying that for you to get turned on by hurting women in the first place is what makes you a threat to other women outside of the "game."

And not all men would be turned on by violence towards women. So, please realize that I am not critizing men in general. Just the ones who like to hurt women "for fun," which I hope doesn't apply to the rest of you. lol. ^_-
---------------
PS. Also, using this same logic you could say that having sex with 14 year olds as a "fetish" is only wrong in "the eye of the beholder." Afterall, who's to decide what's "wrong," right? lol. ^_-

But, personally, though I think sexually enjoying physically hurting another living human being is wrong. My main point was not that. But more about how it affects more people in our society indirectly as a result. Which, has already been proven to be true, and not just through many examples.

1: The "human beeings" as some ppl like to call us, are animals. Evil and smart one (most. both trends can vary tremendously)
2: The fact that woman is hunted this way shows one ting: some men are bored to the extreme.
3: For that paintball thing: If the woman does is by her free will and gets paid good, what is wrong with it?
4: The upskirt stuff is harmless, as long as the womans identeties is kept hidden.
5: Why did I make those numbers anyway.
6: Male hornyness is one of the most powerfull forces in the world.

At 7/20/03 06:23 PM, -PZY- wrote:

2: The fact that woman is hunted this way shows one ting: some men are bored to the extreme.

Or that some men are so pathetic that the only way they can feel good about themselves and their "women getting abilities" is to pay to hurt them and molest them. lol.

3: For that paintball thing: If the woman does is by her free will and gets paid good, what is wrong with it?

Read my previous posts.

4: The upskirt stuff is harmless, as long as the womans identeties is kept hidden.

What?! So, if a woman is sexually abused and it's put on a site, then that's OK as long as they don't give the woman's name? Then, she should be "fine with it?" Um. The problem is that these women are being sexually abused against their wills in the first place. That's not exactly "harmless." From a woman's point of view, it's like a man ripping your clothes off, taking pictures, and then putting them on the internet for sickos to look at. @_o'

I'm just glad that the US's judicial system doesn't work that way. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more men taking advantage of women in this way.

At 7/20/03 06:47 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

4: The upskirt stuff is harmless, as long as the womans identeties is kept hidden.

What?! So, if a woman is sexually abused and it's put on a site, then that's OK as long as they don't give the woman's name? Then, she should be "fine with it?" Um. The problem is that these women are being sexually abused against their wills in the first place. That's not exactly "harmless." From a woman's point of view, it's like a man ripping your clothes off, taking pictures, and then putting them on the internet for sickos to look at. @_o'

I'm just glad that the US's judicial system doesn't work that way. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more men taking advantage of women in this way.

What you don't see or know about is not a threat to you. And these women is not touched, not put a finger on by any perverts. Only see, not touch. And as long as the faces remain unindentified, no harm done. And as long it is only a minor group that does stuff like this, it is not a problem worth fighting.

And in our modern days, I think women should wear pants. It is even more logically than skirts. Men should wear shkirts, for a little bit more room for their stuff.

At 7/20/03 06:56 PM, -PZY- wrote:

What you don't see or know about is not a threat to you. And these women is not touched, not put a finger on by any perverts. Only see, not touch. And as long as the faces remain unindentified, no harm done. And as long it is only a minor group that does stuff like this, it is not a problem worth fighting.

Raping is done also by a "minor group." That point is worthless. Also, the number of men who do this is growing. @_o'

Jeez, though. You seem to have a pretty biased view of women, though, and how they should feel about being sexually violated. @_o' You have to start seeing things from our point of view and the victims' point of view, and not from the point of view of the men who are doing this or those who it just doesn't affect. We shouldn't have to fear being victimized every day of our lives just because the government is slow to make some of these things illegal.

If a tree falls in the forest, it still fell and made a sound. lol. Just because some people aren't there at the time doesn't mean that it didn't happen or that it didn't affected the others who were there.

Also, the "out of site=doesn't affect you" notion doesn't work in many ways. Please read my previous posts.

And in our modern days, I think women should wear pants. It is even more logically than skirts. Men should wear shkirts, for a little bit more room for their stuff.

However, I don't think that's it's right to have women "fearing" wearing skirts in our "modern days," either.

So it should be made illegal for consenting women and men to have sex and shoot paintballs at eachother beause it might make some guy think that raping women is okay? That's bullshit. That's like saying don't let soldiers fire guns because they might think that it's okay to shoot people once they get back home. First of all, this paintball thing isn't rape. Everyone is perfectly willing. I say, if a man wants to pay money to shove a hammer up a woman's nose and she's willing, let him do it. I really doubt that he will then go walking down the street shoving hammers up people's noses. It takes a certain kind of character to commit rape and not everyone who watches porn or has casual sex is going to become a rapist. We can't make everything illegal because of a handful of disturbed and easily influenced people. If we did, there would be no internet, movies, or books. You can't just say that everything involving sex (without a serious emotional relationship), from having it to watching it, is wrong.

"Some people are against porno movies, and I say hey, Ohio, Kentucky, and Iran: what a man and a woman and another woman with a penis and a midget do to a donkey is none of your business!"--Dave Attell.

Sure porn portrays women as objects, but so what? It portrays men as objects too. Not every sexual thought has to have a pile of emotional baggage to go with it. Sure, sex between two people who really love each other is a beautiful thing, but sometimes people just want to fuck, and some like it kinkier than others. As long as all the people involved are willing, I don't think the government should have a right to make it illegal.

At 7/20/03 06:47 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:23 PM, -PZY- wrote:

2: The fact that woman is hunted this way shows one ting: some men are bored to the extreme.

Or that some men are so pathetic that the only way they can feel good about themselves and their "women getting abilities" is to pay to hurt them and molest them. lol.

Yeah, I agree, tis incredibly sad

3: For that paintball thing: If the woman does is by her free will and gets paid good, what is wrong with it?

Read my previous posts.

Your previous posts seem based on one thing, the old monkey see monkey do thing, its your kinda logic which led to people blaming NBK and Doom for columbine as opposed to asking the real questions, like how did kids get those kinds of weapons, I really think thats weak and old, also proven to be irrelevant more than once, do you have anything else to say against it? I really doubt that a guy who would go home and abuse his wife in the first place would be any different had he gone to this pathetic game or not

4: The upskirt stuff is harmless, as long as the womans identeties is kept hidden.

What?! So, if a woman is sexually abused and it's put on a site, then that's OK as long as they don't give the woman's name? Then, she should be "fine with it?" Um. The problem is that these women are being sexually abused against their wills in the first place. That's not exactly "harmless." From a woman's point of view, it's like a man ripping your clothes off, taking pictures, and then putting them on the internet for sickos to look at. @_o'

Yeah I agree with that, its not a victimless crime, its degrading and just because they dont know about it doesnt mean someone they know wont see it

I'm just glad that the US's judicial system doesn't work that way. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more men taking advantage of women in this way.

No, thats just wrong, if rape was made legal, more people wouldnt go out and do it, its not the fear of punishment (which is pretty weak), its morals, and the way you were raised, or if all else fails honour that keeps people good
This argument is used by the government for the prohibition of marijuana which is obviously not working

At 7/20/03 10:17 PM, dudeitsallama wrote: So it should be made illegal for consenting women and men to have sex and shoot paintballs at eachother beause it might make some guy think that raping women is okay? That's bullshit. That's like saying don't let soldiers fire guns because they might think that it's okay to shoot people once they get back home. First of all, this paintball thing isn't rape. Everyone is perfectly willing. I say, if a man wants to pay money to shove a hammer up a woman's nose and she's willing, let him do it. I really doubt that he will then go walking down the street shoving hammers up people's noses. It takes a certain kind of character to commit rape and not everyone who watches porn or has casual sex is going to become a rapist. We can't make everything illegal because of a handful of disturbed and easily influenced people. If we did, there would be no internet, movies, or books. You can't just say that everything involving sex (without a serious emotional relationship), from having it to watching it, is wrong.

lol. Hmmmm. A particular type of character to rape? Like the character that gets off on hurting women?

LOL! Also, army grunts in an entirely different issue. Because they're not teaching the men to "get off" or "enjoy" killing people. If they did, then, yes, that would be dangrous. Don't you think so? Wouldn't teaching them to like killing people just possibly affect how they view other people and how they treat them once they get out of the army?

It's not the action itself. It's how they teach them to perceive the action.

Just as teaching men to get off on or enjoy hurting women. Frankly, if they didn't hurt the women, then I wouldn't care. Like, if it was just normal prostitution. But the fact that they do makes this particular case different.

Teaching men to sexually enjoy shoving a hammer up a woman's nose may get him to want to do that to other women, or hurt them in other ways. Also, if you can get him to sexually enjoy shoving a hammer up a woman's nose, then you have to admit that that must affect how he views women.

Um. And it's not just "some guy." It's many men. And this is a fact. For one example, the whole voyeur and "upskirting" fetishes on the web propelled large masses of men to start doing it themselves on unwilling women. Before, it was done, but not nearly as much.

So, all in all, it is true in how it affects people. However, I can understand an argument about how large the problem could get.

PS. I wasn't saying that men would "rape women" from doing this. Although that is one sad posibility. I'm saying that it could cause them to "abuse" women in many ways (against their will), and affects how they view women. Not just rape.

Sure porn portrays women as objects, but so what? It portrays men as objects too. Not every sexual thought has to have a pile of emotional baggage to go with it. Sure, sex between two people who really love each other is a beautiful thing, but sometimes people just want to fuck, and some like it kinkier than others. As long as all the people involved are willing, I don't think the government should have a right to make it illegal.

Men=the object in control. That's different. lol. But that's not my point here.

This isn't just porn. If you really read about the issue and quotes from the site. You'd see that they are teaching men that it's OK for them to sexually hunt women. Litteraly. One fetish was telling men to hunt women outside of the games. Word for word. @_o' And this sight was saying that women are the animals and men are the hunters. Again, a different image than normal porn, which, I hope you can see is dangerous. In fact, if I can borrow a quote from the man who managed the games, "When I hunt deer, the deer doesn't wear a helmet, so when I hunt a woman, why should she wear protection?" .......Someone needs to tell this guy that women aren't animals. lol. And, can you see how his way of thinking can also be adapted by his customers who get off on the same "sport?"

So, you see, this is a very different issue than normal porn. Because it litterally teaches them to hurt women and that that it's OK. And. more so, it teaches them to enjoy it. Obviously not a good thing.

That's all pretty disturbing, that sort of thing doesn't get a lot of press around here. Thanks for bringing it up.

At 7/21/03 02:07 AM, TheTio wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:47 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:23 PM, -PZY- wrote:

Your previous posts seem based on one thing, the old monkey see monkey do thing, its your kinda logic which led to people blaming NBK and Doom for columbine as opposed to asking the real questions, like how did kids get those kinds of weapons, I really think thats weak and old, also proven to be irrelevant more than once, do you have anything else to say against it? I really doubt that a guy who would go home and abuse his wife in the first place would be any different had he gone to this pathetic game or not

Well, if NBK taught the kids to enjoy killing kids first hand, then, yes, they would be partially at fault. But, they didn't, so that's a different issue.

Also, I do agree that the men who would like this game already have violent or "women issues" or self-esteem/empowerment issues to begin with. ^_^

However, this is dangerous because it teaches them a harmful way to release their agressions and then teaches them that this is OK and, more dangerously, to get sexual enjoyment from it.

They may not have learned to enjoy actually hurting women before they found out about the game or took part in it, though they already may not have liked/respected women or already may have wanted to feel in power around them previously.

I agree that it's not a cause, but it sure as heck is a powerful instigator. That's all I'm saying. ^_^

More importantly, it teaches them that it's OK to do so, which may not have been how they felt before, even though some may have wanted to hurt them. Like, they may have wanted to hurt women, and probably would have, but teaching them that "it's OK" and more so, teaching them to become sexually aroused by it (@_o') is what makes the situation so much worse.

So, while I agree that it doesn't cause the problem itself, I do believe that it makes it worse.

No, thats just wrong, if rape was made legal, more people wouldnt go out and do it, its not the fear of punishment (which is pretty weak), its morals, and the way you were raised, or if all else fails honour that keeps people good
This argument is used by the government for the prohibition of marijuana which is obviously not working

Well, rape's a different issue. Because that is extremely vicious and morally wrong (it takes more of a "unique" mind to do that). But taking a picture up a woman's dress (while still very wrong and abusive) could be seen as less of a "crime" and more of a "prank" by many men, particularly the younger ones. Men who don't do it more from fear of being caught and punished than from how big the punishment is. Like some of the guys defending it on NG as it "not being that big of a deal." Right now, they probably won't do it. But if they found out it was totally legal, based on their previous logic, they might give it a try (again, I think that this would be more of a younger guy thing).

Also, it would at least increase how often the ones who are already doing it would do it.

Everywhere I go now I run into an essay by Ninja Scientist. I think we've established that shooting at women is bad, except if they decide to take the risk and take the cash to get shot at. When you think about it, it's no different than Japanese gameshows like Most Extreme Elimination Challenge. People get broken up and sliced up all over the place on that, and it's reality television like would never be allowed to be made in America.

At 7/21/03 03:20 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/21/03 02:07 AM, TheTio wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:47 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:23 PM, -PZY- wrote:

Well, if NBK taught the kids to enjoy killing kids first hand, then, yes, they would be partially at fault. But, they didn't, so that's a different issue.

Also, I do agree that the men who would like this game already have violent or "women issues" or self-esteem/empowerment issues to begin with. ^_^

However, this is dangerous because it teaches them a harmful way to release their agressions and then teaches them that this is OK and, more dangerously, to get sexual enjoyment from it.

They may not have learned to enjoy actually hurting women before they found out about the game or took part in it, though they already may not have liked/respected women or already may have wanted to feel in power around them previously.

I agree that it's not a cause, but it sure as heck is a powerful instigator. That's all I'm saying. ^_^

More importantly, it teaches them that it's OK to do so, which may not have been how they felt before, even though some may have wanted to hurt them. Like, they may have wanted to hurt women, and probably would have, but teaching them that "it's OK" and more so, teaching them to become sexually aroused by it (@_o') is what makes the situation so much worse.

So, while I agree that it doesn't cause the problem itself, I do believe that it makes it worse.

What the fuck, I pointed out the basis and weakness of your whole argument with a hypothetical, then you explained away the hypothetical and did it again, do you even pay attention to other peoples points or just pick apart their posts into how many times Ninja Scientist can win at the "I'm Right" game

...I think that a man who isnt fucked in the head already, and isnt easily influenced, stable and all played this game (why he would I dont know), he would play it, get over it and that is that. I can agree to the fact that if there is a man who is already fucked up, has a warped view of women and will ultimately turn violent &/or degrading toward them then this may act as a catalyst, but so would prostitution, pornography, sex video games, and their own imagination...you cant kill a hydra by cutting off its heads

Well, rape's a different issue. Because that is extremely vicious and morally wrong (it takes more of a "unique" mind to do that). But taking a picture up a woman's dress (while still very wrong and abusive) could be seen as less of a "crime" and more of a "prank" by many men, particularly the younger ones. Men who don't do it more from fear of being caught and punished than from how big the punishment is. Like some of the guys defending it on NG as it "not being that big of a deal." Right now, they probably won't do it. But if they found out it was totally legal, based on their previous logic, they might give it a try (again, I think that this would be more of a younger guy thing).

Also, it would at least increase how often the ones who are already doing it would do it.

I still stick by the number of people committing a crime wouldnt dramattically rise as the punishment falls, although you could have a point in the people who would already commit the crime doing it more, but thats not really proving your right, thats just a side effect of not having to hide the fact they do it, or them being in prison and unable to commit these wrongs

But, as I am running the risk of sounding pro hunting naked women to then proceed with the groping...I am as against this game as I am pain prostitution, and even more against rape and unwilling sexual dominance

There, hope thats cleared up

At 7/20/03 07:11 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:56 PM, -PZY- wrote:

What you don't see or know about is not a threat to you. And these women is not touched, not put a finger on by any perverts. Only see, not touch. And as long as the faces remain unindentified, no harm done. And as long it is only a minor group that does stuff like this, it is not a problem worth fighting.

Raping is done also by a "minor group." That point is worthless. Also, the number of men who do this is growing. @_o'

Bach! You clearly can't see my point, can you? Raping is totally differnt, as the woman is well aware of it and is beeing touched and gets traumaus afterwards.
But the upskirting is in such a minor scale so wasting huge resourches on it would be really dumb.
The woman does not know it, she is not touched, and she does not get any problems later on, as long as her identety is remained secret. But if the identety is reviald, it is almost as bad as a rape. And since the problem is very small, woman don't need to live in fear for it.

Jeez, though. You seem to have a pretty biased view of women, though, and how they should feel about being sexually violated. @_o' You have to start seeing things from our point of view and the victims' point of view, and not from the point of view of the men who are doing this or those who it just doesn't affect. We shouldn't have to fear being victimized every day of our lives just because the government is slow to make some of these things illegal.

So... what you are saying is that woman are completely nevrotic and weak which can't take a punch at all. And ofcourse it should be illegal, but I think the problem is beeing taken way too serious by certain ppl.

If a tree falls in the forest, it still fell and made a sound. lol. Just because some people aren't there at the time doesn't mean that it didn't happen or that it didn't affected the others who were there.

Yes, but why on earth should you care if it was a normal tree?

Also, the "out of site=doesn't affect you" notion doesn't work in many ways. Please read my previous posts.

It is basiacly how the world works, if not, it would have been a much better place.

And in our modern days, I think women should wear pants. It is even more logically than skirts. Men should wear shkirts, for a little bit more room for their stuff.

However, I don't think that's it's right to have women "fearing" wearing skirts in our "modern days," either.

They can do what they want, but if it is a threat, and they are so afraid, why don't wear pants? And no one is telling you it is illgal to wear pants.

At 7/22/03 11:26 AM, TheTio wrote:

At 7/21/03 03:20 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/21/03 02:07 AM, TheTio wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:47 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 7/20/03 06:23 PM, -PZY- wrote:

What the fuck, I pointed out the basis and weakness of your whole argument with a hypothetical, then you explained away the hypothetical and did it again, do you even pay attention to other peoples points or just pick apart their posts into how many times Ninja Scientist can win at the "I'm Right" game

lol. Jeez, man. Calm down. I'm not trying to play a "I'm Right" game. I'm just trying to argue my point of view, and get your fresher feedback on it. Is that OK?

In any case, I think my point about your comparison to Columbine being weak was a good one. I was just asking for a better one.

...I think that a man who isnt fucked in the head already, and isnt easily influenced, stable and all played this game (why he would I dont know), he would play it, get over it and that is that. I can agree to the fact that if there is a man who is already fucked up, has a warped view of women and will ultimately turn violent &/or degrading toward them then this may act as a catalyst, but so would prostitution, pornography, sex video games, and their own imagination...you cant kill a hydra by cutting off its heads

Well, my point was that don't you think anything that acts as a "catylist" for violence towards women isn't something that our society needs? It's true that pornography, prositution, etc. has been proven to propel violence towards women as well. I agree. However, I was just saying that this game goes one step further by more imediately propelling the violence by starting them off with learning to enjoy hurting women in the first place. Therefore, out of all the forms of "prostitution" today, I find these kind to be the most dangerous. And, therefore, I feel we should at least have these violent types of prostitution illegal. I had no regards to the other types. Afterall, the only thing that bothers me about this isn't even the prostitution or sexual abuse involved. It's the teaching of the physicaly hurting women.

That's all.

I still stick by the number of people committing a crime wouldnt dramattically rise as the punishment falls, although you could have a point in the people who would already commit the crime doing it more, but thats not really proving your right, thats just a side effect of not having to hide the fact they do it, or them being in prison and unable to commit these wrongs

Well, if you even agree that it would cause even a little more cases, then shouldn't it be illegal anyway? It's not going to do any damage by not being illegal. But if you agree that it'll do at least some help by being illegal, then we might as well make it that way. At it'll at least be good for punishing and "rehabilitating" the criminals who do it.

But, I think that was your point in this case, right?

But, as I am running the risk of sounding pro hunting naked women to then proceed with the groping...I am as against this game as I am pain prostitution, and even more against rape and unwilling sexual dominance

There, hope thats cleared up

No prob.^_^